theMADdestScientist_

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About theMADdestScientist_

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    As you can see, i'm pretty much like anyone else, but on the inside...i'm a little bit "madder" than most.

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    I like to pretend to be a Scientist.

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  1. When did Robert oppose the Mad King? Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon, and Ned did nothing. Rhaegar "kidnapped" his "beloved" Lyanna, and Robert did nothing. Aerys demanded Robert and Ned's heads, and it was Jon Arryn who rose in rebellion, Robert and Ned only followed him.
  2. In AFFC, Arya hears a song: Who's this song about? who's this lady who threw herself off some tower? and who's this prince? I thought it could be Ashara, but i'm not sure...
  3. Nice post, let me give a look at our suspects. Possible, this is really possible, at least in the books. Very unlikely. I don't think Lyanna needed to say anything to Robert, it's not as if they had a "relationship". Rickard promised Lyanna to Robert, but Robert would not "own" her until they married. The only person Lyanna needed to say something was her father. Also, despite his twisted sense of honor, i don't believe Robert would do such a thing. If Robert wanted to do something, he would bring his discontent to Rickard Stark, the man who promised his own daughter to him, not Brandon Stark. Brandon was the heir to Winterfell, but it was Rickard who had the last word in anything regarding his family. This is very unlikely as well. Those two had a reputation of being good people before they decided to hook up, it seems they allowed love(or prophecy?) to guide them, but this is all we know for now. Everything regarding how they planned(or not planned) their elopment is a mystery, we gonna have to wait on George for this one(i know, it hurts me to say this) However, I would like to nominate another character, i believe the lies came from somewhere else, and since we are just theorizing, i think it's fine. Bear in mind that i don't have anything to support any of this, it's pure speculation, but i always thought that something was wrong with this guy. And by this guy, i mean...Ethan Glover. I always thought it was very strange that Ethan Glover was the only one who survived while Aerys killed all the others(including Ethan's father), and the first name Catelyn mentioned when she remembered those who went with Brandon to King's Landing, was Ethan's. George clearly wanted this guy to be important in some form, otherwise, why allow him to live only for him to die at the Tower of Joy later? My theory is this: I believe Ethan Glover was in love with Lyanna Stark, he was Brandon's squire, and would have been close with the Starks while he was at Winterfell. They say Brandon heard about Lyanna's abduction, but from who? and who saw this? i think the person holding all these secrets is Ethan Glover. I don't know exactly how(obviously), but Ethan did know(saw?) that Lyanna run away with Rhaegar, and if Ethan loved her, he would have hated Rhaegar to death. I believe Ethan was the one who told Brandon that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister, so Rhaegar would have to pay for stealing something Ethan wanted. And if Ethan told something like this to Brandon, it means he was not a honorable person, if anything, he was ready to do dishonorable things to get what he wanted. How he survived in King's Landing is a puzzle to me, but something tells me he made a deal with "someone" in King's Landing, and told them things they might have wanted to know, and that's probably how he was able to survive. Another thing that i find curious is that he accompanied Ned to the Tower of Joy, did Ned ask Ethan to go with him? i don't think so, i believe Ethan wanted to go(by obvious reasons). His later death at the Tower of Joy by the hands of the Kingsguards could be seen as justice if this is true. What you think of my theory? again, i have nothing to support it, only my suspicions?
  4. A little off-topic, but... Viserys was a child when the rebellion happened, it would take years before he came of age and be formally betrothed to someone(Rhaegar himself was betrothed at 19-20), one can think that by the time he came of age, Aerys would no longer be on the throne. Which means that Rhaegar likely would be the one in power(likely, not sure). Do you think Rhaegar would have betrothed his daughter to Viserys? It got me curious, because we don't know Rhaegar's views on incest, nor what he thought of Viserys to the point he would want to betroth his daughter to him. I'm inclined to think he would not, since Aerys and Rhaella's marriage was something Rhaegar probably wanted to forget, but what you think?
