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  1. I knew you would do something impressive with my vague thought. Them being "star-crossed lovers" occurred to me too. AA literally crossed the stars to reach his moon woman. Romeo and Juliet must be in the books somewhere everything else Shakespeare is. But, I really love the Chinese lovers separated by the Milky Way. I am going to take a closer look at that right away. @LmL has compared Dawn to the milky way. Instead of a white sword, Jon uses a white wolf to separate himself from Yggrite. The wall itself seems to be playing the part of the Bifrost from Norse mythology which is thought to also be inspired by the Milky Way as well. Except there seems to be an inversion as one is a bridge and the other a wall. They both have magic to prevent the crossing of certain undesireables. For any of this to make sense the wall has to be what is keeping them apart. The milkwater river is a reference to the Milky Way, but I am not sure how it is being used. . If if I had to guess where they each are I would say that one is in the heart of winter and the other is in Winterfell. Maybe the heart of summer is where one was last time I don't know.
  2. @ravenous reader I really like all the comparisons to a song for Lya. There's something there. I had a thought a few days ago take a look at these quotes. Dany wants night to last forever so she and Daario can be one for eternity. When Dawn comes dreams end. Catelyn is similar. Cat and Dany just want to dream of their loved ones, but Dawn takes that away. Dreaming is done at night. What do you think of the Long Night being two lover's minds together as one? They just want to be together, but the consequences for the living are terrible so they must be kept apart. The Wall blocks skinchanging magic. One mind is north of it trying to get south to reunite with its other half and when it succeeds in reaching its mate LN 2.0 begins.
  3. I hadn't thought of Greysteel, but yea they are ordered to kill Nettles and refuse. We are in the same page though. Jon Snow White is an example of the child that escapes his fate with the huntsman, although it will be as a zombie. He comes into power as LC with the help of Sam the huntsman. Robert during his rebellion is another. Ordered to death, is spared, fights the Tarly huntsman, is spared from being the King in a giant kingspyre by Connington who doesn't light the fire only to be reborn as the demon of the trident after being saved by underworld figure Ned at the battle of the bells. Or something like that.
  4. I only read an intro, but it sounds like the the water sprites are going to bring some revenge to men for enslavement and encroachment on their weirwood. At the risk of stating the obvious, those are the two reasons behind the hammer of the waters and Garin's water attack in the Valyrians.
  5. To put it mildly I agree with the Helen comparison. Expect some overlap. I hope you don't mind if I use a couple of the things we spoke about concerning her. I think the Grey King's role was one of his master's Lord Reaper. Jorah delivers Dany's baby into the tent, Tyrion escorts Jon to the wall and sends people to the wall as Hand. He delivered his sacrifices, but there was something special about one. Maybe it was his child or the child of the woman, or it had the gift, maybe all three. One child made it out. I am only beginning to think in these terms, but that is where I see it headed.
  6. I really like the quote by Asha when she thinks her husband is coming to claim her wayward bride. I forgot about that one. Like you said horns = hammers. Thats Garth coming to drop the hammer on the guy who stole his wayward bride, or something like that. The guy she goes to for help is her fool knight, at least after the kiss maybe before I am not sure how that works. The thing about fool knights are that they are always working for someone else, at least at first. I have another mermaid kiss that is pretty sneaky. I also want to try to guess at the narrative we are being shown. Jorah is Dany's fool knight early on. He saves her in a fight at the the tent while he and the bloodrider mock each other. Then after the moon explosion of Drogo's pyre just when you would expect AA meteor Dany to start acting drowned, she goes to Qarth and sits in a pool. She gets nibbled by fish just like the drowned god. Then after getting out, she learns that Robert is dead. There is talk of another hammer of the waters event Rhaegar's fight against King Bob and Dany says something like "dragons die, but so do dragonslayers". This is telling us that dragonslayer Garth (Robert), as well as the dragon woman and the other man all die when the hammer is dropped, I think. Then she gives her fool knight a kiss as a drowned goddess showing us that she brought him back to life. I think that is the moment that the fool knight ceases to serve his master and is seduced by the mermaid. Sansa seems to do the same to Littlefinger when he gets lost in her blue eyes in the snow castle scene, which is the same point in her character arc. Its where she goes after Joffery's death just like Quarth is where Dany goes after Drogo's. Dontos is her fool knight, but Littlefinger may work as well. He is a fool for certain women. Plus it would be too obvious if she actually kissed an actual drowned fool and brought him back.
