Lollygag

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  1. I think the OP is absolutely correct to look at Maggy’s words in detail. I would need more to connect the valonqar (makes me think of conquer?) to Aerys’ device. But Qyburn is Cersei’s own torture device which she is using in part to defend herself from the prophesy. If Qyburn could be connected a torture device (Aerys’ or another), then that would fit Cersei bringing about her end by trying to prevent it. I've noticed genie/jinn vibes from this scene. There’s rubbing the lamp 3 times (Cersei asks 3 times for her fortune). There’s spices, green mood lighting, carpets, tents and snake imagery. Instead of 3 wishes, Cersei gets 3 questions. Cersei warns her younger self against waking a sleeping sorceress which reminds me that it’s bad to wake a sleeping snake and recalls snake charmers. It’s known in popular culture that genies grant wishes very literally so questions must be well-thought out and very specific. Sometimes the wishes granted (or fortunes foretold?) come with unexpected negatives which cancel out the benefits of the wish. They are very much a double-edged sword. Maggy (in the fortune) "grants" Cersei her wishes, but not in the way she'd like. I see something similar in Maggy’s words. Cersei gets 3 questions. Maggy’s answers are two parted. One part is a simple answer to a question. She will never marry the prince, she will be queen, she will have 3 children. The other half of Maggy’s answers feed into Cersei's vices especially vanity and paranoia. What Maggy is obligated to give is simple. What Maggy offers of her own choice is poison. Cersei wanted to ask about the third answer but noted she had no more questions. This is when Maggy offers the valonqar prophesy. I think that Maggy is leading Cersei to her own doom. She deeply offends her by waking her rudely and then threatens to have her whipped. I think there’s strong hints that Maggy may have specifically worded things to ensure that Cersei fell right into what she would seek to avoid most especially feeding her paranoia which she knew Cersei already had in spades due to knowing about the murder of Melara (not to mention being able to glean a number of Cersei’s other negative qualities from their interaction). There's also a lot of curse stuff going on. I'm more inclined to think it a curse than a prophesy. Cersei notes her blood is black which is linked to cursed blood. Maggy curses her as she leaves and we're never told the curse - except I think we were. Maggy didn't need Melara's blood to tell her future, so what purpose was there in taking Cersei's blood? When Cersei recalls her dreams, she tells herself to run away. That would work for a curse, not so much a prophesy. I see something different in this scene which actually doesn't work against your argument though it doesn't support it either. Taena evades answering a simple yes or no question. She reassures Cersei that Maggy was only messing with her, yet she reminds her of exactly why she hates Tyrion. It just looks like manipulation to me which plays into Cersei's vanity with excessive flattery. Taena was a whore in the Free Cities and with her looks and mannerisms, likely a high-priced one. Text specifies "Free Cities", not just Myr. Just guessing, but I think she knows more languages than just Myrish and the Common Tongue yet still did not answer. Regardless, given Taena's history and that she might have her own motives and that she's trying to manipulate Cersei, I think what she says and does shouldn't be taken at face value. I don't think Taena's the valonqar but this is interesting. Cersei equates Melara to Taena. Taena is in Cersei's blankets. Cersei's blankets end up wrapped around her throat. AFFC Cersei V It had been a long day, and Taena's wit always cheered her. Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara Hetherspoon, had turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station. I should not think ill of her. She's dead and drowned, and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime. AFFC Cersei IX Dawn was breaking over King's Landing when they climbed from the tub. The queen's skin was white and wrinkled from her long immersion. "Stay with me," she told Taena. "I do not want to sleep alone." She even said a prayer before she crawled beneath her coverlet, beseeching the Mother for sweet dreams. AFFC Cersei VIII (after dreaming of Maggy the Frog...) She woke gasping in the dark with her blanket wound about her neck. Cersei wrenched it off so violently that it tore, and sat up with her breasts heaving. A dream, she told herself, an old dream and a tangled coverlet, that's all it was.
