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About lAPPYc

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  1. @Curled Finger, you'll have to try very hard to sell to me that Elia was completely okay with being publicly humiliated at the greatest tourney of the time, and would have settled for being the 'discarded' wife, at least in the eyes of westeros, or that she *cringe* encouraged this tryst of her husband and Lyanna. When you say 'How about it?', I will say sure, it will lessen the pain level of the world. But if you ask me if this is probable, I would tell you that it sounds as fantastical as the tower @LynnS has problems with. But since Elia's consent/encouragement/reproaches don't really matter or explain anything that we are missing, I will refrain from writing my objections. And about that tower, what's the problem there? I don't understand. We don't know that Ned and Howland pulled it down with a few horses. Ned would have called men from his main party from Storm's End to pull down the tower and build the graves for his companions. A rotting flower or fruit has a sharper smell than normal. If they hadn't been replaced recently, or there were some old ones fallen below the bed that hadn't yet been cleaned away, the room will smell of them. He doesn't even say that it's a very thick smell. Well, they were waiting outside the room while the Lord of Winterfell met with his dying sister. Why is this a question? Ned, as you yourself point out @LynnS, says that so 'they' had to be the people who had already been at the Tower of Joy before Eddard Stark arrived, plus Howland Reed. If the tower had been empty, it would have only been Howland Reed and Ned would have said that 'he' found him with her. Aerys got mad at the KotLT, but if you are drawing parallels between his being angry at KotLT and at Lyanna, you may remember that he didn't give a fig about the KotLT by the next day. There was about a year for him to forget about Lyanna. Now I am not saying that he wouldn't remembered her when he heard that Lyanna was in the riverlands for her brother's wedding. But unlike in the case of KotLT, about whom, like, nobody cared, people would have warned Aerys not to retaliate against Lyanna. At the Tourney of Harrenhal, when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, someone like Varys, or any other lickspittle on Aerys' side against his son, would have pointed out, like I said in the OP, that Rhaegar had just potentially made enemies of Winterfell and Storm's End. That's a great thing for Aerys. But let's say that a year later, Aerys just had to have his revenge. But if Rhaegar learned of his plans, why didn't he take Lyanna back to her father? But taking her to her father would have made Aerys suspicious as to why suddenly Rhaegar was at Riverrun/with Rickard Stark. So maybe he didn't have to go with her. He could have sent her with added guards, dressed as common guardsmen, but increasing the quantity of her guard so much that the group Aerys had sent on her would be deterred. And with Lyanna, Rhaegar could have sent a letter to her father saying that "Hey, like... I just saved your daughter's life. Keep her in constant watch, my father's got his eyes on her. Maybe if she had a husband he won't touch, she would finally be safe. Maybe a husband like... ME? My wife is completely fine with it, and... fuck the faith, you are of the North anyway. So what do you say?" But maybe he was afraid that if he sent Lyanna back to her father, Rickard might say no, and Lyanna will slip from his fingers forever. So that's why he hid her himself. But that still doesn't tell us why he didn't contact Rickard afterwards. He could have even given him some proof of the King's intentions now, if Aerys was really trying to harm Lyanna. About the pact of Ice and Fire, it was about a royal princess marrying into the Stark's, not about a bride from Winterfell. It was a pact made by a bastard anyway, so maybe that's why Jon Snow was a bastard and died breaking my heart, just like Jace. Poor things, we will never see the likes of them again...
  2. Even though the war is framed (by the characters) as being about Lyanna and Rhaegar? It doesn't make thematic sense for Rhaegar to be whispering any other person's name with his literal last breath. Unless you think GRRM is planning to write a subplot about how some random camp follower became bffs with Rhaegar or something. You didn't think that I was saying the bit about the camp follower seriously, right? It's obvious that Rhaegar whispered Khal Drogo's name, who was winking at him throughout the battle from below the surface of the trident. Okay, that was very bad. I was saying that we don't know that I think that the whispered name could be either of Lyanna or Elia. That said, I wouldn't really mind reading the subplot about the camp follower. Maybe she was Shae's mother.
  3. I would love it if this were true. While I will never wish sickly children on anyone, real or fictional, with Littlefinger, all bets are off.
