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  1. Well, I think that Jeyne Westerling is at something of a disadvantage in this discussion, cuz Robb's romance with her happened completely "off stage" in the books, so we never saw or were told exactly how and why he fell in love with her (unlike Talisa) One thing I was really hoping for in the show was that they would take the opportunity to show and tell the story of how Robb and Jeyne met and fell in love in detail (it could have been a real storybook romance), but...nope. Instead, they chopped Jeyne and the details of that storyline out altogether, and gave us Talisa. But I'm pretty sure Robb didn't marry Jeyne in the books just to "do the right thing," my understanding is that they truly loved each other. But hey, if you liked the Talisa storyline better, that's cool, that's what this thread is here for, and I think it's great to hear other views.
  2. Yeah, Blackwater was awesome. Also, I agree about Grey Worm and Missandei (even though I think most people disagree with us). In the books, those two characters were fine, but also kind of "just there," but in the show they are a lot more than that, and I like them a lot (both are very serious, responsbile and highly capable people, and both have really similarly messed up personal histories. I think it would be good to see two people who were both slaves for so long finally be able to lead more normal, happy lives, but I wonder if one of them will get crossed off instead...)
  3. Good stuff. How about the scenes where Yoren tells the story of how he came to be in the Night's Watch, and the scene with Jaime and Tyrion discussing Cousin Orson crushing the beetles?
  4. Olly didn't deserve that

    Funny, I don't recall anyone complaining when Jon executed Janos Slynt for doing FAR less than what Olly did (Jon gave Slynt an order, Slynt refused to obey, and Jon executed him even though just before he did so Slynt recanted and said he would obey). But maybe I missed that thread, I guess, where people were maybe complaining that Janos Slynt did not deserve to die. I've seen every episode of Game of Thrones multiple times (probably an average of at least 4 or 5 viewings per episode), and I'm well aware that if you follow Olly's story carefully it's easy to understand why he did what he did, and easy to understand that in his heart he is NOT "evil." But was I surprised when Jon executed him? No, not at all. Jon was raised by Ned to believe even mere deserters from the Night's Watch deserve to be executed (see Season 1, Episode 1), and what Olly did was obviously far worse than mere desertion, it was treason and murder of the Lord Commander, just like what was done by the brothers who killed Jeor Mormont, whom Jon ALSO killed. Olly's story is tragic, to be sure, but what else was Jon supposed to do with him and the other conspirators? Lock them up for the rest of their lives at Caslte Black? Some people would say execution was more merciful, not to mention far more practical (the Night's Watch does NOT have the manpower or resources (including food) to be locking up non-productive people, feeding them and guarding them for decades, particularly in light of the fact that winter is here) Clearly, the conspirators could NEVER be trusted again (including Olly), and I felt the show did a good job of showing that Jon took no pleasure in doing what he did, but felt it was his duty and was necessary.
  5. An interesting possibiilty, that Shireen might burn in the books but without the consent (or possibly even knowledge) of Stannis, and if so then that's an enormous difference between the books and the show.. In fact, if that's how it is in the books (Shireen burns but without Stannis consenting or possibly even knowing), I would have to say that in my mind that would probably be one of the 5 biggest differences between the books and the show (In my view, it radically changes Stannis' overall story, and he's a pretty major character, having had a lot of screen time for four seasons, and an enormous impact on events in Westeros during that time)
  6. Regarding extending the show: Well, I assumed that the showrunners (and just about everyone else involved) love what they are doing, are making good money, and HBO is making good money, so I assumed they would all want that to continue, but if you have information that they only wanted 8 seasons (especially with the last two seasons truncated, no less), I'd definitely be interested to hear about that. Have you actually heard that, or no?.
  7. Very interesting, seriously, but my very strong memory is that in the comments by Dan and/or Dave on HBO after the episode in which Shireen was burned, one of them (Dan or Dave, I'm not sure which) directly stated that GRRM had told them about the burning of Shireen, and that's why they did it. Thus, my understanding is that the burning of Shireen is canon and will be in the books (although, again, it can't happen exactly the same way in the books as it did in the show)
  8. Interesting. I strongly agree that the paper shield was very "convenient" for Davos, no doubt, but I guess once they got up north I wasn't surprised by Stannis' behaivior, cuz Stannis is Stannis. Extremely stubborn (thus, Mance Rayder must burn, just cuz he won't formally "bend the knee"), and highly susceptible to influence from Melisandre (as I recall, it was Melisandre who convinced Stannis to try to re-take Winterfell, telling him she had had visions of herself walking the walls of Winterfell while Bolton banners fell). Regarding the burning of was my least favorite scene in the entire show series, but as I understand it they claim it is canon and going to happen in the books (although it can't happen exactly the same way in the books, of course), so it's hard for me to judge the show too harshly for that (at least, until I finally read the book version) Not saying you're "wrong" about any of that, though, just saying the above is how I viewed it, guess I just chalked it up to Stannis being Stannis. Certainly, Tyrion would have made dramatically different decisions, for example.
