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About velo-knight

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  1. Why there is not Baratheon POV chapter in asoiaf

    Well, our initial POVs are the Starks and Targaryens - one an exiled, defeated house; the other a house that gets defeated and exiled during the events of the series. People named "Baratheon" defeated them both, and from a narrative perspective, we can conclude that they will likely reclaim some or all of what they lost by the end - leaving little room for a Baratheon POV.
  2. I challenge you to justify supporting the Others winning

    There's...I guess, an ecological argument? IRL most human societies legally regard non-human life, even fairly intelligent life, as chattel property with extremely limited rights - just look at how unpopular even self-interested environmental protection is these days - and the Westerosi appear similar. If you're a member of a non-human intelligence, you might naturally view human being as your inherent enemy - or even have similar views, but centered on your own species. A chilling thought - that two alien intelligences can acknowledge each other's awareness, and still be set on exterminating the other.
  3. Why Tywin doesn't use Faceless men to kill Stannis

    For one, they don't need the Faceless Men to take out Stannis. For another, the Faceless Men wouldn't ask for Tyrion, or Joffrey, or any of the others. They'd ask for Jaime.
  4. Varys didn't need to disrupt the realm, because he realized Littlefinger would for him. As Littlefinger has hinted to being aware of Varys' plans, and hasn't moved to eliminate him (and Varys has taken very little action against Littlefinger, as well) it stands to reason that they are, well, "frenemies": opponents with mutual interests in the short term.
  5. Well put - I'll concede Doran does seem very determined to marry his revenge to the return of the dragonkings. It's also true that I probably wouldn't judge him if I didn't have knowledge about Quentyn and Aegon, as otherwise, in-universe his plans see to be working out. Yeah, I just don't think they and I are going to see eye to eye. I feel that they'd be right to want their money back ^^
  6. I'm not blaming Robert for rebelling - I may think it's a shame that he won on the Trident, but I think it's more a shame that Rhaegar allowed himself to get so totally outmaneuvered by his father that he couldn't seek a diplomatic solution once the rebellion was in full swing. I don't hold Rhaegar blameless, and obviously Aerys didn't leave Ned, JA, and Robert any peaceful recourse. My point is: none of that is Doran's problem. He's got a sister he loved who died horrifically at the hands of people Robert's now (literally) in bed with. I think sometimes it's easy to put blame on the Targaryens and Lannisters for everything in the Rebellion because then we don't have to face the moral ambiguity of the rebellion, or the fact that one sympathetic faction has a valid grievance against another. No, we don't know that. Barristan wasn't there when Rhaegar "took" Lyanna, and neither was Ned. Personally, I think Rhaegar wanted to warn Lyanna that his father had figured out she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and had sent men after her, and the two of them wound up fleeing, which explains both why they disappeared and why neither of them sent messages - either they couldn't, or they tried and their pursuers intercepted them. Ned never once thinks "and then Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off and didn't tell anyone and now they're dead". We have the thoughts of the one man alive in the best position to know, and all he has is this intense sadness about the whole thing - almost as if there's a big misunderstanding, something that exonerated both of them and made their deaths nothing but tragic. Nobody here says Renly is guilty of anything (other than treason and usurpation of Stannis, but that's another story). But if I steal from you, and my brother, who was a child when I stole from you, tries to inherit what I took from you after I die, are you going to be happy? After all, he's blameless in my crime - but he still wants to profit from it. Robert already crowned himself - if he hadn't, he might have been able to diplomatically arrange for the Targaryens to come home with him as a regent or something. Again, though, that isn't Doran's problem. He's got a dead family, Robert's got a crown, and Tywin's daughter is the queen Elia might have been. Arianne is A.) not very bright and B.) desperately scheming to keep her place in the Dornish succession - even after being warned that, "to crown her is to kill her". And I do agree Doran missed his shot, I just don't think Doran needed to join the Tyrell/Renly faction with a marriage alliance, since he clearly prefers Targaryens and Renly is an uncertain proposition.
  7. I believe you yourself outlined some other paths for the rebellion with your Rhaenys-betrothed-to-Robert scenario. There was no reason Robert couldn't have fulfilled Rhaegar's original plan to depose / declaw Aerys by appointing himself regent. You're right that Tywin chose to deny him those options - and Robert rewarded him for it, and was publicly indifferent to the less bloody possibilities. Irrelevant to the post-Trident hypotheticals, but you don't know that Doran believes that, and none of us could prove that ourselves. We only know what we're told - perhaps, in a generation after ASoIaF, the denizens of Westeros would believe that Ned Stark was a venal traitor who betrayed his best friend's children to put an infidel on the throne. Pretty much the only thing we actually know with regards to Rhaegar and Lyanna is that they disappeared together. People have invented all sorts of explanations for this, but nobody actually knows - for all anyone knows, they could've been sucked into a portal to Narnia. As far as I know, nobody even tried to come to a diplomatic resolution that excluded Aerys, so nobody was given a chance to address any of their concerns or explain any of the events that got them to the Trident. Robert's political problems are not Doran's concern when they're solved with the rape and murder of his sister and her children. Except trying to inherit his crown. How remarkably compassionate. I'm sure that makes Doran feel much better. And Renly's crown is built on the blood of his family, so no, I don't think that makes Doran happy. I think he sent 10k because that was the minimum he could send. I don't think Doran was that fond of Aerys, either. As for getting revenge on his own: Renly has the logistical skills of Cersei's wheelhouse and Stannis is outnumbered and preoccupied with Renly's betrayal. I doubt a forced march up the boneway and through the Stormlands would face serious opposition, and I doubt either would catch up - or even try. And Dorne was led by sterner folks that Doran, who wants to spare his people from needless suffering. Since that time, Dorne has become one with the other kingdoms, and may be reliant on their neighbors for trade. So would I, but that doesn't mean Doran - and his entire country, judging by the Sand Snake plots - doesn't want revenge.
