GloubieBoulga

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  1. some ideas for precisions : - the green color is associated with kingship (no matter the "legitimity"), like Renly butchered by a shadow, the shadow of his own brother. The association is also with the summer season. And the shadow is strongly linked to the Others with the sword, the cold and the wind - the loyal friend is linked to horses, perhaps particularly a red stallion : Ned has a horse's face, he is the loyal friend of king Robert (another butcher butchered) whom young Renly is living portraiture in appearance; Drogo's red stallion is butchered to save Drogo and Daenerys has same kind of thinking than Catelyn saying she could butcher herself all the horses of Winterfell to make Bran open the eyes. But with Drogo, we learn that the real price for the life was a children/boy/baby of the same blood (remember that following the legends, Others as shadows have no mercy for maiden nor suckling babies);the Mountain-that-rides - the "resurrection" of the king butchered : Drogo and his queen Daenerys (threatened by bloodriders of horriible death and rape like being "impaled"); Renly and Loras (the real queen, and the price for the Lannister-Baratheon to keep the IT and to have the Tyrell's alliance is Joffrey's death.;; a boy); Cleon and the Green Grace => the "prince promised" appears as the promise of the "dead prince". And at Winterfell, what says Theon to the heart tree ? The real price wasn't paid. But the miller's sons were butchered by Ramsay - Last but not least, the connection between the "horned lord" and the Stallion (same constellation, depending if you are a wildling or a "southron"). Horn isn't only a horn to blow and produce a sound but also a ...horn : stags, rams,goats, bulls wear horns and horn is a word for a piece of antlers. For exemple, the Baratheon are horned lords and the great she-wolf at the end of first Bran's chapter had a horn in her throat, like a dagger. Question : is the horn of Joramun a blowing horn or was it a mis(single)-interpretation of the word ? Thanks to @ravenous reader for the tag; nothing to add to her intervention^^
  2. what an interesting idea ! I was yet familiar with the parallelism between weirwood and shade of the evening tree, but the black stone as a petrified tree is very new for me and the most interesting and litterarly coherent proposition I've read about it ! Thanks to @ravenous reader to have tagged me !
  3. Thanks for sharing this ! Yes, the "some other woman" has different significations (non-exclusiv) and I had forgotten this little sentence. I wonder about what could here represent Biter : the "wolf blood" seems obvious, but is it the "true" wolf blood or is it something à la Ramsay Snow (I mean the one who inherits the "wolfblood" after having stolen it) ? It would be interesting to look for the moon in this passage, and if there are also shadows, because working about the Others, I found that their 2 appearances had different circumstances : the first (Prologue AGOT), there is the moon and a wolf howling; the second (attack of the Fist and Sam's long walk), there is a bear and the howl of a baby but no moon and no wolf : it seems to me that the 2 events are telling 2 different stories with different characters. In the case of Brienne and Biter, it could effectively tell the story of a rape, before the birth of a bastard, or the legitim rape (=the marriage) with the official heir of the "wolf character" (who is greedy but had stolen the wolfblood; a kind of Joffrey, too, not only Ramsay). There is also the real cannibalism in this scene, not only the sexual symbolism, and I think that real cannibalism is a part of the story. That remains me of this quote from Cersei, when she is trying to take Robert's place with lady Taena : Giving the fact that Biter is Rorge creature/shadow/hand/dog, the question is who was behind the rapist of the maiden ? And also what kind of creature was left alone without a master ? Is it reliated to the obligation of having a Stark at Winterfell ? Edit : I re-read the whole scene behind the inn, and thank you very much to have pointed toward it. So, the fight between Rorge and Brienne is a mimic of the fight between the Other and ser Waymar. They dance, and Rorge's axe is shadow or silver when he moves it. The difference is that Brienne has valyrian steel and she can kill Rorge. The other outlaws are just looking at the show. After the fight with Rorge, here comes the 2nd "shadow", like "an avalanche" : is there an allusion to a giant ? This time this is a "wolf/dog" with lamb/ram/goat skin - Biter wears wool - which is Ramsay's like, but can also figure the attack of a ram/goat and suggests a mix between "ramblood" and "wolfblood"; or, it could also figure the use of a ram - or a boar - as a weapon. This fight could be an echo of the fight between Robert and the boar. At the end, Cersei eats the boar at a funeral feast. There is also the imitation of the second encounter with an Other : Brienne replay Smallpaul (who is described as a she-bear with her baby-Sam), sacrificing her/him to protect children, and particulary a bastard boy (Gendry/Sam who is described as a baby new born who can't walk and was rejected by his own father). Brienne want to use her dagger but she can't and succed only to open her own belly, as if it was a symbollic birthing. After her death by birthing, Gendry kills Biter, but Brienne sees only a long sword : perhaps we can read that like an echo of Nissa-Nissa dying giving birth to Lightbringer. I've made it a bit too fast. But in conclusion, I wonder if in the past, a anti-lightbringer was create, or perhaps a "darkbringer" (symbollic, I mean ^^)
