rotting sea cow

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  1. I'm not a expert on Sansa & Vale plot, but I caught this last night. I was going to post it in the 'I never noticed that' thread, but maybe it's too important. and earlier Although Lady Waynwood turned out, unexpectedly... All for Alayne II in AFFC, the same chapter where Littlefinger reveals the betrothal of Alayne Stone (Baelish's bastard daughter) to Harry the Heir. As we see the whole thing through Sansa's head, we go along with the plan, despite the evidence of the contrary in the same chapter! Littlefinger is delusional here. It's not gonna work. Vale nobility is one of the most conservative in Westeros.
  2. Tyrion's killing of Tywin was an over reaction?

    - Tyrion VI, AGOT Apparently even Bronn has more sense than some posters here.
  3. First, not all romantic love needs to end in some relationship. Second, there is a big issue of how different Jon will be after returning from death. If we have learned something from Beric & Catelyn, the prospects for him being able to empathize with other people are quite dim. Will he become more wolfish? Will be obsessed with fighting the Others? or taking revenge? Or obsessed with his origins? It's hard to say. Will love be able to 'cure him'? If yes, who? Arya? Val? Dany?
  4. I found this in another subforum. It is relevant to discuss time- and plotlines for TWOW
  5. Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons Simultaneously?

  6. Joff's Valyrian steel dagger

    I have speculated before that maybe the Others are manipulating some individuals, through dreams, etc. so the can weaken the realm and thus make their whole mission easier. There are two problems 1.- There no evidence so far from relevant PoV (e.g. Cersei) that it is actually happening. 2.- It creates problems with the moral message of the book that individual choices matter. Being manipulated by supernatural beings dilutes responsibility. Despite of this, Euron might be a case. There is very slight hints of this.
  7. that creature is dangerous...

    - Jon X, ADWD I never gave too much thought to that sentence. I somehow imagined that she is seeing BR or Bran warging Patchface and the red lips is a reference to weirwood sap (or Jojen paste ) and I seem to recall there are skulls in the cave. Alternatively, maybe there is another greenseer around we haven't heard of. Or even a vision of the 'real' Drowned God. Etc. But this guy made a good case, that what Mel is seeing is something related to House Lonmouth, specifically Richard Lonmouth former squire of Rhaegar, whose whereabouts are unknown. So, what Mel saw was a motley pattern of skulls and kisses and associated it with Patchface. Because Patchy is in motley, conclusion Patchface is dangerous. Very Melissandry indeed (she might not be wrong in the end) The link makes a case for Mance being our missing Richard Lonmouth. This will account for the dangerous part of the vision. But, as with Mance=Rhaegar, Mance=Arthur Dayne, Mance=Daario=Benjen=Euron, etc, the problem is that Mance origins seems to be well established in the story. But then who else? I'm aware of Lem=Richard Lonmouth theory, but why is he so dangerous to be seen oft in Melissandre visions? Any idea?
  8. that creature is dangerous...

    Jinglebell is dead, why should Mel see him, and why should she consider him a threat? Very likely, but I'm unsure that "force" has red lips. The Drowned God has a different depiction. I think that theory has quite good ground. OK. Let summarize the two main options. 1) Melisandre is actually seeing Patchface, with lips red with blood and skulls about him. Possible interpretations of this Red lips is associated to the weirwood sap, and there are skulls in BR cave. So maybe a greenseer is warging Patches? However Mel sees BR as a wooden face and Bran as child with wolf head, so they are unlikely to be involved. Maybe there is another powerful greenseer around, we haven't heard of? There is nothing that suggests this in Bran's chapters, and Euron has blue lips. The vision is more metaphorical, but then interpreting it is then more difficult. Why would Mel see so often and why should he consider a danger. Mel associates skulls with death. Another creature or power is behind Patchface, but it is then harder to say which. 2) Melisandre is interpreting the vision as Patchface. This shouldn't surprise anybody. Mel visions are accurate, but her interpretations are often off mark. This scenario is where Richard Lonmouth may come into play. So, she sees the skulls and kisses of House Lonmouth and interprets the motley pattern as Patchface. Questions immediately arise. Why should she see Richard Lonmouth? Where is he? Why should he be a threat? As I said above. I find unlikely Mance is Richard in disguise, because Mance backstory is quite well known. But then, who else could be a threat? and Why the vision isn't more clear? R'hllor must be facepalming with Mel.
  9. Wow, I never noticed that v.15

    - Cersei X, AFFC That sounds strangely Eowyn-ish Specially if you consider - Arya VIII, ASOS Sansa will slay Robert Strong. Somehow.
  10. Wow, I never noticed that v.15

    - Tyrion VII, ADWD Where did I see that dagger before? Ah, here - Daenerys VIII, AGOT
  11. that creature is dangerous...

