Lifestream

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  1. Both, cause they need to re-unite.
  2. But Jon doesn't know that the Night's Watch is made up of criminals, cause Northmen (or at least WF) keep the NW in high regard. the rest of the Houses? not so, that's why it's filled with criminals. And that's exactly at the realization he comes when he first joins, that it's not made up of noble people who wish to serve a noble cause. it's the same with Sansa believing that reality is liked in the songs and stories. Jon's uncle, Benjen, had decided to join NW and he was a noble man and a decent role model. So Jon's opinion of NW perhaps is based on his opinion of Benjen who decided to serve/protect the realm, noble cause no doubt. Jon is 14 of course he's naive. If people think that at 14 the person the want to bone is the love of their life and can't live without them, why is it had to understand that Jon viewed NW in a romantic view? Ned did something very unusual for every nobleman who fathers bastards, he brought Jon home. He insulted Catelyn's honor. And Catelyn is very honorable, perhaps she was the more honorable and dutiful maid in all the 7 Kingdoms in her time. Catelyn is pretty much acting like mom after her mom died, doesn't complain, excels at what she's supposed to know as a woman, betrothed to Brandom and she doesn't whine nor complain because she's aware it's her duty to her family and has accepted and WHEN Brandon dies, she's expected to marry his brother (whom she's never met) as tradition dictates and once more she doesn't complain. She was the perfect daughter, heck she was even prepared for bastards because that's how men(Lords) in Westeros are. She's S tier wife material right there and then Ned brings Jon to live among her children. Something that NO lord does to his wife because it's insulting. Not only that, but some decades ago people had to deal with the Blackfyre Rebellion. So not only is she not getting perhaps the respect and treatment she deserves after working hard her whole life, her children are also in danger (in her mind) from a bastard who could challenge them. Was that all? No, when Catelyn hears rumors regarding Ashara Dayne she decides to ask Ned herself and not only doesn't he answer he actually gets really angry. So what does this tell Catelyn about Jon's mother? Well that Ned must have loved her a lot to bring Jon here AND that he must still love her to have such a reaction. And the shadow of the woman Ned loved and had Jon with remains till they separate. And Jon is a constant reminder of that and a constant threat to Catelyn. I won't argue that Catelyn was cold to him, cause she was and did seem to try to create distance between him and her kids in indirect ways, but those circumstances make it pretty difficult for Catelyn to warm up to him. Ned also seems to be aware how difficult it'd be FOR ANY woman (not only Catelyn) to be in such a situation and that's why he never forces her to be the mother Jon never had, because he knew how much he dishonored her in everyone's eyes by bringing Jon here. But at the same time he has a promise. I personally would not want to be in a case such as Catelyn's where I do everything right without whining and complaining and then I get rewarded with dishonor or anything similar. I'd feel cheated out of what I really deserved to be honest. But Catelyn again, tried to suppress that around Ned and grew to love him but he couldn't unfortunately do the same in regards to Jon. And that is because the issue is unresolved essentially. That woman haunts Catelyn and Ned is not willing to discuss it with her or assure her, so it's natural it'll cause friction and problems in some sort of way.
