GloubieBoulga

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  1. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    @Pain killer Jane, thanks for your great post ! Indeed, now it's morning for me, and I'm not tired like yesterday night, I can add some little things : the Garden of Gehane with the ghost grass is obviously an allusion to the Others beyond the Wall (and fire is required to "purify" : glass candles anticipate here the Sam's obsidian dagger, I think, but not exclusively : there is perhaps also an allusion to Quaithe) This makes me thinking to Catelyn after she has killed Jinglebells : After her death, Catelyn is thrown to the river, naked. In fact, it is not the first time that GRRM uses some mini-stories to anticipate some future event. For example, Yoren, once, "predict" to Arya the fate ot the Mountain, the Hound and Catelyn : If need, I will developp in the thread "moments of foreshadowing"
  2. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    (Obviously, I agree, the pleasure of reading GRRM is growing with our own knowledge of his references. The interest of his litterar projekt depends also of all these references. In fact, I see that I didn't very well precise my thoughts : I think the references aren't necessary for our theories, to understand the plot and to try to anticipate the future events : the built of the saga is so coherent that we don't need it. But yes, if we want to study the saga in a litterar context, in a historical context (aso...), in the perspective of studying litterar creation, study these references is essential ^^ I can assure that ignoring Yggdrasill or Odin doesn't make the weirwoodnet understandable : in France, we aren't familiar with Norse mythology, even when we know Wagner's Tetralogy very well, but we have the text of the saga to appreciate and well understand the mysteries of the weirwoods and the weirwoodnet. You are just like a child who is discovering a totally new thing for him assimilates it : obviously, it is easier and faster with knowledge of Yggdrasill, but the other side of the stuff is that we have already some shemas with our knowledges and we are (un)consciently waiting some issues which are conforms to these schemas ^^ I would want also precise that I think possible a metaphoric/symbollic reading without external references, and thanks to @ravenous reader to recall this example that illustrates perfectly what I want to express : All the symbollic is here made with internal references : the Rat Cook story/the mouth of the weirwoods/the Wall as an ice dragon/aso... Obviously, external references make it richer but the sense remains internal (says the one who had studied Sansa's character throw the archetype of Snow-White ). All I mean is that external references are the instruments/ingredients, not the goal. I stop here, the debate is very interesting, even in disagreing on some points, but we will go out of topic) I don't totally agree with the interchangeability of fathers/sons/brothers, because precisely the cycle of the seasons goes wrong in the world of Planetos. If it's not regular, what makes the seasons change ? Why can be a "false spring" not followed by summer but by winter ? What the reason for a summer of 9 years, and another of 2 years ? What makes them so unpredictible ? I mean, Stannis is not Robert's son and Robert is not Stannis nor Renly's father, but Rabert choose Ned as brother and is a king/castrating father for his bloodbrothers. Same with Tywin, who is a castrating father for all his brothers, sister and his children (even Cersei feels castrated). Characters and their interactions are centrals in the saga, not the archetypes : archetype have no evolution, but characters have and change. Renly is a green-king archetype at some point, but he has got a grey army in the same time. Robert's fertility is "deregulated", excessive, but his couple with the queen is sterile in the same time. Ned Stark is a "winter king" but he makes his children free to grow and give them the ability to survey and to live, like the association to the "king's justice" or the acceptance of the direwolves (= he is fertile). I'm not sure how to interprete all that : perhaps Ned isn't a real "winter king" and was forced to be one. Perhaps Robert wasn't a real father/king (neither "summer king" nor "winter king") but was forced to play this part; perhaps he was only a real "summer child". Yes, GRRM refere it to the biblic Gehenna valley. Originaly the location where was relagated "idolic cults", amongst them one god to whom some kings sacrified their eldest sons by fire; after that, according to the bible, it was a stinking dump with permanently fires (to eliminate the wastes and "purify" the location). And it received a metaphoric sense : a location for souls of sinners, who suffered here the fire and were purified before quite this valley. With greek influence and christianism, it became a synonym for inferno : in other terms, it was no more a "passage" but a location where sinners souls remained for eternity. I think the reference to Gehenna's valley is explicite with the proximity of the mention of glasscandle who burns and with the ghost grass. As it is associated with the return of dragons, I think GRRM uses here the biblic reference to suggest the part of the dragon in his saga = "purify the sinners with fire". The reference arrives after Undying burned : by burning and definitly killing them, Drogon re-established a natural order = men and women are mortal and are made to be mortal. (But Xaro enumerates other "exceptional facts", and I think there is some emphasis and humour in the list. That makes me think to look at this a bit more.) So yes, the biblic Moloch (the god whom were sacrified children) can be used to explore the references of GRRM, but not the "historical" Moloch (if he really existed, which isn't attested actually with archeology nor history : the Bible is our unic and oldest source for Moloch^^) Sorry, I had much more to answer but my previous post disappeared.