  8. I'm not sure what our disagreement is, then. We both agree he wants revenge on Tywin. We both agree the best revenge is seeing the Lannister throne taken away. Unless Doran & Oberyn can use their new position in King's Landing to keep everyone off balance long enough for their preferred candidate to arrive. Again, calling for trials and councils to placate Stannis while secretly sending letters to Willas about Renly; offering to return Sansa and Ice to Robb on the condition that he keeps Tywin occupied, etc., Assuming Doran and Oberyn can't pull that particular juggling act off, they're still in a decent position for their dreamed-of Restoration. Whichever Baratheon brother wins in the end will likely be a kinslayer with serious stability issues (either a Usurping younger brother with little experience in war with the backing of yet another grasping high lordly family; or an unpopular, seemingly inflexible infidel whose methods of punishment might suddenly remind people of a certain deposed cousin...), neither solves the issue of Northern/Riverlands independence (and Iron Islands, too - plus, the Westerlands themselves might choose independence rather than submit to either Renly or especially Stannis). Oh, and if I'm Doran, I might be assuming the Vale hasn't jumped onboard with Robb only because of fear he can't win - yet once the Lannisters are beaten I might assume the Vale joins him, keeping the realm even more divided. Still ripe for my Targaryen savior... Isn't that kind of the point? The Baratheon brothers can't punish Doran for putting them on the Throne, and neither will a Targaryen; so once you ensure the Lannisters lose the throne, they'll be unable to get you for at least a generation. At this point, his planned-for restoration has happened, and the Martells are likely safe for at least one more generation; and by the time the Lannisters can worm their way back into royal favor, the original issue may no longer command anyone's passions.
  9. He specifically mentions that he wants to undo all of Tywin's accomplishments. That means the Lannisters can't be on the Iron Throne, and the pride of house Lannister has to be weakened. Those are the two things Tywin cares most about - and taking KL in early Clash would accomplish that, while Tywin lived to see it. Sure, but why does Doran need to care about who? It's unlikely he'll be punished - especially if he can convince the next army to arrive at KL after his that he was always on their side, or if nothing else purely motivated by personal reasons and not a threat. All the proposals to marry into one of the other factions permanently bind him to a cause that may not succeed. My point was, that instead of joining with any of the pretenders, there's a window in early Clash where he can take his revenge solo if he can work out the logistics. Then he can back the Targaryens later, if he wants. I certainly don't think they're necessarily exclusive, they just were at that moment in time.
  10. There were other paths for the Rebellion to have taken, which Doran might have liked more. You might think feel that way, but we don't know that Doran does, and if anything he's likely to have better information than us. In any case, none of this is going to be comforting to the man whose sister was brutally raped and murdered alongside her children. I'm sure this is also very comforting. Robert "only" rewarded Tywin by marrying his daughter, giving him enormous influence and power, and ensuring that Tywin's own grandson would sit the throne. It's not about blame, it's about justice. Renly and Stannis are seeking to inherit something that innately was built on the blood and suffering of Doran's family. They didn't have anything to do with it, but they can't fully repudiate it, either. That makes them his enemies. The Targaryens, on the other hand, are fellow victims and will be more than happy to give him justice, vengeance, and to publicly and frequently mention the savagery and evilness of the Sack - which makes them his friends. Yes, he did. He had more men than Stannis when Stannis set sail for Storm's End in Clash, and at that time Cersei was rightly worried that Stannis might land, take King's Landing, and orchestrate a coup before Tywin could reinforce. Doran did have the men to take the city, nobody said he needed to hold it. His mistake was in not recognizing the chance he had, and the precariousness of Tywin's position in early Clash.
  11. I'm willing to critique the man's strategy, but not to spin a "what if" where he's a totally different person. It may bother some that he doesn't hate the Targaryens - but that's the author's and the character's prerogative. I also would rather this not become a debate on the relative complicity of Rhaegar vs Aerys vs Brandon vs Varys in starting the War. Whatever else we can say about House Targaryen, they most certainly didn't profit from it, and I believe that makes the Baratheons totally unacceptable to Doran. Baratheons generations later would be innocent of the crime, but still profit from it, and justice for Elia would slip ever further away.
  12. Doran doesn't seem to care, which is the issue at hand. Perhaps he knows something we don't, or perhaps he thinks that, not knowing all the facts, he's not in a position to judge. Doran's been plotting to put the Targaryens back on the Iron Throne for over a decade, I don't think it should be controversial to note that Renly and Stannis could not be anything better than temporary allies to him.
  13. As others have said, it's not about accountability - it's about the fact that the Baratheon kings will never, can't ever, say: "hey, the events that founded our dynasty were horrible and criminal". It's why big Western countries are so terrible about properly apologizing for the enslavement, murder, and theft our wealth and nations were built on: because the minute you admit to stealing something, or to killing people while taking something, people naturally start asking if they can have it back; or if not; a substitute. No monarchic dynasty is ever going to deliberately deligitimize itself, and so the Baratheon Kings are always inferior from a "getting justice for Elia" perspective. To put it another way, Renly is wholly innocent of Elia's murder, but in becoming King as an heir to Robert, he still profits from it. Dany and Viserys would not be profiting from the murder in the same way if they were restored to power, which makes them attractive to Doran. I agree a temporary alliance would've been wise, but I still think Doran would be smarter to cut out the middleman and take his revenge himself. Then, he can pretend to be on the side of whichever claimant to the throne ultimately prevails - so long as it's not the Lannister faction. A marriage alliance to Renly is a mistake, because Renly's government is built on a very weak and narrow foundation, and Doran knows this.
  14. There are no religions in the story?