  2. TWOIAF—The Wall and Beyond: The Night’s Watch The vast expense in sustaining the Wall and the men who man it has become increasingly intolerable. Only three of the castles of the Night's Watch are now manned, and the order is a tenth of the size that it was when Aegon and his sisters landed, yet even at this size, the Watch remains a burden. Some argue that the Wall serves as a useful way of ridding the realm of murderers, rapers, poachers, and their ilk, whilst others question the wisdom of putting weapons in the hands of such and training them in the arts of war. Wildling raids may rightly be considered more of a nuisance than a menace; many wise men suggest that they might be better dealt with by allowing the lords of the North to extend their rule beyond the Wall so that they can drive the wildlings back. Only the fact that the Northmen themselves greatly honor the Watch has kept it functioning, and a great part of the food that keeps the black brothers of Castle Black, the Shadow Tower, and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea from starving comes not from the Gift but from the yearly gifts these Northern lords deliver to the Wall in token of their support.
  3. Truth be told, I've not thought on that aspect much. When I want a romance, I go as far away from ASOIAF as possible because I just have the feeling that it's only a matter of time before GRRM comes along and crushes it like Gregor crushed Oberyn's head. And there's just not enough Pepto in the world for me to fully process the romantic implications of all of the incest and incest overtoned "situations" in this series.
  4. I checked the wiki for Ironwood and it says it burns with a blue flame which means hotter than regular wood but it's all confusing. Not sure if you're a gardener or not, but plants and trees love blood. You can buy them bloodmeal which is usually dried cow blood at the nursery. I knew someone who was able to bring expired or unacceptable blood home from their work at a hospital for her trees and she swore she never saw anything grow so fast. (Plants like milk too if you're uncomfortable offering blood sacrifices to your plants and trees ) So maybe blood in the wood is what's important? Iron from blood? Looking into iron and the Others, this passage really stands out. This places seems rather odd. It has iron doors (maybe not rust?) instead of oak doors and there's a woo-woo vibe. ADWD Jon IV They moved through the grey gloom beneath the earth. Each storeroom had a solid oaken door closed with an iron padlock as big as a supper plate. "Is pilferage a problem?" Jon asked. As they moved from one vault to another, the wormways seemed to grow colder. Before long Jon could see their breath frosting in the lantern light. "We're beneath the Wall." "And soon inside it," said Marsh. "The meat won't spoil in the cold. For long storage, it's better than salting." The next door was made of rusty iron. Behind it was a flight of wooden steps. Dolorous Edd led the way with his lantern. Up top they found a tunnel as long as Winterfell's great hall though no wider than the wormways. The walls were ice, bristling with iron hooks. From each hook hung a carcass: skinned deer and elk, sides of beef, huge sows swinging from the ceiling, headless sheep and goats, even horse and bear. Hoarfrost covered everything. As they did their count, Jon peeled the glove off his left hand and touched the nearest haunch of venison. He could feel his fingers sticking, and when he pulled them back he lost a bit of skin. His fingertips were numb. What did you expect? There's a mountain of ice above your head, more tons than even Bowen Marsh could count. Even so, the room felt colder than it should. ADWD Jon XII Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"
  5. If you're going with the original plan, that's fine, but I'm not so it doesn't have much if any weight with me for reasons you've probably heard from others. One of the reasons why the original outline holds little weight with me is that it's largely missing the themes and messages which are so prevalent in the books which were actually written. When I used the list with the slashes, I didn't mean all of those applied to every situation. I believe that GRRM is exploring various aspects of Game of Thrones thinking, some malicious (Cersei) and some more innocent (Jaime who just never thinks or takes anything seriously). In Jaime we someone who can fall into accidentally into the Game and perpetuate it without the intent but still some very bad things came of it regardless. As soon as he begins thinking for himself and taking things more seriously, he gravitates away from Cersei towards Brienne. As to what aspect of Game of Thrones thinking a Jonsa might fit into? I don't know because it hasn't been written. But it is being applied to first cousin marriages, so I'm using past behavior as a predictor of future behavior and going with any future first cousin marriages will explore incest as inward thinking like the past ones. When I wrote this, I speaking on how the Westerosi view the marriages (basically that incest is a sliding scale dependent also upon previous and future unions, not the black white thing which most try to force it into). I wasn't discussing how they would be treated thematically or symbolically by the writer.