  3. I was referring to this exchange of theirs: Barristan is very hesitant to praise Rhaegar's combat ability for some reason. if anything he seems to imply that Rhaegar was better in other areas. And this is Barristan we're talking about who really loved, respected and admired Rhaegar. Why is he having such a hard time calling Rhaegar a good warrior? Look at the last paragraph. Is he being completely truthful there or making that up for Daenerys' sake. Barristan, as we all know, went on a solo mission and brought back the King. So i find it a bit hard to believe that such a man as hismelf, would really believe such a thing. I mean perhaps he does, but would he for such a legendary warrior as Rhaegar (at least that's what the tales say). i wouldn't be surprised if Barristan doesn't want to destroy Daenerys' version of Rhaegar but still, it's weird how he only calls Rhaegar a good warrior (if even that comes from his real opinion) when Daenerys and Jorah insist on it, so as not to antagonize them. Jorah might have seen Rhaegar at some point fight (I don't remember well), but Daenerys hasn't. She's only heard tales from Viserys, who's also been telling her bullshit about how Targaryens don't get sick or something. The only one who was truly around Rhaegar and with enough experience to be able to judge his skill was Barristan Selmy. Barristan when asked about Aerys: Even when it came to Aerys, Barristan had a hard time expressing the truth to Daenerys. Would it be impossible for Barristan to find it harder to express his honest opinion of Rhaegar to his sister, who never got to meet him? And unlike Aerys who was pretty terrible, Rhaegar was the total opposite (in Barristan's opinion at least). I might be missing some more info from the following chapters, but I'm currently basing my opinion on this exchange between the two. When I re-read his chapters or his other interractions with Dany I'll try to take notice of how he talks about Rhaegar.
  4. Actually this si pretty cool. I've considered sometimes that perhaps Rhaegar didn't win because of his real skill, but I always saw Selmy saying he was not enough of a good knight to mean that Rhaegar was simply better in combat or jousting. Which seemed a bit contradicting because sometimes Selmy seemed to imply that Rhaegar wasn't as good of a soldier/knight as Viserys had Daenerys believe (especially when he had compared Rhaegar to Arthur Dayne). This is a very good explanation that I also think lines up with Selmy's character. It makes sense that he would judge letting the crown Prince win to be the diplomatic choice and not the knightly and honest way. (Ned also uses the same argument against Robert when he wants to fight in the melee, that because he's the King, people would not fight fairly out of fear of hurting the King)
  5. Well, during one of the times he humiliates Sansa he does order the Kingsguard to strip her from the waist up and Tyrion after witnessing this does considering Joffrey's interest in sex. So he plans to take him to some brothels (but never gets the opportunity what with preparing for the battle against Stannis and his attempt to isolate Joffrey from the Hound). So you could say, in a twisted way he is interested in sex. Just still in a way that involves sadism and/or humiliation 9he also threatens Sansa with rape). Not to forget that cersei's interest in sex is also not healthy/genuine. She either uses it to gain something, fuck Jaime whom she considers an extension of herself or use it to feel dominant (the case with Taena)
  6. For me it's this exchange: Just something about the realization of how one doesn't matter as a person is really sad. And I think here Sansa really realizes the position she's in and reality of her situation. it's pretty cruel and tough and hard to come to terms with imo. And this unfortunately can be true in the real life as well.
  7. I don't know if it has been mentioned (didn't read all the posts), but i think when the Baratheons and Lannisters visit Winterfell, Joffrey is taller than some of the older kids (Robb and Jon, or just Robb). Considering his mother and father are Cersei and Jaime it's safe to say that he has a huge possibility of being handsome as well. Jon does remark on his girly looks, he also calls Myrcella insipid (if I'm right) when she's beside Robb 9which i think goes on to show his jealousy). For his martial prowess, we've never actually seen Joffrey fight. let's not forget that he was carrying a real sword against Arya and Mycah. Also that one time Sandor comments sarcastically on Joffrey "a brave boy" when he's told that Joffrey shot someone with a crossbow, leads me to believe that Joffrey is all talk. And keep in mind that as Joffrey is the crown prince, people might let him win for fear of punishment. As for his sex drive, i think he did die a virgin. Tyrion took notice of what Joffrey was doing to Sansa (not just abusing her but also humiliating her by having Kingsguard rip her clothes) and attributed it a sexual interest and wanted t take him to a brothel. But I don't think that plan ever comes to fruition and all throughout ACOK, Joffrey is prancing around either shooting people or being there as encouragement for the soldiers. So i don't think he had much time or interest then (I think he liked violence better). As for his upbringing, i think the responsibility falls mostly on Cersei, because Joffrey's beliefs andactions seemed to mirror those of Cersei's. And she never disciplines him, instead he always gets his way and other people are punished for his wrongdoings. Robert was also absent from Joffrey's life as a role model. He tried to discipline him once, but Cersei intervened. The other role model for Joffrey is the Hound. He really seems like a bad role model to be honest. Although he himself does have some potential for good, he stands for more sinister things. And there's the whole valyrian dagger thing. Who was Joffrey trying to impress? Robert or the Hound after all? I personally think the Hound. Which leads me to believe that he admires the wrong things about Sandor perhaps? And at some point Sandor could control him and dissuade him from doing stupid shit, but after he becomes King and the power goes to his head he stops listening to anyone.