  4. It was not right away, I stated what I wanted after the entire essay.(And I acknowledged my bias when I spoke about yours). You, on the other hand, want Brandon to make an illogical mistake when there would be another, perfectly possible option, where he just wanted to kill his sister's rapist, an option which doesn't discredit your theory at all. She could have gone riding, hawking, to meet with her lover, any number of things. But according to you, Rickard wanted Rhaegar to not make it public knowledge. That needs communication. That is not true. Runners, couriers, messengers, all these are trained to travel fast between places. In the time of peace and when people were holding weddings, they wouldn't be in much danger either. They could always mask the messages as wedding invitations. They could have tried. All this:- are things that you could ask in hindsight, but at the time when this was actually happening, all these were the questions that they could have at least asked each other. When he was being cooked in his armor, knowing that there was a fued between Rhaegar and Aerys, would Rickard not try to take advantage of it? What was the worst that would happen if Aerys refused the deal? Rickard would die? He was doing that already. There was nothing to lose by asking. Just like there was nothing to lose for Rhaegar by contacting Jon Arryn/Ned Stark and showing him the correspondence between him and Rickard and give his word of support in a war against his father? What was the worst that could have happened? Winterfell and the Eyrie would have refused his offer and raised against the Targaryens? That was already happening. There was the whole of the rebellion to make an alliance against Aerys, the guy who actually killed Rickard Stark. Ned will tell his bannermen that their main target was Aerys, you know, the guy that killed the Lord of Winterfell? I am not saying that he would have told them this, I am saying that Rhaegar had nothing holding him back from writing to Ned, not if him and Lyanna were in love. Er, not a bed full of roses. She was holding some in her hand, and not fresh ("dead and black"). Holding onto something on your deathbed usually works as a literary device to show attachment. So Rhaegar's plan of lessening her pain worked. She found some solace in the flowers! Okay, now I hope your are being sarcastic. Because if you still don't know what I mean, there is something very wrong with my writing(come to thing of it, that would actually explain why nobody likes my fanfic). What I mean is that he wasn't the rapist type, but when Lyanna refused to marry him/carry his child, he and so abducted her and rape her till she became pregnant. This is what I have been saying from the start. All that hints at is that Ser Barristan thought that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. What would you think, after seeing that spectacle at the Tourney of Harrenhal(I already know what you think). In this series where every character is an unreliable narrator, I wouldn't put much faith in their feelings. Varys was sad when he killed Ser Kevan(as much sadness as he could practice at least). "There are many like you, good men in service of bad causes". To Ned, they were just knights that were following their orders. Knowing Ned's honor, of course he will think of them as honorable. I have already conceded that Ned could have believed Lyanna's story of the love story. We are never told that it was Lyanna's name he was whispering. What the vision is: It could very well be his mother's name, or his daughter's name, or of the camp follower he had met last night. Or it could be Elia's name, because he is apologizing for failing in his duty as a husband and was leaving her to the protection of his mad father. There is no reason for us to believe that it was Lyanna's name he was taking.