  9. Don't think I've heard about this, what was Davos' paper shield? Or maybe I forgot?
  10. I guess we can fill in the blanks with assumptions (based on what happened in the books), but that's not very satisfying. So yeah, I think you're right, it's basically a plot hole, or at least a hanging thread, never explained. Bottom line, to me, is that the show raced through the source material (books) too fast, and left a lot of good stuff on the editing floor that could have been used to extend the show by at least another season or two.
  11. [Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

    Great food for thought, I read it all with interest. I think you're making a lot of assumptions and inferences that may or may not be true, especially about why certain things were or were not written in the White Book, and why or why not Aerys did or said what he did or said, but to respond to it all in detail could take me hours I simply don't conveniently have right now. Also worth noting, I think: My understanding of most of the reason so much of Jaime's pages in theWhite Book are empty is NOT because he is not a very good figher, t's just b/c he didn't DO much over the years, he just hung around King's Landing in times of peach. Bottom line to me is that my STRONG understanding is that Jaime, before he lost his hand, and at the start of AGOT, would have been almost universally hailed as the the best warrior in all of Westeros, given his combination of size, strength, speed and skill. That is my understanding, but I am not going to re-read all the books just for the express purpose of pulling out all the information that supports this. I am, however, just about due for a a full re-read (it's been over 5 years since I last read all the books), so who knows, maybe soon I'll undertake it and keep notes of all the information supporting Jaime as a profoundly lethal and powerful warrior. Let me ask you this, though: At the start of AGOT, how would you rate Jaime's overall value as a warrior in battle, on a scale of 1 to 10, with "1" being terrible, and "10" being absolutely excellent? Cuz my understanding is that Jaime is a "10." Jaime himself tells Brienne (books and show, I believe) that only 4 warriors even Westeros even MIGHT have a chance against him, and it's not just idle bragging, my general recollection is that we are told similar things by other people at other times. My understandin is that Jaime was an absolute beast at Whispering Woods, BY FAR the most lethal fighter on either side. Robb won't fight him, no way, he knows perfectly well Jaime would defeat him, no problem, and openly admits it. So, what's your rating of Jaime on a scale from 1 to 10 at the statt of AGOT? I'm quite curious. And if Jaime was anything but a 10, who would you put ahead of him at that time? In any event, though, as far as I'm concerned this has been fun conversation, and I thank you for it.
  12. [Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

    Ironically enough, as I said earlier, up above, I think we actually are not too far apart from each other on this. My understanding is that we both agree that most young males are full grown by 17 or 18, and that some grow past those ages, but it is rare. Not sure why this aspect of the conversation is continuing. I never denied Tywin wanted a VS sword for House Lannister. And he got one. But in my opinion, that has little or nothing at all to do with why he gave which sword to each person (Jaime and Joffrey). Either way, House Lannister gets a VS sword. Even if Jaime was built like Joffrey and had rec'd Widow's Wail, and Joffrey had been built like Jaime and rec'd Oathkeeper, House Lannister would have gotten a VS sword. Again, I have never denied Tywin wanted VS for House Lannister, yet MUCH of what you have written and quoted seems heavily focused on that issue. To me, the question we were discussing was WHY Tywin gave each of them the sword he did, and merely stating that Tywin wanted VS for House Lannister does not answer that question, cuz either way, House Lannister gets a VS sword.. (For some reason, I cannot break the rest of what you wrote into smaller chunks for responding, even though I tried numerous times at multiple places, so I'll have to respond to each