winter daughter

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  1. And you keep ignoring this part because it proves you are wrong about the reason she suggested the tourney. It's clear that you've already made up your mind about this. I didn't start this conversation because I wanted to make you love her, to each his own. hate her as much as you like. I just wanted to know if you had some textual proof for your theory(Sansa has plotted with LF to kill SR) and you answered me. you don't have any proof.
  2. Lying to Joff and manipulating him was the only way to save Dantos. For me what is remarkable is how she has changed since then. saving Dantos is a sign of development for me. She feels guilty and LF knows it and use it against her. "Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?" Marillion's face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. "No," Sansa said. "Please." I never said she get a pass. apples and oranges. She suggested it because of Robert. Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave. And no sooner did she tell Petyr her idea than he went out and made it happen.
  3. in her first ACOK chapter she saved Dantos, she risked getting punished to save a stranger life. compare this to trident incident with Mycha. IMO it's a big change and not a cosmetic one. And yes hardships change us and it applies to Sansa too. You said she got her wolf and her father killed like she was the only one responsible. hopefully she will. I think she is trying. but it's not an easy task. especially for a 13 year old orphan who has been through so much herself. We read her thoughts so we know why she suggested it, to keep him safe and make him strong. Of course LF has his own reasons for agreeing to this suggestion. It's a clever excuse for LF not for Sansa. And I said she hates the Eyrie not the Vale.
  4. Everyone has been played by this guy, Jon Arryn, Lysa, Ned, Cat, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Jamie, Vale lords. he is a mastermind and playing and manipulating people(even smart people) is his speciality so yeah she is still being played by him. she has been with him for less than a year. did you expect her to outmaneuver the human villain of the story in a couple of months? it would've been stupid and unbelievable. she needs time to learn politics. but I think she will start playing her own game soon. we see the hints in her sample chapter. Actually I said she had a part in her father's downfall but she was not the only one responsible. He doesn't say he has a plan to kill Robin. he says he is ill and his death is inevitable. So Robert, Cersei and Ned were not responsible? As you said it yourself there is no proof that she has plotted with LF to kill Robin. He keeps nuzzling her breasts, wetting her mattress, giving her sloppy kisses, ordering her around, throwing things but has she ever mistreated him? no. she has always been patient with him. And holding a tourney so the best young knights in the vale could become his guards. Yes it was. Spoilers removed.
  5. She has not sacrificed Robin yet, has she? you are judging her based on something she has not done or thought about it yet.
  6. Sansa is not politically savvy. but she is definitely learning to be a player. "...She is beginning to at least try to understand how she can play the game of thrones and be not a piece but a player with her own goals and moving other pieces around... and she is not a warrior like Robb, Jon Snow. she is not even a wild child like Arya. she can't fight with swords, axes. she can't raise armies... but she has her wits the same as Littlefinger has." GRRM And it seems like you still think saving Dantos and the common woman from Joffrey do not count as good actions. he is saying to Sansa his death is inevitable becuase of his illness. yes he is most likely intending to kill him when the time comes but he doesn't say this to Sansa. yeah. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?" And she doesn't even like Eyrie, she has said time and time again how cold, isolated, silent and lifeless it is. so usurping Robin and living in the Eyrie is not her dream, returning to Winterfell is. Of course she is regretful. she tells us herself in her first ACOK chapter. And Lady's death was not only Sansa's fault. Cersei demanded it, Robert ordered it and Ned carried it out although he knew Lady was innocent. Again in her father's downfall she played a part but she was not the only one responsible for it. Ned himself, LF, Varys, Cersei all of them played a part but in the end it was Joffrey who ordered the execution (although he was advised to spare him) and it was Payne who carried it out. Yeah she knows the drug is not harmless but she also knows it's the only effective treatment for his seizures. Is her decision questionable? yes. but does it prove she has plotted with LF to murder him? No. They've never talked about murdering SR. she has never though about killing or usurping him. No. it's not a good explanation. when you are killing someone slowly you don't try to keep him safe at the same time. you don't care if he becomes brave or remains a coward, because you are murdering him. What other good qualities SR has? it just shows that she has no plan to kill him. Yeah this part from her last AFFC chapter is controversial but we have a TWOW sample chapter in which she has organized a big tourney so the boy could have his own guards to keep him safe.
  7. Most of the our characters are flawed and sometimes oblivious to what is happening around them. just because she is not yet alarmed about LF's true intentions doesn't mean she is unforgivable. by your logic almost all of our characters are unforgivable and unlikable. Lysa probably warned him about his heir. As Sansa remarked Lysa had filled SR with fear. Lying about what? SR is a sick child and everyone knows it. and Harry is his heir so it is completely normal if he is preparing himself for the position in case SR dies. That doesn't mean he is trying to usurp him. This is what LF told Sansa when he was talking about her marriage to Harry. When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. So even if he has a plan to murder SR he hasn't shared it with Sansa. Brotherhood of winged knights was Sansa's idea not LF's. and she suggested it to keep SR safe and make him brave. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave. Of course LF had his own reasons for agreeing to this plan. Yeah she is lying about her identity. she is wanted for regicide so I think it's normal that she is keeping her identity a secret especially from an eight year old child. She thinks if SR dies(which is very likely because of his health condition) Harry is her only chance to take back her home. Returning to Winterfell has been Sansa's dream since her father's execution. And you still haven't provided any textual proof to prove that Sansa is actively poisoning him. As I said before if she is actively poisoning him because she wants to usurp his ancestral seat she should think about it sometimes and talk about the plot with her partner. And you also haven't explained why she wants to keep him safe or why she hopes he lives long if she is slowly killing him. Arya is a deeply traumitized child but not evil. she is 12 and has been through hell in the past 3-4 years. evils are characters like Ramsay, Gregor and other monsters like them not Arya.