  5. This might actually be possible. I don't know whether you know this or not, but many think that the whore The Sailor's Wife Arya encounters in Braavos is Tysha and the blonde whore Lanna is her daughter by Tyrion. If it is true, Tyrion's heir will be a major thing in ASoIaF. If Tysha learns that Tyrion has killed his father, the guy who made him give her up, and then if Sansa resurfaces somewhere, Tysha might contact her/go to her, thinking, like Pod did, that she might know where Tyrion is. This is what I am living for, actually. Tyrion and Tysha. Tysha and Tyrion. Oh, and also this:
  6. Sorry for taking so long to reply. When I saw your post, @Ygrain, I knew my answer would be long, and I was just too tired to do that...(The other posts I put up were only copy-pastes of my older posts from wrong forums)... and then the night came... and then I was travelling... I apologize for the times you have to scroll up and try to remember who wrote what and why. A little correction here: Arthur says "Now it begins", to which Ned retorts sadly "Now it ends". Oh dear... Thanks for pointing out the mistake. So maybe the KG meant to protect Jon and spirit him away. Selmy might have been pardoned, but every man's honor is different. As I said, it seemed to me that these three wouldn't bend the knee. They would prefer death rather than that option. But this debate only boils down to difference of opinion with no consequence on whether or not they told Lyanna that Ned was approaching. The Kingsguard is supposed to guard the king, and if they thought that Lyanna might give the babe to Ned(She might have mentioned that to them when they told her that Ned was coming and not Robert), they would have tried to stop Ned from going to her. The same would have been twice true if it was a rape-story, so... it doesn't give us anything on whether or not Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Sorry, @divica, for the mistake. You misunderstand, or perhaps I didn't express myself correctly. The scenario I had in mind is that at some point, Rhaegar contacted Rickard and informed him about his plans with Lyanna. Rickard was perhaps torn between the power that Lyanna as the future king's mistress/second wife offered, but didn't feel comfortable about reneging on the betrothal, either. The solution would be if Rhaegar made off with Lyanna and took all the blame on himself as "kidnapper". Starks don't break their word and it's not their fault that Rhaegar cannot be found. This still doesn't answer why Brandon went to the Red Keep, actually, for surely you agree that Rickard had to send the letters to the tower of Joy, and you said that so Brandon should know where to find Rhaegar. That really is my point. This was an illogical thing, which only means that Brandon didn't know of any plans that his father was making. Of course, Brandon's not knowing his father's plans doesn't contradict any of the points you made above, except for his reasons(ego) to oppose Rhaegar's and Lyanna's wedding. He simply didn't need to know Rickard's plans. It really seems to me that people want to make Brandon stupid/egoistical simply because he got Rickard down in the Red Keep, thereby killing him and precipitating Robert's Rebellion. It, in their eyes, absolves Rhaegar of not foreseeing all this, for who can know what an unstable idiot will do. Brandon was simply calling out to his sister's rapist to come out and die, and none of the points you made above will change if he didn't know about any of his father's alleged plans. The reason I am bringing this up, while at the same time agreeing that it doesn't really matter, is because this sort of unnecessary assumptions to lift the responsibility of mistakes from Rhaegar's shoulder and still keep the love story intact only shows that you cannot see past your faith and biases. How can we have a rational discussion then?(Now I know I have identified myself as Rhaegar Stan, but I think that I have put forth good reasons for at least most of my arguments) Now, on the real issues: The problem is, we don't know at what stage Rhaegar's plans for deposing Aerys were and how he intended to go about it. Bringing an army would mean civil war - would Rhaegar want that? It is not what Rhaegar wants should matter, but what Rickard Stark would do. If Rickard Stark was colluding with Rhaegar in the hiding-abduction story, this would be the point that he sends a message to Rhaegar saying that "Okay, I have had enough of this charade. The heir whose marriage I wanted to protect has been arrested for treason, it is now time to give it up and move on your father." and then to force his hand by bringing down an army. Apparently isolating yourself from the outside world and giving up all control, even communication with your friends like Jon Con in the Red Keep, wasn't careful enough. For it did cost people their heads, and even started a civil war as well, the very thing he was trying to prevent. But let's say that Rhaegar couldn't foresee that, and that he convinced Rickard Stark that he couldn't bring his army/start a civil war with Aerys because the old man was on his way out anyway, and in a peaceful way, then you run into an even bigger problem. For if Rickard knew of Rhaegar's plans to remove Aerys, why then, while being cooked in his own armor, didn't he tell Aerys what Rhaegar had been planning, thereby giving Aerys an excuse to remove Rhaegar from the title of the Crown Prince and name Viserys his heir like he wanted to, and then telling him where he could find Rhaegar? He could have