of what I believe are the 3 main issues in turn as follows:) (1) Regarding what I said about Widow's Wail: I'm not going to argue about this issue anymore after this post. My words speak for themselves. You previously claimed I called WW a "tiny sword," and even put the words in quotes, but you cannot produce that, cuz I never said it. Now, as I understand it, you are claiming I believed WW was a "child's tool." Yes, I AM denying I ever believed WW was a "child's tool." Rather than picking and choosing different words from what I actually said (e.g., "tiny sword," "child's tool"), why don't you just focus on what I DID actually say? I really don't understand that. Now, I accept your quote of what I did say about WW being much smalller than Oathkeeper without even going back to check, b/c that IS consistent with my belief. As I already said above, the relative masses of WW and Oathkeeper DO make WW "much smaller." Do you remember me pointing out, up above, that Oathkeeper is one and a half times the mass of WW? Yes, that makes WW "much smaller" than Oathkeeper. "2/5ths" may not seem like much less than "3/5ths,", but actually, proportionally, IT IS. "3/5ths" is one and a half times the mass of "2/5ths," which, proportionally is a huge difference. Do you remember me taking about a 150 pound man and a 225 pound man? Okay, the ratio is THE SAME. And is a 150 pound man "much smaller" than a 225 pound man? Yes, absolutely, the 150 pound man is "much smaller," as I think anyone would agree, but that does not make the 150 pound man "tiny" or a "child" in size. (2) Regarding Jaime being named to the Kingsguard: Great stuff, I enjoyed re-reading all of that, but I see nothing in there that contradicts my belief that Jaime's appointment to the Kingsguard was meritorious or that he was in fact worthy, and I do not recall anything , EVER, in books or show suggesting that he was unworthy or that he lacked the merit. Note that I never denied Aerys would be pleased to deprive Tywin of Jaime, and note also that while I enjoyed reading the quotes you provided, that is JAIME'S POINT OF VIEW, not Aerys'," which, as we know from numerous other examples in GRRM's work, can be critical to keep in mind. (Indeed, it's part of the genius of GRRM's work, showing how different characters often have very different perspectives from other characters on the exact same events.) In all likelihood, we will never know for sure exactly what considerations Aerys took into account when he named Jaime to the KG. For all we know, MAYBE Aerys had the open seat on the KG, asked several of them who they would recommend, and to a man they recommended Jaime based on pure merit, after which Aerys thought to himself "Wow, nice, and as a side benefit I get to deprive Tywin of his heir." Or maybe Aerys didn't even think THAT. We'll never know, cuz we don't have Aery's POV or internal monologue on it, but my understanding is that jaime Lannister was quite likely the baddest 16 year old that ever lived in Westeros, cuz he was the youngest KG ever, and it is completely consistent with LOTS of other information we are given about Jaime and his fighting ability in numerous other places. (3) Finally, regarding Jon and Joffrey. I think lots of stuff is getting mixed and mashed together here. In my last post, I tried to separate the issues so they could be isolated and discussed with more clarity, making comments about "book-Joffrey," "show-Joffrey," "book-Jon," and "show-Jon," but now, I think, with respect, you seem to have mixed and mashed it all back together again. I have enjoyed our conversation on this subject, but at this point I think anything else I add would be merely repeating other things I have already said, which I'm guessing you don't want to re-read, and I know I don't want to re-write. But hey, it's cool. I have enjoyed our conversation, and I respect you as a thoughtful and detailed contributor here, who has made many good points along the way. I actually think we agree on more than you seem to think we agree on, but there are some things we continue to disagree on and I don't think we will resolve them at this point, so I'm just going to leave it at that.. Still, though, it's been intellectually stimulating conversation, and I thank you for it.