  5. No, that's not corret, this couldn't be more wrong. While the Valyrians practiced incest with their closest relatives, Westeros did it too, even if with less frequency. The honorable House Stark married uncles and nices before, and they did it twice. That's not to say, cousing marriages has always been fairly popular. Westeros is not based on our modern times, they don't share our view. People from the middle ages always saw incest with different eyes, and pretty much everything else too. I'm sure the fact that they are related will bother at least Jon for a while, but incest is nothing new to Westeros(or Planetos for that matter). After some drama, Jon will come to terms with it, love will have to speak louder, and i'm sure this will cause even more problems than the fact that they are related. They shouldn't be having sexual relations while the undead has just destroyed the wall and invaded the north. My take is that Jon and Daenerys's love will bring an end to the both of them, just like Rhaegar and Lyanna. The Others/White Walkers will be defeated, but the costs of that victory will be huge, both on a personal level and on a political level. We will have a bittersweet end, one hell of a bittersweet end.
  6. I do, i remember Arya being quite interested in flowers. Arya shrugged. “Hold still,” she snapped at Nymeria, “I’m not hurting you.” Then to Sansa she said, “When we were crossing the Neck, I counted thirty-six flowers I never saw before, and Mycah showed me a lizard-lion.” One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers.
  7. I sincerely doubt he would have paid much attention to her if she had not donned an armor and entered in the lists. Lyanna was no Cersei or Ashara after all, i bet Elia was prettier than her as well.
  8. Since i heard about Rhaegar's annulment, i thought: why would D&D want to make Rhaegar annul his marriage to Elia? At first i thought it maked sense, but now i'm not so sure anymore. This got me thinking, and with some help, i realized that...this does not make sense for the books, but it does for the show. In the books, we have Aegon Targaryen/Young Griff, the supposed son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell, who survived the sack of King's Landing thanks to Varys. Many will agree with me that his role in the books will be to test Dany and see what she will do when she finds out about this kid with a far better claim to the throne. We thought we would not have this on the show though, because there was no time to include Aegon. But now that Jon is finally legitimate(something that only happened because his father annulled his previous marriage according to D&D), this changes everything. If we learn that Jon's true name is "Aegon" by the end of this season, then i got it right, Jon got Aegon/Young Griff's storyline. This was D&D's way of simplifying everything, which is totally understandable. By doing this, the viewers(show-only fans) don't get confused with Rhaegar and his two wives(i believe he married both women). In the books, i don't believe that Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia, he could still marry Lyanna without setting Elia aside, that's the point of Aegon the Conqueror, the man who had two wives. Besides, Rhaegar was into prophecy in the books, something that the show has never talked about. And Rhaegar wanted at least three legitimate children, because "the dragon had three heads" apparently. George did talk to a fan about an annulment back in 2000, but the marriage in question was that of Sansa and Tyrion, and their marriage was not consummated, they had a justifiable reason for an annulment, in case they wanted one. Rhaegar on the other hand, did not have a justifiable reason for an annulment, nor do i think he would have ever tried to annul his marriage. Elia Martell was nothing but a dutiful wife to him, and their children needed to remain legitimate, because an annulment might have taken their legitimacy away(in some cases an annulment does not take a child's legitimacy. Nonetheless, this would still be too risky for Rhaegar). Rhaegar would find himself into deep trouble with Dorne as well, if they ever found out that he ended his marriage to Elia, which is another reason for me to believe he didn't. Also, we have proof that Rhaegar did not set Elia aside, in the books at least. One thing that George does extremely well, is to pay attention to detail. Like this one important detail in one of Jaime's dreams in ASOS. Rhaegar refers to Elia as his wife, even after death. The only time Rhaegar has ever mentioned Elia, and he refers to her as his wife, no less. Dream or not, this is Rhaegar Targaryen, he barely appears in the books, but when he does, everything he says should be dissected, everything. He could have simply said: "I left Elia and our children in your hands", but he refers to Elia as his wife. George was leaving a clue there, and it was intentional, as intentional as the tale about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Rhaegar Targaryen likely had two wives in the books, just like Aegon the Conqueror. Also, interestingly enough, Rhaegar was compared to Aegon the Conqueror before, this happened in TWOIAF After talking to Linda Antonsson(one of the authors of TWOIAF) on twitter, she was able to talk some sense into me when i was trying to argue with her that an annulment did make sense, but she gave me some very good facts as to why it would not work in the books. I now truly believe the show made Rhaegar annul his marriage to Elia because it would be easier for the viewers(show-only fans in general) to understand this. It would be far more complicated to explain to show-only fans how a guy can marry two women in Westeros. Now, what you guys think about this? TL;DR Rhaegar did not annul his marriage to Elia Martell in the books, but they made him annul his marriage in the show because it would be easier for show-only fans to understand how Jon is legitimate, instead of explaining how a guy can have two wives in Westeros. Jon Snow got Aegon/Young Griff's storyline on the show.