even pledged the forces of Winterfell behind Viserys should Rhaegar try to go against his father's order, thereby increasing his worth, and that of his daughter Lyanna's, in the eyes of the king? After a while though, you have to realize that your messages weren't being delivered, and you had to take a better look at the matter. Robert's Rebellion ranged on for about a year. But what would that accomplish? For Aerys' accusation of treason, such arrangements were irrelevant. Brandon would still be charged with attempting to kill the Crown Prince, and Rickard would still be summoned to answer for him. I meant by the time that the Starks joined the rebellion. Their army only joined with Robert's at the Battle of the Bells. Till then, Robert had smashed Gulltown, raised his banners at Storm's End, fought at Summerhall, was defeated by Randyll Tarly at Ashford, but more importantly, Brandon and Rickard had been dead for half a year(or more). I am sure that Lyanna would have pleaded her lover to aid her brother Ned, one who knew that she didn't love Robert, in unseating Aerys, or at least to send him the correspondence he had with Rickard Stark so he may stay out of this war and not die. I am sure that she would have said that a lot before actually. The only way that Rhaegar's inaction in not even trying to persuade the new lord of Winterfell of an alliance says that he was sure that Lyanna won't tell Ned that this was a sweet love story gone very, very wrong. I really think, and many people seem to disagree with me, that, since Rhaegar wasn't a bad person, and knew that Lyanna liked blue roses, he brought them to her so that they might lessen her pain. Everybody tries to comfort a crying child/person, especially if you don't bear any malice toward them. And blue roses, were the way that Rhaegar tried to comfort Lyanna and make himself feel a little bit less wretched about himself. I don't know if the strategy had the desired effect on either of them. Maybe it finally worked on Lyanna, when she had the baby, she associated the blue roses with him, for the both of them were of Winterfell, and that's why her bed was full of blue roses. (Otherwise it were Rhaegar's orders to whoever was keeping the Tower of Joy to fill her bed full of blue roses every day) All the tidbits that do not support the rape version are just people thinking that Rhaegar wasn't the rapist type. And of course they would think that, because it was true. Ned's thinking, as I explained, could be because he believed Lyanna's tale of a love story. Barristan Selmy says that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, not that she loved him back.(He doesn't even think about the rape, not confirming, nor denying it) But Rhaegar not being a rapist has no bearing upon whether or not he would rape Lyanna, for he did that for the realm. And all the things that you said point to love, I have from the start saw them as hinting at duty. And what are ambitions, your beliefs, your sense of duty, but your first love?
  7. If a dragon is meant to be warged, I think that Bran is the one to do it. He is on the path of being a three eyed raven. So instead he will become the three headed dragon by taking all three dragons into his pack and prove all the seven+ years of discussions wrong.
  8. You don't draw a greatsword over your shoulder? Oh man, I have always imagined them doing that, they used to look spectacular... But you know, everybody agrees that GRRM has great military knowledge. In one of the chapters, the Greatjon is discussing how hard or soft the ground will be at a certain place should they choose to do battle there, and if it will be appropriate for their cavalry. In the TWoW sample chapter of Tyrion, Inkpots complains of how the Yunkaii' wanted the Second Sons, which is basically about 500 horse, to defend one of the catapults: It was in an article discussing this sample chapter that I read the phrase that went something like "GRRM again shows off his knowledge of military tactics". So I don't know... That Jon cannot use his burning sword from the back of a dragon may come to GRRM out of common sense only, as it did to me when I was thinking about it.
  9. When I had realized that I was posting on the wrong forum, @Lost Melnibonean, I was going to repost it here and refer in some way at least to what you had said. Sorry, it completely fled my mind. In the previous post, @Lost Melnibonean had pointed out the following: Daenerys III, Dance 16 The mother of dragons will die, and Jon will ride Balerion come again... Jon II, Game 10
  10. I doubt that Vic needs to steal a dragon. He will take Viserion and go find Dany in the Dothraki Sea and save her from the Dothraki(remember, she can't control Drogon that much). In gratitude, she will marry him - finally a worthy westerosi hubby who will accompany her home(The Grayjoys never really fought in Robert's Rebellion, and when they did, it was like an afterthought that cost them the life of Quellon Grayjoy, Balon's father, so Dany shouldn't have much of a problem with Vic. She will only realize how stupid he is after they are married, and by then it will be too late). And if Aegon/Euron steal a dragon and become the NK, Dany and Vic will assist Jon Snow Kanobi in hunting him down. Then they will rule Westeros wisely (that is to say, with a great tax policy). But anyway, I don't think the dragons will die in the time-span of ASoIaF. Westeros is gonna be so weak by the time the Dawn comes, it will need some fearless weapon to deter some Essosi to come and conquer them all.
