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  1. I love the idea of the "whore" in fact being the victim, at least initially. Indeed prostitutes are often the victims. Cersei is the queen of whores per Jaime, and she is raped and savaged by Robert possibly showing us the early stages of the vengeful hoary Night's queen. She needs to go through an icy transformation like other fiery women who emerge from water like Dany at the Womb of the world, the woman in Bran's vision asking for children to avenge her, and Osha at Winterfell in the same pool. Hers may be her rebirth at the ice moon of the sept of Baelor on Visenya's hill. Indeed if a KG knight she had created Robert Strong fights for her it would all come together nicely. Aegon the Unworthy had a consort whose last name was OTHERys. She had his daughter, and moved to Braavos which seems to be the #1 place whores go. She starts a line of black pearls from his king's blood. They aren't like Others but more like entrapping sirens. Braavos seems to be where Tyrion's "whore" also went after being raped to also give birth to his daughter. Tyrion and fat Aegon both share an "appreciation" for women with Robert that gets into rape at times. They make "whores".
  2. Who is what god is pretty complicated. Crows are associated with greenseeing and are the servants of the storm god. But the Grey King is also clearly a greenseer. Of all the folks from the age of heroes, I think the Grey King is the most Azor Ahai like. I would connect him to the Red god. Although like you said, not black and white because he also has a lord of darkness and the dead feel. Storm god has fire, GK steals it, by the end both are fiery. Personally, I think the Others are akin to whatever the storm god is after a transformation of some kind, possibly after having their fire taken away. The Other in the prologue's lazy parry is a lightening bolt strike that turns Waymar's sword into a tree struck by lightening. You shouldn't limit yourself with avoiding myth. You need it to solve some of this stuff.
  3. @ravenous reader There's is a mention is fire bubbles rising of different colors that seems to be where George got Patchface's rising smoky bubbles from. It it also says that dying is akin to being initiated into a mystery cult. Mithras is one inspiration for Jon. I have been looking into others and I think found a lot of references to Cybele, another mystery cult. One of her names is the mother of mountains. I think Viserys's death is another example of the same archetype as Bran dying and entering the net recieving the burning crown like Stannis has. He dies in front of the mother of mountains. She has a consort/priest named Attis. He actually gets castrated under a fir tree like Gargon in the Harrenhall godswood and his soul goes into it. Jon climbs a mountain that is said to be his mother before meeting Ygritte and dropping the falling bran(d). In honor of Sybele, they would cut a fir tree, they thought contained Attis, and bring it to a temple to Cybele. The priests would cut their arms and whirl spilling blood over the tree. I think that is where George gets his whirling fiery dancers we see at Stannis's Lightbringer forging, the dragon hatching, and lots of other important places. Also a Sybel causes the Red Wedding. I am making an essay on it, I think I may finally have enough material to finish.
  4. I completely forgot about that. It's bad when I'm forgetting things from spoiler chapters of unreleased books because it's been years since I read it. Holy shit indeed. I looked into it just enough to make sure that the place with no cast shadows was something recorded and Wikipedia wasn't lying to me. I wish I had gone deeper now. A lot if not all these visions seem to apply to an archetypal person and it is set up so it applies to more than one specific character. So Bran is also a blue eyed king who casts no shadows. I was thinking of this meaning Stannis is like the stormy god of light that punishes the cannibals with the wolf blood curse. But Bran is a wolf blooded cannibal. Does this mean that Bran is destined to be his own judge and executioner in his sacrifice for others like people have been saying all along? It's hard to tell with all the deaths that are only symbolic. Bran's going to his new cave home while everyone thinks he is dead may represent his punishment. Or there may be more.