  6. If they do get together I think it’d indicate pretty bad things about the direction of their characters. Incest and incest overtones are consistently used as markers for backwards/self-centered/inverted/narcissistic/power-hungry/blind/Game of Thrones type thinking. Just found another one the other day. Wyman Manderly offered to marry his first cousin in a power-play for Hornwood. The Manderlys were exiled from the Reach for power grabbing. If we do get Jonsa, I suspect it would be because they’ve become not necessarily bad or evil, but certainly off-track. Think the Wrong Way Starks. Maybe it sets up a conflict between Jonsa as the two older Starks raised in Westeros’ rancid feudal system vs Bran, Arya & Rickon who are the Starks raised more in the Wild? Bran's climbing against orders, and well, just Arya and Rickon, all showed rejected of at least some aspects of their feudal system upbringings.
  7. While I always fully encourage wild and unrestrained symbolism analysis , there is way too much (even more later) pointing to the Casterly/Lannisters and the Rhoyne with their Valyria-repelling greyscale-Shrouded Lord-Other-overtoned thing as outlined a few posts ago. But I get what you're saying with the original OP. This thing has gotten away from me...
  8. Maybe I'm not understanding your post, but this thread is largely discussing actual things like rain, shit and drearyness. When I'm comparing the rain at Craster's and at Tywin's funeral, I'm being entirely literal.
  9. So I’ve just come across some information which lets me just get to the point as to why it’s significant if Craster is a Casterly. Actually, Craster was a tangent on the Casterlys and Lannisters in general. I’ll have a lot more backup for this in the next post which also expands into other things. Jaime dreams of creatures that want him under the cold, dark water in the caverns under Casterly Rock. Casterly Rock is described as “thrice the height of the Wall or the Hightower in Oldtown. Almost two leagues long from west to east…” so it’s entirely believable that things exist well hidden deep in Casterly Rock. Cowled is a synonym for shrouded in some contexts. Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. " He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. ... Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . . Notice here “Hooded” (another word for shrouded in some contexts), “necromancy” and “return from the grave” and “thralls”. Also note that Loreon is the first King. Given how people like to King themselves, he likely doesn't post date Lann and the Casterlys by much. Human thralls were kept at that time, but given that he was a powerful necromancer and what he did with the Lions, I wonder if his thralls were not something else. Lann the Clever never called himself a king, as best we know, though some tales told centuries later have conferred that style on him posthumously. The first true Lannister king we know of is Loreon Lannister, also known as Loreon the Lion (a number of Lannisters through the centuries have been dubbed ‘the Lion’ or ‘the Golden,’ for understandable reasons), who made the Reynes of Castamere his vassals by wedding a daughter of that House, and defeated the Hooded King, Morgon Banefort, and his thralls in a war that lasted twenty years. King Morgon was supposedly a necromancer of terrible power, and it is written that as he lay dying, he told the Lannisters who had slain him (amongst them three of Loreon’s own sons) that he would return from the grave to wreak vengeance upon them one and all. To prevent that, Loreon had Morgon’s body hacked into a hundred pieces and fed to his lions. In a grisly aftermath, however, those selfsame lions broke loose two years later in the bowels of Casterly Rock, and slew the king’s sons, just as the Hooded King had promised. Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is." Apparently the Westerlands Chapter in TWOIAF is abridged from this full version on GRRM’s website. http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/ Thanks to the other posters on this thread as their mental meanderings helped greatly in filling in some holes! I’m guessing that this goes back to some connection with the Rhoyne. The Casterlys had reason to visit the Rhoyne after their gold discovery as the Rhoynar were expert metal workers. Garin’s curse of greyscale was ~700BC, long after the Casterlys, but we don’t know that greyscale (or something similar) didn’t exist long before that point or that it wasn’t used as a threat. At the same time the Valyrians made a truce