  7. Good?!? You know I have never been much good at predictions. My best tinfoil prediction was something relevant to this. The Dothraki are basically Monguls. They are also used as Persians to the Unsullied's Spartans in the world book's recreation of the battle at Thermopylae. The Persians had their ships hit hard by storms three different times in various invasions of Greece. The Monguls tried to invade Japan once, and they got wiped out by a storm too. The Japanese thought the gods sent the storm. When they had the idea to fly their planes into American ships in WW2 they named them kamikaze after their word for divine wind. I felt that if Dany ever sets sail with what are basically a list of all the famous historical invaders who sunk in a storm that they would be in trouble. Maybe a real storm, better if its Mr. I am the storm, best if its both at the same time. The pilots add human sacrifice and flying to the equation. Maybe Euron, who wonders if he can fly, sacrifices someone else to make a divine storm for Dany's invasion fleet to run into. Extra maybe Bran, who already can fly, sacrifices himself to make a divine wind to blow away all the dust from the impending impacts. Anyway, I really like that you have made a good case for an important shipwreck, due to a magic storm, where a dragon person washed up on shore happening in the past. It makes me feel better about that happening again.
  8. That story about Mance including a shadowcat is pretty convincing that the shipwreck is related to the Lion of Night and the flight being due to toxin or whatever the Lion of Night's demons were. Nymeria and the wildlings both were fleeing magical enemies. This is probably something that you are going to cover later, but I wanna speculate about Steffon Baratheon and Cassana Estermont. They were on a mission to find a dragon blooded spouse for someone which is the sort of thing I am trying to understand right now. Steffon is a dragon blooded Garth hybrid, he is drowned, and a reborn fool emerges. The whole story brings to mind Duran Godsgrief and I wonder about that turtle on the Estermont's sigil. The Old Man of the River fought the crab King for dominion of everything under water. That look like one of the "fight in the WWnet" examples. The storm maybe showing us the storm god attacking his rival greenseer, and there is a search of a silver haired mermaid princess invilved. I think their failed dragon princess mission that ends in drowning is a parallel to Quentyn's which ends in burning and is tied up with the tattered prince. I am not convinced at all that the GK was fleeing becoming a sacrifice, but it would tie him further to Moses and to an extent Jonah. I really love the Jonah as Davos stuff because the idea of fleeing your fate as a sacrifice is something I have thought about before, but never connected to either of them. However, Jorah's name may come from Jonah now that I think of it, and he is one of the people I have thought of as fleeing their fate as a sacrifice because I assume he would have been beheaded with Ice under a heart tree. I think the idea of escaping the fate given to you is core to the story of the first Long Night's beginning and end. @LmL has said that he thinks that the Last Hero, or whoever ended the thing, may be atoning for his father. I think that is right, but whether or not it is there is a theme of absolving the sins of the past. Cat thinks she "needs none of your absolution bastard" even though she does because that is what he can do. Tyrion says something about how we are all dancing on the strings of the ones that came before us or something like that. We have spoken before about how I think the hidden story is something similar to the war between the Greek gods and the Titans in that similar to Robert's Rebellion (with Ned=Hades Stannis=Posiedon and Robert/Jon=Zeus, the Greens excuse in the Dance was that their children would be killed, the rebel was going to be killed/burned/sacrificed by the current king). GRRM may be, in his masterful myth blending, conflating Jonah in the belly of the whale with the gods in the belly of Cronus. Like how Zeus escaped his fate of being eaten by being swapped out with a rock in another Jonah-like escaping your fate theme only to start a rebellion. Allow me to spitball even further for a moment. I agree with @ravenous reader in that the core theme of the books is between sacrificing yourself for others and sacrificing others for yourself. I also agree with her that the proposed sinful father and the proposed absolving prodigal bastard son are very difficult to tell apart. The only way I am aware of to try is to look at why people do taboos. Euron, Varamyr, and Ramsay do them for selfish reasons. Bran, Jon, and Davos do them on accident or for good reasons. I think the ice spikes in Bran's coma dream is the sacrificial son escaping his fate. He flies at the last moment and escapes death. Davos does something similar at the battle of the Blackwater. The spears of the Merling King are analagous to the ice spikes in my opinion. Davos escapes drowing just like Bran escapes being impaled on ice spikes by not drowning. They are comparable to the hero that escapes being a sacrifice and obtains power similar to that of the taboo breaking usurper. I think it makes sense to see a tyrant that sacrifices others so he can die and be reborn with power. However, one of the sacrifices (the Last Hero?) escapes that fate like Zeus and starts a rebellion. The Grey King killed Nagga who was a dragon who consumed house sigils of current families. I think that makes the GK more of a rebel against a Rat Cook style, child consuming, Night's King, Craster-ish tyrant.