  13. [Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

    It is possible that if Tywin was part of this conversation, he would tell us the truth is some combination of what we are saying. I do not dispute what you are saying about Tywin wanting a VS sword for House Lannister, and it is logical to assume Tywin would want the bigger and grander sword to go to House Lannister, but that does not disprove the things I am saying, all of which I stand by. I think we're at a point where the "correct" answer in Tywin's mind COULD be (a) what I am saying, or (b) what you are saying, or (c) some combination of what we are saying, and we can't know for sure which it is unless one of us is able to produce highly specific canon information. I do not claim to be able to do that easily or offhand, and am not going to spend the time it would take trying to track it down. If you've got information proving you are right and I am completely wrong (even given the possibility that that we are both partially right) then I would be interested in reading it. As I said, I have no problem discussing books and show, but we KNOW that the books and show contradict each other in certain ways, and I think we have to be careful about that. Let me give you an example. The books give us certain information about Joffrey at 14, and that's fine, but we CANNOT extrapolate that information to conclude that show-Joffrey at 18 years of age would be something different from how we SAW show-Joffrey at 18 years of age. In the show, we SEE Joffrey at 17 and 18 years of age, and he s NOT tall or powerfully built. We are told (in the Cersei/Tyrion conversation I mentioned) that show-Joffrey was 17 at the Battle of Blackwater, as I strongly recall, and he is a very physically unimposing slender, boyish, figure. When he dies (Purple Wedding), very likely at 18 years of age, we SEE him, and he looks...the same as before, far as I could tell. I guess it's possible that in the books Joffrey might theoreically have grown into a large strong man by the age of 18 (of course we'll never know, cuz he died). but we KNOW that is not true of show-Joffrey, cuz we SAW him at 18. A lot of what you wrote there I responded to above, but your last sentence which says "with Joffrey at an age where he would have started to show bulk realistically speaking, but didn't because he's playing an aged up lanky boy of 14," please know my understanding is that is simply incorrect. My understanding is that at the Battle of Blackwater in the show, we are told Joffrey is 17, and that was Season Two (it is either flat out said or necessarily implied, cuz otherwise Cersei and Tyrion's conversation is irrational; why would they be comparing Joffrey at 14 or 15 or 16 to Jaime at 17?) My very strong understanding is that Jaime earned his Kingsguard position based on pure merit. I suppose it's possible that, by happy coincidence (from Aerys' point of view) it also deprived Tywin of his oldest son, but I cannot recall any suggestion in books or show that Jaime Lannister was anything other than fully worthy of his Kingsguard position at 16, and that that was not only remarkable in the history of Westeros, but actually unprecedented. Cersei and Tyrion were not talking about Jaime's and Joffrey's "character," they were talking about their fighting prowess and ability to protect themselves on a battlefield. To me, that was obvious. As I've basically said, Cersei was terrified that Joffrey was going to die, and when Tyrion mentioned Jaime it was NOT b/c Cersei believed Jaime had better character that she objected to what Tyrion said, it was b/c any comparison of Jaime's and Joffrey's fighting skills on a battlefield (both at the age of 17) would be absurd. I'm pretty sure the reason Cersei was afraid Joffrey was going to die at the Battle of Blackwater was NOT b/c Cersei thought Joffrey was lacking in character, it was because he was a small, weak and badly untrained "fighter," all in direct contrast to glorious Jaime (or whatever word they used), Interesting theory. I believe otherwise. If you have specific information, I would be very interested to read it. Let's try to clear up what I think is a misunderstanding about what you previously said. Here's a copy and paste from your comment last Wednesday "But the extra 5fth went into width and mass rather than length." I suppose I took that statement to mean you were saying the two swords were the same length, If I misunderstood, that's unfortunate, and I apologize. For my part, however, I will be VERY surprised if you can direct me to where I allegedly said Widow's Wail is a "tiny sword" (which you not only said I "misrepresent," but you actually put quotes on it), cuz even though I'm not going to go back and re-read every word of my lengthy posts on this subject, I'll be stunned if I said WW is a "tiny sword," most notably cuz it's NOT TRUE. Needle is a tiny sword, MUCH smaller and lighter than even Widow's Wail, and I will be shocked if I called WW "tiny." At most, WW is an average sized sword which Joffrey (a physically weak and undersized