  8. Sorry if I misunderstood, but when I mentioned his privileges and how his career had being on a good path, i meant that for Sandor his promotion must have had some positive impact on him. So in my mind, at that point he had less of an external reason to act in a sef-destructive manner, which he has the tendency to. letting power get to you is a valid concern, but it was not what I was talking about. The way you put it in the last post (or the way I understood) was that Sandor was deteriorating and his morals as well, that is what I disagreed with, because he shows no signs that he does, he has no biter or Gregor tendencies and his hard work has finally being acknowledge publicly and everyone can know through the position he has attained. (by joining the Kingsguard). Of course this prove to be more difficult to enjoy with Sansa being unjustly beaten. But again, I'm not talking about this part. Only that Sandor has for the first time in years to feel some sort of satisfaction in his life, because the position and status he gained is a result of his hard work (and as he tells us he really has nothing more to lose.) When I proposed some posts ago, that Sandor might have been an agent of LF, you told me that his loyalty would have no meaning and it's a big part of his character (paraphrasing), can't the same be said in this case if Sandor could choose to disobey orders anytime he didn't want to something? That's pretty idealistic, i'd assume Sandor knows the kind of job he's doing and that his own morals and ideals have no place when he's working. And of course till that point, he really has not being conflicted for a very long time I assume, until Sansa comes along. I think Brienne, believed in the same tales as well, of knighthood and heroism, but at the moment she's dealing with the conflicts and hardships that such a way of life bring. is it really fair? To use Brienne and her story as an example of true knighthood doesn't do anyone justice I think, especially if you look at where she is right now. (either being killed off by Ladystoneheart or having to betray Jaime. Can she really find a way to not betray either of them? It sounds pretty idealistic imo, so she'll probably have to choose one or the other. And again Brienne would die if she was by herself, but she isn't. She's with Pod who is also unjustly sentenced because he is travellng with Brienne. So now she has to bring Jaime to Ladystoneheart). Sandor already recognizes that he's killed innocent people while in service. He tells so Sansa and he calls himself a butcher when he's taken captive by the BwB and talks about the hypocrisy of knights. Every knight(or most) has committed atrocities(except maybe Brienne who has inexperienced and has a different mission atm), that's the way of war, that's what Sandor keeps trying to explain Sansa about the knights. So no, he's not running away or excusing himself. The thing is though that he has good points, beyond being good at killing people and being loyal, and those are the points Sansa notices and so does Arya later on. Arya's relationship with the Hound isn't only a hostile one. It starts off that way, but while Arya is traveling she sees Sandor as a person, forgets to include him in her list and when he's suffering she doesn't kill him. She says it's cause he doesn't deserve mercy but that doesn't exclude the possibility that she just can't do it. Sansa's rescue though isn't really defying any orders. If anything, he did the Lannisters a favor by saving her. They couldn't afford to lose Sansa. And again Sandor is very brave in general, unlike the other Kingsguard who were very scared and would not listen to Tyrion, Sandor isn't afraid of death (at least that's what he says). Just saying that in this case, Sandor's loyalties don't really conflict with his sense of right and wrong. (unlike say when he's ordered by Joffrey to hit Sansa too) To be honest I'm personally not that bothered with it. It's inappropriate yeah, but as I understand where it's coming from it doesn't upset me much. He was pretty brutal to Sansa about her father's death and he mocked them both, I mind that a bit more, but I still understand the reason behind it. He has issues to be honest, it's kinda difficult for people with issues (that they don't deal with) to be decent people and I believe for Sandor though conflicting feelings are more intense during the book series. (with Sansa and Arya around to challenge his way of life). But again you have to remember the state that Sandor is in. I don't know how present his father was before the burning incident, but