LucyMormont

It's not the same, the dothraki leaders were willing to rape her, it was self defense. The slavers were disgusting people who crucified children. The Tarlys was a morally worse deed, but it wasn't so clear either, because they objectively betrayed their liege, and also she could have taken that decision as a way of not encouraging others in doing the same, so it could have saved lives in the long term. In short, nothing in her story had necesarily stablished the foundation for this, and the multiple small hints of her "going mad", were tempered by multiple small hints of her being just, and caring for the people, particularly the innocent people. And in just 20 minutes, they "subverted" all this, they turned her into a blood thirsty mass murder psychopath, with no valid political objective and no reason at all. It's as if Truman had thrown the 2 atomic bombs, but after Japon surrendered.

But it's not a solution here; she attacks the fleet, and that's great. She attacks the scorpions, great. She opens a way to her armies in the ground to enter the city, again great. All very acceptable. Then, the city surrendered, and after that she goes inmediately against the common people?? Nope, sorry. Nothing in her previous story was an indication for this.

I've avoided the lastest leaks in benefit of my peace of mind; I've read some comments here that point to them being terrible. I don't thing they can get away with doing this shit season, it were two years of waiting, a big budget for a tv show, and a lot of hype. The show's audience is so huge now, that this won't just fade away. To be fair, I believe that this derailment is not 100% on them, both HBO and GRRM have their fair share. But the arrogance and blindness they exhibit in the interviews, added to their scarce talent, will make them the target of the majority of the backlash.

But back then it was the most logical thing to do, the best thing she could have been done. Tyrion's advice was wrong, she was not thinking in burning the city, but to go against the Red Keep, which was a very acceptable military target. How is that different from what Tyrion did burning Stannis fleet with wild fire? Back then the Red Keep wasn't full of human shields, like it's now. Had she done that, it would have saved countless lives.

I also thought it was better than episode 3. I gave it 3 whole points over episode 3. The reasons for ppl rating it below -I think- are several, and you can see a sample in the comments 1) People who had never made a review before, are signing up and reviewing just out of pure disappointment. 2) The treatment given to Rhaegal and Ghost. Rhaegal survived a fight with an undead dragon and the Night King riding it, to be shot down in that moronic, inconsequential,stupid, incredible way. And Ghost, our beloved Ghost was mistreated the whole season 8, it was worse than not appearing at all. To have Jon "exile" him without a hug, some words of aknowledgement, was unforgivable. Let's face it, it, in a show where all characters have become unlikable in some way, the "pets" shine, and everybody loves them. 3) Some people gave episode 3 a pass, simply because they didn't buy it, they didn't believe that that was all about the Night King. They were expecting that in episode 4 we'll get some great twist, or at least some explanations given by Bran about the whole WW storyline (Prince that was Promised, Children of the Forest, Lord of Light, all that) 4) In episode 3 they ruined Jon and Bran mainly. In episode 4 they also ruined Jaime (making him turn back and reverse his path of redemption, or at least that is how it was perceived him turning back to Kings Landing). Danaerys (who they are clearly putting in a mad queen direction), Sansa (who broke her oath in 2 seconds), and also Arya (who one minute is all about family and the following is leaving and "not planning to return"). Basically, the writing is upsetting all characters' fans. 5) In episode 3, a great % of the fandom wanted and expected to watch a fight between Jon and the NK. They "subverted expectations" by not giving them what they wanted. In episode 4, a greater % of the fandom wanted to watch Arya and Sansa reaction to Jon's identity. They made it happen off screen. All this was just the straw that broke the camel's back, frustration over frustration, it was simply too much for many people.

What we see the first dead breaking through wasn't the walls, but one of the stone sarcophagi that are in the niches, next / behind the the statues. So the dead were some of the Starks, but interestingly, Sansa and Tyrion hid behind the sarcophage in the back of Ned's statue, which is intact, and in the sequence we can see that the ones with statues that had their swords are intact too. So it seems that they kept the lore of the swords preventing the "vengeful" spirits to rise. Or may be it was only accidental? since they've thrown all the important lore down the drain.

Exactly. And what was all that training for, 7 seasons training in warging, greenseing, all that? To sit there as bait?? The whole 3ER purpose was to become a powerful enough magic being as to be able to deal with the NK. This is a world where magic EXISTS, and affects wordly events. Yet, the only "magic" thing we saw him doing was... scout through the ravens? which was of no use, because he didn't say a word to anybody,not to mention that it's doubtful he could have seen anything because the poor ravens had to endure the same blizzard and fog than the dragons. And the complete lack of any sense, story wise, for Bran NOW! He existed to save humankind from extinction, or so we were told. What on earth has the 3ER to do with the petty, mean, small, trivial and despicable political worldy "game"? Or now he is supposed to revert to being just Bran Stark again?