with the Rhoyne instead of fire-and-blooding them like everyone else, they were avoiding the Casterlys and then later the Lannisters while we have reports of hooded lords who can perform necromancy and control thralls in the Westerlands. Given Tywin’s and Craster’s connections to “foul humors” and rain, it all sounds Shrouded Lord-ish. The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. TWOIAF—Ancient History: Valyria’s Children In short, the names and numbers of the peoples who fell to Valyria are unknown to us today. What records the Valyrians kept of their conquests were largely destroyed by the Doom, and few if any of these peoples documented their own histories in a way that survived the Freehold's dominion. A few, such as the Rhoynar, lasted against the tide for centuries, or even millennia. The Rhoynar, who founded great cities along the Rhoyne, were said to be the first to learn the art of iron-making. ADWD Tyrion V "The conquerors did not believe either, Hugor Hill," said Ysilla. "The men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts." Valyria initially believed in the curses but later did not? Is that what restricted them at first? Wild speculation here: it’s mentioned with the Rhoynar’s resistance against Valyria that they learned iron-making. Iron is placed on the statues at Winterell, Ironwoods surround Crasters’ keep, Ironwood doors on Winterfell’s crypt doors. Perhaps this is when the greyscale originated, or at least a predecessor and iron-making came along with it to contain and control it? Notice Jaime’s connection to hoods, stone, water, fish, fishscales, and snow/all white in the quotes below. He’s a stone-like watcher of the dead, hooded, on chilly, dreary rainy day in a place that stinks (foul humors linked to the Shrouded Lord). He wears scales like Rhoynish armor and also mother-of-pearl. He's linked to snow and all white not unlike an Other. Also note another passage where Jaime sees a dead man he doesn’t recognize in the water along with a Tully trout. He saw a dead man in the water and wondered if he knew him. His Lannister hair disappears under the water as it’s cut off. He then looks at himself in the water and doesn’t recognize himself. AFFC Cersei II Under the Great Sept's lofty dome of glass and gold and crystal, Lord Tywin Lannister's body rested upon a stepped marble bier. At its head Jaime stood at vigil, his one good hand curled about the hilt of a tall golden greatsword whose point rested on the floor. The hooded cloak he wore was as white as freshly fallen snow, and the scales of his long hauberk were mother-of-pearl chased with gold. Lord Tywin would have wanted him in Lannister gold and crimson, she thought. It always angered him to see Jaime all in white. She glanced at Jaime. Her twin stood as if he had been carved from stone, and would not meet her eyes. TWOIAF Ten Thousand Ships The Rhoynish warrior with his silver-scaled armor, fish-head helm, tall spear, and turtle-shell shield was esteemed and feared by all those who faced him in battle. It was said the Mother Rhoyne herself whispered to her children of every threat, that the Rhoynar princes wielded strange, uncanny powers, that Rhoynish women fought as fiercely as Rhoynish men, and that their cities were protected by "watery walls" that would rise to drown any foe. ASOS Jaime I Birds flew overhead, or cried out from the trees along the shore, and Jaime glimpsed silvery fish knifing through the water. Tully trout, there's a bad omen, he thought, until he saw a worse—one of the floating logs they passed turned out to be a dead man, bloodless and swollen. His cloak was tangled in the roots of a fallen tree, its color unmistakably Lannister crimson. He wondered if the corpse had been someone he knew. ... Cleos hacked away manfully, sawing and ripping his way through the mats and tossing the hair over the side. The golden curls floated on the surface of the water, gradually falling astern. As the tangles vanished, a louse went crawling down his neck. ... The reflection in the water was a man he did not know. Not only was he bald, but he looked as though he had aged five years in that dungeon; his face was thinner, with hollows under his eyes and lines he did not remember. I don't look as much like Cersei this way. She'll hate that. In the passage above where Jaime is described not unlike the (hooded) Shrouded Lord, his gold sword is prominent. Valyria’s sorcerers prophesied that Casterly Rock gold (not silver) would end them. Craster wears a gold ring around his wrist and asks for an axe with gold