  4. I think I will translate my essay about the Others, because by writing it and analysing the details, I have found many things about all that. Reading the title of the thread, I believed first it was about Dany sacrificing his child Rhaego for Drogo's life ! But there is imo a strong thematic link, because Mirri is calling for "shadows" and visibly she "paid" the shadows with Rhaego's life, and I wonder if there wasn't a "boy" anciently promised to the death, but who escaped by sacrificing the wrong person/the wrong boy. There is this quote from ADWD which suggests same kind of event (The Prince of WInterfell, ADWD): Could it be that the Others were looking for their right price for all this time ? Same question about Gilly's and Craster's child. For the sacrificed man at WInterfell, yes I think this is a bastard with wolfblood : it is suggested by the black pool at the feet of the weirwood (the black is the color of the bastard blood, symbollically, as it is repeated in the serie), the fact that there must be always a "Stark" at Winterfell (perhaps one reason is to keep the "wolfblood" by "impregnation"; but I think this is not the only reason) And for the pregnant woman, so... looking for other pregnant women in the serie helps to do hypothesis, not for the character herself but for why she appears in Bran's vision and what is her signification in the whole vision : we have 3 pregnant women, Dany who sacrifices her boy; Dalla, whom boy is saved by Jon and Gilly; and Gilly, who saves her boy (but after that, she is forced to let the boy at the Wall and saves Dalla's boy). But Jon knows nothing, and if we look attentively, Dany's and Gilly's boys were both promised to shadows. It seems it wasn't the case for Dalla's boy. PErhaps the "king's blood" is far less important than the "promised blood". To add some common point with the pregnant woman at Winterfell, Dany's boy - before being promised to shadows - was promised to avenge his mother and to be the "stallion that mount the world". So the other question could be : what kind of promise made the pregnant woman to the "old gods" by bathing in the cold black pool, what was she ready to pay for having a baby boy ? Was it her own life ? (all that makes me think to the price that the Faceless Men are requiring for the death)
  5. I knew other books of Burnett Swann, which were traduced in french : he loves greco-roman mythology and re-wrote it with a lot of intelligence, I find (in a quite similar way than antic authors were doing it); he understood very well how anti-dogmatic greco-latin mythology is. Funnily, he has the same traducer in french than GRRM for ADWD and the next books.
  6. And perhaps with Rhaego's soul in his body: that could explain why Rhaego is dead and also why Drogo actslike a new born baby
  7. (for a little while, I wonder if Littlefinger will die eating a lemoncake/lemon pie, and if the following quote could foreshadow the killing power of lemoncakes :
  8. Now, I have far better pay attention to the theme sharp/shaggy, and I think I found some things. 1- "sharp" is reliated to the Others in the prologue not only with the sword but a second time with the cold butchery : Curiosly (and funnily), if you take Bran's reflexion when he goes down to the crypts with maester Luwin and if you eliminate the context, you have the phrasis : Others were shaved clean, their features gaunt and sharp-edged as the iron longswords across their laps. Others are also described as "gaunt", so you have a perfect depicture of Others... of stone. Just to continue the link between Others and "sharpness", you have also Bronn, described as a shadow, gaunt and with a sharp sword. Same thing with Sandor Clegane and ser Ilyn Payne. In fact, they all three are the shadowy "hand" and "sword" for some other character : Bronn for Tyrion, Ilyn Payne for the king and almost queen Cersei and Sandor Clegane for Joffrey, but Sandor is deviated and changes his allegiance. With the 3 of them, there is also a strong part of predation, especially for "maiden". Sandor Clegane's ambiguous way with Sansa is well known; ser Ilyn far less, but Sansa is very ambiguous with him : The door opening and creaking reminds the door in Aeron Greyjoy dreams, and what Sansa murmures (I'll be good) is exactly the same than Jeyne Poole when Theon and the spearwives find her naked and hidden in the furs. Jeyne rythms with pain, also. And for Bronn, he marries the pregnant Lollys and eliminates her mother Tanda and sister Falyse, which makes him only lord of Stokeworth. 