that alone should tell you how unsupportive he was when Sandor probably needed him most. (Sandor may not be blaming him, cause let's be honest, Gregor is scary and I wouldn't be surprised if his father was scared of him as well) And then he left "home" when he was 12 to become a soldier. That's all Sandor has, he has no home or family to speak off and from what we know, he had no childhood either. I think it's a bit unfair to be offended at his lack of politeness and brash nature. (not saying it's nice, but I personally can tolerate it) Yeah, I've been thinking about his willingness to kill his brother as well. I wonder if he really wants it or not. Though I think at that moment, when he jumped in to defend Loras, he didn't want to allow Gregor to hurt anymore people. Because Sandor didn't witness the incident. All he got was, go out and kill (perhaps) the butcher's boy because he assaulted the prince. He admits to not knowing about his innocence when Arya is accusing him. Whilst in the Hand's tourney, he can see what is happening and I'm sure Gregor arouses all sorts of emotions in him (understandably so because he has suffered in Gregor's hands). Other than that I'm very curious about his real feelings towards Gregor. When he was talking with Sansa he did say "I might have to kill my brother tomorrow", so it does seem like he was preparing mentally for it or something. Well , Sandor hurt himself the most that night. He seems to brood over it, but Sansa got over it and in the end she didn't even attain so much as a scratch which is weird considering Jon did the same thing to Ygritte but he drew blood. Oh that's another thing. Really interesting how similar those incidents are and how both of the girls consider them romantic (though in Ygritte's case it's her culture) And it's funny how Sansa later on seems to be bitter over Sandor not "stealing" her. You said you have a SanSan tumblr? Can you share it? (PM me). I wanna take a look. (I wonder if I've ever come across yours )
  9. I disagree with your point. At the beginning of the story, AGOT, Sandor is what...27? 28? And he has been fighting probably since 12-14 as far as I can tell. I don't think he'd get worse. If anything, at this point in his life (after Eddard is caught), Sandor enjoys more privileges than ever before. he's Kingsguard, hasn't taken any vows, he has more status. That's fairly good for someone like Sandor who has nothing else. Does that mean he's genuinely happy? Of course not but I don't think Sandor was on the verge of turning into his brother. No fucking way. At worst he'll be self destructive, the way he is when traveling with Arya after the Red Wedding and drinking all the time. But Mycah is a nobody. he's there for a lot of things. he's there to establish Arya's and Sandor's relationship. But he's also there to show us how bad people like Mycah have it. I don't understand why people focus only on Sandor. Sandor did the deed, but behind Mycah's death are many people and they're all of noble birth. From Cersei to Joffrey and even Sansa. As Sandor later tells Sansa, he's had to kill children too. So why should Mycah have significance for him? He doesn't, but Mycah is the reason for the hostile relationship between Arya and the Hound. Sure, later on Mycah acquires a more symbolic meaning in regards to the Hound, but he represents the rest of his atrocities and how he might feel about them. As for laughing, I don't think the Sandor is laughing out of evilness. It's pretty obvious that it's a defense mechanism for him, but I think given the choice he'd never have killed Mycah. Heck, even when fighting the Mountain not once does he point any lethal blows at him as Ned points out. Why? Well one could say that his encounter with Sansa last night touched and made him more heroic. While that may not be a factor, i think the biggest reason is Sandor's own moral code or what you want to call it. When they were fighting Gregor wasn't wearing his helmet. And that's consistent with Sandor it seems, cause in ASOS Thoros of Myr tells us that Sandor would never never attack them in their sleep. Thoros seems to be familiar with Sandor from their times at melees, that was before Sandor ever met Sansa. So it seems even before he met Sansa, Sandor had his own set of boundaries. He does have obvious issues of course, but I don't think Sandor was on the verge of becoming someone like Gregor(or Rorge, who let's be honest is on par with gregor). And his instance of losing it is when he goes to Sansa's room on the night of the BotB where he's lost everything and he really has nowhere to go.
