Lord Stannis-The True King

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About Lord Stannis-The True King

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  • Birthday 02/17/1989

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  1. "The narrative is pointing away from your interpretation" is itself an interpretation of the material being presented. I disagree with your thesis and gave various points that challenge your interpretation of that material. You seem content not to confront these points in an open dialog. I won't push you any further. I enjoy a good discussion but I can tell that's not what you're looking for. Also, King Stannis Baratheon did die hero. In fact I spent a great deal of time explaining that to you in another thread that you didn't feel like responding to. If that is a topic you are interested in discussing I would ask you to reply in the Stannis' vs Danny thread. I would be happy to hear your thoughts on the subject and challenge any assertions you have to the contrary.
  2. The facts that I was referring to were in my very large quote above. If I am understanding you correctly, you are choosing to accept a voice over as non-biased factual information not open to interpretation over your own opinion based on the facts that the series presents, simply because you deem information conveyed in a voice over as more important than the conclusions you can draw from the actual events. If that is your perspective than there really is no point in discussing anything. You have turned off your brain and made yourself incapable of thinking critically or developing a rational opinion. I will however mention an alternate possibility for this voice over. It could be to walk the audience through what they are seeing. I know many people who have watched the whole series only once as each episode comes on. Many of them are fuzzy in details and what characters are connected to which others, especially if we've never seen them before (Rhaegar). My mother for example didn't understand the context of the Tower of Joy revelation or who Rhaegar even was. Explaining the history of the series to a casual fan is beyond exhausting. This information was presented in this format to allow casual fans to more easily follow the story. Now on to the content of Bran's little voice over. It seems you are taking everything he says as abject unbiased fact. I really don't see how you can. He sees the past. That is true. However, it has been clearly established that he only sees one piece at a time. He's not omnitiant. He doesn't know all. Only what he sees in the order he sees it. That makes him fallable. He can say one thing based on the events he's seen only to later understand he misinterpreted those events based on a lack of information. For example, let's say in the future the three eyed Raven looks back and sees Joffry's coronation. He would say that Joffry is the King. Only later he sees his true parantage and realizes that is false. Everything is open to interpretation. Bran saying that Jon is the true King exemplifies this fact. He (as far as we know and have been shown) has not seen anything of Robert's Rebellion or the events over the centuries that led to it. He has no context to draw from but that which Bran had. Which is very little. I would suggest you think more about what is presented to you. Crittical thinking is a valuable asset in storytelling. As is the unreliable narrator.
  3. I am open to this discussion. All the info I have discussed is present in the TV Show (I actually haven't read the books). How is Robert's Rebellion being undermined? And more specifically, how do you interpret these facts differently to arrive and your "interpretation". No sarcasm here, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion. P.S. - I'm glad you've finially decided to respond to me. I was very disappointed that you decided not to converse in the Danny vs Stannis thread.
  4. The lie is that Rhaegar Kidnapped and raped Lyanna? How is that a lie? To lie one must know the truth and purposefully decieve. No one knew any different and there were very good reasons to think she was kidnapped. Have you even read this thread? This has all been discussed before. The poor dialog choice I refer to is the use of the world "lie" in this context. The only lie present is Rhaegar's lie of omition when he just ran off with another woman. Everyone else was just reacting to the situation. I'm just going to quote myself here. "First off, the rebellion was not based on a lie. Lyanna disappeared. She was engaged to Robert and she disappeared with Rhaegar. Her brother went to King's landing and demanded the King release Lyanna. He was arrested. His father came to King's landing at the King's command and they were both burnt alive in the throne room without trial. The King then commanded Jon Aryn to surrender both Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark for execution. What the fuck are people supposed to think!!!!! Robert didn't lie. He had very good reason to believe Rhagar kidnapped his fiance'. Compound that with the Mad King burning people alive for no reason and threatening the populus and you have a rebellion. Futhermore, in digging deeper you will find that the Rebellion was not only a long time coming, but a natural reaction to perpetuated abuse at the hands of Targarians monarchs. Put simply, the problem with Targarian rule is systemic. Their incestuous practices breed madness. It's a diseased bloodline. They are either willfully sadistic or woefully incompetent in letting the incest practice pervail and subjecting their people to even the possibility of an insane monarch (and there have been many "Each time a Targarian is born the gods flip a coin"). If these King's were good Kings they would have safeguarded their people's future by outlawing the practice. They either liked the idea or didn't care enough to stop it. Either way they failed. Moreover, they lost their right to the throne when the people became strong enough to push back and say "No more!". No more needless massaceres. No more innocent lives put at risk. Robert was not a great King but he freed the people from tyranny. He kept them safe and happy for 20 years. Stannis sacrificed everything he had to save the people. His life, his family's life, his army and his House. He was selfless. All Rhagar could think of is his love. Not realizing at all the political ruin it would bring. His duty was to the kingdom as a whole, to the people, his wife and his children. And Jon Snow? He's making the same mistakes his ancestors did!!! He just fucked his Aunt!!!! If he were to take the throne. He MIGHT be a good King (I don't think so, but that's another argument all together). But even if he was can you say the same for his children? Or that he himself won't succomb to madness? Aries II wasn't always crazy. Who knows when or if it could present it's self. The Kingdom could be at the mercy of another madman in twenty years. No. The Targarians lost any claim they had. The true King bears the name Baratheon."
