Leo of House Cartel

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About Leo of House Cartel

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  1. I and many others have had had the same hopes for a while now Couldn't say why Oberyn might not have acknowledged Gerold, if it indeed was the case that the Viper was his sire. I guess it could just be another one of those Sunspear long play conspiracy scenarios if Darkstar and Doran were in cahoots over Myrcella's attack - a bit of unknown "venom" cold certainly help in any plans to poison the Lannister rule. I'm not sure about the situation with his parentage anyway. I think some people take Arianne's apparent fancying of the Viper, as well as Gerold's black streak and the tension between he and Arianne as evidence of Oberyn being his dad.
  2. No doubt that the truth behind a lot of these legendary figures is far less exotic than the singers would have us believe. It's also worth noting that the truth behind a few of these fables may be even more impressive than the telling of the tale. If it is the case that Balon's "black skin" was merely a confused reference to a suit of armour then I wonder how much more advanced the early IB were than their green lander counterparts. It would be pretty ironic if the Iron Born were at one point a kind of technological powerhouse in Westeros - their ship building and skill with ocean navigation apparently always being superior to the rest of the people in the country anyway. I've seen it speculated a few times that the suit may have also perhaps been made of Valyrian/dragon steel, due to the impervious nature of the skin and the story of Balon being quite ancient. This could suggest an IB connection to a proto Valyrian civilisation, perhaps the GEOTD? What do you think?
  3. I'm not sure, but there could be a case for the Deep Ones being the first intelligent culture in all of Planetos, if life did begin in the sea, that is. The following quote does raise some questions. "Ice dragons notwithstanding, the true kings of these northern waters are the whales. Half a dozen types of these great beasts make their homes in the Shivering Sea, amongst them grey whales, white whales, humpbacks, savage spotted whales with their hunting packs (which many call the wolves of the wild sea), and the mighty leviathans, the oldest and largest of all the living creatures of the earth". - The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Shivering Sea Would these mighty beasts predate even the Children? I'm assuming the Leviathans of ASOIAF, as whales, would be mammalian, so one might not want to connect a creature that breathes air with one who probably relies on gills such as the Deep Ones. Still, this does perhaps point to life in the oceans of Planetos existing for long before terrestrial entities. That's an interesting connection between Balon Blackskin and greyscale. If this is the case then how might Balon retain his mental capabilities with such an advanced case on the illness? Well, if the early IB really did have some fish based DNA then perhaps these genetics could somehow help subvert the greyscale's effect on ones mind, what with the disease being often associated with watery areas. We have quite the interesting list of "black" things related to the IB, I wonder how they might all connect. Balon's "Black Skin" "black blood" of House Hoare , The "oily black stone" - used to carve the Seastone chair and often seem by watersides across Planetos. The "black, soul drinking IB weaponry" The black hair of the Greyjoys Euron's Black eye Great question about the Rhoynish and Iron Born - I can'y quite say who came first, but what I find odd is that both these cultures are highly talented, yet somewhat underrated by history in regards to the art of metal craft. The Rhoynar were said to have been working iron even before the likes of the Valyrians, while the Iron Born have their old natural abundance of iron ore as well as the fact that they have the metal in their name. Both live hand in hand with the sea, and both were eventually brought to heal by enemies with superior tech.