inlay. Garin was hung in a gold cage when he issued his curse. It’s long been speculated that the stonemen, greyscale and the stone statues of Winterfell (and the stonemen of Casterly Rock?) are tied to the Others and it has to do with bloodlines. Hence Craster’s relationship with the Others. Val says that greyscale is stronger on the other (Others’) side of the Wall. ADWD Jon XI Once outside and well away from the queen's men, Val gave vent to her wroth. "You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs. And the daughter … her face …" "Greyscale." "The grey death is what we call it." "It is not always mortal in children." "North of the Wall it is. This also has interesting implications for Pycelle. He was exposed to the grey plague as a child. He does not say whether he caught it or not, though the hint is there. If Pycelle caught the grey plague as a child and is now immune and the Lannisters have greyscale or something similar at Casterly Rock, then Pycelle’s value to the Lannisters is clear. Note that Pycelle links Tywin’s doing what was needed to Quenton Hightower’s doing what was needed against the grey plague for the reader hinting that there was more to Tywin’s ruthlessness than it appears. AFFC Jaime I Without his beard, Pycelle looked not only old, but feeble. Shaving him was the cruelest thing Tyrion could have done, thought Jaime, who knew what it was to lose a part of yourself, the part that made you who you were. Pycelle's beard had been magnificent, white as snow and soft as lambswool, a luxuriant growth that covered cheeks and chin and flowed down almost to his belt. The Grand Maester had been wont to stroke it when he pontificated. It had given him an air of wisdom, and concealed all manner of unsavory things: the loose skin dangling beneath the old man's jaw, the small querulous mouth and missing teeth, warts and wrinkles and age spots too numerous to count. Though Pycelle was trying to regrow what he had lost, he was failing. Only wisps and tufts sprouted from his wrinkled cheeks and weak chin, so thin that Jaime could see the splotchy pink skin beneath. "Ser Jaime, I have seen terrible things in my time," the old man said. "Wars, battles, murders most foul . . . I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him from his horse and slit his throat, and his young son's as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed." ADWD Tyrion V Maesters and septons alike agreed that children marked by greyscale could never be touched by the rarer mortal form of the affliction, nor by its terrible swift cousin, the grey plague. "Damp is said to be the culprit," he said. "Foul humors in the air. Not curses." I can’t say exactly what the plot relevance might be if Craster is a Casterly because I can’t say exactly what greyscale and the Others might have in common, though they do seem connected. The Lannisters and Craster and Casterly are all linked to greyscale and Shrouded Lord things like rain/water, damp/chill, shit/”foul humors”, creatures in dark frigid water, hooded necromancers, Craster’s rumored association with demons, his confirmed association with the Others, and it’s all looped into why the greyscale is always deadly north of the Wall.
  10. The problem is that the mindset isn’t there to even initiate the change. They’ll do what they’ve always done because that’s the way they’ve always done it hence why they’ve stagnated for thousands of years. The only characters that I’ve seen who may be able to break Westeros out of this thinking is LF (but he’s evil), Tyrion is clever enough but has no vision or goals, and Jon when he is coming up with ways to repay the Ironbank’s loan. Most importantly here is bringing in glassblowers (and other tradesmen), teaching themselves the skill and then expanding on that. ADWD Jon VII Glass, Jon mused, might be of use here. Castle Black needs its own glass gardens, like the ones at Winterfell. We could grow vegetables even in the deep of winter. The best glass came from Myr, but a good clear pane was worth its weight in spice, and green and yellow glass would not work as well. What we need is gold. With enough coin, we could buy 'prentice glassblowers and glaziers in Myr, bring them north, offer them their freedom for teaching their art to some of our recruits. That would be the way to go about it. If we had the gold. Which we do not. This mind-set of preoccupation on tradition and doing-it-the-way-we've-always-done-it will have to start to break down if Westeros is ever to begin to transition into a late-medieval/early renaissance-type period.