  3. The Others: Why now?

    Thanks for cheking a lot of different theories about the "return" of the Others. For me, no one is totally convincing, but that is obvious that GRRM let some trails which conduct to these different conclusions, probably because some elements have a link with the Others (even if they aren't a cause for their "waking up"). That make thinking a lot ! Without having an answer yet, I like this explanation : Not for the same reason, in fact. I had read a theory about the possibility that Rhaegar's silver harp was buried with Lyanna. The theory was seducing (but i'm unable to find it now and to recall the arguments, I will looking for it), and imagining that the harp could be "magical" (=being impregnated with Rhaegar's blood, for example, like the horn Dragonbinder must be impregnated with blood to link a dragon to a specific person), the "song" of the harp (a living part of the soul of Rhaegar ?) could have waken the Other by penetrating the earth and almost the weirnet. i confess, it is an idea I improvised just now, I have not yet obvious textual elements to support (only some analogies). So don't take it as a truth ^^. But I keep it in mind to explore this way... one day !
  4. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    In fact, I was answering to a question Unchained adressed to me, but I wrote about my defiance by using too deeply mythologic figures ^^ His question was about Ramsay's sable cloak, and I think that this "sable cloak" doesn't need the mythology to be understood - the text is sufficiant in se, with interns references. I have a metaphore which can explain my feeling about GRRM's obvious influences : a musician for a symphony will use many instruments that already existe and that other musicians have used before him (sometimes, new intruments are invented, on the basis of ancient who are transformed). GRRM's influences are these instruments : how they play together and how they are used in the music can help to understand the whole thing. Studying the construction and the story of the instruments - even if it is a very interesting subject - doesn't help to understand the music. And with mythology - because we love stories and they are a strong part of our own inner world - we are always tempted by fascination for mythology and stories. But perhaps I'm just expressing my own fear and +temptation... and carefullness I totally agree with that. After, I'm not convinced with Ba'al/Moloch/Saturn/Cronos, because these "deity" wasn't originaly the sames. Moloch isn't historically nor archeologically attested and could be an invention of the Bible. The others - as I have said - were artificially assimilated one with the other by "intellectual elites" of the greek-roman empire. They became very very tardively popular figures, when greek-roman mythology was learnt at "school" and mixed with bible's myths (so from end european middle-age to 19th and 20th centuries) and used in litterature/music/arts in general, and allmost when the majority of people learnt to read. But if you use Cronos as the archetype of the father eating and smothering his children, so yes, you will find this figure in all patriarcals traditions and socials structures - what is the feudal system in ASOIAF - because this is the "nature" of the patriarchy : as the all-powered-father use violence against his children, the children have to use violence to cut the link and to "make the man be grown" (a second birth in fact, the more often to became a new Cronos). And it is interesting to see how it works in the saga, and if there are differents issues or variations for this archetype (in other words, I try to pay attention to the music of the instrument, without regarding the instrument^^). Note that the smothering mother is also a part of this structure - like Daenerys keeping her dragons under the pyramid as a maternal belly, or like Cersei keeping her sons in their chambers or in the Red Keep (and strong desiring having a cock and being a male) and punishing Tommen who wants to be present at the small council or sit on the IT, or even like Catelyn dreaming of recovering her daughters and keep them with her at Winterfell to live an eternal mourning. Tywin or Craster are some avatars of Chronos, greedy and sit at the top of a mountain full of their "defecations" (gold for Tywin, mudd for Craster). We find also same echoes with LF : around his castle in the Fingers, there so much sheep's shit that the house could be construct on a "mountain" of sheep's shit (Sansa VI, ASOS. for the reference) It seems to me that GRRM's purpose is that children break down father's and mother's order without being punished for that, and almost without reproducing same schema after that. In other words, to be free from "puppet's string". I agree with you that find the mythological archetypes can help to find some elements of the original theme. In the perspective of the Grey King and the Green King, I don't think they are the original theme (which is specifically a Stark theme), but variations; after reflexion, if the hypothesis of one killing the other places the both in position of