  4. @Curled Finger Note how Craster, the Crannogs and Codds have several similarities Each represent an element -ice, water and earth They all live in difficult to navigate terrain. They each have some connection to humanoid species - Others, Singers and perhaps Squishers They all specialise in either trapping or kidnapping All are feared or mistrusted by their neighbours. We also have a culture of rape and forced pregnancies with Craster and the Codds. While I can't think of a fire based character with these exact traits, the culture of slavery seen in old Valyria and present day Red Temples does fit somewhat. CF, I'd most enjoy hearing your thoughts on this mysterious Silver Sea - where might we put this location on a historical timeline? I wonder what significance these now dwindling lakes might have had on magic or human migration in the area. @hiemal Well, the women of the house are said to lay with their brothers and fathers, I wonder if there is some truth to this - perhaps the Codds low social standing does indeed mean they do indeed resort to incest, there's probably a good chance the male figureheads of the house have a more Craster style of parenting, if their familial reputation is anything to go by. Perhaps this "keeping the blood pure" is even down to some genetic hangover from the days of the Deep Ones. As to Lucas, if we look at the left hand side of a map of Westeros then we see the great unknown of the Sunset Sea. The East is often rumoured to have been home to either the Deep Ones or FM who found the Seastone chair so I wonder if Lucas "Left Hand" Codd's name could serve as another hint towards these creatures from the waves. Reading Feast back, one can clearly see how Lucas is high on Euron's chain of command- it is Lucas who takes dragonbinder from the wounded Cragorn, and the Left Hand voices his opinion more often than any of Greyjoys other dogs. I suppose Dagon Codd would have ventured through a "black mire" of his own during his encounters with the bog devils, be it the swampy terrain leading up to Moat Cailin or the shit seeping out of his poisoned Iron Men... Funny to think that the Iron King's right hand man is some due named "Left hand Lucas".
  5. Man, that's a great catch with the Reeds "elemental oaths, what power may lie in those words? I wonder if Howland Reed's time at the God's Eye revealed some major truths about these magical forces to the Lord of Greywater Watch. Categorising these elemental factors into Natural, Technological and Unnatural seems pretty wise too. Coupled with your proposed order of events and I certainly feel like your on to something Ser!
  6. @Rufus Snow I can't argue with that, and your mentions of the Rhoynar Long Night, as well as "water melting ice" certainly draw many questions. It's interesting to think of Ice and Fire magic as unnatural and perhaps in direct competition with water and tree based forces, and if this is indeed the case then I wonder how pure the Song of Ice and Fire itself might be.
  7. @Rufus Snow Fine points my friend, you are correct that George uses peoples perceptions of the unknown to cloud the judgement of readers, look at how the Free Folk are described by everyone but Jon! I think a good chunk of the world building material will be just this. Sometime I have even wondered if the Brindled Men of Sothoryos are merely large, dark skinned people who wear white ceremonial/war paint like certain African tribes, their brindled skin a result of scarification processes popular in many tribal areas in the real world.If this is the case then it may have been these people who first settled in the Summer Isles or vice-versa. Then again, while we have no hard proof of many curiosities such as Deep Ones and Giant/human breeding, there is always the chance that George is keeping such reveals for later texts. We had no real proof that Mel could really use magical powers until we saw her birth the shadow baby so anything is possible in future books. What are your thoughts on Rhoynar water wizards? Do you think this an example of Valyrian posturing? Something like "oh they only killed a few of our dragons because they had a goddamn hydro sorceror!" or is there some truth behind the matter? The reason I ask is that we have already seen examples of the Others using ice based powers - be they natural or unnatural - ice is obviously frozen water, so I wonder if there is any link between the two. If the Deep Ones do exist, would the ice/water connection have any bearings on their relationship to the Others? I wonder how the Iron Born, or even the Deep Ones would view the tales of Rhoynar water wizards. This could play into @Curled Finger's original line of questioning, as the Rhoynar, like the FM, would have had to either been able to use water magic since their beginnings, or something would have had to teach them such arts. Perhaps the Deep Ones and the Rhoynar share the similar relationship to how we view the FM and COTF. In regards to the Iron Born, I find it interesting we have no accounts of some Greyjoy or Hoare summoning a water wall (which I always took as some kind of whirpool on land/aqua tornado).
  8. Great question, but sadly I'm not sure. Judging by the Dayne secrecy over the last 13 years, as well as their lack of presence at the Sugar Skull Feast, one could make the argument that Doran, himself highly secretive, has some kind of deal with the Daynes to keep them out of the general Dornish focus. This could certainly be due to some knowledge of Jon, but the lack of substantial evidence in regards to the matter could put a halt to this line of thinking. Then again, if Darkstar knows RLJ, and is he is indeed the Viper's son, then I can't see any reason why Gerold wouldn't share this information with his family in Sunspear. Lord Edric Dayne seems to have his own theories on Jon's mother, but I wonder how the other Dayne's see things.
