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  1. I have thought of that quote as saying that the Others are the under-the-sea equivalent to the NW. They are the watchers who fight for the realm of not-men. I have had an unhealthy aversion to the CotF being the source of the Others for too long. I was fine with them being involved, but, just like Tywin not being Tyrion's biological dad, I think I am changing my mind. I still think it is more than just them however. I like silver seaweed having something to do with the reflective armor. I think merwives = NQ in some way, so they should help them I guess. I really want to figure out the trials. Waymar is found unworthy. I think Viserys is too. Dany at this time is only ok at understanding Dothraki, so maybe it is nothing. Earlier in this chapter she connot understand something Drogo says, but it is a dozen fast words. It almost seems like that was camoflage to hide the fact that Drogo says a killing word which we do not get to know. He is seized by bloodriders which I think is pretty close to Kingsguard and Others. Also, Waymar's cloak is his "crowning" glory. Janos also seems to be. He is taken captive by 7 gold cloaks, the leader of which has a metal hand, reminding of LC Jaime. He is sent to become a crow with 6 others, one of which is drowned on the way. I assume this is all heading to Jon being found worthy. I have seen it said (I know in Red Dragon but I think elsewhere), that being stabbed is like slipping into a warm bath. Jon "only felt the cold". Gared described freezing as slipping into warm milk, and that all sounds like drowning to me. Maybe the unworthy ones are like the dreamers who don't fly in Bran's coma dream and are impaled on th ice spikes. I don't think Jon will be a greenseer when we comes back, but he may become much more Bran's other half or something like that. I also really like the bells as something luring people into the WWnet. I never did figure why there were so many bells at "King's pyre" scenes, Stannis' LB forging, Dragon hatching, Red wedding, Purple wedding, etc... There are a bunch of ringing bells controlling people at Norvos where the people in charge marry ash wood spears.
  2. I'm sorry too, I may have overreacted. If you really are just following this thread to watch crazy people say crazy things maybe some of that is a reasonable misunderstanding of what they mean like it was with mine. You could just ask.
  3. I will say that you seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying. When I say symbolic magic I am referring to something not magic that is supposed to make us think of it as such. Something that is symbolically magic like Varys changing his appearance like FM or knowing everything like greenseer. Do you take me for a wizard?
  4. I agree Dany kills her brother by proxy using the khal, but I do not think Drogo is analogous to a summoned savior who demands a prince price. Viserys' death is the part of the story where the hired individual returns for his prince or princess, but is refused and mocked. This is analagous to Cercei trying to kill Tyrion by proxy using Tywin at the trial and Theon meeting Balon for the first time in the books. The appeal to someone close who doesnt help and the person on trial getting a death sentence that is not quite deserved are both something I see as well. Compare Viserys' death scene to the Norse story where Loki drunkenly mocks all the gods and gets chained up Dany = Odin. Add in the story about the building of the wall in Asgard and imagine the builder coming back like Loki at Ragnarok and claiming what he was promised. Feet stomping was not something I had noticed, but Rumplstilskin (I'm curious how many different ways I have spelled that in the last few days) stomps his feet when he gets cheated out of his promised prince in some versions of the story. We can go into more detail somewhere we don't derail this thread. Orion the constellation looks like a man without a head. People who are too ambitious and make a mistake playing the game of thrones often end up without theirs. Orion was taken as a lover by Eos the goddess of the dawn, sister of the sun and moon. She had a tendancy to turn her lovers immortal but sometimes forgot to give them eternal youth causing them to age forever and regret they had ever thought being with her was a good idea. Orion is also sometimes killed by Artemis aka the Lightbringer for trying to seduce, or maybe rape, her, or maybe it was one of her virgin friends point is he could help himself. Sometimes he is killed by a scorpion sent by Gaia for trying to kill "every creature with hot blood in its veins". He is a pretty good person to base your ambitious meathead who gets in over his head and loses it on. Haven't checked, but doesnt Littlefinger say that hiring a faceless man would cost as much as buying an army and isn't "enough gold to buy an army" how much the Lannisters paid for Brightroar?