  10. For me the fact that Tyrion was framed for Joffrey's murder and believes that Sansa did it, as well as LF telling Sansa a revolting tale about Tyrion's first wife to showcase his monstrous nature, is good enough reason to consider that they might turn out to be enemies. And if Tyrion joins Dany, he's the enemy of all Westeros. It's true, it might not be important to Sansa's arc as her slaying LF would be, but given that they've been put at odds with each other I'd find it disappointing for it to not pan out one way or another. True, Tyrion has not personally harmed Sansa, but if she didn't consider him a Lannister man, she wouldn't be keeping her guard up throughout the whole marriage. She's decided on where she stands regarding Tyrion. he's a Lannister, working for the Lannisters and fighting the Starks. As far as the vision goes again, I'm not a 100% sure. Regardless, for me the biggest hurdle seems to be the inconsistency. So far no vision/prophecy has come out true twice. I don't think you can find a vision that is fulfilled twice.(as in by two different events) And the savage giant one would require just that. It's inconsistent to the rest of the visions if there's one more event that will fulfill it in the future. The incident with Sweetrobin's doll fits 100% percent, but people brush it off because it's mundane. Either way I hope you can see where I'm coming from and why it's harder for me to accept that it will be fulfilled a second time. As far as Bran's dream is concerned that confuses me a bit as well. You do have a point when you mention LF's importance in both of the girls' life. But when you look at it, it could be interpreted that the giant was looming over both of the "shadows" and not Sansa and Arya. It's there. The first shadow can easily be identified as Sandor, the second is more ambiguous. It could be Jaime but Oberyn also fits. If we accept that it's Sandor and Jaime, it's a bit harder to pinpoint the giant's identity. For Sandor it's easy enough to tell that it's Gregor Clegane for obvious reasons. But Jaime has hardly anything to do with him. If we go with a different choice, Sandor and Oberyn, then Gregor makes perfect sense. Sandor for obvious reasons again and Oberyn who was affected by Gregor's cruelty, first through his sister, and then through his own death. Gregor/Robert Strong seems to fit the description. He's referred to as a giant, he is called the Mountain which could show relation between him and stone and if that doesn't convince you there's also the fact that he does wear stone. Gregor's head also seems to have a significance for Dorne. Cersei sends the skull, after Gregor is poisoned she has Qyburn perform experiments on him to keep him alive, but it's not easy to identify if the skull really belongs to Gregor. though it a big skull. And the blood reference makes complete sense as well as Gregor is hinted to be kept alive through blood magic. At this point, Gregor is a very likely candidate for the giant in bran's vision and I do believe it's very hard to debate against it. If you want to believe that the giant is Littlefinger then that's up to you, you have a few points on why he could be, but I think the evidence for Gregor are hardly debatable. In the end t's a matter of choice. For me Gregor fits Bran's dream better. I was only trying to find some logic and consistency in the visions, that's all. If it doesn't convince you then i can't do more. You can see where I stand on the looming giant inside this very post.