  9. Leng's history goes back almost as far as that of Yi Ti itself, but little and less of it is known west of the Jade Straits. There are queer ruins in the depths of the island's jungle: massive buildings, long fallen, and so overgrown that rubble remains above the surface...but underground, we are told, endless labyrinths of tunnels lead to vast chambers, and carved steps descend hundreds of feet into the earth. No man can say who might have built these cities, or when. They remain perhaps the only remnant of some vanished people. TWOIAF In certain places, ancient carved steps and hidden tunnels and passages exist for those who know how to find them. Yet many of these paths are treacherous, and others are dead ends or traps for the unwary. - TWOIAF Just a few extra ones for your list, lets not forget the dothraki and Jogos Nhai, based in part on people of the steppes. I've wondered about the comparisons between Harrenhal and Winterfell - both share notable towers, with stairs leading up to destroyed architecture, towers which each saw "dragons" at some point near a destruction event, through Balerion and Bran's vision in ACOK. Yes! How about the fact that Green Sight seem to "stare" into the past, and skinchangers are technically "staring" through another set of eyes,
  10. @Free Northman Reborn How might some form of evolution affect things in Planetos? (I hope you will excuse my rather crude attempts at anthropology) Let's say life in ASOIAF began in the ocean, with various species over time evolving into land dwellers and such. Could the Deep Ones just be a form of fish who have gone down a somewhat similar genetic course to real world humans? As to the human - ape relationship in ASOIAF. While we have no direct in reference in the book to such Darwinian theories, medieval studies of the matter were certainly few and far between, so the maesters and other learned minds of Planetos can be forgiven for not touching upon it. That being said, let's have a look at Sothoryos. Jaenara Belaerys flew her dragon, Terrax, farther south than any man or woman had ever gone before, seeking the boiling seas and steaming rivers of legend, but found only endless jungle, deserts, and mountains. She returned to the Freehold after three years to declare that Sothoryos was as large as Essos, "a land without end." - The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos This quote would paint it that Jaenara's mission was unfruitful, as she apparently didn't find any major settlements or technologies, however, I wonder how many of the fauna listed in TWOIAF was first discovered by this adventurer. Surely the Green Hell would be impossible to get into and out of unless one had some serious firepower/getaway vehicle? Due to some Valyrians fondness for keeping certain Sothoryi wildlife as pets, Jaenara and Terrax's journey may have been very influential to the overall Freehold culture Close to Sothoryos lies Gorgossos, which was eventually used by the more twisted dragonlords as a genetic tampering creche, with human being mated to animal. The big boned brindled men could certainly be looked at as some union between men, ape and perhaps hog. Listed fauna in the area of Sothoryos, the Basilisk Isles and Summer Isles include numerous apes. The "Old Red Men" of Omboru - Orangutan? "Silver Pelts" in the mountains of Jhala - Silver back Mountain Gorillas? "Night Stalkers" on Walano - Nocturnal primates like some deadly version of a tarsier? King Kong in the forests south of Yeen, who dwarf the largest giants - I'll get back to this is a moment. Over the water in the forests of Leng, we find other primates Ten Million Monkeys, per Longstrider The Great Apes of Leng, I pressume this is an all encompassing term as other species arementions, perhaps chimpanzees are included. Spotted Humpback Apes - not sure about this one Hooded Apes - Gigantopithecus? So here we have multiple species of ape, as well as the possible hybrid natured Brindled Men (they may even be spotted humpbacks who have evolved into a more neanderthal like species. Many have postulated that Giants predate humans in ASOIAF, with certain peoples like the Ibbenese and Maze Makers sharing traits with Mag, Wun Wun and co. If this is indeed the case then I wonder what came before the Giants. Over in the Bone Mountains, we hear tails of the Jhogwin, a race of extra tall Giants who apparently have some rock based characteristics. The long stretching mountain range sounds like a place lost to time, so the snow capped Krazaaj Zasqa could indeed be the origin place of all giants. Then again, if we look at things from an evolution standpoint then how about that Sothoryi King Kong or the Lengii King Louie being the genetic ancestor to both Giants and Jhogwin? In ASOIAF, Giants have ape like pelts and posture, with long arms, sloping brows and a tendency to roar. This might seem circumstantial, but the sizes and traits do add up. The resultant genetic course might look something like Kong/Louie-Jhogwin-Giants-Mazemakers-Ibbenese, but I'm merely speculating here so feel free to do your own math!