2. Sharp is reliated to birds : If we look to sharp-features characters, you have : - Benjen the crow - LF the mockingbird - Stannis who have a curious and apparently out of context story with a bird : haha, and the "red hawk" is now Melisandre who uses/creates shadows to kill Stannis' ennemies. Also the same who wants to sacrifice a bastard boy because of his "king blood" ("the seed is strong"). Stannis is also symbolically reliated with the "sharp" lords of Winterfell when Donal Noye compares him to the iron, that's like the iron swords in the crypts. - Bronn also is a kind of "cuckoo", kind of birds who invades the nest of other birds and steal it I have two more very interesting quotes, but no more time for long and detailed comment : Here, there is the connection between the crown and the wound, the same that lays in the Iron Throne (described by Ned as "sharp") which can kill. The idea could be that the "crown of the north" (or the winter crown") is lethal for the Starks of Winterfell The other quote is from Arya's chapter : (Arya III, AGOT) What is interesting is that the reader can easily deduce that the beasts are the old dragon's skull, but the text doesn't speak of dragons. Instead, you have a little reference to Winterfell's crypts, and also to Jon's recurrent dream, when he goes down to the crypts and feels that something don't love him here. This Arya's chapter tells also about bastards : the cat "black bastard" described as "the real king of the Red Keep" that Arya is pursuing; and when she is in the caves, searching to the issue, she hears Varys and Illyrio coming, and their first words she can hear are "... found one bastard". Here, the entire quote :
  9. P.S. @GloubieBoulga This quote (above) may interest you, especially in light of your evolving thoughts on the sacrificed wolf maiden and/or child you mentioned earlier. Thanks Ravenous ! And also the quote about Varamyr casting maiden with his shadowcat is interesting me. Varamyr is also the one who wanted Ghost and thought that a direwolf would be a very royal animal for a second life. Just to precise : it's not a wolf maiden but a bear maiden that I see (but I can be wrong about it) : this is the lover who is a wolf, and a wolf bastard => which is conducting us (with Sansa) to a surprising and unexpected Jon-Sansa couple. I now wonder if it could be an end for them, even if I find more clues for a Sansa-Tyrion ending there are some for a Sansa-Jon. I was developping a bit the sequence with baby Sam saved from the hunted Other by a pair of bears (Grenn and Small Paul), and without making the connection with Ned saving baby Jon, the black bastard. But now that conducts me to figure a third woman (a maiden ? or a maiden-and-mother figure ? Or a mother figure ?) : the bastard's mother. With perhaps the possibility that there were many bastard's mother with many bastard babies who were sacrificed... and eated at the table of a certain king of Winter. (Cersei in AFFC thinking to Robert : "I was eating your heirs"), before one of them was saved (why this one ? Who was his mother ?). Around the Bolton, we have this kind of "bastard's mother" (real or symbollic) : Barbrey Dustin, the 2 miller's wives (the mother of Ramsay, and the mother of the 2 boys that Theon ordered to kill instead Bran and Rickon, with the ambiguity about Theon possibly fathering one of the 2 boys), and a feast with Walder's sons as meat. I believe I will re-thinking all the Lyanna's stuff, and also all my little narrative shemes (that's a kind of puzzle without ending )
  10. Concerning Tyrion and the shadowcat, and most particulary the chapter where he recruits the clans of the Mountains for his service, I noted very interesting things : - first, with Bronn, he makes a fire. - second, they put a goat in the fire to eat it - third, Tyrion sings a myrish song (the song of Tysha) - forth, Bronn is sharpening his sword (there is a metal sword/knife/dagger) At the end of the chapter one of the clans says : "Little boyman," Shagga roared, "will you mock my axe after I chop off your manhood and feed it to the goats?" All this made me think to Varys' story, when he was lost his manhood, given to fire by a warlock who wanted to invoke something - for Varys, the "something" is a shadow whithout identity, because he didn't see it or don't remember, but it has a voice unforgettable. The magician was singing in myrish during the invocation. And with that in mind, I saw what Tyrion was doing in the mountains : he was also invoking some shadows to help him. Obviously, no real shadows, but the fire, the smoke of the meat and the song are here to make the clans come. The blood is missing, though : No blood, no wine, what a shame ! After the invocation, Tyrion sleeps : And the invocation is a success : the shadows are responding ! Shadows with voices. After that, the presentations begin, and Tyrion promises to pay them Little ritual for casting a shadow explained by Tyrion (parenthesis : i think we find same ritual with Mirri Maz Duur "healing" Drogo, and probably Moqorro healing Victarion) But why the shadowskin in Tyrion's case ? I have no answer, but for me, the most probably is that he is replaying a ancient story where a shadowcat plaid a part. I wonder if the shadowcat could play the same part than the boar in Robert's last hunting. When Tyrion wants wildfire, it is for killing a mass of people. When he recruits clans of the Mountain, he wants also a revenge against Lysa and her suitors : the intention is also to kill people blindly, no matter who they are (= the Vale is full of peasants who just don't even know Tyrion)