  11. I just really noticed the part in the WOIAF where the Valyrians avoided the Casterlys as well as the Lannisters meaning their reasons for avoiding Casterly Rock is about Casterly Rock itself for whatever the reason, and it originated during the Casterlys' time. If Pycelle had a hand in continuing something that went back a long time to the Casterlys and Pycelle, Tywin and Kevan all died recently with no clear hand-over of Casterly Rock, then that might be very significant. The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. This would play into the themes of the powerful and the powerless with High and Low. I've noticed that hills are linked to Craster and the Lannisters. Still and flowing: the Others are extremely cold. At absolute zero all motion of molecules stops. Ice Preserves. Heat is the accelerated movement or flowing of molecules, or if there is too much motion therefor too much heat, Fire Destroys. The stone vs water makes me think of the Tao Te Ching, #78 Nothing in the world is as soft and yielding as water. Yet for dissolving the hard and inflexible, nothing can surpass it. The soft overcomes the hard; the gentle overcomes the rigid. Everyone knows this is true, but few can put it into practice. Therefore the Master remains serene in the midst of sorrow. Evil cannot enter his heart. Because he has given up helping, he is people's greatest help. True words seem paradoxical. Yeah, I was thinking we might get a lot of information on the dark diety Garth Greenhands or Garth Greenhair from Arya's chapters when Lommy appears. It says that the Manderlys were exiled from the Reach because they had too much power and we see Wyman seeking power through acquiring Hornwood by marrying his first cousin and I’ve long suspected that his support of Rickon is tied to a wish to become his regent as Rickon would have no obvious choices for regent. Manderly could reject Jon on the basis of his vows and reject Sansa on the basis of her marriage to Tyrion. Would he marry Rickon to Wyalla? She’s 10 years older. Previously I’ve thought that sacrifices in the north were exclusively for protection, but maybe not always? The wildlings (and Chett) think of Craster as living as a lord. I attributed this to his own making but now I’m not so sure. Craster sacrifices his kin and lives like a lord (relative to north of the Wall), the Manderlys may be linked to such sacrifices in White Harbor at least if not in the Reach though the implication is there. They’ve flourished in White Harbor as previously it was a very difficult location to hold and we know that they’ve historically sought power in the past and continue to do so today. The Casterlys sacrifice a lion but spare the rest and they are rewarded. What if the Casterlys were rewarded for the sacrifice and not rewarded for the spared cubs? Something in the water wants Jaime but not the other Lannisters and the Lannisters hold great power. We do have some missing Lannisters and their family is unusually large for Westeros. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood. It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep. Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes. "An old tree." Mormont sat his horse, frowning. "Old," his raven agreed from his shoulder. "Old, old, old." "And powerful." Jon could feel the power. ...but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten. Is there anyone else linked to sacrifice and power?
  12. It might be worth looking into Ironwood trees. Ironwoods are found near Craster's and it's also the door to the Crypts of Winterfell. Curiously Gared is executed on an ironwood stump. The associations to Craster and the Winterfell crypts hint that the wood has some properties of iron.
  13. Just a random thought here. I keep coming across this happy vs weeping/generally negative contrast with the Casterlys and Lannisters. It makes me think of the two-faced weeping/laughing masks on playhouses. Tytos was the Laughing Lion until his wife died. Then he became—they didn’t give him a catchy name– but a sad lion. Gerion then became the Laughing Lion who was always at odds with the sour lion in Tywin. Jaime laughs and jokes taking nothing seriously, but Cersei never smiles or laughs unless its for manipulative or malicious reasons. While Jon notes that Craster’s mouth is downturned in ACOK III, Sam specifies that it’s downturned only on one side like he’s had a stroke. I don’t know if that’s a discrepancy or not? Craster dies in this chapter but does that mean anything? Tywin’s mouth turned up after he died... ASOS Samwell II Craster was a thick man made thicker by the ragged smelly sheepskins he wore day and night. He had a broad flat nose, a mouth that drooped to one side… Tyrion seems to be two sided though it doesn’t have much to do with his mouth. On one hand, he has bright blonde hair and a green eye, and on the other he has very dark hair and a black eye. When the Casterlys moved into the Rock to protect their treasure, it just really sounded like Gollum to me who has two faces and is always “my precious…” over a gold ring and lives in caves. Craster’s bracelet is described as a gold ring around his wrist. The Casterlys live in caves in such a way that they seemed creature-like and made me think of mole people, then you have Lann the Clever stealing sun and laughing. I noted Tywin’s mouth in the Tywin’s funeral section above. In life it was down-turned, but in death became up-turned.