  5. @ravenous reader, you might like this. By the way I love your new profile pic. Has anyone else read Zeus's Wikipedia page? There are different versions of him everywhere you go. One is Zeus Lykaios. There are different interpretations of what that particular epithet means. One is wolf. I think that is wrong, but George may be using it too. The other is that is means light. If that one is correct then Zeus Lykaios is a stormy god of light. The important part for this thread is that the worshippers of Zeus Lykaios has a place on top of a mountain where they considered sacred and that anyone who entered would cast no shadow. Anyone who entered that area had to be sacrificed to the god. They also had an alter of ashes on that mountain left from the burnt remains of past sacrifices. Stannis is the King if the ashes per one of LmL's essays. He sees himself wearing a burning crown and knows that means his death. Anyway, Stannis is a storm lord who worships a god of light. Casting no shadow comes from that myth. Those are the same people who made an origin of werewolves story that involved cannibalism that should be familiar to anyone who read the Red Wedding chapter. In that story Zeus Lykaios deals out his stormy justice on the people who ate a person. At the end of ADwD we have stormy god of light figure Stannis heading down to dish out his stormy justice on the cannibals at Winterfell who just finished their Frey pies. Look for clues about the origin of the wolf blood in whatever Stannis does to the occupants of Winterfell. Being a werewolf is always a curse in mythology. @Pain killer Jane first brought the story of the Greek origin of werewolves to my attention. Have either of you ever read about the trial of passage they were said to have done? Teenage boys were fed meat, and who ever got the little bit of people meat hidden in it turned into a wolf. Then they had to not eat human meat for a set amount of time until they changed back into a person. Varamyr shows us a failed member. He is a wolf. Then he eats people breaking an abomination rule. Then he fails to become a person when he fails to skinchange Thistle. Then he is doomed to a life as a wolf. Robb also fails for some reason and dies as Grey Wind. Jon will be the success story when he spends time as a wolf and becomes a person again.
  6. Clovis is a type of stone arrowhead and spear point. There is a Stone Age culture named for the style. It is foreshadowing his role as smith who makes the draginglass weapons. I would not rule out a double meaning where it is foreshadowing what you are referring to as well.
  7. Yea it is the sort of thing you need a shower after reading. I have a lot I want to say, but in the name of keeping it short, Cersei is like the lion that Lann sneaks into Casterly Rock that eats the trueborn sons of House Casterly. Tywin-as-Lann gets Robert to marry her thereby sneaking her into the Rock. Jaime-as-Lann takes advantage of that to remove rivals for his bastard to rule. Doubt I am the first to think that, but I have not seen it said.
  8. Hey PKJane, glad to see you back. Your Odyssey "no one" find is great and got me to looking into that cyclops some more. Is this river theory you are speaking of involve the story of the love triangle of Acis, Galatea, and the Cyclops Polyphemus? In that one the cyclops kills the lover of the woman he wants with a boulder only to have him reborn as a river and the spirit of that river by Galatea. Sounds a lot like @Crowfood's Daughter's Grey King being struck down by Garth only to be reborn from her mermaid's kiss. I think that The Grey King's death by storm hammering, which is told to us in the story of Durran Godsgrief, is the first "failed" forging of Lightbringer, one where he serves as Nissa Nissa just like water fills the Nissa Nissa role in first forging in the myth. I am tempted to think you may be coming to similar conclusions through different means which has me feeling optimistic.
  9. Here's the quote Looks like Wenda is a song too like Arya and Jenny. The House is House Cafferen. Robert beats them, then they join him and their lord is killed by Randyl Tarly who sends his head to Aerys. I am going to add huntsman Randyl sending his lord a white hart to the list of things that gives me a strong Snow White vibe. That list is several items long now.