  9. Hey Gloubie I am working on something about the root story that repeats itself too. I keep waiting to see your thread pop up to read it, but I always miss it I guess. Would you be so kind as to provide a link? Be warned I may steal something, but will of course give you all credit.
  10. There is another aquatic parasite worth noting. Lord Lamprey and House Leech both are parasites of house Hornwood. Those are sea/see parasites infecting a tree. Lampreys, unlike leeches, do not fear salt. They live in fresh and salt water. Some act like salmon and spawn in a river then go out to sea. They are common in coastal areas. I think that makes it fair to say they live in brackish water. This further connects the Manderlys to lampreys because the Manderlys also are tied to river mouths that drain into the sea. This is a stretch I know, but House Bracken poisoned House Blackwood's weirwood tree. The Dothraki who are scared of salt water are a parasitic culture. Even the possibly salt purifying Ironborn who fight the proposed tree parasites are a parasitic culture. @GyantSpyder, By the way, I love this thread. @LmL and his shadowy mushroom (information) dealer have had a monopoly on fungi long enough haha.
  11. Hey @Crowfood's Daughter good to see you starting topics again. Even your short ones have great stuff. The symbolic analysis is enjoyable, challenging, and rewarding. But, on some level I feel like the reason to do it is to find the real events and people behind the first Long Night's drama to whatever extent they wind up existing. Its like a whole other story we have to work for. Thats what I always like best about your topics. You present a very plausible and likely scenario where the BE and the GK are the same person and an event in a shipwreck. A clue to the weirwood boat arriving during the Ragnarok meteor shower ay be the boat similarity to the Naglfar. A ship made of nails and a ship made of future bone are not that far apart. The GK gets a lot of credit for giving the Ironborn what was at the time advanced technology. You move the needle further from simple culture hero to person literally who taught them what made them unique, and also was a cultural hero too. Also, yea I agree that the Drowned God religion is basically like Christianity warped over time to fit in a hard place in a fantasy book where real Christianity never had to fit. Moses' brother, his prophet, was named Aaron. Moses was put in the reeds in the first place because the Pharaoh ordered all the male children drowned due to his fear he would be overthrown by them in a way similar to the kings that locked up women who were afraid of their prophesized children you go over in your previous work. Not sure if the George is making that connection, but he may be. How do you like the GK/BSE as the tattered prince fleeing his fate as a sacrifice? So, if they are the same person does that mean you think the GK was dragon-blooded? Do you think there were greenseers in Asshai? Or are the dragon blooded seers a unique combination of Asshai and Westros blood?
  12. I am certain I have no idea what you are talking about. I am very under control. Its not my fault trolls emerge from under their bridges everytime I type the word Rumpel... nope not gonna say it. I lean toward the retaliation being the hammer, but just barely. Stannis uses a shadow to kill Renly, then Renly comes back to get his revenge much less surgically. However, there was all that blood running over the green when he was killed. I really feel like it has to be both somehow. I just cannot fathom what that means happens in real world events. Why bring up the Doom? I think it is a parallel to the hammer that was caused by a defeated and enslaved "no one" who spent his time underground getting revenge. However, like @Blue Tiger points out, there may be a usurping dragonlord who played a role as well. Maybe that is the solution. Multiple people doing things for multiple reasons which when all happening at once, makes a mess of things and no one gets what they want. Yea, I agree there is no original sin. Every time you think you found one, it turns out that the offender was wronged in some way, even if it is very minor compared to what they did in response. First you think the Lannisters killed Jon and "started it". Then you find out that it was Littlefinger and Lysa, then you realize that LF feels like he was cheated out of his woman in a fight with Brandon and is just acting out what he thinks is the right way to live in this messed up world. That is the fatal flaw in a lot of people in power in the story. They think they need to find "justice". Someone in the past thought the same. Are you saying that you think there were two events? I guess they don't both have to be meteors, do they? I don't think there were, except when I do.