the children (the two sons of a "king"; and I agree with you for the fact that there is a third brother in the story, which is a difference with Abel and Cain), both are in the same time strong paternal characters with their very numerous children : Robert Baratheon has the same kind of uncontrolled fertility. Robert has 2 brothers, but he is not a brother for them, he is a father/a king. Renly and Stannis are his heirs as if they were his children. But Robert has a brother : Ned Stark. So, if you make the hypothesis that Green Garth and Grey King were brothers, a paternal figure is also missing. To go further, Robert Baratheon (a Garth archetype) is killed by his wife, the queen (a Mother archetype ?). And Cersei captures Sansa (a Maid archetype), the blood of Ned Stark (a Grey King archetype), to give her to her son Joffrey (a warrior... or a Stranger archetype as true bastard ?). Varys suggests that Ned was responsible for Robert's death, but we know that is a lie and a manipulation from Varys who is playing with Ned's sense of guiltiness. In Stannis's and Renly's story, Stannis (a Grey archetype during Catelyn's chapters at Storm's End) kills Renly (a Green Garth archetype) but after that captures a bastard son of Robert. His daughter seems to be lost because of the greyscale, not active yet, but who will became active with the puberty, according to Val (is it a way to suggest that she is already "married"/"promised" to the Grey King ? But in that case, who is the real Grey King ? Is Shireen symbolically married to her father, or is she an "offer"/a "price"/ a "prey" for another Grey King ?). Funny that GRRM creates and uses many different mythologies to tell us differents parts of an original story^^ Thank you very much !
  5. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    @Unchained In fact, I would be very carefull with all mythologic parallelism, because we risk to go to far and finally loose GRRM's text, even if GRRM's imaginary is obviously fed with Bible, norse mythology, tales, Shakespeare and so many other sources, because he is a very huge reader. For Moloch, we have only the Bible to describe this god and make him a kind of demon who tardively and strongly inspired Lucifer's christian character : christians followed the "kabbale's Satan" (but the writing/composition of the kabbale seems to begin in the same time that apocalyptic litterature - christianism being a branch of judaism - and majors texts of the Kabbale were written during middle age), or to be more precise, there was a mutual inspiration. Tardively also, Moloch was associated with the punic Ba'al (but there is also a "baal"/"beel" in semitic area who serve to qualifie "god", and who was sometimes also employed to designate YHWH, like in the word "baalshem" - "servant of god". That could explain why there was this assimilation between Moloch and Baal). In Middle age, the christian church practiced systematicly the transformation of ancient gods and cult, turned in demon's cult and god, like does Melisandre; and in the same time, the priests practiced the assimilation with saints (and created saints if it was needed); the romans practiced the same, but with less attention and less interest, so Saturn was assimilated to Baal. But the archeology isn't even sure that a god called Moloch really existed, because no proof was found. The punic Baal Hamon is attested but not human children sacrifices. Some stories about these gods recalls greek mythology, like the Minotaure, and the most probably is that greco-latines put their own mythology on religions that they badly knew (and wasn't interested to know well, to tell the truth : basically, the assimilations/identifications of the differents gods to greco-latines mythology and to the "divine emperor" was a way to facilitate the integration in roman empire and to say "see, your gods look like romans, so you can also be romans). So, if we want make comparisons between "Moloch" "Baal" or Saturn, it is useless to look for their "real" and ancient mythology. The characters of the two first seems similars to Saturn, but yes, it was a voluntary and artifical antic assimilation from some antics romans writers. Even the roman Saturn was transformed in the greek Chronos, when roman elites began to admire and imitate Athenian culture, but wasn't basically the same god. So we must be very very very carefull using mythologic references : imo, that's great when we are looking for GRRM's influences (and take mesure his huge curiosity and capacity of assimilation !) but the saga itself remains an original creation, with a new and original mythology with his own system. I don't know if I'm clear, I'm sorry for my english which limits what I would want to express ^^ PS : to say it simply : as GRRM doesn't rewrite Tolkien nor Shakespeare nor Jordan nor Lovecraft nor many others, he don't rewrite mythologies: he writes is own, and all can be explained without knowing all the influences (and there is the sign that GRRM is very good, when all the work is invisible when we read - at least at the first read ^^)
  6. Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?

