Lollygag

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  1. Still no actual text against my point, I see.
  2. They are points which aren't confirmed by the text. You "guessed" at them and they weren't written by the author. If the author had wanted the reader to believe that Westeros sees aunt-nephew and uncle-niece and to a lesser degree close cousin marriage as harmless as non-familial marriage, he'd have made that clear with specific examples. But they're curiously missing. And you keep trying to change the subject from uncle-niece, aunt-nephew and close cousin marriages to distant cousin marriages which are a completely different thing. Arguing that distant relative marriage is fairly common and lower risk does nothing to demonstrate that close relative marriage is treated the same way. The genealogies disprove that. They're very, very rare despite their advantages to a feudal society. And the genealogies demonstrate branching into non-related families both before and after. I'm done repeating myself over and over and discussing things which have nothing to do with my original point.
  3. They could be intermarrying with slimey aliens, too. I'm not discussing what hasn't been written. That you can only come up with hypotheticals to argue your point gives weight to my point. You like histories, genealogies and hypotheticals. Ok, but I don't care for them myself. Unless you can disprove my original point that the non-Targ Westerosi are very careful with uncle-niece, aunt-nephew and close cousin marriage in regards to maintaining sufficient branching of the overall tree with hard evidence and not hypotheticals, I'm going to end this discussion here.
  4. Again, I'm not going to speculate about what was never written. I didn't say first cousin marriages are uncommon. They do appear and as I said, people don't bat an eye at them. It's successive generations of first cousin marriages which start to strip the branches from the family tree which are non-existent. It's incest if the tree loses too many branches. Westerosi don't bat an eye at first cousin marriages, but they're also very careful to introduce more blood before or after. Again, I stated that it was successive generations of first cousin marriage is what's strictly avoided. It's in the genealogies of the World Book. Uncle-niece, aunt-nephew unions are exceedingly rare. Successive generations of close cousin marriages where new blood is limited are non-existent. Happy and very consistent accident through out all of the non-Targ genealogies? Nope. Cousin marriages aren't seen as a problem because the Westerosi are very careful that they don't become problems. You keep arguing about things which aren't in the books or about points I didn't make.
  5. I can only go off what was chosen to be included in the series and what's missing from the series. GRRM's history shows that uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages are exceedingly rare and they're careful that new bloodlines are present both in previous and successive generations. You can speculate all you want on what GRRM never wrote, but what's the point? It's debating fanfic. I'm obviously talking about first cousins, not about 5th cousins twice removed. Westeros doesn't do successive generations of close cousins intermarrying. Close cousin marriages are treated with great caution in regards to ensuring new blood is present both in earlier generations and following ones. You're trying to by-pass my point that Westeros is exceedingly careful that new blood is present when there are "non-incestuous" inter-family unions meaning these unions are not really seen as benign as some like portray.
  6. Incest in Westeros is often characterized as an is-or-isn’t thing by the fandom but when looking at how it’s practiced, we see that’s not how it’s viewed by the Westerosi themselves. Parent-child: Universally considered incest. Taboo even for Targs. Sibling-sibling: Practiced by Targs. Tolerated at best by non-Targ Westerosi. Deeply reviled by some characters. For the rest of the options, we see that Westeros is very, very conscious of the fact that marrying within the family causes problems and the frequency of these unions and the fact that they are carefully considered within the context of past bloodlines and future bloodlines means that Westeros does in fact consider them a type of incest and they warrant very careful treatment for several generations both before the union and after the union to mitigate damage. Uncle-Niece or Aunt-Nephew: These unions are not unheard of by some non-Targ Westerosi but you have to still dig deep to find examples of these due to extreme rarity. All that I can recall involve power-grabs or special circumstances. Basically, these unions are never anyone’s first or ideal choice and all had no interfamily marriage for a number of generations before or after indicating that Westerosi know that this union is very risky and to be avoided. Cousin-Cousin: For how advantageous these unions can be for keeping family alliances or property within the family, these are still fairly rare. No one bats an eye at the presence of these unions, but you’ll notice that successive cousin-cousin marriages throughout generations is rare or non-existent. If a family decided on marrying cousin-to-cousin for successive generations, I’m betting that Westeros would come to see that as incest because over successive generations, not enough new bloodlines were being introduced. These unions are ok, but only if they're only sporadic. Basically these Westerosi interfamily but non-incestuous marriages are only considered to not be incest because they are very careful to ensure new blood enters the line both before and after the union. Context is key for whether uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, or cousin-cousin unions are incestuous or not and they are not viewed as benign by the Westerosi population at all, or they would be a lot more common with less diligence paid to ensuring new blood enter the line in other generations. They absolutely do not have the blanket acceptance that is given to non-familial unions.
  7. I'm really not sure what you're getting at. A story where characters move the plot doesn't mean abandoning plot. It doesn't mean that characters don't react to plot. It doesn't mean characters just meander about aimlessly and without purpose. I want a story without characters being butchered. That doesn't mean plot gets tossed out the window. If characters are butchered to move plot, something has gone very, very wrong which is the point of the OP. Strong characterization and strong plot are not mutually exclusive, but too often the show seems to think it is.