But the point is to have the prophecy fulfilled in an unexpected way, showing why prophecies and visions are a "dangerous thing", as Mel had to learn the hard way. But when you make them impregnate the whole story, only to drop them in the last minute, that's just crappy writing. That's to mock your viewers. They 've thrown through the window the whole Jon's arc, and also Bran's. I don't know what Bran purpose was. I feel cheated. As far as I'm aware, in the show who brought the PtwP prophecies was Mel, not Rhaegar. And her visions in past seasons DID happen, only that not in the way she expected. She saw "a great victory outside Winterfell" in the flames, and that happened, but not when she saw it and not with Stannis. THIS is the way to treat prophecies, not what they've done now.

Gave it a 5. The music was good, Theon's arch ended decently. Jorah died like a champion, fighting for the living and for her queen. And I'm feeling magnanimous today so I gave a couple + points for free. The rest was forgetable, and also trying to get what was happening with the picture so dark was annoying, so I keep all it for the R&R thread.

Have to watch it again before rate it, I couldn't see s**t. So much for the "longest battle in TV history", half the episode just a black screen with shadows moving.

Yes. yes and YES. It's like watching a summary, not a show. Only loose scenes here and there, without depth, without actual meaning. The characters have been butchered till only a shell of them is left; the plot is full of holes and inconsistency, the dialogs are bad, and all important conversations are interrupted. The music is great, and in general the visuals are very good too, but I would never watch a show just for its music and visuals, I'm not interested in big battles, but in the people who fight them. Jon has discovered a life changing information, and we don't have any idea of how he feels, what he thinks! I am one of the completely disillusioned spectators, who only continues to watch the show because I invested in what the characters used to be, I want a conclusion, and I do not think JRRM will ever give us one. I don't blame only the showrunners, I blame HBO too, this is their show, they should have had some quality control in the creative department, and hire more and better writters.

This is the problem. After 2 whole seasons waiting for Ghost, they put him in a so insignificant way that people didn't notice he was there. It felt like he was painted over, as if he was completely added later, when someone in post production said "Oh, wait, we are at episode 2 of 6, and the script didn't have a scene with Ghost yet; fans are gonna be very upset"... so somebody decided to add Ghost in a corner, on a scene that when was filmed he wasn't supposed to be. It was so underwhelming and dissapointing that I'll watch the remaining episodes only because I want to get some closure to this story and I don't think GRRM will ever give us one. Even when I continue lowering my expectations, they manage to disappoint me every time. What I liked: Brienne being knighted by Jaime, Podric singing the Jenny song, Jaime apologizing to Bran. Arya with Gendry felt odd, but it's believable that she didn't want to die a virgin, and it was a surprise, I didn't expect that at all. Overall, a 5 for me.

I gave it a 6. As always, the visuals are very good. The opening scene was as big as it has to be. The music is awesome. Some scenes had the proper emotion. But after so much waiting, I can't avoid to feel disappointed. We are getting to the conclusion of a great story, and things that should be big deal, they made them flat and with no soul, too rushed. Some examples are Jon riding Rhaegal, something that should be epic, they managed to turn it into a meme. The big revelation to Jon, the most important mistery since book one, very badly handled. Danaerys knowing that one of her "kids" is now the puppy of the mad king, no pain, no grieve, no nada. She just goes for a ride with her boyfriend. And no Ghost! That alone, deserves -3 points. So I'm very generous, I only took 1 for that.

May be when Cersei said "In return, the King in the North will extend this truce. He will remain in the North where he belongs. He will not take up arms against the Lannisters. He will not choose sides" he could have answered "As I said, the Great War is the only war that matters... I've already chosen a side, I fight for the Living. It's pointless to make promises about a future that might never come" instead of saying "I cannot serve two queens. I've already pledged myself to the other " Which two queens?? He was being asked to not serve any, not to choose between the two. He didn't need to serve any, he would have sticked to that, and the plot shouldnt have put him in a position of doing otherwise. That's on the writers, they want to create a bunch of new false struggles (as if we need more of those), and we'll have to thank all those upcoming false struggles (Jon-the North, Dany-Jon when they'll discover who he is,Jon-his Stark family, etc ) to that senseless "I'd bend the knee" of episode 6. Yes, I know, I've read people complaining about "boring dialog" in the rate thread of each episode, lol. But those are the fans who don't care about the story, they are just happy with battles and dragons breathing fire. I do not watch this show for that. I enjoy the battles and the dragons too, but what makes it interesting for me are the characters and the story.