  9. Look closer, hindsight is not the best to way to look at the rebellion. No one, no one would ever thought that such a thing would happen. Rhaegar did took Lyanna and contributed to the war, but Brandon and especially Aerys's actions also contributed to it. People(including Rhaegar) only saw that Aerys was truly insane after he killed Brandon and Rickard, before this they thought he was just nuts. Not even Rhaegar thought it was a good thing to reason with Aerys, and the entire realm called him the mad king by that point(as Catelyn confirms in ACOK), as to mock him, but they did not know that he was truly insane yet. Nonetheless, Brandon(not Rickard) goes there and does what even Rhaegar did not, would you call it a smart move? please. Rhaegar, Aerys and Brandon contributed to the war, and probably others we don't know the name yet. Truth being told, he was not. If we take Lyanna out of the equation, we don't have Rhaegar making any decisions without good/fair reasons, we don't have nothing to use against him that would qualify him as a "political dumb'ss". He wisely avoided any conflict with Aerys at Harrenhal, even if he organized the tourney to end his reign. He only annuled his marriage with Elia when he found a reasonable reason to do it, one that Dorne would understand, even if they did not like it(they would have hated it). But Rhaegar committed a serious mistake in taking Lyanna the way he did, the way he managed the situation was...terrible and insensible to say the least. These are some of the reasons that one can use to end a marriage, not the only ones. If you have a different reason, they will listen to you, just as the church always did back then. And if your reason/justification to end the marriage is reasonable, they will grant you an annulment. Yes, you are correct, Elia did her duty, we know this, but this is not about her, it's about the fact that Rhaegar wants more children(legitimate children), and due to Elia's health, it would be far too dangerous for her to have more kids. So? he could have made another child with his new wife after Elia and their kid had died. The only reason for Rhaegar not to impregnate Elia again, is because he did not want her to die, is that simple. This is a good example that he was not eager to do "everything" for prophecy, but that he would do what he could. It would have been for Rhaegar to say to the others who is his heir(for him, it was his son with Elia), and it would be for him to manage the situation. Rhaegar had good examples thanks to Viserys I and the Dance of the Dragons, so he had an idea of what not to do when you have legitimate children from two different wives. Rhaegar died, so, there is no point in talking about this, but i would have been very interested to see how he would have managed the situation. I answered this already, but again, he wanted more children, and he needed to give a good and reasonable reason to the High Septon to give him an annulment. It seems he found one. Everything that happened with Tywin was personal. Tywin resigned as hand of the king because he could not suffer being shamed by Aerys anymore, which included not only the betrothal Tywin wanted, but much more stuff as well. As for the other Great Houses not taking it lightly, that's none of their business. Remember when the Tyrells were plotting to make Robert set Cersei aside and marry Margaery instead? they didn't seem to care about what the other houses would think of it, great or small houses, they simply did not care, because it was not their problem, the others simply had nothing to do with it. I know very well what an annulment is, as i also know that there is no easy precedent to make a legitimate child illegitimate. You are correct, the marriage would cease to exist completely, but for as long as it existed, any children born from that marriage would be considered legitimate. It worked this way back then, and it works almost the same way nowadays. The thing about an annulment, is that it almost looks like a divorce, the difference is that it erases the marriage completely, but what you did during that marriage still remains, and by "what you did", i mean the children of course. To make a legitimate child illegitimate, is not something easy. To put it simply, an annulment is a complex process, where many things can happen in various different ways, Rhaegar pretty much said how things are. When Aegon was born, he gave him a name fit for a king, and said that he needed one more child, because he had only two. He did not want bastards, he pretty much made it clear. One could argue that he could have had a bastard on a servant girl in Dragonstone, and then legitimized him/her. But in the end, it's not the same, besides cheating on his wife, he would have had to legitimize and give a claim to the Iron Throne to the child of a peasant. Can you imagine it? a prince born from a servant girl, in Westeros, has a claim to the Iron Throne, this would be disgraceful. The solution? he married a highborn woman(it does not matter if it has Stark blood for him) after he ended his marriage, because the son of a highborn woman would be much more acceptable. I'm very indifferent to this argument, his children were safe in Dragonstone, Elia was safe in Dragonstone, it was the war that made everything look worse. As for Lyanna, treat her like any other betrothed girl/women, Rhaegar had to act quickly if he wanted to marry her, otherwise her father could have married her to Robert Baratheon at any moment. Rhaegar acted swiftly, though he handled the situation very badly afterwards, even if Brandon going to King's Landing was an unpredictable act.