  8. A good story for me is one where the characters move the plot, not one where the plot moves the characters. D&D are clearly in the later category. If a viewer or reader is more plot-centric, then yes, my points won't bother them as much and may even seem logical.
  9. A lot of the WTFs involving characters can be traced back to needing Jon and Dany in the same place and create circumstances where they could fall for each other. Dany needed a big build up to get to Westeros as she wouldn’t leave Essos until she believed she could win, but when arriving in Westeros, needed to be brought back down so that she would need Jon opening the door to a romance. One can also trace a number of plot WTFs to set up for Jonerys. Example: Jaime not drowning in heavy armor or getting captured as that would weaken Cersei which means Dany would no longer need Jon. Jon & Dany: two of the most bland and poorly developed characters in the series. The show seems to have decided that the surest route to viewer buy-in for this relationship is two bland hot people getting together. Cersei: She’s still around to take Dany down a notch or two so that she’ll need Jon as an ally and won’t burn him alive for not kneeling. Jaime: Jaime’s been in limbo because he needed to be at Cersei’s side so that she’d be strong enough to take Dany down so that she’d need Jon. Tyrion: He needed to be a “good guy” so he could spear-head her return to Westeros and temper any fire-and-blood tendencies which might put Jon off her. He’s now suddenly a strategic idiot because Dany needed to be taken down a notch for reasons stated above. Varys: Knows nothing these days apparently,and has forgot things he knew in the past like Ned Stark having a famous bastard. Again, Dany needed to be taken down a few notches so that she’d need Jon. Sansa: Before her motives were confusing to say the least, but now she’s clearly 100% team Jon. So long as Sansa doesn’t feel threatened by a Joff/LF/Ramsey type, she won’t seek power. Someone needs to hold the North for Jon while he hangs with Dany. The rest is artificial conflict. Arya: Her sole purpose seems to be to kill Cersei because they had to keep Cersei around to enable Jonerys.
  10. I think it’s a given that LF & Varys have people working for them in all of the significant places. The real questions for me are: 1. How many? 2. Are they low-level informants who only report random tidbits and comings and goings, or are they high level informants who have some knowledge of LF’s goals like the Kettleblacks? 3. Are they in it for the money, or are they in it for something bigger? 4. If we’re dealing with one or more high-level informants who have some knowledge of LF’s aims, then we should consider the possibility that they may be playing LF in turn. I’ll have to re-read his POV to be sure as it's been a long time, but maybe that one his chapters is “The Watcher” is a hint that Areo is working with someone, not necessarily LF? If so, I’d expect a clue or two to be dropped. I feel it’s a safe assumption that LF would have looked into the Tower of Joy incident and Ned's other movements around the the time of RR if only to find out dirt on Ned and his bastard(s) and mistress(es) to worm his way back into Catelyn’s life, possibly by blackmailing Ned. I’m not sure if this would translate to LF’s deep interest in Dorne in the present, but I think it’s possible that LF may have accidentally found interesting things in Dorne in searching for secrets about Ned. Eh, forgot this part. Yeah, I do think Dany is one of the three Queens. I’m not sure how you overlook that. LF”s MO so far is to pit major houses against each other and watch them destroy themselves while he sits it out in the shadows. Elevating Sansa to Queen of something at this point in the story is to put her in the line of fire of Dany and her dragons, so I’m currently inclined to think that LF doesn't want Sansa in the spotlight just yet.
  11. Gotcha. Due to the amount of rule by three or rule by a monarch and a counsel in the series, I'm inclined to think that the three dragon riders may not necessarily = the three heads of the dragons, instead being a rule by three. Dany has just realized that she's a conqueror, not a ruler which means she has some big holes to fill politically. Given that the dragons are presented as WMDs in the series, it might be possible that the dragons may not matter to the endgame as much as we're led to think at this point in the series as it's a bit too close to the message that war and weaponization is the answer. Just me, but I'm hoping for a different message.
  12. Just tossing out a crackpot idea on the three heads if you're open to the interpretation that they don’t all need to be Targs. Aegon ruled with his sisters Visenya (rather militant) and Rhaenys (charming). The Targs were overthrown by the Baratheons. Robert’s reign was secured with the aid of Stannis (militant) and Renly (charming). Jon has two sisters, one militant, the other charming. AGOT Jon VII and VIII are companion chapters to the HOTU chapter. These passages are from these chapters. "They were as close as brothers, once." Jon wondered if Joffrey would keep his father as the King's Hand. It did not seem likely. That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord Mormont's permission. "Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. "My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know—" Jon did not remember standing or leaving the solar. The next he knew, he was descending the tower steps, thinking, This is my father, my sisters, how can it be none of my concern. Ser Barristan had been the Old Bear's best hope, Jon remembered; if he had fallen, what chance was there that Mormont's letter would be heeded? He curled his hand into a fist. Pain shot through his burned fingers. "What of my sisters?"