  11. OP, I think you're really undermining the bond between Sansa and Sandor. Sansa isn't Cersei who values only strength and spits on weakness. Sansa has seen Sandor at his weakest and she's never turned away her face in disgust, on the contrary she has extended a hand and offered him support, understanding and word of comforts. Sansa empathize with Sandor on a deeper level. When Sandor is accompanying Sansa after the Hand's tourney, he shows her a very vulnerable and unguarded side. And Sansa truly is concerned about his well-being and tells him what he needs to hear. That Gregor is "no true knight". ThDuring the Battle of the Blackwater that Sandor is broken and he acts in that violent manner, Sansa's inctinct is to touch him and she feels a wetness that was not blood. Sandor is crying, and Sansa never judged him negatively on that. Even when she's thinking over what people are saying about the Hound's desertion, that he's turned craven, Sansa sympathizes with him and thinks that she was very scared while inside and she could not imagine how much scarier it'd be outside. I'd also like to point out that Sansa doesn't think Sandor only in terms of protection and strength. She compares many men to him, whether it's their height, voice etc. She also seems to value his honesty and the advice he gave her while she still was in KL. And finally, Sandor seems to be pushing Loras out of Sansa's fantasies and that has been happening since AGOT. Loras cheats while facing Gregor in the Hand's tourney, angering Gregor as a result who's about to attack Loras but Sandor intervenes and for once is hailed as a hero. This is an interesting comparison as appearance wise we can see who comes out on top, but look at how dishonorable Loras appears to be and how honorable Sandor proves himself to be. Then again, when she's hiding in the Vale as Alayne Stone, while trying to get Sweetrobin out of bed, he latches on her and kisses her. She decides to instead think of Loras kissing, well shit Loras ends up reminding her another kiss come one. Do I also need to mention the dream where Tyrion is on her bed and he turns into Sandor?
  12. Because he was in agony? Dude just got burned once more and he's on the ground crying. rya grabs a knife intending to kill him. If anything it looks like once again he is trying to provoke her to kill him, that's why he's referring to the people she knows and cares about. Sandor is in a lot of pain here, is it hard to believe that he wouldn't mind been put out of his misery after what he went through? We know how he feels about mercy and suffering. I could read this as a provocation. He's in a really sorry state. She's still holding the knife at this point. And as for Ned, i really don't know how he feels and it makes no sense to feel regret over his death. He wasn't the one to execute him, he didn't make the decision and he couldn't possibly do anything to save him. Also he was charged with treason. Unless Sandor knew more things and didn't find his execution justifiable, but even if that is true it is never mentioned explicitly from him and there aren't many hints either. His regret over Sansa's beating isn't explicitly stated either and I don't think Arya catches on to it, for her he's egging her on so she'll put him out of his misery. It's us who can conclude that he feels guilty and immense regret that he allowed (though he couldn't really do much truth be told) Sansa to be beaten by the Kinsguard and we can understand that because of context. first of all their relationship (that Arya has no idea of and misses hints of during her travels with Sandor) and then when he mentions the white cloak which is associated with knighthood, protection etc. So I'm not sure his regrets over Ned's execution(if he's haunted by that) are as intense as his regrets over Sansa;s beating.