  10. Rhaegar did not went after Lyanna to make a child of ice and fire, he only wanted another kid, because the dragon has three heads, this is all in the books. Rhaegar truly believed it was his son with Elia that was this prophesied prince. Rhaegar had no idea that his kid with Lyanna would be the prophesied prince he was after. Since he needed more children, Rhaegar chose Lyanna as his new wife because he probably loved her. That's why we are told the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, to know how they fell in love. We also learn in the House of the Undying why Rhaegar would want to go after Lyanna and marry her, because his wife couldn't have more children, and he needed more. It's simple math dude, believe me, Rhaegar had no "ice and fire stuff" in his head when he went after Lyanna. It would be nice if there was, but it is not needed really, Melissandre can tells us about the prophecy. That's not to say, Rhaegar did more than read books about prophecy day and night, Barristan himself says some things he used to do, and this is enough for the viewer to have an idea of how he was and why men followed him into battle. This is not important for the show, but in the History and Lore of Westeros(those extras that comes with the Blu-Ray), it is mentioned in the video about the Knight of the Laughing Tree that Rhaegar arranged the tourney to take Aerys from the throne. Elia could not have children anymore, and another pregnancy would have killed her, there you have it, the reason/justification to end it. George mentions Elia's health here and there, because this is the justification used to end the marriage. Dude, if he held no value for her, he would just get her pregnant again(which would kill her) and be done with it. Instead, he did not, that doesn't say something to you? An annulment is not the end of the world, her son would still be king after Rhaegar, but now she did not have to bother to have children anymore, which is a very good thing for her. People only try to see the bad side of things, it's unbelievable. The examples mentioned by Lyannas are the ones where the annulment made the children illegitimate, she did not mention those where the children where kept legitimate. One good example would be Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII of France, they had an annulment when their marriage was on the rocks, with the pope’s approval. The consanguinity (which didn’t prevent them from getting married in the first place) was a legal Band-Aid to cover up what was, functionally, a divorce. Their two daughters were not bastardized in the process, because Louis did not want their daughters to lose their legitimacy. That's not to say, even today an annulment doesn't make a child illegitimate, as long as the child was born during the marriage. He doesn't need to be a king to annul his marriage, he only needs to give a good reason to the High Septon. And yes, his marriage will be annuled in the books as well, that's why George talks about Elia's health here and there. That's the only reason Rhaegar could give to annul his marriage and have a legitimate child with Lyanna. Also, George himself talked with a fan about Sansa having an annulment in her marriage with Tyrion back in 2000(it was mentioned on Reddid yesterday i think), and George said that any of the partners can annul the marriage, both Sansa and Tyrion. Those where George R.R. Martin's own words, you clearly don't need to be a king to annul a marriage. Dude, George has this in mind. Dorne would still hold great influence in Rhaegar's court under Aegon, Elia's son and heir to the Iron Throne. You're making too much out of it. He shouldn't do this, but if he does, he needs to have a good reason for it, and he did have a good reason/justification to end the marriage. Rhaegar wants more children, but Elia will die if she has more. People wanted Aerys the first (not the second) to put aside his wife because they tought he didn't like her, and this is one terrible reason to end a marriage. Rhaegar had a good and reasonable reason to end his marriage to Elia, her life would be in danger if she had another kid, and Rhaegar needed more kids. There's nothing Dorne could do about this really, they would have to be content with the fact that at the very least, Elia's son will be king(or would have been). If Rhaegar goes to Doran and says that he needs more children, but that it would be too dangerous for Elia to have more, what you think Doran would say or think? he would have hated the idea, but he would know very well that Rhaegar would need a new wife.