    Thanks for your detailed reply Oh yeah. I was checking his site afterwards and although there are interesting observations, the writer is prone to overinterpretation. Well, that was exactly my opinion before reading that blog, but there is - so far - nobody to fit in that vision. Unless that vision itself represents Patchface somehow. If we think that somebody is warging in Patchface, the red lips, may point to weirwood sap, but the skulls? and who can that person be? Why he/she is so dangerous? So, I tend to agree with the cantuse interpretation. Melisandre sees a motley pattern and associated with Patchface, because you know Melisandre. But I disagree about the conclusion of the Lonmouth coats of arms being related to Mance. But then if she is seeing Richard Lonmouth somehow, why would he be so dangerous? Interesting. There was a post not so long ago, about Edd Tollett being a symbolic Ned Stark. I'm aware of this theory and there is good ground for it. Maybe Mel is seeing the things that BtW are doing? and Thoros in between, who also represent a different kind of threat for her, more at the religious level?
  12. Evil Daenerys?

    Interesting thread, I'll give it a look. I think this is both intentional, but there also is some lack of attention to the Essosi arc by GRRM. If I have something to say, I comment in that thread. Indeed. Although JonCon wants to have Dany as queen, the prospect will look less likely as the time passes. Arianne will probably try to push Aegon into a marriage alliance, otherwise no 'Dragon' word will be sent to the Dornish armies. Varys might try to kill Tommen to free Margaery and get the Reach, and maybe even Sansa will become involved. At some point the rumors of the death of the Dragon Queen will reach Westeros too.
  13. The Drunk Thread: Just Drunk Enough to Theorize

    Most of times I also behave, even during (my few) blackouts, like last time. Just I hate remembering nothing. A cousin on the other hand, cannot drink more than two beers.
  14. Evil Daenerys?

    I think you are misunderstanding Dany's arc. She is - so far - far away of invading Westeros, and given her new ascension at Vaes Dothrak becoming a political and religious figure for the Dothraki, plus her proclamation by the red priests, she will feel compelled to stay in Essos and finish slavery once for all. Unless something makes her to come to Westeros and abandons some of her plans. This thing is likely to be Aegon sitting in the IT. Because of the way of different events are occurring, Aegon will enjoy of the support of good part of the realm, particularly of any hidden Targaryen loyalists. And this will be her tragedy, she had always hoped to be welcomed in Westeros, instead she will not because as you point out she will come with a huge host of freedmen, dothraki, ironborn, sellswords and counseled by weird people, Marwin the mage, Moqorro and other red priests and over all that hated evil twisted little monkey demon, aka the Imp. Barristan, the only who can give her good press, will be dead by then. When the realm rejects her she will become mad. Only after she turns north to defeat the Others, things may become different, but she will a controversial figure for years to come. Regarding the Dothraki, there is some criticism regarding how GRRM wrote them. Besides Drogo, there is little personification in their characters and certainly their culture allow them more than 'being rapists and slavers'. Daenerys by the way will be in a excellent position to change some cultural parameters of the Dothraki horde.
  15. 7 kingdoms as countries

    On the other hand the Lannisters have meddled a lot on the succession of all other kingdoms, sometimes even on tiny spots far away in Essos or Sothoryos that nobody cares.
  16. Who will be missed the most if he/she was killed? And why?

    oh yeah, Stannis, but he will last a bit longer. Victarion on the other hand is a toast (literally) I already miss Aemon, I wish he had met Dany
  17. The Drunk Thread: Just Drunk Enough to Theorize

    Dry martinis and gin tonics are among my favorites drinks, but somehow they give me blackouts as soon I exceed some (variable) dosage. Last time, like four hours of my life are unaccounted for. Witnesses swore they didn't notice me particularly drunk. I hate blackouts. Better, bring those mojitos!
  18. Lord of Light doesn't believe his believers

    R'hllor writes straight with crooked lines
  19. The Drunk Thread: Just Drunk Enough to Theorize

    No blackouts? Gin gives me blackouts and the worst hangovers... only matched by wheat bier
  20. - Tyrion II, ADWD How is it Illyrio? You were a very poor young selling your sword to eat but nonetheless you were able to commission a fine artwork from an (apparently) famous artist? - Tyrion I, ADWD
  21. I want to read TWOW NOW !