  5. At the risk of sounding tinfoily, Tyrion travels with Jon to the wall. I think Tyrion among 100 other things is Rumpelstilskin the imp with magic powers relating to gold and who steals princes after saving women. George is using some sort of sacrificing the firstborn to be a servant for the gods in exchange for their help. The child is transformed through something death-like and castration-like (or actual death and/or castration) into a more powerful servant/soldier. The thought that in order to show this that George is giving us Rumpelstilskin escorting Geralt of Rivia (The white wolf) up north to Kaer Morhen to undergo the trail of the grasses in order to become what he needs to be to protect humans from monsters from other dimensions is more amusing than I have words to descibe. This thread is named after something from Dune, so I think it is very plausible and appropriate. I have seen a few other things that may be alluding to witcherly inspirations behind these transformations. The Burned Men steal people and have them remove a part of their body. We have this little quote connecting them to castration. One of the powers gained from undergoing the trail of the grasses is the ability to use signs. They are magic from hand gestures as opposed to magic from killing words, but the same basic idea. Sign language is a language too even for people who do not know actual sign language. And they can kill as well. This is the extra tinfoily part. Timett may be able to use them. Killing someone with a finger trick sounds an aweful lot like symbolic magic to me. As much as asking for a savior that appears. One of the witcher's sign is Igni, which makes fire just like you would imagine. Benerro created fire with symbolically important hand gestures. Mel seems to have magic in her gestures and using magic to appear beautiful is a standard trick among Witcher sorceresses. I admit I am not unbiased in wanting to connect The Witcher to ASoIaF. That should be said. However, anyone who is familiar with both Geralt and Jon cannot say they are unrelated given that aSoIaF is only a couple years younger.
  6. It was Jojen. I actually just finished a long post on the Killing Word thread about it. It is a theme running through the books. Cersei sacrifices Joffrey for her savior Tyrion without knowing just like Dany sacrifices Rheago without knowing. It is the story of Rumpelstilskin, although I did not mention him and I just realized I should have. Take a look if interested.
  7. I still havn't read a page of that dumb book. Instead today, I read your post at work (on my company phone). A smarter man would try to avoid deserved killing words, but I can't help myself. If companies had you write their literature more poetically maybe this wouldn't happen. Well not directly forced me, but I am not as armored as you may think (or as I want you to think). I am as vulnerable as anyone to becoming the dupe tricked into running my mouth and speaking killing words when best kept closed. I chose to drink, but you led me to the water (or into it by the queen of the merwives). A bard's truth is different from yours. I love it. This statement will be a big deal when we understand it fully. Someone in the past did something world breaking for love. For Tyrion, it is a tool certainly. Sam is legit, or he rather thinks he is a coward but wrongly. When it comes to barbarian cultures, the type of ruler he seems to hold on high are types like Drogo and Quellon Greyjoy. If a normal person were put in charge of those people they would be killed within the hour. For them, the best that can be done is to have a tall, large, fast, generally badass leader of high birth who moves them incrementally toward reason. For cultured cultures yes I think he is admitting that leaders need be deceptive at times. Yes, I think they are. Merwives make me think of Sirens who lull men to their death. In the Odyssey it is sailors who are the victims. Maybe merwives specialized in taking down men sailing the WWnet. The Night's Queen baited a likely greenseer, I think of her as the primary merwife. I will talk about merwives down a little bit because they are related to an amazing observation you made. I agree it does. Also, everything we are writing about now also relates to "I am rubber and you are glue, everthing you say bounces off me and sticks to you". I like to think that child's comeback originated from I know a sixth: – if someone would harm me – by writing runes on a tree root, – the man who wished – I would not come to woe – will meet misfortune, not I. I will let you make up your interpretation. That is the best thing I have read in a long time. Lyanna's "Promise me" has new meaning now. Ned is a Hades figure, he defeats the white, snowy, Kingsguardians of heaven. The Others and KG with their white and grace seem a bit angelic. He climbs into the heaven and collects his due by "cutting the bastard out". As you pointed out on Voice's thread this is what Viserys says when he is angry about not getting the army he was promised. The water goblin and the Erlking are both excellent for this. Jon is Persephone here and accordingly he is killed by a human pomegranite. Ned also collects Theon as ward. He is later castrated. I think that is imporant. One thing that led me to this stuff is the Witcher book series. It is too similiar to ASoIaF to ignore and a few years older. In it there are these things called witchers who are like moster killing superfighters. In order to become one, you have to go through an ordeal that kills most and sterilizes everyone who lives. They keep their numbers up by taking children in exchange for their services. Bran seems to a prince that was promised. Bloodraven collects him to turn him into a greenseer. His fall takes away his reproductive ability, and his falling dream where he sees the bodies of other deamers impaled on icy spikes implies most who go through this process die. Jon is killed so he can come back as something more useful in the fight against the cold. Jorah while performing his child stealing life saving bit at the tent is mocked as a milkman (Other) and then as a "eunuch in armor", which is what I think they are. We see the Others hauling off promised princes of a sort from Craster. Varys is summoned by Aerys, then hauls off baby Aegon, or at least says he did. The Unsullied kill infants to get their spiked hat. Kill the child and let the eunuch be born. Howland asked the gods for help and got the