  8. Sometime ago I asked you for some textual proof for this theory. but you haven't provide anything yet. why? When you are poisoning someone slowly to usurp his seat you sure think about it from time to time or talk about the plot with your partner. right? And you sure don't think about how you can keep him safe and make him brave. or hope he survive long enough to wed. BTW, she doesn't know LF had a part in her father's downfall.
  9. Such a powerful moment. And the video was very interesting. thank you.
  10. Bran knows Hodor doesn't like it but he does it anyway even when he doesn't have to. What he is doing is wrong but if you think the word mind-raping is too harsh then I'll use mind-ridding from now on. but I'm sure if it was Sansa instead of Bran you would be just fine with the word mind-raping. I don't think she is a psychopath. but some of her actions are supposed to be morally questionable. And it applies to all the other characters of the series. And Sansa haters insist everything she has done is wrong, not understandable, truly stupid, or hardly forgivable, at best. Work in a little more gray, people!
  11. But her siblings in the current phase of their stories are not really heroes. Bran is mind raping Hodor and Arya kills people in cold blood for revenge or because she thinks she has a right to do so.
  12. She tried to save Dantos twice. she couldn't let Joffrey kill him even after he threatened her for her first attempt. and yes she risked getting punished(beaten) to save him. the best things she has done were saving two helpless people from Joffrey. it seems like saving people is not that important to you. Please prove this with some textual evidence. if she is actively killing him slowly she should think about it from time to time. right? and what do you think of these quots from her AWOW sample chapter. So why she hopes he grows old and wed if she is killing him? Why she wants him to be safe if she is actively poisoning him? about Jeof.. yes in the first book she wanted to marry a handsome prince. and in that time Starks and Lannister were not at war. but in the second book she burned down her mattress and wardrobe at the thought of marrying him. She didn't despise Tyrion she just didn't trust him because he was a Lannister(and that's why she never opened up to him) and she didn't want to have sex with him because as you said he was an ugly dwarf.(without a nose) Has Tyrion himself ever shown any desire for an ugly woman? or a dwarf? And he had a choice. he chose to marry Sansa because she was beautiful and heir to Winterfell. Of course these things do not make up for turning her back on her family. when did I say that? You claimed she has had no development since the beginning. but hugging lowborn Lothor and being proud of her bastard persona are developments. she used to look down on bastards and lowborns. she doesn't look down on them anymore. so clearly she has changed. And about SR ...as I said before you have to prove your claim with some textual evidences. You said she should've acted like a proud northern lady and defy the Lannisters somehow. but now you are criticizing her for not kneeling in her forced wedding?
  13. Baelish doesn't need to spoon-feed her. she is a smart pupil. As you said it yourself and I repeated after you we don't know whether her arc is admirable or not and how she'll use her skills. so it's too soon to put her in the same category as Cersei. You are right. I should've said: She also could not have been unaware that Tyrion played a big role in Lannister's victory. better? I don't hang the whole marriage thing on Tyrion. sure if he hadn't consented, Tywin would have married her to another Lannister. But it doesn't change the fact that Tyrion did consent to marry her because he wanted beautiful Sansa and Winterfell. He was well aware that he was not a kind of man Sansa wanted to marry and share a bed with but he accepted Tywin's offer anyway. Yes I know Tyrion was messed up but so was Sansa. she taught she was going to marry Willas and flee her prison and her psychopath abuser. but then what happened? She was forced to marry a Lannister (so they could steal her ancestral home) and become part of the family she hated so much.
  14. We were not talking about whether her arc is admirable or not. we were talking about whether she will remain a pawn/tool or become a player. it seems like you agree that she is learning politics and will become a player sooner or later. And her arc is not finished yet so we don't know whether it is admirable or not. there is nothing wrong with leaning politics. but it remains to be seen how she will use these skills. Sansa's betrayal has already happened in the first book and she regrets it bitterly. why do you think she will betray her family again after all she has been through? He married a 12 year old because he wanted Winterfell. he was not a victim in their marriage. and he was ready to have a sex with a child but at the end he couldn't rape her. He shouldn't have agreed to marry a helpless child if he really cared about her or respected her and her wishes. He was a Lannister and he was loyal to his family no matter how much he apparently hated them. and his family was at war with hers. she could not open up to someone who was on enemy's team and was working against her family. She also could not have been unaware that it was Tyrion who was behind Lannister's victory. he fought for his family and his evil nephew against the rightful heir. yeah he hated them. but he fought for them, married her so Winterfell could become his(and theris) and remained loyal to them until the very end. so there was no real common ground.