  10. Yep, have you noticed the similarity in the names Craster and Caster? We'll see if I can prove it, but I suspect Lann to be a child that was offered up or was meant to be offered up to "Caster" or "Garth" or whatever you want to call him. Caster's son Corlos was a huntsman who spared the lion cubs, which I think means baby Lann, just how another huntsman Sam spares one of Caster's sons. From Littlefinger we know that people who are spared when young sometimes come back and steal castles. His strategy of stealing the Eryie is exactly what Lann uses to take the Rock, tricks, impregnating the women of the castle, and controlling the heir which is really his son. I am getting to be pretty certain that the Others are like a sun god Garth King after Lann steals their fire to empower his sunlight drinking meteor children turning the solar Garth people into white winter suns. All those white swords at the Eryie you pointed out once show up after Littlefinger usurps it. Is Wenda the white Fawn one of the weirwood women you have coming up? Being a fawn would seem to make her a child of the forest. Arya thinks about becoming an outlaw like her. I want to write about the Kingswood brotherhood, but I can't figure out where she fits in even though she must. Apart from being really funny what does it mean to brand your sign on someone's ass? That's really about all we know about her. I can't figure out her significance. Maybe it is marking someone for death later delivered by Lady Stoneheart?
  11. I am on team sequence, but I am conscious that nearly every example I have to support that could be read another way. To see it, you have to look at character arcs in sequence. I think he last two of Bran's retrograde vision spells it out. Someone is bled out in front of the tree. Then later, a woman comes and prays, presumably to the sacrifice as he is the one in there, for avenging moon meteor children like Arya in some sort of "deal with the devil" as I am sure greenseers do not hand out favors for free. I think Littlefinger's purpose in the story is to guide us along the path of that sacrifice. He gets bled in a fight over a woman on the water stair. Then later Lysa makes a deal with the devil and asks him for help to protect Robert from her husband's attempts to give him to Stannis. He helps her, then later kills her and claims Robert for himself to rule the Vale. Of course there is Robert's Rebellion where a fight over who claims a highborn bastard is preceded by two men fighting over the bastard's mother in shallow water, so there seems to be a sequence to me. I don't think anything I have written yet disagrees with you, either. In fact I think that Howland plays the role of the female when he asks the old gods for help and gets the knight of the laughing tree, before later having to offer his firstborn to the old gods. Offering up a son for help is what the woman does. I think he plays the female role again when he serves as tiebreaker in Arthur and Ned's fight. That would not seem to make sense except that as a crannogman he has CotF symbolism and that is what you say Nissa Nissa. I am on pace to have it done around the time Winds comes out.
  12. I will take a look at the cycle you are talking about, that is not something I am familiar with. What I am looking for are cases in the books where the sacrifice is not the moon for something I am writing. I think there is something to the first two failed forgings that has not been discussed that sheds light on the particular characters involved. I think I have a few, but I could use some more.
  13. Regarding Arya's iron studding clothing possibly being a militant weirwood door, Belwas wears an iron studded vest and has tree trunk arms. When he fight Mereen's champion, whose hair is in the shape of horns, he gives him a blow right between the eyes where his third eye would be. That sounds like another killer, this time a giant eunuch, sending souls of horned people into the net. Arya's saving Jaqen from a burning tree symbol and gaining his services sounds like the Tempest where Ariel the air sprite is saved and his power harnessed by a wizard. That story has a lot of events that seem important, ship wrecks, magic storms, a usurped person using magic to get revenge and reclaim his throne. I think it is heavily used.