knight of the laughing tree. His price to pay seems to be Jojen. Lyanna here is the mocking savior. Why did she have her child taken? What did she ask for? I think this is all wrapped up in merwives and the Night's Queen. NQ seems to have birthed Others. The pregnant woman that emerges from the pool in front of Winterfell's heart tree wishing for a strong son to avenge her is either an echo of or the actual NQ. In addition to you identifying Osha emerging from the same pool as an Other exiting the "back door" of the tree, I came to that conclusion by going through all the people that seem to be showing us merwives/NQs. Wyman shows us that she was after revenge and is somehow tied to the Rat Cook also of the Nightfort. Plus he seems to be pregnant. Asha while sexually mocking a person of the sea who is also her brother is also symbollically pregnant. She keeps repeating that phrase over and over to drive home its importance. It is noteworthy that NQ and Sansa both have magic blue eyes. There is another woman out for revenge, this time against the Starks. To help point us toward her we get this NK was probably a Stark. Lady Dustin was supposed to marry two. She is bitter still, plus she seems to relate to promised castrated prince Theon. The picture emerging as best I can put it together seems to be that the NQ had a mission of revenge, seduced a greenseer and emboldened him, Lady MacBeth style, to aid in her revenge against the Starks. She birthed children who were killed and turned into Others. There are probably other ways to interpret this, but that is what I see. I messed up here. I did not mean to connect snarks to the next post. I really do not know what they are. Snarks = Starks maybe? Ghost bites the grumpkin. What Tyrion says implies that what he would do to snarks is worse. Most logical thing I can think of is eating, and Ghost eats the present promised prince after he dies in a way. So, things I was going to say before I had to retire for the night. First, the Hound. He got his ear burnt off by his brother and now he is afraid of fire. Gared lost his ear to ice and now he is afraid of that. It at least ties the Hound to ice armored giants who's armor needs melting, Sansa does that easily to the Hound, almost as practice for Littlefinger. Something unrelated, another possible reason for Will's name apart from Shakespeare is that his "will" is what summons the Others. This may have already been said, but I have not seen it. Also, now that I am thinking of things, has it occured to you the master of poetry, that strangled Will and strangled Shae together make William Shakespeare? Edit: I forgot to say that prince stealing Tyrion is all about Rumpelstilskin. He was an imp. The woman in that story is a miller's daughter associating her to Ramsey's mom and Theon's son he kills because the castrated people make more after.
  8. @ravenous reader, I wanted to respond to your response to me on the poetry thread. I am doing it here becasue it goes into a tangent that involves mocking. Its funny to me that you have associated me with self-deprecating. Not because I don't do it, I constantly do. In fact I pulled a nice one at work today after angering the god of the quality dept with a very real mistake. He emerged from his cloud to throw lightening bolts of killing words as he is known to do but... I know a third – if I should need – to fetter any foe; – it blunts the edge – of my enemy’s sword, – neither wiles nor weapons work. I got him talking about some handbook no one knew existed and how it was understandable I hadn't read it. Anyway, I think George also appreciates this tactic's ability to turn foes into fast friends, don't you? You forced me into this rant with a couple comments about it. First you said self-deprecation "melted" you then you referred to same type of thing as a "burn". I think this is exactly what GRRM thinks as well. Brienne has an icy shell of armor of sorts, she is one of the devil's icy moon maidens. Jaime fails to penetrate it despite his best efforts with stabbing words and sexy swordplay thrusts, both of which he is very talented with. However, once humbled who becomes his new best friend? I think it is safe to say his vulerability melted her icy armor. As a giant, it is safe to wonder if she could be a symbolic dragon and she was stolen from Cat. Just saying. To connect it to this thread and the prologue, The Other shows up with his mocking icy voice and reflective armor. It overwhelms the pompous lordling, just like 2-handed Jaime, just like it fails to do to one-handed Jaime. The Other so easily wins the fight that he does it lazily. It reminds me of another icy giant who defeats its foolish northern enemy easily and casually. Littlefinger then gets his armor melted by Sansa in the snow castle. After which he becomes something closer to an ally. The Other in the prologue easily defeats the pompous lording, but when he faces the most self-deprecating person in the story, the self styled craven Sam, the Other and his reflective armor literally melted. Being humble is a bonus in this universe. Jon later dreams of himself in black, icy bastard armor. Other people would benefit from this advice. This is Asha, a thin mermaid, and Theon while she is in the process of humbling him for him. Theon failed to humble and armor himself like a clever fool just like Walder Frey who is fed humble pie by a much fatter mermaid. It is better sacrifice one's self to one's self than to let someone else take you down. Although there is a downside for mermaids who humble. This reminds of Cersei's little brother prophecy squeezing her neck. She is another who needs to be humbled. When she sends a raven to Tywin to ask the gods for help or whatever, she expects him as a true savior. What she gets is Tyrion in all his mocking glory. He mocks with talent and is armored with humility. Anyway, he is the savior she needs and does save the city. However after, he claimes his price from her perspective when she takes her child just like Jorah does to Dany after he saves her at the tent of Joy (obviously the Other in the prologue is another). Mocking and taking souls after doing what they are asked, the summoned saviors seem like a combination of a friendly Aladdin style genie and the sort that takes children and souls after granting wishes. That is basically what a grumkin is and I am looking forward to learning what he does to snarks. I have a follow up that is short and tinfoily for tomorow.
