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About thewolfofStarfall

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  1. She is the most self-righteous character I have ever seen in my life. Daenerys claims to have loved a man who had brutally murdered, raped and enslaved god knows how many men, women, and children for fun, supported his "campaign" to get her precious chair. Daenerys also things she has the right to torture a human being to death because aforementioned genocidal rapist is killed most likely due to his own immense stupidity. Seriously, what the fuck? Dany had absolutely no place to be torturing nor condemning Miri for allegedly killing Rhaego when she had loved and supported a man who has killed and enslaved thousands of children who ha already been born under his regime. If Dany was so concerned about "justice", why didn't she tie one of the remaing Dothraki to the pyre? Perhaps use him as a warning for the Dothraki to stop being evil pieces of shit? She has already done this for the slavers. I'm just playing devil's advocate because she has no business torturing anyone. So can you give me a few reasons to what's so great about her? Dany isn't one of those characters where people like her as a villain because they find her interesting or funny. People legitimately admire her, and I don't see much to admire. Please mention something other than freeing slaves, because she had burned her own slave and didn't have much of probably with slavery, before she started her "abolitionist" campaign. Not to mention she eventually turns their cities into living hell. This obviously won't change my opinion because ironically I used to like Dany when I first started watching the show, but then I woke the hell up. But please share!
  2. Arya kills people who derseve to die for the safety of society. I don't support the death penalty in real life, however in the context of a fictional world with no law enforcement, what Arya is doing (besides killing Daeron) seems pretty reasonable to me. On the other hand Dany thoroughly enjoys torturing people if she believes they somehow derseve to be tortured. That's not normal. Nothing separates her behavior from Joffey's who also genuinely believes his victims derseve to suffer. Dany is self righteously cruel. Arya is not. Despite this Arya gets a bad rep because of her violene, whereas Dany's main criticism just comes from being entitled and naive. This honestly makes no sense to me. For instance, the producers D&D claimed Arya fans should be concerned for her chracter, However, in another episode recap they claimed Dany "was not her father", and that she was "ruthless like most Targaryens"......even though she has comitted the same acts of her father and beyond. Futhermore, being ruthless is not normal, it means that individual lacks a conscience. For instance, Dany can torture people without even thinking about it afterwards. Arya has showed no interest in tormenting people, even though the people she kills were ruthless torturers themselves. Any thoughts?
  3. The wildings may not actually be First Men. @Crowfood's Daughter had a n interesting thread on this from a while back . If the wildlinsg aren't First Men how does this affect the historic parallels between the invasions of Britain and Westeros? Here's what I think: The Children of the Forest=Brythonic Celts Wildliings= Gaelic Celts/Picts who become the known as the Scots past Hadrian's Wall (Even though the COFT were they're before the wildlings, I think the parallels still make sense) First Men=Romano-Brythonic because the First Men (Romans) interbred with the ancient Britons (Children of the Forest). They also built the Wall to sepetae themselves from the Scots, but more importantly the Others. The North=Wales Everyone else in Westeros: The Andals=Anglo-Saxon (Both the First Men and the Andals share similarities to the Anglo-Saxons) The Targaryens- Normans and Ptolemys Rhoynar-Not entirely sure. Could be inspired by the Ripuari Franks and the Egyptians. Theres a bit a of mix and match of similarities and differences between the real life parallels, so nothing is clear cut. What do you guys think? Also, I think
  4. Well I agree with this. Its impossible for me to force anyone to believe in a particular moral code nor do I want to, but that doesn't mean mine is less legitimate or I will stop believing in it. So yeah, I agree that not every person will believe in a specific moral code, but that of coarse doesn't mean society can't come to a consensus of what is right and wrong in general. However, when it comes some moral situations. "who is right or wrong" or "who gets to decide morality for all" are not questions worth asking because people can have "logical" justifications behind their actions, but those actions can still purely and essentially wrong. For example, Stannis and Melisandre's sacrifices. Those are rephensible from the point of view of any code of ethics besides religious extremism. Also, in other cases, such questions may not be possible to answer clearly. I'm not ignoring the shortcomings of of these characters. I simply disagree with the notion that someone cannot make a wrong decision, - especially one they regret- without being completely "grey" or morally ambiguous. I don't see how that's any different from moral absolutism. Just because people make bad choices, doesn't people are incapable of being essentially good. If you want call it "being a saint", then okay I guess you could call it that. I would call Davos, Ned, Jon, Sam, Robb, Brienne, Meera, Bran, Jojen, Sansa, Shireen, Renly, Hordor, EdriDayne, Berric Dondarian and the BWB, good people. There are also characters on the road to redemption like Jamie and the Hound. The would call the show counterparts of Arya and Tyrion good people, but I hear they are much darker in the books, so I don't want to be completely consclusive. The only Stark I would call almost completely selfish is Catelyn and Lady SH is obviously not a good person.