  11. Littlefinger is smart, he knows stuff. If someone is spying on him, he knows it.
  12. Can you please stop saying that Rhaenys and Aegon are bastards? please, do a little research before saying things, it doesn't hurt. Rhaegar and Elia's marriage was legal, they married under the eyes of gods and men, any children born out of their marriage would be legitimate, and would remain legitimate even when the marriage was annuled/ended. This is from a legal site, to help you understand what an annulment is: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHNrUwAU0AANxRn.jpg:large "Although most annulments take place very soon after the wedding, some couples seek an annulment after they have been married for years. In that case, the court considers all of the same issues as in a divorce, divides property, and makes decisions about support and custody. Children of a marriage that has been annuled are still legally considered "legitimate" children of that marriage." This is pretty much what says there, Rhaenys and Aegon did not lose their legitimacy. That's not to say, what's the point of Rhaegar taking away the legitimacy of his kids? he wanted three legitimate kids as he himself said: "the dragon has three heads". If Rhaenys and Aegon lose their legitimacy, Rhaegar's plan does not make sense. Rhaegar did not gave a name to his child with Lyanna, he left the Tower of Joy and died long before the kid was born. If anyone named Jon as Aegon, IT WAS LYANNA, AND BY HER OWN CHOICE. The reason for it, i don't know, but since Elia's Aegon was brutally murdered, one can believe that Lyanna named her kid as an homage to Elia's Aegon, it could be as simple as this. Rhaegar's heir would always be Elia's Aegon, Rhaegar himself says as much: This is all the proof you need, Lyanna's son would always come after Elia's son in the line of succession. Also, let's not kid ourselves and say that Rhaegar ended his marriage to Elia without justification so he could be with his "true love". Rhaegar wanted three kids, he makes it clear: If Rhaegar wanted to annul/end his marriage, he would need a reason/justification, otherwise the High Septon would not do it. After giving birth to two children, what happened to Elia? There you have it, instead of getting Elia pregnant again, something that would almost surely kill her, Rhaegar ended the marriage. He then marries Lyanna, so he can have more legitimate children. His actions are pretty straightforward. Rhaegar probably loved Lyanna, but i don't think for a minute that he went after her without a reason. Elia most likely knew, because if she did not, it would mean problems for Rhaegar in the future. The best thing Rhaegar could do is make her aware of it, and why he was doing it. This way he would avoid any unnecessary problems with Doran and the dornish in the future. It was also the honest thing to do, i see no reason for Rhaegar not to tell the mother of two of his children that he was planning to annul the marriage. If Rhaegar was as good as Barristan and those men that followed him to the Trident makes him to be, he would have been honest with Elia. Think this way: if Rhaegar had the courage to face Robert at the Trident, and fought him honorably according to all accounts, why wouldn't Rhaegar face Elia with honor as well? They were fighting for Elia's children as well, including Elia's son, who would be king after Rhaegar. The dornish did not went to the Trident without reason. Do not make everything be about Elia, it was not. I'm sad that she had the ending she had, especially because she was one of the few characters that seemed genuinely good, but i'm not sad that she had her marriage annuled. If anything, it was the best thing for her to not have to bother having children again. So many people angry on Elia's behalf, but no one knows how she felt. What we know is that she did not have to bother to have children again, since her marriage was annuled. It does not look like the end of the world, far from it actually, the annulment had some good implications for her. If only the rebellion had not happened, or if Rhaegar had the decency to choose a woman that wasn't betrothed to Robert Baratheon.