  9. I have not given this thread its deserved attention. It is exactly what I am lagging in the most and very interesting. I am working throught the comments now. The Raven is one of the few poems I would say I am familiar with. I have a spitballing level thought about it. Hodor = Nevermore. Both the Raven and Hodor only say one word and are named after it. If 'everyone knows what' happens in the books then that word will become both haunting and door associated. Plus he carries around a kid who's name means "crow" among 1000 other things.
  10. I agree. The stroke seems to come to the GK in the form of the hammer and the curse of the Barrow King. Garin's hammer of the waters type spell he uses against the Valyrians turns dragon people grey with water and a curse. Obviously all this brother killing is this story's take on the oak and holly kings. The red knight is similiar to what I was saying about Uranus-Saturn-Zeus and Aerys-Robert where the usurper becomes a lot more like the usurpee (new word). I think this is a GRRM addition. There are still brother coming back from the dead and killing each other to change the world, but they change over their life and come back different in complex ways that drive me nuts. Robert defeats the dragon prince, then becomes king and takes on some of Aerys' qualities (ages, grows a beard, becomes ok with child murder, becomes less garth and more grey). Here, to speak @ravenous reader's language, Bob (dupe) and Rheagar(trickster) are the dueling brothers for the prize which is the right to overthrow Aerys which Rhaegar was totally also going to do. If we pretend Rhaegar is an all knowing prophecy nut (which some readers do think) he would have been victorious being reborn as Jon and laying low at the wall while everyone else dies. I have mentioned my love of repurposing good tinfoils and "Rhaegar threw the fight" is one of those. Although Bolt-On is the Holy Grail. Let's pretend that there is a connection between red knights, the Boltons, Royces, and least likely (but not that much) sable cloaks. There is certainly a theme of sable cloaks going from a dead person to his killer and/or brother. The question about them I am wondering given the cloak taking and skinchanging parallels, when you kill someone and take their cloak are you skinchanging the man you killed or are you taking their Nissa Nissa from them. Huzhor Amai wore a cloak made of the skin of a king suggesting the former. However, Varamyr steals his master's Nissa Nissa in the form of the canine he planned on spending his second life in suggesting the latter. I really want the latter to be the case because it fits my current guess at how the first long night started from a love triangle of two men and one woman and a bastard of uncertain birth. Based on the actual evidence there is some in both columns so I must conclude for now that both are true in some way. Ravenous, I was talking about Waymar, but I think Theon is also a sacrificial dragon with his Viserys parallel in the moment he meets his father. The in between stage of that damn dash is interesting.