  14. I am hoping it is just the extra traffic from the HBO show killing the servers. Something that is related to Arya is the idea of "Mercy". In particular I wonder about the Mother's mercy. Sansa sings this song making the Hound cry at the battle of the blackwater. I cannot prove it, but I get the distinct feeling that the hidden story here is the hound being sacrificed for the mercy of everyone else. Cat prays to the mother to spare the sons about to be in the battle outside Storm's End between Stannis and Renly. She calls out "In the name of the mother" right before the shadow shows up to grant that "mercy" to everyone by killing Renly. I was just posting about the idea of a sacrifice in ASoIaF for everyone else's benefit being something based in part on "Those that walk away from Omelas" which is one of more famous works used to start discussions on morality. I think Renly and the hound are like the child that is kept in horrible conditions for everyone else's benefit. George seems the type to think that a moral person would walk away. He may be working this into his story by having people killed to end a war, such as Cat, come back harder and stronger with a vengeance. If the people you mistreat to create your new world, such as Cat or Dany in the case of King Robert, come back from the dead and hatch dragons it kinda makes your Machiavellian worldview fail pretty hard. On a different note, I liked your catch about Arya getting hit with the wooden sword after being lied to being an example of Nissa Nissa getting stabbed. What do you make of Tyrion being offered Mandon Moore's left hand? Tyrion notes that it is odd, then gets slashed with the right. Seems like the same thing to me with a fool character in place of Nissa Nissa. I am thinking in terms of an Azor Ahai - Nissa Nissa reaction these days more so than people carrying those names. If a fool character, such as the last guy in Bran's retrograde vision, is bled out in front of a heart tree for someone else's benefit, is that person Nissa Nissa? Or Azor Ahai as a sacrificed fool? Maybe both? I think that there was a person who was first the sacrificed Nissa Nissa giving power to another who then played an Azor Ahia role as some sort of Lann-type sun fire thief. Another white sword, Arthur Dayne, is said to be able to kill green men (Loras and his buddies) with his right hand while taking a piss with his left according to Jaime. I consider Tyrion to be a walking, talking offensive act of sex sometimes and thinking of him as a human penis makes sense too. That is one of the things that the comet is after all, the sun's penis. A tricky descendant of sneaky impregnating, sun stealing Lann could have that symbolism. Is Mandon holding Tyrion in his left hand and killing with his right the same as Arthur holding his own "comet" in his left and killing green men with his right? I think it is, but I am not sure what it means yet. Given your find about Arya and Syrio, it looks like a Lighbringer forging with a fool/green man serving as Nissa Nissa to me. I guess Tyrion is the moon momentarily here getting a slash across his face. Before he is playing the meteor death god role coming down from the wall and killing everyone. Like a male version of what Arya is always doing.
  15. Hey @ravenous reader, I was reminded of something I read in school while working on some ASoIaF stuff yesterday I wanted to mention. Are you familiar with "Those who walk away from Omelas"? It is about a utopian city. It is set on the summer solstice during a celebration of the day. It turns out that the perfect society is built on a scapegoat. A child is kept in horrible conditions for unknown reasons, but it is needed so everyone else can live a happy life. Certain people "walk away" when they learn. This brings to mind the beginning of the story set in a really hot summer and the tourney of the hand occurring. Everyone's happiness is built on Dany's suffering. The story is similar to "The Tamir Triad" in which an evil usurping uncle is worried about a prophecy of being overthrown by a warrior queen with a better claim than his. A pair of twins are born, one male and one female. In order to protect the female to fulfill the prophecy, their genders are switch y a wizard and the original male, now female, is killed and given to the evil uncle. The surviving prince who is actually a princess is raised haunted by her dead brother's ghost. She does a bunch of good, but it is all built on the dead brother's unwilling sacrifice. This seems to be a source for Dany and Viserys's relationship. I think in the story I am working on laying out, there is a period of peace after the little brother is killed by a hammer of the waters, he becomes the Grey King before he steals the fire of the gods. Theon and you-know-who from Winds are Grey King figures that suffer horribly. That is a case of someone suffering for a false peace. The Grey King is a sacrificial greenseer impaled on a tree to give power to the king to rule. Aerys's rule was peaceful thanks to Tywin putting up with his cruelty. Likewise when someone like Littlefinger or Tywin rules through a sacrificial bastard like Sweetrobin, Tommen, or Joffery, peace seems possible, but it is all built on the suffering of one. The moral argument people have about the Red Wedding about whether it was ok to kill all those people to end a war is exactly the same discussion teachers use "Those who walk away from Omelas" to begin. Robb stares at Dany with "mute appeal" during her HotU vision. You have written about mute appeal a few times and you probly have a better understanding of what it means than anyone. So, I thought you would be interested in these stories. I think this is the peace that King Robert has. It is built upon the suffering of Dany and Viserys. Also, Davos is written almost exactly like one of Those that walk away. I think that is an important point GRRM is trying to make with his complex morality. If you use an unwilling scapegoat to obtain peace, it will fail eventually. They will get help, in the story from a woman, and the house of cards collapses.