    I see this point all the time, and I just don't understand it. It seems like we're comparing the Old Gods to the ominopotent, omniprescient, timeless deity of the Abrahamic faiths - but that's not how gods have worked for a lot of different people. Gods like Zeus and demigods like Heracles are not all-powerful or all-knowing - ultimately, they're just (mostly) immortal, pluripotent shapechanging sorcerers. That doesn't make them not gods - by definition, no gods in a pantheon or animist faith will be on the same plane as the deity of a monotheistic religion in terms of theoretical powers. In fact, the Old Gods are in a sense the only gods we know actually exist - as an pseudo-immortal, claivoyant skinchanging hive mind.
  15. True, and if they hadn't been killed almost to a man and hunted across Westeros, Doran might have felt differently. Aerys was a well-known madman. What's Robert and Tywin's excuse? It's not just no qualms. The text makes it pretty clear he doesn't hold the Targaryens responsible for what happened, given that he started plotting with them - and no other faction - immediately. You don't have to hold the Targaryen dynasty in high regard here, but it seems like Doran does. If I've given offense by pointing out that the Baratheon throne is more unstable than the Targaryen one, I apologize - but from Doran's perspective, there's no reason to believe the Baratheons as a royal dynasty will last, especially since they pretty much immediately fall into a rut and their founding monarch chose to actually de-emphasize the only link to the throne besides pure force. Generally speaking, "might makes right" creates unstable regimes. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a man like Doran might have noticed this about the Baratheons and prefer the Targaryen track record instead.