    No, no, no, no, no! If you are plot-addicted, I may understand you dislike ADWD, however that book (and also partially AFFC) set up such a strong groundwork for TWOW, that I'd wager we will be barely able to breath until the middle of the book, when things will slow a bit. Feast&Dance describe the aftermath of tWo5K, the unstable and unjust peace, the actions of the "crows" that feed on battle carrion, the efforts of some to bring reforms and the failure of them, the inner travels of the characters. Could have been all combined in a single book without losing its richness? Maybe, but it wasn't and although I'm somewhat critical of Feast (, I love Dance, because it is the most complex of the books.
  22. I want to read TWOW NOW !

    "Did you turn into an utter fool when Tyrion shaved your beard? This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some. If he is gone, it can only mean he intends to resume the war. Most likely he will land at Storm's End and try and rouse the storm lords. If so, he's finished. But a bolder man might roll the dice for Dorne. If he should win Sunspear to his cause, he might prolong this war for years." - Tywin Lannister
  23. I want to read TWOW NOW !

    It is almost equivalent. ASOS didn't prepare the gap, so making the gap happens caused narrative difficulties. But I also don't see - given any possible combinations of events - how the gap could possibly work. GRRM himself stated that the gap worked for character in isolation, Sansa, Arya, Bran. I'd guess Theon too. But those who are interacting are much complicated. It is not conceivable that "nothing" happens. Maybe, but still you get into troubles. Characters and situations have their own lives. Stannis wouldn't keep still, the northmen would not stand the Boltons, Dany's reforms will cause geopolitical problems, etc. And this escalates. Cersei reasonably in power will not tolerate Stannis at the Wall. The rumors of Dany and her dragons will become certain in that timespan and KL will not sit idle. So, the problem was already there, probably from the very beginnings as the broad strokes were already painted. There is clearly evolution in the books. ADWD is a very different book compared with AGOT, because the author has also evolved during this time. I'm actually quite happy with it. People often put Feast&Dance together because they share the timeline. Somehow, I cannot see this. Thematically they are different. For me Feast looks more like an interim book until Dance was ready. But this is minor stuff. Sure they are things from previous books we don't hear about in Feast&Dance, like the Black Gate or Robb's Will, but they are relatively unimportant in the larger context. The problem is how make our heroes to interact in a way that contributes to the story. This was the point of the Meereenese knot (solved now). Particularly important there is timing the arrival of Tyrion. It is the same now, I'd guess. The arrival of Dany and her dragons must be timely. If she arrives too late, the Wall has already fallen and the Others are sweeping Westeros, whilst she still entangled in Essos. Too soon and she doesn't let Aegon to take the IT and leaves chaos in her wake.
  24. I want to read TWOW NOW !

    Well, much of what happened in Feast&Dance was supposed to occur during the gap. Among the problems - Dragons still too small - Certain characters still too young. Like pre-adolescent Arya in the somewhat creepy Mercy chapter. - Overall character developments too fast. Bran requiring mere months to become a powerful greenseer, Arya becoming FM very quickly. Etc. Anyway, the problems that killing the gap avoided were much bigger. Five years with Stannis at the Wall, doing nothing? Can you imagine that? The northmen swallowing Bolton BS for five years? Cersei being able to hold the realm for five years? Etc. Biggest problem is how to bring Dany to Westeros in a timely fashion. Not to late, not too soon. She is now in the Dothraki Sea and soon will be at Vaes Dothrak, but collecting the khalasars will take a lot of time. Wraping up the remaining Essos conflicts also a bit more. This is not only narrative space problem (certain things need to be described), it also causes problems for the other timelines which must meet at certain points. BTW, I fairly convinced that an extended time line (where certain things take a bit longer) is probably very helpful for most characters. Also characters like Bran post-enlightenment, Daenerys post-ascension and Jon post-resurrection may be more difficult to write.
  25. I want to read TWOW NOW !

    We all do. There are times the feeling is almost unbearable, but I don't want it out and feel unsatisfied because of quick and cheap wrap ups. There is still anyway much to read about these books, as we see in this forum. I think it's indeed possible. There are have been external distractions but also a very complicate plot to wrap up. Also characters like Bran post-enlightenment, Daenerys post-ascension and Jon post-resurrection may be more difficult to write. Once this is solved, things can become easier. Anyway, the probabilities that GRRM will need more than two books to finish the series are in my opinion pretty high. I doubt these things will happen in TWOW, at best the Wall will fall towards the end and Dany will set sail about the same time. I like this