  13. The HOTU seems focused on dragons, fire, and magic. They show visions of the political climate of Westeros, but mostly about how messed up it is at this point—hence the necessity of a savior. The IT itself doesn’t seem to concern them. Why would Dany need to slay the lies of the well-meaning Stannis, Aegon (I assume) and Jon? They’ll be competing for resources. The kingdom will be irreconcilably split following the savior of their choice rather than pooling everything under a single savior. All of the lies to be slain seem to show the moment in time that these 3 people are set on the path to become a threat to Dany as Mother of Dragons, gatekeeper of fire/light, and savior. When Jon is set on his path—becoming the official chosen successor to Jeor—all of the components of the stone beast vision are present. The moments in time that we see in the visions: 1. Stannis is no threat to Dany’s destiny until he hooks up with Mel and R’hllor resulting in his claim to being AA and a savior. 2. Aegon is no threat to Dany’s destiny until people believe and accept him as the rightful Targ so the vision shows people accepting him as Rhaegar’s son. No doubt he’ll also claim to be some sort of savior. Kind of given when your opponent is Cersei. 3. Jon and the NW are no threat to Dany’s destiny as savior until he’s set on his path to being LC. Jon is just Ned’s bastard kid, but it’s through his rise as LC that the North begins to see him a leader. Through Alys Karstark and other Northerners who seem to be gravitating to the Wall under the Bolton’s rule, Jon’s role as LC and head Stark are beginning to merge. The NW seems to not be a threat in itself, but the triple threat of Jon’s being in the Watch and swearing to its mission, being recognized as “head Stark”/KITN, and a later reveal as a Targ are enough to make him a threat to Dany’s claim of being the savior. “From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire…” The moment in question for Jon is when he defeats Othor. Jon sets Othor on fire which in turn sets the Lord Commander’s tower on fire. The next morning, Jon is granted Longclaw (the stone beast) which publicly recognizes Jon as Jeor’s chosen successor which leads to him becoming LC. From a smoking tower… Pyp grinned. "The Night's Watch is thousands of years old," he said, "but I'll wager Lord Snow's the first brother ever honored for burning down the Lord Commander's Tower." The others laughed, and even Jon had to smile. The fire he'd started had not, in truth, burned down that formidable stone tower, but it had done a fair job of gutting the interior of the top two floors, where the Old Bear had his chambers. The tower may still be smoking at the moment Jon receives Longclaw. ...a great stone beast... The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf's head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes. The grip was virgin leather, soft and black, as yet unstained by sweat or blood. A direwolf is a great beast. ...took wing, ... The Night’s Watch are Crows, hence “take wing”. Jon also “took wing” as the chosen successor of Jeor. ...breathing shadow fire... The Night’s Watch also breaths shadow fire, or false fire. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come. Shadow fire and taking flight might have a double meaning: not only does it point to Jon and the NW, it could also be recognizing the threat of his Targiness. One who doesn’t hatch dragons. This moment where Jon is set on his path becomes even more significant if we look at what happened right before burning the Tower and killing Othor. Earlier that evening, it sounds like Jeor has decided against Jon being his designated successor. The text makes clear that Jon has been on trial since being named as the LC’s steward—and he’s failed. Later, much later, after they had marched him back to his sleeping cell, Mormont came down to see him, raven on his shoulder. "I told you not to do anything stupid, boy," the Old Bear said. "Boy," the bird chorused. Mormont shook his head, disgusted. "And to think I had high hopes for you." Like the visions with Stannis and Aegon, for Jon it all turns on a few moments: his killing Othor, the subsequent burning of the LC’s tower and being granted Longclaw and all that implies, setting him on the path of competing with Dany.
  14. Not sure if you've seen these book quotes, but there does seem to be a connection between LF and greenseers in the books. Go about half-way down in the post. Also, if Robert is really LF's and LF has some connection to the CotF, then Robert's Bran parallels and sitting on a weirwood throne start to make some sense.
  15. I'm reminded that Tywin hated Tytos and was so embarrassed by him that he modeled the Lannisters after the Targs instead, perhaps meaning that Tywin didn't want to consider himself a Lannister, and that Tytos didn't care for Tywin's views. It may have been Gerion who Tytos felt embodied true Lannister traits. Gerion encouraged Tyrion to read and be a fool which sounds more in line with Lann the Clever than Tywin. Being clever often involves "fooling" people, and being underestimated is a huge advantage in fooling someone. I'm leaning against Tyrion being a secret Targ in favor of the secret Targ hints being more about how the Lannister kids were raised more like Targs than Lannisters. But if Tyrion is really a secret Targ, then being a true Lannister instead of Tywin's Lannisters who were wanna-be Targs would be a parallel to Jon, who is not a Stark, but still the Starkiest of the Stark kids. I'm half inclined to think that Gerion is only in hiding, playing at his own game. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. I interpret this not as a statement about Gerion's jokester nature, about him really not liking to lose. He won't play if he can't win and he couldn't win at Tywin's game. I suspect he disappeared to play the game in a way that he could win in true Lann the Clever fashion by clever fooling and tricking.