  11. The connection with horses is also strong with Daenerys, though I don't thing that's links physically the Targareyn to the Stark, but I have the intuition that Daenerys is replaying some part of the ancient Stark Story (before Winterfell), and perhaps in my schema, I had forgotten one feminine character. That's the fate, yesterday I was just re-reading Robert's death and I was stroken by this : No horse here (except if there is a pun with "hoarsely"), but the reader knows the link between Dany and the horses, and with Lyanna too. Several times in this scene, Robert Says "the bastard" instead of "the boar" (remembering that Rabert has some bastards he don't care, and also that a cat is the "real king of the red Keep" and is called "the black bastard" by a guard) ; with "the girl" Dany became also anonym, as if the important "girl" was another one, the mother of another bastard, an ancient bastard (Robert ordered to kill Daenerys because she was pregnant). Ti finish, the "bastard" is served at the funeral feast, but I really wonder if real bastards in the past wouldn't be served at the table of a king, the king of Winter. In the schema of King RObert, I believed from several months that he was playing the part of a bear king, but I very very recently changed my mind about it to see RObert the hunter as a new king of Winter (and a wolf). That's another connection with the feast of the dead at the HOTU So, to resume, I have the intuition of the horse as symbolizing the ancient mother of a black wolf bastard (my computer is desperatly slow this morning, I can't stay no longer)
  12. Concerning the horses, there is a strong connection with the Stark : a long horse's face is their physical sign; is it like silver hairs for Targaryen ? All Starks don't have horse's faces, nor Targ have blond hair. I don't know yet exactly what to do with. There is also the "girl in grey flying on a dying horse", or the Other mounted on dead horses (and Dywen having the idea to use dead horses to mount too, which not enjoys Dolorous Edd who said that next step will be use the dead people who won't have any possibility to sleep quietly - Sam II, ASOS). In christian mythology, the 4rth rider of the Apocalypse is the death (sickness and hungriness) on a pale horse. The Other from Sam's chapter imitates this rider, and there is also the "pale mare" who brings at Meereen sickness and death from Astapor. So the horse figure seems to be ambiguous
  13. In fact, the parallelism between Others and wolves is in their "use" : as @ravenous reader said, they are both weapons. No matter ice or fire, cold or warm, those are not opposite, because "the earth is one", and the ice can burn like fire (and obsidian is "frozen fire" in valyrian language). For me, the difference between ice and fire describes two different states of the same thing, or it can also be a false and a true thing : if you prefer, the shadow is the imitation of the real living; or, it is also the "essence" but not "incorporate", not solid. That's why a real shadow is cold (Melisandre's black shadows are cold too) = Stannis can be in the same time innocent and guilty from the death of his brother Renly So wolves are not Others, but the parallelism could show that they tell a part of the same story = a "wolf" (or most probably the "shadow of a wolf" = a "false wolf") was used as a weapon to kill someone I wasn't thinking to a particular narrative schema, but I'm actually working about the Others and the context of their appearance, and the link with the greenseers is made with some elements (there is always at least one of them) : the wind (this one is a constant one), whisperings in the trees (consequence of the wind), and the whisper of the leaves (consequence too). Because in the prologue, the howl of a wolf and the moon precedes the appearance of the Others, I was waiting for other howls and moon before their other appearances, but that's not the case : at the Fist, and during Sam's chapter, it's the plaint of a baby. BUT... before the fist, the Watch stopped at Craster's hall, where there was the "maiden" pregnant Gilly, and the affair with Craster giving his male children to the "cold gods", in the woods. Sam himself, during his chapter where he kills the Other, is no more a "moon face", but a baby who can't walk. So Small Paul carries him as if he was the mother (a bear mother, he is so hairy and had an axe like the bear mothers Mormont ^^ !), plus he sacrifices himself : "mother Small Paul" receives in her the sword of the other (like a Nissa-Nissa), so "child Sam" has "time" to take courage and avenge his mother. After that, Sam can walk, like a child who is learning to walk and is no more a baby. To resume, at the Fist and after, there are no moons and no wolves (Jon leaves long before the attack), but there are dead bears and babies. I'm still working, so I can't say yet if all is telling different stories, or different parts of the same, or different stories, but it seems to me that there are 2 different "woman paradigm" : a mother(who was a maiden before being a mother) and a maiden(who became a mother), and probably both were loved by the same greenseer. Perhaps, in terms of icy/fiery, one was a fiery maiden and icy mother, and the other the reverse (icy maiden becoming fiery mother) Clarissa Clarissa ! I don't know if the mother of the "first (stark) greenseer" was a children of the forest, I didn't study the point !
  14. Yes, that's what I wanted to demonstrate = ther real reason for LF to kill Jon Arryn is not to provoke a war between Lannister and Stark, but to save his own interest. That's also why I noted that Jon Arryn and Stannis had discovered what he really did. Accusing the Lannister is - at the beginning - only the "bonus", the occasion to create a bit confusing situation (confusing for Varys essentially), as we can see when he first intercepts Catelyn at KL. But surely, after viewing Cat and Ned, and above all Sansa, the Stark became preys for him.
  15. Yes, but why now and why not later or before ?