Leo of House Cartel

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  1. Thank you I'll have a peak and see what Pathface links I can find, but Ser Patrek could also have a link to another fool - Shagwell of the Brave Companions. The Bloody Mummer's resident jester died at the hands of another giant, Brienne. Can't argue with your logic on Trios, and nice way of connecting the mysterious faith to the various giants. Interestingly enough, all the POV mothers are killers. Cat, Cersei, Dany, and perhaps Asha, if certain theories are true. All have either killed with their own hands or ordered somene else to do the deed. We also have characters like Olenna and Lysa who have ordered murders, perhaps showing how Wun Wun and co could fill the various Trios roles. The mystery man himself! I think we may need a bit more of a reveal in regards to his backstory, but If Coldhands represents Ned, what does Hodor symbolise? Bran does ride on the giant stableboy's back via his basket.
  2. Sandor probably felt he was, in his own way, protecting Gregor. If the Mountain had killed the Knight of Flowers in front of half the realm there's a good chance someone would have demanded his execution. King Robert's highly popular younger brother was betrothed to Loras's sister after all.
  3. Sorry for the late response my friend, I've been pretty busy over the last few days. I agree about Thorne. The winter rose and thorn connection, coupled with Ser Allister's presence helping Jon in the long run would certainly put him as a father figure. That passage with Tormund, Jon and Mag does bring to mind the scene where Jon, Jarl and Ygritte scale the wall, specifically the part where chunks of ice begin to rain down. "Jon was watching them inch along when he heard the sound—a sudden crack that seemed to roll along the ice, followed by a shout of alarm. And then the air was full of shards and shrieks and falling men, as a sheet of ice a foot thick and fifty feet square broke off from the Wall and came tumbling, crumbling, rumbling, sweeping all before it. Even down at the foot of the ridge, some chunks came spinning through the trees and rolling down the slope." "The giant's lips split apart to reveal a mouth full of huge square teeth, and he made a sound half belch and half rumble. After a moment Jon realized he was laughing. The mammoth turned its massive head to regard the two of them briefly, one huge tusk passing over the top of Jon's head as the beast lumbered by, leaving huge footprints in the soft mud and fresh snow along the river. The giant shouted down something in the same coarse tongue that Tormund had used." Quite a few crossovers, what do you think? Seams, I must say your evidence is very convincing. Tormund's voice in particular. If you are correct that Tormund may in fact fulfill the role of the Horn then the idea of amongst many in the fandom that Sam has has the real horn could be an ironic example of "power residing where men believe it does" I like the for-king and thin-king allusion, that's something I'll be keeping an eye out for in future re-reads. Noye could represents a bit of Rhaegar and Robert both, considering all three died in a "river" as you said. Your previously mentioned dragon/giant collusion could also play into Mag representing the "son" Jon.
  4. Thanks for your input Seams, you have a sharp eye for detail and I always enjoy the way you break things down. Nice catch with the Blackwater/Mag the Mighty crossover. Could we consider Noye's passing as an aspect of Jon's symbolic death and rebirth? Perhaps as part of the "kill the boy" idea? Donal does give Jon plenty of sage advice during the course of the story, and could be considered one of Snow's main mentors during his initial time with the Watch. With Noye and Jeor gone, and Aemon soon to follow, Jon now has no real elder mentor figures left amongst the Crows. The one armed blacksmith also forged Robert's warhammer, which eventually killed Jon's father. Could his death also point towards "new steel" at The Wall, or some kind of "re-forging". I dig this. An interesting concept, and Tormund himself does go by several handles which have "loud" and "wall breaking" connotations - Tall Talker, Breaker of Ice, Thunderfist and Horn Blower. The alias "Giant's Bane" could relate to "Waking giants from the earth", after all, giants traditionally like their slumber, wouldn't they consider a walking alarm clock to be a bane? By this theory do you reckon there is still a physical Horn of Joramund? Your idea of giants being symbolic dragons also has alot a weight. If I may, I'd like to add a few. Waking giants from the earth - Waking dragons from stone Then Jocelyn was bending over her, wrapping her in a soft clean blanket of green wool to cover her nakedness. A shadow fell across them both, blotting out the sun. (Compare this to) Balerion . . . his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed overhead." We have Euron's Dragon Horn, said to be taken from the ruins of Old Valyria, and the fake horn Mance first displays - which turns out to have been taken from a giant's barrow. The Titan of Braavos - the "protector" of an escaped Valyrian slave colony. The Umber's castle Last Hearth - interesting that drunken and roaring giants make their home in the "Final Fire" Ser Patrek of King's Mountain being a euphamism for "Father of the Red Keep" certainly works. Both Patrek's and Tywin's death at the hands of "giants" dramatically changed the landscape of both the Lannister regime and Night's Watch. Ser Patrek's blue and silver attire with a starry cloak has much in common with Ser Hugh of The Vale's choice of raiment, blue and silver with crescent moons. Both share similiar colours decorated with astrological symbols, and both die at the hands of giants. I like the idea of giants as mother figures, perhaps this is why George snuck in the bit about male and female members of the species looking similiar. All the names you listen certainly do go through major shifts during these encounters with giants. Great work my friend.