  13. Maester Aemon sees it different: "Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy." Rhaegar was lucky to have married a woman like Elia, a shame he was not able to see this. But, we are only human at the end of the day, and you can't force someone to do something as hard as love another after spending no more than a year married to that person. I can see him ending his marriage to Elia to go for Lyanna. The biggest hint for it is Lyanna saying that Robert would never keep to one bed; but what of Rhaegar? he was married wasn't he? by the time he went after Lyanna, something tells me he wasn't married anymore. How that sounds for a 16 year old? the prince she had fallen in love with did something as hard as ending his marriage to his wife, only so he could keep himself faithful to her. This is the only scenario where Lyanna's comments does not make her an hypocrite.
  14. I don't know, i think if going after Lyanna was something he really wanted/needed/had to do, it would be pretty dishonest to do it while he was married to Elia. If he put an end to his marriage with Elia, at the very least he was honest with her and did not went running with another behind her back. This of course, is taking into account that Elia knew about this divorce/annulment. Aegon and Rhaenys were conceived during a legitimate union, they can't be made bastards. Rhaegar himself refers to his son with Elia as a king, that's all you need to know. The dornish were fighting for Elia and her children, and one of her children was the heir to the Iron Throne after Rhaegar. It's not as if the dornish were fighting in a war where they had nothing to gain.
  15. I don't want anything, but now that you touched on the subject, my preference would be that Rhaegar had stayed with Elia, she seems to have been a lovely woman according to those who knew her, Rhaegar was fond of her as well. Their marriage seemed fine before Harrenhal, and Harrenhal happened not long after they married, roughly a year later. One does wonder if Rhaegar and Elia could have had a longer marriage before the tourney, they could have created a deeper bond; I ask myself if he would still go after Lyanna if he had a loving relationship with Elia? I say no, but we will never know, especially with the prophecy business running strong. All in all, i have to say, i really like this match, the sensible guy and the delicate girl, i genuinely thought that Rhaegar and Elia were a good match for each other, but i fear i'm alone in this one. As for Lyanna herself, she seems trouble to me, it would be better if she had married Robert and made his life a living hell, so he could see that his manic pixie dream girl was nothing but a dream of his, and that he was sharing his bed with a wild wolf, no less. Now this would be so sweeeeeeet. As for my comment about the divorce/annulment, I'm trying to argue with these people who believes that Jon is legitimate, and the only scenario where i can see that Jon is legitimate, is if Rhaegar has married Lyanna and put Elia aside, because i don't see Lyanna entering in a polygamous marriage, and Jon cannot be legitimized by Rhaegar, only the King can legitimize a bastard. No, Elia's children wouldn't be bastards, even if her marriage with Rhaegar had ended. Elia's Aegon would always be Rhaegar's heir, Lyanna's children would always come after him, and i don't believe Rhaegar named his child with Lyanna as Aegon. I doubt Rhaegar knew it was a boy, he died before he could see the child, if anyone named the child as Aegon, it was Lyanna by her own will, as for the reason, i have no idea. It's not about annul anything, it's about the fact that you can do anything in Westeros, save for the consequences of course. If you read an earlier comment of mine, i mentioned how Barristan was dismissed from the Kingsguard, and such a thing has never happened before. Robb Stark used Barristan's dismissal as a reason to try and take Jon out of the Watch. Anything can be done in Westeros, if you have the courage and influence to make it possible. The problem is the consequences of these actions, but ultimately, anything can be done.