    Good catch ! I had read this post but I had forgot it. And after my post, I have remembered another troubling episode about a possible "skinchanging", which concerns Daenerys : One of the french forumers suggested once that it was Euron (the blue lips) penetrating Daenerys' dreams with glasscandle. But perhaps it goes farther than that. Coming back to the Royce, I suspect a story "à la Lancel Lannister"/"a la Hugh of the Vale"/"a la Jaime" : a lover of the queen who kills/helps to kill the king and whom children are officially the king's children and heirs. Royce's silence would be pay with a runic armour (I don't no if there is a wordplay here, but each time I read "armour", I read the french "amour" who significate "love" and that the english kept in the word "paramour") By the way, GRRM is like a musician who composes some motives/themes and declines them on many variations and combinations. The game for the reader is to find the original theme ^^
  7. Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?

    We are on the same line about the "magic blood" (for the Gift of the CotF) given to 9 "kings" (I prefer saying lineage, without knowing if the "magic blood" made the kings, or if the fact being "kings" amongst men permitted to receive the Gift). Possibly also, in that perspective, that ancient Stark had captured the "magic blood" of the Bolton, and that Bolton became flayer (of wolves) to recovery this magic blood (and that thing was forgotten with time). The perspective is also interesting because Stark are associated with many "animal types", not only the wolves : birds, bears, sheeps/lambs/goats/ram, shadowcat, horses (?), weasel ; but officialy they are only the "wolfblood". All that the wolfblood isn't originally in the veins of the Stark of Winterfell (it was stolen and kept "prisoner" in the weirwood of Winterfell), but the other "animals blood" really flow in their veins (throw their true parentage). This episode sounds like a bloody wedding : Ramsay and Reek were raping a girl, but the real couple is Ramsay and Reek. Like further Reek/Theon + Ramsay + fArya. Same schema with Renly+Loras+Margaery. And also, I suspect, for Littlefinger + Sansa + Harry Hardyng. I mean that it could be an echo of another old Stark's secret : the greenseer Brandon Stark could have skinchange his brother (the king) to bed with the maid he loved and who was married to the king, like at one moment Bran is tempted to skinchange Hodor to touch Meera.
  8. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    Yes, that's true, but I'm now wondering if they don't represent the 3 heads of the dragon. I mean that Daenerys could have need these three death to make a entire dragon. For me, that's because Drogo's soul went inside Drogon during the pyre, and Dany anticipate this in her dream, like she anticipates the waking of the dragon. Yes, vision of Winterfell, very true. But in the same time, dragons are not only "winged beast" but also "chthonic" beasts : they come from mountains, Targaryen had chosen the site of Dragonstone for their house and dragon's egg were kept inside the mountain like a mother's belly, Valyria was a land of mountains too... Normally, at this point, we come back to the Wall as an Icedragon
  9. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    @LynnS That's the first time I think to reliate Daenerys's red door with the "black gate" and the Wall, because of the insistant dichotomy beyond/behind (and also the red color who remind the red sap of the weirwood, red as blood). That's very interesting and reinforce the link between the Stark and the Targaryen. I always wondered if queen Alysanne made some dragon's dreams in which she had identified the North and the Starks. [Note also that in this Dany's dreams, we find again the trio Viserys-Rhaegar-Rhaego who appears in a vision of the HOTU (I had totally forgotten that this trio had a first appearance ): So the visions could resume the life of the dragon from the birth to the "death" End of parenthesis]
  10. Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?

    Tywin get out this body !! More seriously, I see here another way to link the thematics of the Lannister with the Bolton... and the Royce.
  11. Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?