  5. Then where is the "lie"? Who "lied" and about what? It's just poor dialog. It implies intent and ownership of intent when there is none to be had. There was a clear chain of events that led to the Rebellion and nowhere in there is a "lie". There is just obfuscation perpetrated by the Targarians.
  6. I've been asking myself the same question. One of the shows biggest mistakes was killing off the Martell's. To put it frankly, Dorne might just be fucked. They will need to either instate a new Royal family (that will likely start a civil war) or find another Martell bastard (preferable one not complicit in the murder of the Prince). But, even with the second option you're likely to have much competition. Given how Dorne treats their bastards and the public acceptance of liberal sex practices, there are likely many Martell bastards waiting for a chance to grab power. This could also lead to a civil war. There really are no happy outcomes for Dorne, short of finding a hidden member of the Royal house. They deserved so much better than this.
  7. Agreed. It would be poetic Justice. Robert's revenge from beyond the grave. The child Cersei never wanted. The true King taking back the throne she stole.
  8. Renly was a traitor about to wage war on his own people just because he didn't like his brother and wanted his crown. Treason is worthy of execution. He got what he deserved same as Visaerys. Their own actions led them to their deaths. If only he had joined Stannis they could have liberated the Kingdom together. Truly a shame.
  9. It is true that Stannis had a duty to his daughter. He also had a duty to his people. As King he had to consider the bigger picture and take his own feelings out of the equation. If he hadn't, literally all of Westeros would have died. I don't think you understand the strength that took. Stannis lost his daughter, and his life and his house (until Gendry is revealed to be the true born son of Robert and Cersei). He sacrificed it all for his people. So they might live. So Westeros could have a chance at defeating the White Walkers. He was noble and strong. He did what had to be done. What no one else could do. He protected the realm. It only cost him everything he had to give. Selfless.
  10. People just aren't very observant. It's cause and effect. I always saw Stannis as the foil for Ned Stark. One of my favorite scenes that describes this perfectly is in the season 1 episode Bealor. The conversation between Aemon Targarian and Jon Snow. Maester Aemon asks Jon if he knows why the Night's Watch can have no wives and father no children. "So they will not love. LOVE IS THE DEATH OF DUTY." He says that given the choice most men would prioritize their family over their duty to the realm. He then asks what Jon thinks his father would do. Jon replies that his father would always do what is right. No matter what. Aemon says that his father is "one man in ten thousand". "Most of us are not so strong. What is honor campared to a woman's love? What is duty compared to the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother's smile?" "We're all human. And we all do our duty when there's no cost to it. Honor comes easy then. Yet, sooner or later, in every man's life there comes a day when it is not easy. A day when he must choose!" As we all know Ned Stark was considered an honorable man. He supported Stannis as the heir to the Iron Throne because he WAS the heir. But when he had to choose between his duty and his family he chose his family. He falsely confessed to treason and proclaimed Joffry the true King plunging the seven kingdoms into a civil war that still hasn't ended. All to save his two daughters. All the lives lost in this conflict to save two people. In the end his love was the death of his duty. Stannis had a similar choice to make. To spare his daughter at the expense of the kingdom or to sacrifice her to ensure it's future and save countless lives in the process. He chose Duty. Stannis Baratheon was that one man in ten thousand Measter Aemon referenced. He loved Shireen. She was possibly the only person he ever loved and he still chose his duty. Why? Because he was King. And a King has a greater responsibility to his people than to his family. A King must be selfless to be effective. And Stannis is the only truly selfless character in the whole series.