  5. I wonder if he will. His Boar "rooting around the graves" certainly gave me pause, what's he looking for? That Borroq and his buddy decide to make their abode in an ancient tomb in also pretty conspicuous. Could they be recieving messages from the Old Gods? The big wildling refers to Jon as "brother", an olive branch to a fellow skinchanger perhaps? I'm not sure how one would even go about fighting a well muscled Boar of human height. Some kind of matadore scenario? Look at how well Robb and Grey Wind fought together against armoured knights, and that's whilst the direwolf was young and Stark was not directly warging him - imagine what a well seasoned skinchanger like Borroq might be able to do if he and his gargantuan Boar decide to join the fight. I imagine the Flint and the Norrey considered Marsh and his cronies to be a bunch of cravenous southerners even before Jon's assasination. Betraying the son of "The Ned", bastard or no, will be viewed in a similiar light to the events of the Red Wedding. Satin seems like a capable guy, hopefully he sruvives a while. One of Jon's main allies pretty much has to die in this situation don't they? What!? That southron milk!? Nitpicking is always welcome dude! I wonder if it's the mulled wine favoured by the Old Bear? What's the stuff Jon drinks that feels like tendrills of fire creeping down his throat? I can't remember the circumtances, but I always took it to be some kind of "wildling whisky"? I don't know if this is wishful thinking on my part, but I reckon there's a chance Rickon will be seen as some kind of King like figure by the Skagosi. He's been there for like a year, plenty of time for his powers to develop. If anything I reckon that living what might essentially be a wildling life would hasten Rickon's skinchanging ability - more time to run free. It's fascinating to think how much more wolfish Rickon might be, due to spending so much time with his direwolf His sibling have all undergone substantial development in their arcs, and while Rickon may still be a child, I imagine Osha will see he matures quickly, that's just how the Free Folk seem to raise there kids. Shaggy and Slick Rick always prefered a walk on the wild side, I imagine they will have taken to their new home quite well. We have already seen Shaggydog feasting on a beast, showing that there is at least some positivity to their current situation. As to Skagos and Skane themselves, they could contain some real treats. If the Old Tongue is prevailent on these islands, then what other Old Northern things might we find? How about some Skanish Giants? Gotta get them Unicorns, Davos and Manderly's mission is pointless otherwise
  6. Well put. I wonder which human was first to break the pact, and if their line still exists. I'm a fan of the idea that The Rogue Prince still lives. As you said, he would make a fine liason between the reader and the Green Men. Considering both Daemon and Addam were in that general area during TPATQ, what significance do you think The First Battle of The God's Eye between Maegor and Aegon holds? Could Balerion and Quicksilver's dance hold any bearing on the Green Men's future encounter with Addam and Daemon's final resting place? Tremendous! I'll need to give this one a few reads over dude, talk about a can of worms! I like the general idea and your connections between the colours of Garth, Grey King and the forks of the Trident make for very compelling reading. You mentioned Bloodstone, which was the lair or The Rogue Prince and his beloved Blood Wyrm, I wonder what significance this could hold, considering Daemon's connection to the God's Eye. Both you and @Lord Varys make great points about the original culture of the very First Men, before they assimilated into the Old God's belief system. How might House Dustin of Barrowtown be connected to all of this? We know the stories of "corpse lords" and their claim of direct descent from the First King. I always wondered why George added that one in.