  11. and I don't think that these two sentences are compatible. We really aren't given much information about what Lyanna was thinking as Rhaegar took her to the Tower of Joy(consensual taking or otherwise), so it is no safe to assume that she was a girl mature in prophecy. I would like to draw your attention to my other post The lie of a love story. What exactly is a true Stark child?
  12. Where is the dragon binding horn and joramun's horn discussion coming from, @LynnS and @Nezza86? I am confused.
  13. (I mistakenly posted this in the World of Ice and Fire forum. I am reposting it here) In ADWD, Jon has a dream: So we can assume that Jon is going to wield a burning sword. So now imagine our hero soaring high above the battlefield, finally in his rightful place; atop a dragon(assuming that R+L = J). It is the moment of judgment, and Westeros has united behind its rightful king in its last desperate claim to life. In the battle for dawn, Jon's dragon is breathing fire and melting the creatures of Winter to dew wherever it can find them. The sight of their king in the sky is giving his soldiers courage, and they are screaming "For Winterfell" as they kill the Others and seek out their mothers. Jon's blade is burning red hot in his fist, the flames whipping past him as his dragon challenges the winds of winter, and he is cutting down the wights and setting them afire left and... Yeah. You see the problem? This whole charade that introduces the burning swords to us falls upon its face from dragonhigh if Jon ever gets a dragon. That sword is no use to him from the sky unless he can use it as a boomerang. Of course, he could land the dragon, but the dragonriders strap themselves on the saddles of the dragons, so if Jon starts unstrapping himself in the midst of the battle, half the battle will be over by the time he dismounts. And even when he dismounts before the kingdom gets overrun by the ice spiders, an Other simply needs to stand below where he is jumping, its spear upraised, pointy end first so it will get stuck where the sun don't shine. Now I know what you're thinking, Jon will just dive headfirst, holding his awesome, burning sword before him. But that will probably only result in the flames from the swords burning his face off as they whip upwards. But even if this doesn't happen, our guy is no gymnast, and he will need time to get up, and that's a guaranteed death in a battlefield. Worst case scenario being that his dragon itself tramples him to death. And even if all of this doesn't happen, and he dismounts without an ice spider swallowing him midjump, and gets up quickly with some badass moves, regardless the weight of the armor, what was the point of the dragon if he just meant to dismount? What will the dragon do now? Grab a popcorn? A dragon cannot eat popcorn, it is known. The corns will just burst with heat. From the need of the dragonseed mounts in the Dance, we know that riderless dragons are pretty much useless. So... It militarily stupid to give a lightbringer wielding man a dragon.
  14. Then you wouldn't be able to ask this question because the books wouldn't be published for the lack of a story.
  15. This is what ticks me off the most. All those Rgaegar Stans believing that stupid love story. I am a Rhaegar Stan, dammit. Rhaegar was perfect. He was awesome. He was the hero that westeros didn't deserve, but the one it needed. He didn't make mistakes, and by believing that he horribly mistook his chances with Lyanna and ran away with her, all the Rhaegar Stans are insinuating that he did, in fact, make mistakes. That's not how Stanning works. Rhaegar was a political mastermind, as we see by the orchestration of the tourney of Harrenhal. Even if he was moved by the maesters for it, some of their wisdom/tactics would have rubbed of on it. But when D&D show him standing below a heart tree with lyanna, they are doing nothing but calling him stupid. I would never understand why Rhaegar Stans of all people buy into this? Why was it wrong for Rhaegar to force himself upon Lyanna? Rhaegar knew what he was doing was wrong, he knew that rape was bad, and such a thing would cost him, though he probably didn't know how much. He took that chance though, for he saw light at the end of the tunnel, and no matter how long the tunnel was, he dragged himself through it. That is What i mean by a saga of hard choices and their consequences. Rhaegar knew that his actions would draw bad consequences, least of them to his marriage and to his heirs, but he made that hard choice anyway. *Calming down* Glad to know that you no longer place at least that much blame on Lyanna, @Lucius Lovejoy, like you said in the People Vs. Sansa thread. Lyanna was just a girl stuck in the politics of the older generation, much like Sansa.