  11. I've seen several good theories surrounding The Most Dangerous Man In Dorne. The main ones seems to be.. Gerold is from Maegor Targaryens branch of the family tree, with a key point being how House Dayne would likely be the best place for Aerion's son to go, as his Grandmother was a Dayne. Little Maegor may have been adopted into the Daynes and perhaps even married one of his kin over the years. Gerold as Oberyn's bastard - The dark eyes, atraction to Arianne, black streak in his hair, combat prowess and "dangerous" handle certainly do bring the Viper to mind, and let's not forget Darkstar was of course, weaned on venom He is a bastard of Aerys/Rhaegar and Ashara - the Valyrian traits and dangerous title again play into much of this theory. Ashara's peculiar movements during the Rebellion, when linked with Arthur's relationship with Rhaegar and their potentially frosty situation with the mad king, could certainly be linked to some Targaryen/Dayne breeding. He was Arthur Dayne's squire at the Tower of Joy - his age matches up, and again, the danger is present. I'm not sure what to believe, but if Doran's famous quote is anything to go by, Darkstar does have something in his backstory worth fearing. It this point it may even be that the truth of the matter is present in a few of these theories. Just for fun, let's say Maegor Brightflame was indeed sent to live with his Grandmothers family in Dorne, to best avoid the politics of KL. The assembled members of House Dayne may have wanted to mix the blood of the dragon into their own line, for obvious reasons. Fast forward a few years and Maegor may have found himself betrothed to one of his cousins, probably training under watch of the Master at Arms of Starfall (and what a storied position that must be). In this time I see no reason why the son of Aerion wouldn't have developed into the of the most skilled swordsmen in all of Westeros - more reason for the Daynes to marry one of their women to this forsaken Prince. In time, the apparently recently built keep of High Hermitage may have been granted to this celestial Dragon, allowing he and whatever family he may have started of his own a chance to carve out their own place. Maegor may have had numerous children, all with the Dayne name instead of Targaryen. Even Arthur, Ashara and Allyria may even be of his direct line, with High Hermitage going to another child. A young Arthur Dayne might have bonded with Rhaegar over such talk. There has to be some starting point for their famous bromance, and a few drops of dragon blood can always do wonders when enamouring oneself to a dragon, if Brown Ben in anything to go by. Considering the Red Viper has already displayed an attraction to woman of Valyrian stock, one can imagine he would get up to all sorts of mischief is he ventured into the potentially Maegor occupied Red Mountains, especially if he knew of this Bright Prince's true nature. Again, this is mere speculation but if Oberyn did indeed sire a bastard on a female of the famously honourable Dayne's, then there could be a chance the child would be legitimised by the mother's house - the Lords of Starfall have been quiet since the Rebellion, paranoia may run deep around the Torrentine, yet Dayne pride may be swelling even more. And around ten years later here stands Darkstar, ready to become a squire, destined to squire for his cousin Arthur at the Tower of Joy. After the Sword of The Morning was killed and Robert had taken power, House Dayne would have much reason to keep Gerold hidden away, due to his Valyrian features and whatever knowledge he may have aquired about Lyanna Stark. High Hermitage - a fascinating name, one that suggests a long sabbatical and raises many questions in regards to the current Dayne MO. The keeps location, close to the TOJ, is highly interesting, and one does have to wonder how history plays in to the name of the cadet Dayne's place of residence.