  7. That's a really nice quote isn't it? Very lush with imagery in regards to the cultural shift, my faviroute part has to be; For as long as he had known it, Castle Black had been a place of silence and shadows, where a meagre company of men in black moved like ghosts amongst the ruins of a fortress that had once housed ten times their numbered. All that had changed. Lights now shone through windows where Jon Snow had never seen lights shine before. How ominous is it that Jon would compare the dwindling Crows to ghosts, while also making a connection between the Free Folk and "shining lights"? The old school blood of the First Men beliefs seem to be dripping over into the rest of Westeros too The Mountain Clans of The Vale are said to be getting bold, and might not want to stay in their barren hills when winter comes. We already have a contingent of them wreaking havoc in the Kingswood. The Mountain Clans of Norrey, Flint and such are already in the Central North, and each has a very traditional way of thinking. Considering there are multiple branches of House Flint, they could hold great power in the events of TWOW. The Skagosi could have reason to sail to the mainland, should they have developed some connection to Rickon. The Weeper has passed The Wall, along with a crew of bloodthirsty raiders. Mance and his spearwives are already in Winterfell, who knows what influence they may hold over future events. The whole "North Remembers" way of thinking does seem to have emboldened certain Northerners. The Red Wedding was considered by many up North to be an infamous breech of sacred laws. It's almost like it spurred many towards a more Old Gods-centric way of thinking. How many Northerners will become more pious in their faith when Winter finally comes?
  8. The way you have laid all the details out does paint a good picture Sandman. There seems to be too many connections between Garth, his rumoured kin, the Green Men and various others. Why exactly the Hoares chose the banks of the God's Eye as location for their castle has always interested me. The use of weirwood for beams and rafters is troubling too.. I hadn't put much thought into the Baratheon green armour and antlered helm being connected to the Green Men, but it is a striking visual when you think about it. Considering old Durran's battles with the Singers over the Rainwood, aswell as his rumoured connection to Bran the Builder, I think you might be on to something. I suppose the old "Renly's green eyes" retcon could hold a deeper significance in the grand scheme of things. @40 Thousand Skeletons fantastic post, I'll get round to reading your weirwoods as tree people theory at some point today. In regards to those skulls in the niche Based on your theory, how would you feel about the roots working their way through the animal skulls perhaps indicating the ability for bears, wolves and giants to use greensight? I've been a proponent of this idea ever since I first read that chapter, why else would the skulls be in such a place of honour whilst the floor is literally carpeted in bones. Your post has just given the idea more weight IMO. We know through Summer that direwolves have a culture of their own and are capable of emotions. Elder races such as Direwolves, Giants and Great Lions would have been near weirwoods long before humans, so why would they too not fit the criteria for going into the trees upon death? I wonder if we might get a glimpse of the first Long Night during Bran's training.
  9. @Angel Eyes Perhaps because the Tullys claim to place Family and Duty before Honour. Cat doesn't really view Jon as family. She feels her duty is to her kin, aswell as to highborn Westerosi ideals, and Jon's parentage is a "stain" on her prim and perfect view of what she wants from a marriage. She could honour her husband and Jon's siblings more by making life a bit easier for the bastard, but for selfish reasons chooses otherwise. In all honesty, Sandor's "trained bird" description of Sansa would fit Cat too. She displays clear bigotry towards bastards, as is the want of many highborn nobles - look at the way she first percieves Mya Stone, although she does seem to warm toward Robert's bastard towards the end of the mule trail.