  11. Mythical evidence supporting Bolt-On is worth its weight in gold imo. I want to tag someone I have barely interacted with. @sweetsunray, I was reading your essays which have apparently resurfaced but are new to me. I am almost throught the comments and have not commented myself yet, but you talked about the Fisher King and Ned in a way that makes a lot of sense. Really all of it makes a lot of sense. If you have not read this OP, I highly recommend it. Someone else, I cannot remember who, has pointed out that Dolorous Edd is like a reincarnation of Ned Stark. I was not aware the Fisher King's wound was known as the dolorous stroke, but that ties it up with a bow for me. Edd appears right after Ned's death and provides advice of sorts to Jon. I think it is further evidence that NW members are resurrected dead. The Tower of Joy is named for Lancelot's castle Joyous Gard. It was previously known as Dolorous Gard, but was renamed after a visit by Authur and Guinevere. The NW had a castle named Snowgate that was renamed Queensgate after a royal visit. Balin and Balan sound a lot like Balon Swann (a Balon I have not seen you use yet). House Swann has a very brother vs. brother, black vs. white sigil, and there is that story you sent me about the goose that lays the golden eggs that was in the tree. Balon Swann is looking to avenge a brother right now. There is a Red Knight that kept hostage a princess of Lyonesse. Lyoness to Lynesse is not a large jump. As I previously tied in House Swann, connecting Lynesse, a swan maiden, is a natural next step. This is another reason I tagged sweetsunray. Lyonesse is sometimes a region that was the sight of a final battle between Arthur and Mordred. It also sometimes sinks below the ocean after the fight. That is a good myth for the fight in the WWnet @LmL is fond of talking about. You did not mention sable cloaks, but I think you suspect they are connected to red armor that goes from person to killer. Ramsey is a bolton that wears a sable cloak. There are several others that wear a sable or sable trimmed cloak from a killed brother or something analogous. Waymar is a Royce and a wearer of a sable cloak. He is killed by a brother according to @ravenous reader (I realize I am tagging everyone, but Bolt-On is that important). I think sable cloaks going from person to person is the source of the "iron price" tradition. It is likely tied to the kinslaying taboo tradition you figured out in the OP. Theon failed to pay the iron price for his gold chain which was melted in a brazier reminding of the "crown" Viserys got (It is thrown in with Theon's paper crown). He is a sacrifice for a dragon just like Waymar is a sacrificial dragon of some kind. I think it is noteworthy that the Royces and Boltons are the 2nd most powerful houses in their regions. They are great symbols for the bastard or younger brother AA usurper. The Royces have not done any usurping yet, but I read something recently that says they may have an opportunity to soon. Red knights causing wounds that result ing disaster and anti-fertility for a region makes him kinda analagous to the grey king. Jaime is a red knight candidate. He caused Ned's and Bran's leg wounds the later of which is related to Bran the Blessed's poison, fatal leg wound. These thoughts are more scattered than they seemed in my head. I'll think about it some more and maybe a more coherent picture will form.
  12. I'm open to the trees creating the children, but I just haven't seen anything that makes me think that is the case. They have two different sexes. I guess I would say they have bought in to the system. I mean if I were a primitive individual and discovered a weirwood tree that contained the souls of my ancestors I would probably build my life around it too. They are at least the children of the trees is that it is the ancestors in there. I would speculate the the the souls of the dead who's faces the FM use breaks apart at death all seem to. Most of it goes to the after life. Only a few shattered memories remain. It is similar to the voice of Haggon whispering to Varamyr. Some of the dead remains, but it is just a whisper. I'm on my phone right now, but Qyburn explains it with his quote about the woman who just left the room but left her smell and an impression on the chair. I think the whispers are mostly a side effect. Maybe it is useful to stay in character. I don't think a more experienced FM could access more because the rest has moved on. Maybe a fresher dead face would have more like how we are told the skinchangers in htheir s second life starts out strong then fades away.
  13. I did, it was really good. Partnership and dominator cultures are definitely a theme the author is working with. You pointed out the civilizations that fill these roles where a partnership becomes a dominator. Recently I have seen people point out that individuals do this too. Garth was pro nature and growing things. His potential son Brandon of the bloody blade fought the partnership culture native westrosi races. Then his son Brandon the Builder worked with the giants and the CotF. Durran Godsgrief and Brandon the Shipwright had children who notably have very different policies than they do on the CotF and ships respectively. I think the Greyjoys are still showing this alternating sequence. Quellon Greyjoy was, I think, more Garth-like. He was tried to integrate the islands into the green lands. Balon took them in the opposite direction and is more Grey King like.
  14. They are definitely soul vessels like the heads Clarence Crabb kept. Those you kill stay with you literally if you have skinchanging/greenseer magic and not just in a symbolic sense like in other literary works. Just read Varamyr's chapter. While I am gushing about GRRM's literary genius, the whole mutual consumption theme involving weirwood trees that consume greenseers while the greenseers themselves consume their knowledge is pulled straight from Moby Dick and that famous white leviathan.
  15. When I first joined the forums I threw out a tinfoil that the Dawn Emperors second-lifed their heir's dragon or pale flamed swords. I think that is the "organic" version of what is now sacrificial blood magic. I think that what the mad Targaryans who want to be reborn as a dragon have a genetic memory of (Dany clearly has genetic memory of how to hatch dragons at the end on AGoT and is under-discussed). They are supposed to be dead already and their souls in weirwood. The weirwood, or maybe black warlock tree wood, is burnt in a pyre and the former king's soul goes into the next king's symbol of authority (like Drogo's soul makes Drogon). The faceless men have knowledge of some sort of literal skinchanging magic that the Boltons and Farwynds used to possess. Also, maybe the wildlings.