  12. @Curled Finger Tremendous conversation to start with some real tantalising theories getting thrown about! While I can't offer a solid answer of my own to your original question, I would like to reference the human connection to the carvers of the Seastone chair. @hiemal Your work in this thread has been awesome and you paint a fantastic picture of potential early events. As you have a fondness for the ocean centred aspect of things, how do you and our OP feel the members of House Codd may play into proceedings? Apparently the least regarded of the reaving IB houses, I feel that they themselves may offer plenty of hints towards the nature of the Deep Ones, Squishers and Merlings - perhaps more evidence hidden in plain sight from George. Maester Theron's illustrations in the ominously titled "Strange Stones" postulates that the religion of the Drowned God had it's beginnings with the Deep Ones, which is interesting considering the priests of the Drowned God like Sauron Salt Tongue would tell you that the Ironborn are more closely related to aquatic life than they are to the humans of the green lands. What's odd about this is that a fish like appearance is more common in areas such as The Three Sisters, Isle of Toads or Thousand Isles than it is on the Iron Isles. In saying that, we do have the members of House Codd. Here is a description of Dagon Codd. We also have the captain of the Lamentation, "Bloodless" Tom Codd. This handle could be related to the famous Codd cowardice, but considering Tom is a ship captain, I think it more likely points at "dead white flesh". House Codd has an ill repute on the Iron Islands, itself a place with the worst reputation in Westeros, which really tells you how bad these people must be. "The Codds were there, though every decent man despised them" - A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain "One of the Codds even tried to kiss Lord Ramsay's ring, but the hounds drove him back before he could get close, and Alison took a chunk of his ear. Even as the blood streamed down his neck, the man bobbed and bowed and praised his lordship's mercy". - A Dance with Dragons - Reek II In these quotes we see the Codds engage begging to Ramsay in a very unsightly manner. Considering the Ironborn culture is rooted in rape and reaving, something the Codds enjoy, what constitutes as "indecent behaviour" to the IB? Is it simply the cowardly acts such as kissing Ramsays ring which draws the ire of their country men, or something more sinister? One angle we could look at is the similiar behavioural patters displayed by certain members of House Codd and the various humanoid aquatic races, each of whom may of course be one and the same "Though All Men Do Despise Us," Tris said, "but if they catch you in those nets of theirs, you'll be as dead as if they had been dragonlords". - A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter At some point Left-Hand Lucas Codd decided he wanted one of Lord Hewett's daughters, so he took her on a table whilst her sisters screamed and sobbed. A Feast for Crows - The Reaver "The Codds were not well regarded in the Iron Islands; the men were said to be thieves and cowards, the women wantons who bedded with their own fathers and brothers. It did not surprise him that his uncle had chosen to leave these men behind when the Iron Fleet went home.” - Theon Greyjoy's thoughts at Moat Cailin Here we see the Codds being described as having strange sexual habits, a fondness for sexual abuse and an apparent gift for "trapping" if those nets are anything to go by. What's the story with those nets anyway? One would think having strong fishing equipment would endear a brood to the general Iron Men populace in some ways. "As dead as if they had been Dragonlords" seems like quite the compliment for Asha to bestow on a family of cravens, giving a good insight into how brutal the Codds can be to the people they catch. Compare this to the following description of the squishers "They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man's got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They're always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind those blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don't you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth." Essentially, the Codds look like the squishers, and both are known to kidnap/trap their victims before either murdering or breeding with them. Whether or not this is a result of the ancestors of House Codd being some of those small kids taken by the squishers one can not say, but the description of the family's forefathers being "thralls and salt wives" could be construed as slaves and hostages of these grim ocean dwellers. "Though all men do despise us" - the words of House Codd. Perhaps this is some loose reference to the Deep Ones, Squishers or such. We also have Dagon Codd's infamous "Dagon Codd yields to no man" bit - this could also be looked at as Dagon having a distane for humans, perhaps he would be more than willing to yield for some squamous, fish headed type. I'm not trying to say that House Codd will be some important factor in the next books, but I do believe this lowly family serve as evidence towards the inter species breeding mentioned [email protected] and @kissdbyfire. The white skinned net weilders might even have a stronger blood link to The Grey King, Deep Ones or Drowned God than the rest of the Iron Born. There are the stories of people laying with beasts from various places like Asshai and Gorgossos, as well as the seal based rumours surrounding House Farwynd, the Crannogmen's connection to the COTF and the various Ocean based mythologies, much evidence, yet still no clarity.