Oh, come on. Royal european houses had endogamous marriages all the time in the real world, it was a common practice. It is still a common practice in some societies, and most important, this is a fictional world. Dany and Jon are not siblings, they are not mother and son, and those are the true incestuos relationships. Aunt and nephew have the same consanguinity rate as the real king Louis XIV had with his wife (double first cousins), and nobody thought it was weird. Many centuries before, Abraham and Sara were half-siblings, they had the same father, and nobody thought it was weird. Right and wrong varies over time and cultures. So please, don't try to impose your viewpoint about what's right and wrong to the whole viewership. Or do it if you want, but you should be ready to see that many people don't share your concerns.

Finally a fantastic episode, I enjoyed it very much. The whole scene in the dragon pit was great (I'll set aside Jon's stupidity, finally I've come to accept that the writers hate him, so I don't have any hope left that they'll ever write a whole episode in which Jon does not do a dumb thing). The storyline in Winterfell yay! Very satisfying to see Littlefinger's fall at hands of the Stark pack. I loved the face to face conversations of different characters, where they finally talked to each other and looked like normal people... this is what I missed so much lately, and it brought back the Game of Thrones feel to a show that had turned in a sort of superhero movie with no plot. The best one was Tyrion-Cersei, kudos to Lena's performance, I hate her character and think it should have long gone, but this kind of performance is a gift to the viewer, so thank you!. I also liked Theon -Jon's face to face, and Arya-Sansa's at the end. Glad to see Theon and Jaime finally embracing their redemption arcs, better late than never. The dead Viserion and the fall of the Wall were visually great. Since I enjoyed every minute of it, I could give it a 10, but on second thought, no episode without Ghost deserves a 10. So, I'll give it a 9, and it's my highest this season.

I will buy that only the day I get and actual end from ¨GRRM. The greatness of a storyteller is shown in the greatness of his story, and a good story must have a beginning, a development, and an END.

I gave it a 5, and I think I'm very generous. I'm so pissed off for the nonsensical plot that would easily rate it with 1 or 2, but I don't want to be unfair with the actors who were pretty solid, and the visuals and score that I liked. So +2 for the actors, +1 for the visuals and +1 for the score. The extra +1 is for NO Cersei, I just can't stand her character anymore, she should have been long gone, so an episode without her just gets an extra point.

I agree. We now know what she thinks of this, like we knew what she thinks about other things when she argued with Jon.

I enjoyed very much your exchange of views with @Kingmonkey , so thank you both for it. Given that I was the one who first asked the question about who could qualify this episode with a 1, I think that now it became clearer the reasons why some could have done so, at least for me. A separate subject is the one of objectivity, I truly believe that objectivity in the human sphere is hard to attain, not to say impossible, except in some restricted areas, such as mathematics. In most things, it is a matter of points of view, and what we call "objective" is often nothing more than the result of a consensus, that is, of a set of subjectivities. I never thought we were asked to be objective, just to rate an episode, and each of us can give more or less weight to the differents aspects or categories of the thing we are asked to rate (writing, acting, direction, camara work, sets, costumes, CGI, pace, attention given at details, music, etc). Some might put all the weight in some or even only one of those things and nothing in the others. So, I took it as that a person who rated this with 1, hated all of it (given that there's no zero, and 1 is the min you can give), and "how can anyone hate all of it?" is what I was wondering. Even if the writting was a complete crap, what about the acting? or the music? or the visuals? That is why I asked. and it was an honest question, I wasn't trolling or something like that. Of course I share your view that the many 10 that previous episodes got aren't objective either.

I know there are people who hate the show, but come on, if they hate it so much that they can not even aknowledge the visuals, the production value and at least some of the actors work, what is the point in taking the pain to enter here and rate it? This is just beyond me.

I can't help but wonder who is rating this episode with 1. Really?