  10. I agree that Wun Wun is rather occupied at the moment, and a giant in the passionate throws of rage is too unpredictable for us readers to properly guess which way the wind will blow him. I'm not sure if a giant would look at the betrayal as a "reasonable execution". Wun Wun probably does view Jon as a bit of a "nutty Lord Commander", just on the basis of Snow's non Free Folk human culture being alien to the giant. That said, Jon has been pretty helpful to Wun Wun, feeding and watering him while also giving him sanctuary from the Others. Giants are clearly intelligent enough to comprehend such good treatment. When we first see Mag the Mighty he and Tormund are cracking jokes about Jon's "feminine" appearance. Lazy joke or no, a sence of humour is a sign of intelligence and abstract thought. As Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun has been given the position of Val's protector, and Val clearly views Jon in a positive light, I think theres a great chance the beer loving giant will take offence to Jon's stabbing, if he notices that is. I'm not sure why he wouldn't notice Jon's betrayal, close as he is. He might even smell Jon's blood/death, if the the big man's constant sniffing and snuffling is anything to go by. While his main goal will be to protect himself, the sight of one of his few allies bleeding out on the ground has a great chance of enraging Wun Wun even more. Now I'm wondering if Val might attempt a coup of her own at Castle Black. The harshness in her tone while discussing Shireen's condition was pretty unnerving. If Val really does see the girl's Greyscale as having the potential to wipe out everyone at Castle Black, quickening the Other's victory as it would, then one would think this would be playing on her mind constantly. The mayhem unfolding could be the perfect distaction for Val and her Free Folk to take control of the Wall; if no one else is going to "prevent the grey scale from spreading", then Val might even feel it is her duty to take command and dispose of the child. Val simply making some kind of deal with Mel to get rid of Shireen could serve the same purpose As a fan of Val, I'm not sure how I would feel about her burning Shireen, but such a controversial move from a pretty well respected character would no doubt make for wild reading! The Arch Maester of the Old Gods! That mask is very jazzy, wearing weirwood so close to one's third eye does give the impression that she might have "visions" of her own. With all this trouble at Castle Black, the Old God's may have alerted this woman in the white mask to whats going on. Such a high profile member of the community being absent from the shieldhall is puzzling. If she is already at Castle Black then I've gotta wonder if she is planning something big, away from any prying eyes. I do think this is the direction we are heading. The Lord Commander takes Mance's place, aswell as possibly the titles once held by Stannis and Robb Stark. Tormund Tall Talker already has a crown anyway, and I can't see "The Mead King of Ruddy Hall" being too effective at the long term governing of his people Val, Morna, Borroq, Wun Wun and Leathers; the old ways are certainly returning. It's almost like Castle Black has went back in time by thousands of years. I think these Free Folk, each of whom probably wouldn't be out of place in the Dawn Era, will have a big hand in bringing forward more traditional Northern vaules to Jon and his allies. They will need that old school grit in the wars to come.
  11. Hey yo Ice C. I was more refering to the original settlers of Valyria, who were said to tend to sheep before finding the dragons. From the wiki; "Valyria was once a minor civilization of peaceful sheep-herding folk dwelling on the Valyrian peninsula, until the Valyrians discovered dragons lairing in the Fourteen Flames, a ring of volcanoes on the peninsula. The Valyrians tamed the dragons with magic and mastered the technique of raising and training the dragons into devastating weapons of war. Take that with a pinch of salt, as by this point there are numerous variations on the Valyrian origin story, each with their respective merits and flaws. In regards to Miri's plan to bring back dragons, you might be on to something dude. Remember in AGOT where Miri discusses her tutelage in the dark arts? There are several clues based around her tutor in later books. Keep reading homie! As far as I'm aware Miri's people the Lhazareen don't have a direct connection to Old Valyria. With their almond eyes, copper skin and black hair, the Lamb Men seem like they may share origins with the Dothraki.