    They have perhaps same blood origin, I mean they could be same family of wolves hunters and once - for one particular reason - one young brother established his own lineage (in that configuration, the Royce family could be the youngest lineage). I don't know, but in the present of the saga, the theme of the armor, the squires, the hunt and the death of a king are linked and perhaps there are here some clues if not answer. For example, Hugh of the Vale, the young Jon Arryn's squire, after Jon's death, receives a magnificent armor and is made knight. Sadly he is killed by the Mountain. Curiously, Varys suggests to Eddard Stark that Hugh was the one who gave the poison to Jon Arryn, ordered by someone, and killed to ensure his silence. Other squire to explore a little the squire's theme : Lancel Lannister who gives the poisoned wine to Robert during the hunt. Robert is hunting a white huge stag - a royal symbol - but finds only the horns (= Robert bears horns instead a crown), before finding his proper death in a fight against a boar. After Robert's death, Lancel becomes queen's Cersei Lover and is made knight; and after Blackwater battle, Lancel receives lordship of Darry and a wife to begin his own lineage. The other Robert's squire - Tyrek - is married to a baby, the heir of the house Hayford, but he mysteriously disappears during the riot of KL. Following the schema, we could wonder how the runic armor went to Royce family and what kind of service a Royce could have offered and who he served. I'm hesitant with the sable cloak : for me, it is a sign of luxury that Waymar exhibites (like Hugh of the Vale exhibites his new armor and cloak at the Tourney of the Hand), and that is noted by Will and Gared, who have a very low origin. So I take it as an echo of the runic armor, a kind of relic that Waymar keeps with him to remember his origin.
  12. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    Rickard Stark burning in his armor when Brandon (the wild wolf) is trying to escape and save his father can match, I think.
  13. In french, we say "le cadavre dans le placard" (= the corpse in the cupboard), yes, this is exactly my basical idea, but with more than one corpse concerning the Starks ^^. And yes, I think that they ignore this fact, and they probably never knew the real secret, except their first greenseer which I will call Brandon Stark the Builder for commodity (I mean the Brandon Stark who "built" the Wall and Winterfell). When Daenerys is at the HOTU, she is called "slayer of lies", and for me the ultimate lie is obviously this lie of the Starks (=the stonebeast taken wings and breathing shadow fire, in a smoking tower). But let's go to the second point of our exploration. We have seen how a kin(g)slaying was reliated to the Starks, and we will now looking at the kin(g)slayer(s), beginning with Euron Greyjoy. 2.THE KIN(G)SLAYER So, I have chosen Euron because his imagery is the most obvious, but I'll first establish his responsability in Balon Greyjoy's death (who was his brother and his king), just for recall. This is the first mention of what will happen with Balon : the woman at Highheart has green dreams, and as we can recognize in the "shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag" Stannis's shadow killing Renly, we can say that the visions are very concretes : so, the "man without a face" represent a faceless man; the "drowned crow with seaweed..." perched on the shoulder oft the faceless man is Euron, as his sigill is a crow, his nickname is "Crow's Eye". "drowned" and "seawed hanging from his wings" alludes to the Drowned God, the religion of Ironborn (it isn't an identification to the Drowned God, but an element to confirm that the "crow" is an Ironborn), and perhaps also the fact that Euron is on the sea when Balon dies, so he can have an alibi. Confirmation of the alibi in AFFC : Euron make also an allusion to the price he gave to Faceless men for Balon's death : In this dialogue, we learn that he tried to wake a dragon in his egg but failed : he had heard the tales about Daenerys and her dragons from the warlocks he captured near Qarth. So if Euron doesn't mind jewell or other treasure, he wants very hardly what can give him great power. And dragons represent for him Targaryen, but almost Valyria's empire and the power of the dragonlords. Giving a dragon's egg (=renouncing to a "valyrian crown") to obtain the death of a king brother (and his crown) seems the kind of deal that Facelessmen practice : when Arya in ACOK saves 3 lives (Jaqen, Rorge and Biter), Jaqen says her that she must give 3 death in exchange (Chiswyck, Weese and Jaqen). The presence of a Faceless man at the Citadell under Pate's identity, in Marwyn's entourage (and having access to forbiden part of the library) could be a confirmation that FM are interested by dragons. After all, their