Things I liked (not in order): 1) All the sequence in Dragonstone was okey, it carries forward the plot, and develops the relationship between Dany and Jon. 2)Littlefinger trying to ingratiate himself with Brand, and his face when Bran replies with LF's very words to Varys "Chaos is a ladder" was priceless. 3) Arya's expected return home. Something that I expected for sooooo long, that I couldn't avoid my eyes to get wet just by seeing her and Winterfell in the same shot. And in the following shot, the change in her face when she looks her home… I directly burst to tears in a way that I fear my family will mock me for years. I loved the encounter with his siblings. Particularly, I loved to see that despite the pain and losses, Arya Stark is still there. We had watched her failing miserably at being No One, but I wasn't so sure about who or what she had become. Now we are shown that she can be a ruthless killer, but her family is still what matters the most for her. Loved how when she and Sansa first met, she is not so effusive, she does not hug Sansa back ... but after a while and the talk in front of Ned's grave , she is the one who steps forward to hug Sansa. Liked also that when she mets Bran, he at least does put his arms around her, not like the previous episode with Sansa... it makes me hope that despite Bran’s own words, something is still there too, and he has not lost all his humanity. Bran- Meera not my favorite part, but his words "I remember how it felt like to be Brandon Stark, but I remember so much else now" are kind of intriguing, he doesn't say "I see” , but "I remember ", there's a huge difference, so I’m kind of curious about how this will develop. Arya-Brienne, loved it too. It shows what a formidable asset for team Stark Arya has become, and she being now in posession of the Valyrian steel dagger shows that she has a role to play in the upcoming war against WW. This dagger is also kind of intriguing, but this is not the place to discuss it. About the training session, I do not care at all about some criticism from fencers and weapons experts who say that Needle could not ever have endured one of Brienne's sword hits without breaking in pieces. I'm not an expert in swords, so I do not care. In addition, it was well established in season one that a skilled and fast fencer can hold on against a stronger but less fast one. I think Syrio Forel must be proud of Arya. Some people can't just relax and enjoy. 3)Finally, the whole battle secuence ... fantastic! Thrilling and exciting as it should be, all of it. The Dothralki cavalry charge, wow. Danaerys and Drogon, wow. Jaime's brave, courageous charge, lance in high, like a mythical St. George in all his splendor, willing to fall down in a blaze of glory for the slightest possibility of taking Danaerys out of the game with a single hit. Almost as stupid as Jon in the BoB, but visually stunning as well. Loved it! Also loved that Tyrion cares about him. Of course there were flaws, I won't enter in detail here, but some are 1)The odd attitude of the guards with Arya. I know it was supposed to mirror the scene in King’s Landing back in season 1, when Ned was Robert’s Hand. But it felt strange. Circumstances at not the same, we have Winterfell in the way of getting ready to receive and shelter people from all the north, and a girl appears and she gets a "fuck off"? She doesn’t need to be a Stark, just some girl looking for shelter should have been better received. Inconsistent 2) Again, we have to imagine a lot of things to happen off screen, or assume that everyone has teleporting devices now. 3) When Drogon got injured by the scorpion and began to fall down, there's no way Dany could have stood there without falling, unless not without a security rope or something. It looked ridiculous, and those details are floppy. 4) No Ghost, I’m getting tired of them just expecting that we forget about Ghost. But overall, a very enjoyable episode, I liked it very much and I give it a 8.

I hope you are right, @Ser Gareth and this is related only to Sansa for some yet-to-come reason. But sadly, I fear that it's not the case, on the contrary that they tried to highlight and make a point showing us his coldness and detachment, as to make the audience notice that this is not Bran Stark anymore... maybe he is not even human anymore, he is another thing or entity now. Maybe the idea they try to comunicate is that the kind of power he has now is too much for a human to bear. On the other side, if he is an emotionaly autist as you worded it, that means that he does not give a sh*t about anyone, and then I don't know what is the point in having a 3EC. It seems ironic that we got that ridiculous LF monologue about "fighting every battle, everywhere, always in your mind", at the time we have a guy arriving who can, literally, do that . This of course is personal, I know many fans would think otherwise. From day one (and day one was many years ago, when I started my long lasting love-hate relationship with the books) I'm all team Stark, and the remaining Starks are all broken and twisted now. Unfortunately, this episode and Bran's attitude makes me think that the damage is irreparable, and gives me an idea of what kind of bittersweet ending we migh get, and it's one all-bitter-nothing-sweet for me. Even if some or all of them get to the end alive, the things yet to come won't help to fix them a bit. Anyway, I have to remind myself that this is just entertainment, perhaps I emotionally invested too much in some fictional characters.

I do not know how to rate this episode. I'll think about it a bit more. Some things I liked very much, but the things I didn't like, I really totally hated them. Years awaiting Bran's return, and it was dreadful ... is it that being the 3-eyed crow took away all traces of humanity from him? He showed less feelings than the WW, I hated all that, he looked more a zombie than the zombies beyond the wall. They are ruining his character completely. And as the cherry on top of the cake, they make him say to Sansa practically "Sorry... you look great the night you got raped", Really?? And I can not stomach Jaime stupidity and blindness about Cercei anymore, it's pathetic what they are doing with his character.