  13. I will probably never start a topic again without talking about the prologue. There is no woman there for them to be fighting over, but that cloak is refered to as his "crowning glory", so I use it as brothers fighting over a crown. Will goes to claim it, the sword really, and gets justice done to him. I see the boomerang in several places. Maekar kills his brother with a blunt weapon, then gets a rock dropped on his head at a place called Starpike (loyalists to Daemon, another one of these brothers who fight over a woman and crowns who Maekar also helped defeat). Which one was the hammer of the waters? Thats what I meant when I said I cannot tell whether is was the winner that did it to win or the loser that did it from the grave as revenge/justice. I mean I guess we are told that there were two hammer events. I don't know how that works, but maybe it is true in some way that will make sense later.
  14. They both show signs of being the winner. I am working on a write up on this, but is is slow going and I am having a hard time writing in such a way that more than the people on this thread, plus a couple more would understand half of it. I think the archetype is two brothers fighting over a woman and a crown. As always there is a possible third brother behind the scenes, and sometimes it seems alittle like the woman is a trickster. Brightflame and Dunk are fighting over a woman, sorta. Maekar and Baelor provide the brothers fighting over a crown, again sorta. Here, one of the losers is Aerion, and Dunk thinks about popping one of his eyes like a grape. That sounds a lot like giving him an Odin makeover similiar to what Bittersteel does to Bloodraven at another one of these scenes, Redgrass Field. There are all those rumors/songs that say Daemon started the war over Daenerys, so it can be thought of as him starting the war over a woman. In that battle we have him getting into a duel and on the side there is a fight between Bittersteel and Bloodraven. They have a running fued themselves over another woman and who should wear the crown. The loser of the fight loses an eye and becomes a greenseer. I said before that I think the loser of the fight may be the one who is your hand reaching up from the land of the dead for the moon, causing the hammer of the waters. I am less sure of which brother it is (winner or loser), but I can sorta connect this to hammers, justice, and people who feel they have a right fo women and/or crowns.
  15. Hey @LmL, A shy maid - Asshai maid - ash tree maid Maekar does something like what Urron Greyiron does. He kills his brother in a trial of 7, an event with 1 winner and 13 losers, and later becomes king. He even makes a new crown with black iron spikes and red gold. Its like a combination of Stannis' fiery (Night King?) crown and Robb's King of Winter one. @sgtpimenta, About the paradox you brought up I am increasingly buying into a multiple person idea like what @Crowfood's Daughter suggested. She makes the case that one angry brother, Garth, used the hammer of the waters as a weapon against the person we know as the Grey King because the GK killed Garth (turning him into the Barrow King who in turn made the GK turn grey due to the curse of the first King). The Grey King may have wanted that and been ready. He seems to have used it pretty well. I think one brother killed another and put him into the WWnet. He was somehow able to use the WWnet like none before him. Maybe he was just the most magical person to ever die in Westros, first dragon blooded or first combination of dragon and greenseeer blood. Maybe he was just the first magic person to enter it that wanted to do something catastrophic. Whatever it was I suspect it was mixed with good old fashioned will to wrap up unfinished business like what animates most troublesome spirits. Dead Garth in the WWnet is the weirwood hand reaching up from the land of the dead for the moon (who I think represents a woman like how Bloodraven has a woman he loved, a brother too and another he hates). He drags it down, makes the faces in the trees like LmL says, and the GK is able to use the WWnet while alive or just undead as opposed to dead-dead. I think that may be the new unholy result, greenseeing while alive for non-children.