male of 18 at the time) was able to easily swing about with one hand at his wedding shower. You claim Oathkeeper is wasted on Jaime, but despite your claim, note that Tywin did in fact give Oathkeeper to Jaime, and certainly Jaime did not say "Thanks anyway, Dad, but I just can't use that thing, I've only got one hand." Then he gives it to Brienne before we see him using it in any way. Again, Jaime is a very strong man, and from what I saw of it I think Jaime could use Oathkeeper. Further, IF there is any video of Brienne using it one-handed (say, during her fight with the Hound), or a mention of such a thing in the books, then I will consider that conclusive proof that Jaime could use it one-handed, too. It is very reasonable to assume that book-Jaime and show-Jaime regained their size and strength after being released from captivity. VERY reasonable. Indeed, I can assure you for a fact (as a long time fitness and strength enthusiast) that it is FAR easier to regain size and strength you once had but lost than it is to gain it in the first place. FAR easier. it's not even close. An extremely poweful man who lifts heavy weights regularly might take 10 years to reach a certain strength level, then take a year off and atrophy dramatically, but if he resumes his strength training it won't take him 10 years to get back to where is was again, no way. In all likelihood, he could probably regain it in 6 months or less, depending on nutrition and other factors (there are physical, biological reasons for this that I am not going to get into, but I guarantee it is true) Regarding the rest here, as I've said above, we cannot reasonably extrapolate book infomation into the show in a way that contradicts what we are obviously and indisputably seeing on the t.v. screen in front of us. In the show, by Season 2 or 3, Joffrey and Jon ARE both almost definitely full grown. I note from your post that you and I seem to actually be pretty close on at least one thing: Most males are full grown by 17 or 18, and while some may grow beyond those ages, it's rare. Well, show-Joffrey is 17 in Season 2 and likely 18 at the Purple Wedding, and Jon is even older (Jon is probably 19, I think, by Season 2, and probably 22 or 23 by Season 7, at which time he looks tthe same size to me as Season One, which is not surprising, cuz Kit Harrington is not growing, so far as I know. Show-Joffrey, by Seasons 2 and 3, is not merely an aged up 14 year old lanky boy, his show-age IS 17. But it's still anothery year (Season 3) when we see Joffrey with Widow's Wail (at 18 years of age), at his wedding shower, and he looks completely she same to me. I suppose it is possible that a person may dislike the fact that the show chose older actors to play Jon (Kit Harrington) and Joffrey (Jack Gleeson), but I don't think that means we can fairly assume that show-Joffrey or show-Jon are actually bigger than what we are obviously seeing on the t.v. screens in front of us. Rather, they are what they are. IF book-Jon ever grows to have a tall and heavy build, that will be an inconsistency between books and show, plain and simple, and it won't be the first (show-Robert, as I understand it, is MUCH shorter than book-Robert, even though, as with NCW and Jaime, I have no complaints about the casting of Mark Addy. I thought Addy did a great job, I just wish the show runners had given him about four to six thick books to stand on while he filmed his standing scenes, which would have been EASY to do. Or "elevator shoes" to give him 3 to 5 more inches.) To my memory, I did not dispute or contradict anything you said about females or a comparison of young males to young females on these issues. Regarding the rest: I stand by everything I have said about my empirical observations. I am not basing my views on a few young guys I once knew here and there, I am basing it on hundreds of young males in the age range I specified while I was roughly in that same age range myself (in schools). Bottom line: Book-Joffrey MIGHT have grown subtsantially larger, but we will never know (cuz he died at such a young age). Show-Joffrey was almost definitely full grown (at 18 years of age) when he died, and he was NOT tall or large even though he was almost definitely full grown. Book-Jon might grow tall and large, but if he does it will contradict the show, cuz show-Jon is almost DEFINITELY full grown (my goodness, by Season 6 he must be at least 22 or 23), and he is NOT tall or large (a person might dislike the fact that an approximately 5'8" actor, by my estimate, is portraying a 22 or 23 year old Jon Snow, but that is what we are being given, and I have no problem at all with Kit Harrington) Finally, note also that I believe medieval type weapons WERE (and logically are) sized to their wielder, roughly speaking. Show-Jon could never realistically wield Ice in battle, it's too big for him. Can you imagine him wearing it in a scabbard at his side? It would drag along the ground next to him, and I believe even a sword the size of Oathkeeper would be too big for Jon too, for similar reasons.