religious order was born throw Valyria's slaves and they can "fear" a return of dragons and dragonlords. But back to Euron. What is the link with the Starks ? First the "Crow's Eye". Far before the baby direwolves were found, Bran was linked to the crows at Winterfell : "Leap", that the word used by Euron when he says to Victarion that before flying, we leap : It seems that Euron didn't dare to leap - and fall as Bran - at least physically. But it is possible that he give a metaphoric sense to the word : drinking shade of the evening is a manner to leap in dreams, and sailing to Meereen to conquer the dragonqueen seems another way to leap before flying, as he suggests it to Victarion, sending him to Meereen with the Dragonbinder. And obviously there is the third eye : I won't re-write what many people have already writen about the parallelism between shade of the evening and what Bran eat before connecting to the weirwood. I'll just insist on the crow's theme : the red eye on the sigill recalls the eyes of the weirwoods who are yet opened; Euron has one eye hidden, as an echo to BR (and Crowfood Umber, also), but he hadn't lost it : the hidden eye is black as a crow's eye, when the other eye (the "smiling one") is blue - as the Other's eyes, perhaps ? In the first Prologue, we see and ear the Others laughing before Waymar's slaughting. Euron is literaly a mocking crow, and he also appear like a puppeteer in this metaphor : This time, Euron is compared to a cracken, but with the black color of the crows. I use to see here a foreshadowing for Euron skinchanging his brother Victarion and stealing his body after he has stolen his wife, his victories and his men. The link between Euron and the Stark isn't a "global" link, but here, he appears like a variation about a Stark greenseer. The fact that he is a kin(g)slayer let us thinking that a Stark greenseer was also a kin(g)slayer at the origins of the Starks. What I call the "bird character". To try this hypothesis, I have looked after other kinslayers and kingslayers in the saga to determine if they had the same characteristics. And the answer is : yes ! But not all. - Stannis : he has a thin connection with the birds when he tells this tale to Davos : We learn that Stannis was in fond of a bird he had nursed. As Bran dreaming to be a knight and being broken, Stannis was dreaming to have a proud and valiant hawk but had only a weak one. And he was jealous of his elder brother for that. Another interesting detail, which connects Stannis to the greenseer, is an allusion he makes after Renly's death, to a possible accusation : So Stannis isn't a bird nor a skinchanger or a greenseer, but as a kin(g)slayer, he is connected to this theme. As Euron and Bran, he is a second son. Donal Noye says also about him that he is like iron "black and hard and strong, but brittle", "iron" like Euron, "black" like a crow, "brittle" like was the boy Bran. "Hard and strong" like Stark ? ^^ - And the following winners are Littlefinger - the mocking bird - and Varys - the spider with his little birds. I must leave now, so I will synthetize their bird's theme in a following post.
  14. OMG ! I just realize now the connection with our little Bran Stark ! (I will read your theory about Baelor the blessed) edit for Baelor : Interesting, I think, no ? As I'm here, I have had another new idea for the snowed Winterfell (it is a bonus interpretation, and doesn't contradict the others interpretations) : all the scene can also tell us the story of a child conception, and at the end, the child kills his parents and destruct their castle : - LF and Sansa erecting together the tower is obviously a phallic symbol. When they are finished, Sansa take snow at the top of this tower and throws it to LF : here, the parts are reverse, because Sansa is playing the man and LF the girl (the text precises that LF has cut his little beard, and Sansa bears breeches). - LF kisses Sansa (if the reader had missed the first sexual allusion ^^) - Then the child arrives as Robert Arryn, who will effectively be Alayne's and LF chid after Lysa's death. Sweetrobin expulses LF and destroys Sansa's dream by destroying the castle. As a speculation, I'm tempted to see it as an echo of the end of Bael's tale (where the bastard son kills his father and provokes his mother's death), but also a reduct vision of the Stark story : at the end, the Stark children have to kill their parents (the old kings of the north/of Winter) and cause the definitive destruction of Winterfell.
  15. Satin

    Satin was born and educated in a brothel from Old Town, but he comes from Gulltown, so he was perhaps one of the very young boys that Lyn Corbray desires (yes, Lyn Corbray is not gay, he is pedophile), and was sent to the Wall because he was becoming an adult. Surely, he is one of the victims of LF's whore's trafic.