  13. If the glass candles are anything to go by, perhaps your average non-dragonlord Valyrian would have been too paranoid to attempt to claim their own pup for fear of being watched by some dark figure. That said, the Freehold certainly lasted long enough for such actions to take place, and having ones own fire breathing flying friend would certainly seem to be a tantalising prospect to any member of a race who claim to basically be evolved humanoid dragons. Think of the dragons themselves and how hard it might be to prevent a pregnant dragon from flying off if it decides to go for a wander - any Valyrian dragon could have flew to some Essosi Dragon Stone of their own and left a clutch just waiting to be found.
  14. A fine way of looking at things, you are correct that Aegon had many reasons for his melancholy. Your bit about the Dragonbane potentially suffering more than other men due to the Dance was very poignant - he had lost it all before he even hit puberty, due to the violence and machinations of his own kin, all that remained was a bunch of string pullers until he came of age to make his own moves. Good work noting Aegon V's choice of crown, this seemed like a bit of a red flag to me that all was not as it seemed with Aegon III, the fact that Viserys II and Aegon V, two of the better kings, chose the Dragonsbane's crown would indicate he did something worth respecting during his reign, otherwise why choose the crown of the King who the dragons died under? Do you think the downplaying of Aegon V's reign by Yandel perhaps point towards similiar sentiment towards Aegon III? The likes of Marwyn hint at an anti-Targaryen/dragon biased amongst the Citadel, and the Dance that killed most of Aegon III's family and their dragons was mainly due to the aspirations of certain members of the Oldtown ruling Hightowers. Another great angle to take, the Roose Bolton quote fits well with how Aegon III has been portrayed and I can't see any fault in the logic that Aegon III just wanted a quiet life. I really dig that Bread and Circuses find, we see how such policies can work wonders for a rulers public perception with chapters such as Dany opening the fighting pits or Rhaenys keeping company with Mummers and such. Awesome work with the Latin.
  15. - “I mean to give the small folk peace and food and justice. If that will not suffice to win their love, let Mushroom make a progress. Or perhaps we might send a dancing bear. Someone once told me that the commons love nothing half so much as dancing bears. You may call a halt to this feast tonight as well. Send the lords home to their own keeps and give the food to the hungry. Full bellies and dancing bears shall be my policy.” - (TWOIAF, Aegon III) At first glimpse this speech seems to be rather at odds with the gloom and anguish said to haunt the Dragonbane, what with it's emphasis on pleasing the small folks and somewhat playful remarks about dancing bears and Mushroom. Could such peculiar wording be simple sarcasm in a "screw the small folk, they're making things difficult" kind of way? The talk about Mushroom making a progress due to the Dragonbane's potential inability to win the smallfolk's affection could be looked at as a petulant remark. The last three sentences seem to be saying "screw the highborn, I'm going to make a difference", yet this "Broken King" has never really been described as a bastion of political/social change so he could merely have been asserting his rule over the various regents who had up until that point played hot potato with his Kingdom. As the monologue marks the end of what was said to be a shaky regency where the young King seemed to be courted by various puppeteers, perhaps Aegon III was simply burnt out before he even began his rule in earnest, his confusing speech a result of the uncertainty that had governed his childhood. Perhaps he didn't have any real idea of what he was going to do as King, his talk of full bellies and dancing bears being all he felt he could really offer to his subjects. On the other hand, maybe this King known as "The Unlucky" was a lot sharper than the history books have given him credit for, his talk of well fed smallfolk a hint at unfulfilled future plans. Aegon III bursting into the room to lay the law down to his regents in itself was a pretty confident move for man often described as anything but, as was he and Viserys being held up in the tower by Marston Waters. George has apparently written a great deal concerning this King, so I wouldn't be surprised if Aegon III's character had some major revelations in future texts. How do you all interpret this speech? It's a mystery to me so I would love to hear your take on things.