  14. [Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

    Great, thoughtful conversation, I enjoyed reading it all. Here are my thoughts: Tywin didn't size Oathkeeper to a Lord of CR, or Widow's Wail to the "king," Oathkeeper was made for Jaime Lannister, and Widow's Wail was made for Joffrey Baratheon, specifically. Although I'm a huge fan of NCW as Jaime (couldn't imagine anyone else playing him), Jaime is actually much bigger and stronger in the books than in the show. It was Jaime's combination of size, strength, speed and skill which made him, when he had two hands, the deadliest warrior in Westeros. A few others were bigger and/or stronger (not many; as I recall, we are specifically told this in the books) and some might have been quicker and/or more skilled, but when you get two guys in full armor wielding battlefield weapons (as opposed to rapiers, for example, in a fencing match), Jaime's combination and 'total package" were better than anyone else in Westeros. Quite simply, when he had two hands Jaime Lannister was the baddest man alive. And that's the man Oathkeeper was made for, not just a future Lord of CR who could, theoretically, be someone totally unsuited to wield Oathkeeper in the future. Widow's Wail, on the other hand, was made for Joffrey, who IS NOT the physical specimen Jaime is/was, and never would have been even if he had lived. In addition to information on Jaime and Joffrey in the books, and in addition to what we can obviously see just by looking at at show-Jaime (a full grown man, albeit not at book-Jaime levels) and show-Joffrey (not much more than a slender boy in build, even at 17 or 18 years of age when he died), consider the exchange in the show between Tyrion and Cersei about Joffrey and Jaime right before the Battle of Blackwater. I can't recall the exact words, but Cersei is upset cuz Tyrion wants Joffrey on the front lines to inspire troops, Cersei is opposed, Tyrion says something like "Joffrey is 17, and Jaime was already in battles by that age" (or was a great warrior or something), and Cersei basically says something like "But Jaime was glorious at 17, Jofrrey is nothing like him," or words to as similar effect, and Tyrion agrees. (Note also that Jaime was the youngest member of the Kingsguard EVER, at 16. Truly remarkable.) Look at it this way, and ask yourself this: If for some bizarre reason Jaime had been King and Joffrey had been Lord of CR, do you really believe Tywin would have given Jaime Widow's Wail, and the much slighter and slender Joffrey Oathkeeper? I don't, not for one second. Jaime is Tywin's son, and MUCH more well suited to wield a large broadsword in battle than Joffrey, and their titles don't affect that at all, in my opinion. Also, I'm not saying you're wrong (cuz I'm not positive), and I respect and appreciate the specific information, but where are you getting the information that Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are the same length? Even if it's book-canon, I find it hard to believe that it's show-cannon. I'd have to re-watch various scenes VERY carefully, but I find it hard to believe the Widow's Wail we saw at Joffrey's wedding shower is the same length as the sword Brienne used to fight Sandor. Now, the relative masses you give might be correct (3/5ths and 2/5ths)...but think about what that means. From one perspective, "3" doesn't seem like all that much a bigger number than "2" (they are only one number apart), but actually "3" is one and a half times"2." That means that if these numbers are correct, Oathkeeper is one and a half times the mass of Widow's Wail, and to me, that's quite a difference. Consider two men, one who weighs 150 pounds, and the other who weighs 225. The ratios are the same as what you cite for Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper, but are the men even remotely close in size? No, not even remotely. One is well below average size, and the other is well above average size, and the gap between them is fairly huge. I am fine with discussing both the books and the show (some people, I think try to rigidly separate the discussions) but some of what we are talking about here can only apply to the show, cuz we simply are not given regular updates about everyone's height and weight in the books (as years go by, and the kids age and grow), but we CAN see, for examples, Joffrey at 17 and 18 in the show, or Jon at what must be 19 or 20 in Season 6 (indeed, in the books they have not yet even attained these ages, and Joffrey never will) And here's what I see: Jon Snow does not have the physical size or strength to wield a greatsword like Ice (I'd be shocked if Kit Harrington is more than 5'8"), and never will. Joffrey did not have the size or strength to wield even Oathkeeper, and never will (or would have, even if he had lived). Regarding the growth of young men: In my opinion, the vast majority of boys are fully grown by 17 (some by 16). I myself had my full height by 17, and I am above average in height. SOME boys grow until 18 or beyond, but it's fairly rare. I knew ONE guy who grew until he was 19 (which surprised me, cuz when we were both 17 he was probably 3 or maybe even 4 inches shorter than me, but he coninued to grow, and by the time we were 19 he was almost exactly my height; by the time he was 18 and 19, he was the ONLY guy I personally knew who was still growing, and I knew a lot of guys.). But that's it. I don't personally know ANY boys who grew until they were 20 or older. Yes, I do know they exist (I'm a huge sports fan, and sometimes college athletes are still growing at 19 or 20, or even beyond, especially basketball players), but this is very, very rare, in my strong opinion. In sum, between the ages of 14 and 25, I knew HUNDREDS of boys and young men my age (and a little bit older and younger), and in my opinion at least 98% of them had their full height before they turned 18. Bottom line, in my opinion: Joffrey was never physically fit to wield Oathkeeper (or any other sword that size) and never would have been, which is why Tywin gave him the much smaller (mass-wise, at a bare minimum) Widow's Wail. But hey, I view all this as friendly conversation (not an argument, or even a debate), and I hope you do too, and if you've got specific specs on Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, that would be really cool.
  15. [Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

    Wow, great stuff, highly specific information, thanks. I guess it makes sense that Widow's Wail isn't TOO much smaller than Oathkeeper. After all, Joffrey was not exactly a little kid, just not a full grown man.