  11. Sorry for the double post. I forgot to reply/quote.
  12. Ok. Yes. Big difference here. I'll go point by point. 1. Kinslayer Stannis killed his brother. True. But, people forget that Renly committed treason by stealing his brother's banner men and advancing his inferior claim to the throne. Stannis gave him the opportunity to surrender, and even offered to name Renly his heir. He refused. The punishment for treason is death. Stannis was within his rights by all the laws of gods and men to kill Renly and take back his banner men. Not only that it was his duty to do so. Not just in service to the war and the liberation of the kingdom from tyrannical Lannister rule, but to protect the lives of the Baratheon bannermen on both sides. He executed one traitor and saved both sides from a needles bloody conflict. Stannis sacrificed Shireen. He also saved the world. He sacrificed the one person he ever truly loved to postpone winter. This allowed the Starks to take back and unify the North and it gave the realm time to prepare a defense strategy against the White Walkers. Had Stannis not taken this action winter would only have gotten worse. His army was completely unable to move. His men froze and starved. Yet a season later the Starks made the same trip unimpeded by snow. Jon Snow fought at Winterfell in the MUD when Stannis fought in the ICE. Stannis was selfless. He sacrificed everything he had to protect the realm at the expense of his life, his men's life, his family and his house. He did so not because he wanted to but because he was King and it was his duty to do so. No other single character is that important. Without King Stannis, everybody would have died. The dead would have run over an undefended and divided North (the first best defense) and by the time anyone in the south understood what was happening they would be under siege. King Stannis Baratheon is a hero. As far as Daenerys goes she watched her brother die as a bystandard. She isn't really responsible for his death but she didn't stand in the way either. Visaerys and Drogo are far more responsible for this event transpiring. 2. Justice Oh boy. Let's take two examples here. Stannis defeating Mance Raider's army and Daenerys defeating the Lannister army. Both Stannis and Daenerys won decisive victorys and wanted the defeated army to join their cause. Stannis offered the free folk full pardons and land titles south of the wall in exchange for their help in taking Winterfell. Mance Rayder refused. Mance Rayder was a deserter from the Night's Watch and was sentenced to death as is the law in Westeros. Stannis executed him. One man. He then went on to save the lives of every wildling North of the wall. His ships and sailors were used to evacuate Hardholm. They refused to fight for him and he still saved all of their lives and their family's lives and executed ONE man condemned by law. Danerys gave her prisoners a single ultimatum. "Join me or Die." And proceeded to burn everyone who refused to join her ranks even wiping out an entire Noble house. I'll leave you to decide which is more Just. Beyond this one very fair comparison, we have Daenerys crusifying hundreds of people in response to an equal attrocity. What is the old adage? Two wrongs don't make a right. Some of the people she crusified even fought against the initial action. Stannis has nothing like this in his past to compare. That says it all right there.
  13. I'm far more interested in her reunion with Arya. I've been waiting five seasons for that!
  14. Does anyone else miss Salladhor Saan? I've been waiting for him to come back. Maybe Davos can convince him and his pirate allies to fight the Greyjoy navy.
  15. I completely agree with your assessment. I have long held the belief that Gendry's mother is actually Cersei. He could be the black haired child she had with Robert. Given a different name and hidden away by herself or Varrys. That would make him the True King as Robert's legitimate heir. A true Baratheon. Varrys could very well be strategically placed to provide proof of this. After all, he and Tyrion have started to see how completely unstable Daenerys is. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they eventually turn on her after seeing that she is exactly like Cersei. The two mad Queens, mirror images. The seeds were planted this last season. You can only cousil a monarch not to murder people so many times before you ask yourself if there isn't someone better suited for the job.