  13. I was only trying to correct the person who posted, because they said that Sandor was standing there in his white cloak and regretting Ned's death. I'm not saying that Sandor was okay with it or found it justified (and I really don't know cause he's never gotten in depth about it) only that the mention of regret and the white cloak seemed to fit much more with his dying words where he does emphasize his white cloak and the regret he had towards not protecting Sansa. I was never debating the fact that Sandor witnessed Ned's execution. only that the feelings of regret he expressed where aimed at Sansa. i don't know how he truly felt about Ned. But I do think he viewed Robert somewhat favorably due to his brave nature. Hm...I think he puts the blame of Joffrey's murdered upon the incompetent Kingsguard. After all, they were incompetent, I'm sure he should have noticed. (and only getting worse with Cersei in charge) Wow, that a long time. For real? Unbelievable, that's so long. And it was what 10 chapters from the riot to Sansa thanking him? Damn. Indeed, no wonder XD. I understand it's a big point of debate whether Sandor had other intentions that night or not and I am confused myself. And then there's GRRM who says it may be different for each of them (I think when a fan had asked if the relationship between the two was platonic or romantic) so that really puts me into thought. I can definitely see the romantic context from Sansa and I think that's the point, but it also makes perfect sense to me that Sandor might not be viewing her romantically yet. He does notice that she's becoming a woman, but if he wanted something sexual during that night wouldn't he have touched her inappropriately? I think most characters make those sorts of intentions known in usually that way. Just for me it doesn't play as very sexual in nature. And then there's his confession, which part is regret which part is real and which part is egging on Arya. Are we supposed to not doubt any part of it at all? Are some parts more provocative than others? Hm..well Sandor never refers to Littlefinger in any shape or form throughout the books, does he? Wonder what he thinks of him and whether he views him the same way as Tyrion. It seems to me that from the time he decided to leave KL, he was thinking of joining the Starks. Lol, you're not fooling us Sandor. I again fucked up and didn't save my post cause I was trying to keep up with the notifications for new posts. So I might miss something. I'm familiar with what you're saying, i think there was an old thread that had pointed out similar things. Wonder if the poster might have been you again? Ya this makes sense and it's a very simple explanation, somehow it just never crossed my mind.
  14. Definitely ya, of course I wasn't claiming that Sandor felt strongly about Joffrey, only that he may have grown a sort of attachment towards him over the years and it'd definitely make more sense prior to AGOT, before Joffrey revealed his true nature in all of its shapes and forms. Surprisingly, he does not badmouth Joffrey even after leaving his service. Kind of strange, he seems like a man who has no problems expressing his thoughts regarding someone (except his real thoughts about Sansa). Hm.. well I think we can all agree that Sandor grew to care about Sansa, but he did show it in various weird ways and even insulting ways. And he was brash even when giving her advice. Wouldn't complain if we could discover what he really thinks about Joffrey and how his opinion changed from the beginning of AGOT to ACOK before leaving. But oh well, he's not a POV
  15. I'm glad you liked it! I don't quite remember what else took place before she thanked him, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa was out of sorts in a way. I mean she did almost get raped and the threat of death was very real for both of them. Then there's also the impeding battle. So it wouldn't be unrealistic that Sansa has many things concerning her at the moment. I don't know how many days passed between the riots and Sansa's encounter with the Hound. Do you happen to have a number? i can understand why she didn't thank him the same day though, must have been in shock. I would really like to know Sandor's real thought on the night of the Blackwater battle. I mean sure, he does tell Arya that she sang for him, but when he's on the verge of dying he admits that what he said wasn't true and does admit to forcing Sansa. I'd think he doesn't truly believe it the way Sansa believes the kiss happened. What i find more interesting still, is the fact that the tears and the touch of Sansa's hand to his scarred face is never mentioned by either. Like Sansa remembers everything accurately, but the kiss and doesn't mention the more intimate thing that happened in the darkness and we're in her thoughts. Sandor no way would mention it either, not in front of Arya, but I wonder if he does think of that specific moment and action. Yeah, the Hound draws conclusions again that night. When he goes there and gets close to Sansa, she believes he's going in for a kiss, but judging from Sandor reaction which is more along the lines of "Still can't bear to look at me" it seems to me that Sandor moved in so Sansa would have a better look and didn't intend to kiss her (also what kind of kiss would it be if he expected Sansa to keep her eyes open during the kiss? It makes no sense). But Sansa had in fact looked at his face, but since it's probably dark Sandor could not tell, as a result both misunderstand each other's actions. This all must be happening rather fast. Sandor telling Sansa to look at him and her doing so, then him leaning in so he can get a better look and she misunderstanding his action and he then misunderstanding her. Darkness too op. The problem with Loras, when she's trying to have a conversation, seems to be primarily because he doesn't remember. Sansa mentions the rose he gave her during the Hand's Tourney and he plays along. And I think she goes on to mention Renly which is a really touchy subject for Loras (unbeknownst to her) so he grows cold towards her.