  5. I agree completely moral ambiguity or lack of it does not dertermine whether a story is well written and enjoyable. What some people would determine a "black and white" story can be harder to write than a story full of "grey" characters
  6. Yeah, my previous statement was not properly stated. I completely agree that intentions are integral to one's moral descion making, but I was just trying to re-empazise that simply having an intention is not what dertimines an action to be right or wrong. The mere existence of one is what I deem "irrelevant", not what the intentions actually are.
  7. True, I think my statement in red was poorly communicated . Intentions are important, but having good or ambiguous intentions to an act does not automatically mean the act is moral. Daenerys may or may not have had good intentions when crucifying random slavers without trial, but that doesn't mean it's justified. About your statements in bold. The human species as a whole has not actively participated in wiping out other species. As in not everyone is trying kill elephants and other endangered species. There are a lot people trying to stop poachers. This can't be said of the Others who are actively trying to eradicate humans. It's possible the Others we see are just an extremist faction, and "normal" Others do not want to kill humans, but we have no idea. Also, none of the life forms you listed are sentient, so they are not comparable to the Others IMO. I'm actually not utterly against utilitarianism btw. In some circumstances, actions that are not traditionally seen as "right" are simply necessary. An example of this, maybe when Miri Maaz Durr was acussed of killing Rhaego by Daenerys. It's likely she killed neither Drogo or Rhaego, and Daenerys being the self righteous bitch she is just wanted to punish her... but I would have no problem if Miri purposefully killed either of them. I'm wondering what your opinion on utilitarianism is? Do you think is an example in ASIOAF where a utilitarian coarse of ethics is taken and you agree with it?
  8. I feel like Joffrey's behavior is more understandable considering how he was raised. He was brainwashed to believe he's allowed to do whatever he wants to people because he's a Lannister by his mother. Daenerys was taught to believe in Targaryen superiority by her brother, but I honestly believe she is just naturally self righteous with a victim complex because "her kingdom was taken from her".
  9. Daenerys is self righteously cruel. She revels in the suffering of others if she thinks they derseve to suffer. This description of her chracter came to me from an old thread discussing a disgustingly evil act she committed: her burning of Miri to death. It was by @Petyr Patter. That cruelty was the first of many if you don't count her standing by as her own brother was killed in an externally disgusting way. Viserys was a lunatic, but pouring molten gold on someone's head is even more insane than he was.
  10. I never said the whole of humankind was was particularly good at reckonsing those ethical standards. Also, we do not depend most of the enndgagered species in earth for survival yet is still wrong to drive them to extinction. Ethics is not defined by what is natural or needed for survival, but does councide with if at times. There is no evidence that Others need to destroy all life in order to survive. We nothing about their motives. I'm confused by you mean by "it's in their nature", are you saying the Others are just a supernatural force who are not sentient, thus have no choice in what they're doing?
  11. Reasons can be important in evaluating an action to be right or wrong. However, many people seem to believe simply having a reason behind a reprehensible action is enough to absolve a person from condemnation and assert "everyone's the hero of their own story". This makes no sense whatsoever. The actual reason is what is important, not the mere presence of one. As I've stated before, everyone has "reasons" behind their actions.
  12. It's ambiguous in the sense that the person's actions can fall anywhere on the spectrum depending on what they want rather than standards of right and wrong. It means there is no clear line between good and evil. People's actions are a big mess of "grey" composed of what we usually think of being "good" or "evil" actions but at end of the day there there no good or evil, according to moral relativists, nor is there good or evil people. People operate according to their own desires and we attach value to those actions based on our persceptives. Our persceptive is what makes an action "ambiguous", not a true existence of right and wrong. The "greyness" is ultimately a meaningless sea of nothing.
  13. I never claimed people don't justify their actions by pretending or genuinely thinking they're doing the right thing in real life or the books. I'm simply claiming that not everyone operates that way, and that there are people who do not care whether something is right or wrong.
  14. I just wanted to clear any confusion and say that my main point with the Others isn't necessarily about whether they're evil or not, I'm arguing against the assertion that it is impossible for the Others to be evil because of the oversimplification this saga has been reduced to. This is under the assumption that the Others are sentient beings, which is very clear in the show but maybe I haven't gotten far enough into the books to judge if the case is the same. The bottom line is it's possible that by the end of the story I'll be convinced that the Others at least aren't purely evil, but that end is yet to come.
  15. I would say ethical standards should be beneficial to life in general, not just human life. A species trying to annihilate another species is evil regardless of what species were are talking about. Just like the Andals slaughtering the children of the forest were also reprehensible actions. The evilness of genocide really has nothing to do with what "race" were taking about. Futhermore, all those things you listed are entirely distinct from moral ambiguity. Having to face dilemmas is moral complexity and implies an existence and respect for ethical standards. Moral ambiguity is essentially amorality, meaning descions are simply based on characters' selfish desires much like Tywin, Littlefinger, and Daenerys. I don't buy her "abolistinst" act, she's okay with virtually any reprehensible act if it benefits her or sadistically punishes those she deems as worthless, so she can get her "ruthlessness" across.