  12. I hope you have the right of it. A guy named the Old Pomegranate kinda has to meet his end in a pulpy mess doesn't he? Hopefully Wun Wun twists his top off and drinks him like a bottle of that "Pom" stuff. I wonder when Morna and company are due back. If they are close enough they might even hear the giant's roars, which would no doubt hasten their approach. I understand the shieldhall is some distance from Wun Wun, Bowen and Jon, but I can't see how Wun Wun's howling won't be picked up by at least one of Tormunds crew. Great points all. It's interesting to note how Bowen may have just initiated a power vaccum by knocking off the LC, while Jon seemed to avoid such an outcome from the Free Folk when he killed Mance. We didn't hear of any battles for Rayder's former position, although the Free Folk were seperated into several different groups, so such events could certainly be taking place. Of the Wildlings at the Wall, Tormund could be looked at as a de facto-King to his people, based on the fact that he calls more shots and has more influence with the general Wildling populace. We can look at Val as the de-facto Queen beyond the Wall, again due to her influence, the way other Free Folk treat her, aswell as her familial connection to Mance's child. Jon could almost be called the interim Hand of The King Beyond The Wall, as he aids Tormund and his people in a political sence. By the way he delivers that speech in the shieldhall, rousing the Free Folk into agreeing to fight for him, I imagine if Jon wanted to be King Beyond The Wall a great portion of the people might accept him. There's a great chance you are correct my friend. Ever since i first noticed how Jon had pretty much signed up a freakin' giant to his cause I've had a bad feeling it will turn out to be too good to be true. What a powerful ally to have on the field, and all of humanity is better off having him on their side. There's something deviously poetic about the idea of the Watch getting a new ally who posseses super strength, only for that newcomer to be killed by men who are fighting for the same side. That being said, the heavy snow on the ground and general weather conditions might make it hard for armoured Knights and thickly layered Crows to move around quickly in the immediate battle. Giants have those powerful legs and splayed feet, perfect for bounding through the snow - Wun Wun might actually have the speed advantage in this situation, and if that's the case then it's gonna take a lot to bring the big guy down. Val might be key to this whole situation. If she has been harmed in any way then the Free Folk will probably take this matter even more personally than they no doubt will. If she is unharmed, what will her reaction be when she looks out the window and sees Ser Partek's corpse doing it's best impression of Sweetrobin's doll?
  13. The giant and Jon seem pretty tight, considering the wildling friendly Lord Commander gave Wun Wun the sanctuary of Castle Black, provided him with beer and vegetables, and went to the trouble of learning a bit of the old tongue. Having already been enraged by Ser Patrek, how will Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun react to Jon's assasination? Will the conspirators or the Queen's Men be able to stop him?
  14. There does seem to be something to this rumour, although one could certainly take the Blood of The Dragon idea to be simple Valyrian posturing. Never the less, there are quite a few hints in the text Reptilian featured Targ kids such as Rhaego and Rhaenyra's daughter. The City of the Winged Men, located in eastern Essos, is said to be the haunt of humans who fly upon leathern wings. There seems to have been a fair bit of Umbrella corporation/Dr. Moroe style bio engineering going on in the Freehold. Valyrians were known to mate woman with beast in places such as Gorgossos. The dragon dreams of Dany, Aerion Brightflame and others. Valyrian sphinxes - the body of a dragon and face of a woman. The Freehold notoriously battered the Ghiscari in five consecutive wars. How much of their enemies culture did they take interest in? The scions of Grazdan were known for their love of harpy based imagery, perhaps the Valyrians were inspired by these hybrid statues and sought to turn themselves into humanoid dragons. The Valyrians themselves could somehow have evolved from dragons. If you look at the shape of Drogon and co in TWOIAF Dany illustration, Drogon does have some humanoid characteristics such as his torso, chest and "hands". The Valyrians do claim descent from their fiery companions, this could explain the original "sheep farmers who found the dragons in the 14 flames", and why a bunch of human farmers were living in a mountainous active volcano range.
  15. From The Rogue Prince.... "The voice belonged to the youngest of his half nephews, Joffrey Velaryon, a boy of three. Always an early riser, Joff had sneaked down from his bed to see his own young dragon, Tyraxes. Afraid that the boy would raise the alarm, Prince Aemond slapped him, shouted at him to be quiet, then shoved him backward into "a pile of dragon droppings."