  14. @Seams @Corvo the Crow I looked up some stuff on the Manderlys. They were a First Man family which converted to the Seven. Between 1000BC and 600BC, they were driven from the Reach because they “overreached” and/or because the King feared their growing power. It doesn’t specify what “power” is so can’t say as to whether it’s economic power, military power, political power, etc. This seems true because we see the gluttonous Wyman make a play for Hornwood. Those sacrifices in the World Book would have stopped long after the arrival of the Manderlys. So either they couldn't stop them or they didn't bother to do so for some reason... I’ve always been confused by the green hair on their merman sigil. Blue would make more sense. No weird color at all would make the best sense because the dyed hair just seems Tyroshi. Green could be seaweed, but the Mander is a river. I'm assuming their sigil came from the Reach as they went from one water culture on the Mander to another water culture in White Harbor but maybe I'm wrong? Wylla has green hair, I assume from the sigil, but given the frequent Garth mentions in this chapter, the green hair on their sigil is a bit unsettling: Garth was the High King of the First Men, it is written; it was he who led them out of the east and across the land bridge to Westeros. Yet other tales would have us believe that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the First Man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god. There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.) Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot, and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures. More likely, his sobriquet derived from his gifts as a gardener and a tiller of the soil—the one trait on which all the tales agree. "Garth made the corn ripen, the trees fruit, and the flowers bloom," the singers tell us. A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.
  15. You know it’s funny you all are talking about swords when it was looking into Gerion and Brightroar which got me started on all of this. Just a gut call right now, but it may be more important than we think, so please continue if you wish. Note that Brightroar was bought THE century before the Doom, not A century before the Doom. It was paid for in gold which was prophesied to be the end of Valyria, but we don’t know who the Lannisters bought the sword from. “Enough to raise an army” might be a clue as it's kind of specific. Also, raising an army isn't necessarily the same as buying an army. Did anyone raise/buy an army around that time? What were the Valyrians doing around this time? The Doom occurred 114BC. If it was bought A century before the Doom, then we’re looking at ~214BC. If we’re looking at THE century before the Doom, then the timeline changes from 300BC to 200BC. "Gold of Casterly Rock" may also have some important hints. They didn't say Lannister gold, they specified the place. And gold might mean money, or it might mean just raw gold. There's no mention of silver. Casterly Rock gold may be very specific only to the gold mines of only Casterly Rock but not other mines in the Westerlands owned by the Lannisters. "Gold of Casterly Rock" is specifically what the old gods showed the Casterlys. They wanted gold badly. That the sorcerers say the gold is bad maybe means that Casterly Rock gold is somehow incompatible not with their metal work but with their spells. If Casterly Rock gold is tied to the old gods (sacrifice? Jaime's dream?), and if Craster is a Casterly, and if Craster has a special thing with the Others, then I can see how that might go badly. They don't use gold for VS swords I don't think though. TWOIAF The sword Brightroar came into the possession of the Lannister kings in the century before the Doom, and it is said that the weight of gold they paid for it would have been enough to raise an army. But it was lost little more than a century later, when Tommen II carried it with him when he sailed with his great fleet to ruined Valyria, with the intention of plundering the wealth and sorcery he was sure still remained. The fleet never returned, nor Tommen, nor Brightroar. ... The great wealth of the westerlands, of course, stems primarily from their gold and silver mines. The veins of ore run wide and deep, and there are mines, even now, that have been delved for a thousand years and more and are yet to be emptied. Lomas Longstrider reports that, even in far Asshai-by-the-Shadow, there were merchants who asked him if it was true that the "Lion Lord" lived in a palace of solid gold and that crofters collected a wealth of gold simply by plowing their fields. The gold of the west has traveled far, and the maesters know there are no mines in all the world as rich as those of Casterly Rock. The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered so