Megorova

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  1. The order points out whether each vision is from the past or from the future. 1. Out of 30 visions/predictions that Dany saw/heard in THOU, 24 already happened. Some of them at that point of time were from Dany's past (such as house with red door), or past of other characters (Rhaegra's death, naming of little Aegon), but many at that point still didn't happened. Random order (those that didn't happened yet - text in bold): War of Five Kings Red Wedding Stannis and his magic sword Rhaegar's death Viserys' death Grown up Rhaego Dead man on a ship Dany in Vaes Dothrak Visison with Willem Darry in house with red door Blue flower on The Wall <- could this be NOT Jon? I don't think so. Mad King ordering to burn King's Landing Elia and Rhaegar naming Aegon Mummers dragon A beast from smoking tower <- this is the only one that I don't know what it is, the clue is that it happened either prior Melisandre giving red swords to Stannis, or after Stannis defeated Mance. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love 2. There's no evidence that Rhaego died. In the book, aside from Mirri saying to Dany that her child is dead, no one else, besides her saw him. Mirri said that Rhaego is dead, she also said that Dany won't bear any more children. When one of this things will be proven to be a lie, and Dany will become pregnant, will you consider then, a possibility that Rhaego is alive? 3. "Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name" Dying prince + rubies from his chest + water = who else if not Rhaegar? Also this vision is not from the future, it's from the past (based on two other trinitys of visions, a vision with dying prince is from the past).
  2. Based on Jaime's behavior, witnessed by Ned, it doesn't looks like Jaime was unaware of what was going on in King's Landing. Also it looks as if though Jaime weren't afraid of Robert's soldiers. Probably because Robert was in cohorts with Tywin, and they agreed that Jaime will kill Aerys, and Robert's soldiers will be warned that they shouldn't harm Jaime Lannister. AGOT, Eddard II:
  3. It's possible that Jon will have psychological trauma after that experience, whether he will really die, or even if he will survive somehow. But going mad is a bit exaggerated. Based on Jon's previous experiences of physically and psychologically damaging events, I don't think that he is prone to Targaryen madness. He didn't became insane after hearing news that Ned is dead, Robb is dead, Bran and Rickon are dead, and Arya probably also dead; Winterfell got burned; Lord Commander Mormont got killed; uncle Benjet disappeared; Ygritte was killed, and Jon even had to bury her himself; he had to kill Halfhand, to deceive wildlings that he is a turncloak, and later to convince Black Brothers not to execute him, for everything he had to do alongside wildlings; had to go on false negotiations with Mance, which was actually supposed to be an assassination attempt, and was one-way ticket for Jon, etc. Add to that physical aspects of his experiences during great ranging and until his death - hunger, cold, pain, wounds, no time to rest, constant danger, exhaustion and constant problems, etc. And after all of it, he not only didn't became mentally unstable, on the contrary - he was able to think clearly, and he made very wise decisions (marrying Alys Karstark with Magnar of Thenn; borrowing money from Iron Bank; letting wildlings to cross on this side, and not to become soldiers in Undead Army; taking from wildlings their valuables, to buy food to sustain Night's Watch thru winter), and he was ready to go and fight in a gruesome battle agains Boltons. He lived thru all of those hard experiences and didn't get mad, so it's unlikely that one small death can seriously damage his mind. In that vision there was wolf, flaming man, but there were also other shadows - those that looked human. Wolf - Old Gods, flaming man - R'hllor, and others could be Seven Gods (or Mother, and the Great Shepherd). That's if Mirri's ritual summoned to her deities to cure Drogo. Or maybe the ritual that she performed had totally different purpose. Also could be that the wolf was Jon, and the flaming man was Rhaego - two heads of the dragon in addition to Dany.
  4. 12 that already happened (in random order): War of Five Kings Red Wedding Stannis and his magic sword Rhaegar's death Viserys' death Dany in Vaes Dothrak Blue flower on The Wall <- could this be NOT Jon, I don't think so. House with red door Mad King ordering to burn King's Landing Elia and Rhaegar naming Aegon Mummers dragon A beast from smoking tower <- this is the only one that I don't know what it is. And aside from visions there were also prophecies told by Undying. Out of 9 of them, at least 5 already happened: Fire for life is Drogo's funeral pyre, on which Dany burned Drogo, Mirri and horse, and this gave life to three of her dragons. One to bed is Daario, one to dread is Dany's second husband. Treason for blood is Mirri's betrayal. Second, that is for gold, is Jorah's. Other things that she saw near the end of her visit: Aside from dragon bursting out of Mirri's brow, all the rest did happened, it was mostly visions of Dany's past, and only one with slaves was from the future (also already happened). So out of 32 things that in THOU Dany either saw or heard, 2 were fake, 24 already happened, and there's still 2 more visions and 4 more prophecies. Out of 26 that are already in the past, only 2 were fake visions, but those were not even a visions/predictions/or memories, those two were illusions to lure her into wrong door. Out of 24 things that already happened, 21 (aside from beautiful woman with four little man, a beast from smoking tower, and blue flower on The Wall) are direct, clear, and obvious things, that can't be interpreted ambiguously. But even those three things has not that many options how they can be interpreted. If not Jon, then what else can be blue flower on the wall of ice? And about beautiful woman - in ASOIAF world ships, cities, countries, etc. are referred to as "she". So most likely that woman is 7K, and four little man are Joffrey, Stannis, Renly and Greyjoy. And a beast from smoking tower - given that this event happened before Stannis vision, which probably was either when he was still at Dragonstone, or when he defeated Mance at The Wall, I think other readers can gues what it could be. I'm not getting what it could be, just because out of first books, I haven't read for years chapters with POV that are not Jon, Dany, Bran, Arya or Tyrion. So I just don't remember what that could be. But probably it's something obvious.
  5. There was only one vision with what didn't happened, and one with what won't happened, and this is it: All the rest did happened. So far out of 14 visions from the House of Undying, 12 already happened, and there's 2 more left - about dead man on a ship, and Rhaego. At that point when Dany visited THOU, Robb was still alive (but she saw Red Wedding), Varys didn't revealed yet existance of Young Griff (but Dany saw mummers dragon). Now out of 4 visions of a future 2 already happened. Also at that point in time Dany didn't knew (probably she never knew about this) that Stannis had glowing sword and blue eyes, or that in The North there are blue flowers with fragrant smell. What lies did they told her? What out of her visions were false (aside from fake Pyat Pree and fake Undying in a room prior last room with real Undying?)
  6. I was writing a post in another thread, and suddenly deciphered GRRM's code for those visions in House of Undying, they should be placed in a slightly different order, and then they will be chronological. First of all this is Rhaego's description from Dany's dream, after she gave birth to her baby, AGOT, Dany IX: And this is her vision from House of Undying, ACOK, Dany IV: I had a theory that Rhaego's mission is to unite both religions - followers of R'hllor and followers of Stallion. His birth was predicted by both - dosh khaleen in Vaes Dothrak, and Red Priests in Asshai. According to those prophecies he is the Prince that was promised, and the Stallion that will mount the world. Thus fiery stallion is a sigil that combines fire of R'hllor and stallion deity of Dothraki. Add together this lord's banner with fiery stallion, his tall height, skin and hair color, and it's obvious that the person in both of Dany's visions is the same person - Dany's son Rhaego. Even if the Undying were lying (but by the end of my post, with all quotes of that visions, you'll see that they didn't lied), first of visions with Rhaego Dany had many months prior arriving to Qarth, so that vision had NOTHING to do with Undying, nevertheless she saw in that vision the same person as in her vision, that she had later in the House of Undying. Next - based on sequence of Dany's vision in House of Undying, that vision with lord beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, is a vision of a future. Dany sees three visions, and then again three more visions, and after that three more. ACOK, Dany IV: Based on this sequences - first visions depicts recent events: 1.1. death of Viserys, 2.1. Stannis with his magic sword (either at Dragonstone, when Melisandre gave it to him, or after victory over Mance, at The Wall), 3.1. Dany in Vaes Dothrak (going to bath after eating stallion's heart, or maybe it's a vision from her wedding night); second vision is from the future: 1.2. grown up Rhaego, 2.2. Mummers Dragon (fAegon), 3.2. dead man on a ship (someone connected to Jon and Dany); third vision is from the past: 1.3. Rhaegar's death, 2.3. (don't know what could be this one, but based on two others, this one also should be from the past, the only clue is that it happened before Melisandre gave red sword to Stannis, or before Stannis defeated Mance), 3.3. Blue flower on The Wall (either Jon becoming Lord Commander, or arriving to The Wall.) Thus chronological order of those visions - third, first, second. And if those events are placed in correct order, then there is seen a pattern in them: - Rhaegar's death, Viserys' death, future of Rhaego - Targaryens or dragonblood; - a beast from smoking tower, red sword of Stannis, Mummers dragon - false things or fakes; - blue flower on The Wall (probably Jon Snow), Dany in Dothraki Sea, dead man on a ship - ? So we have Jon and Dany, and some unknown man. Probably it's not Theon, or one of Ironborn, probably this man is somehow connected to either love, or a prophecy about three dragon heads. Three visions from first two sequences had obvious connection between them - dragon blood in first, and a lie in the second. So there must be something like that, that connects together Jon/blue flower, Dany, and this third man. So near the end of her visit to Undying, Dany saw 9 visions, and 7 of them already happened. Visions that she saw prior that, also followed the same pattern: 1. recent event, 2. future, 3. more distant past: Though next visions had a different pattern - past and more distant past, and there was no third vision (unless Rhaegar saying that the dragon has three heads is a vision of a future, and a sad song in the end will be Prince's song of Ice and Fire):
  7. Dany's vision in the House of Undying probably proves my theory, that Rhaego will unite both religions, ACOK, Dany IV: She saw grown up Rhaego in her vision, after Rhaego's birth, AGOT, Dany IX: Tall, with copper skin and silver-gold hair, proud = lord. So the lord from the vision in House of Undying is also a Rhaego. Because are there a lot of people in ASOIAF, that have copper skin and silver-gold hair, and whose banner could be FIERY STALLION? Fiery Stallion from Rhaego's banner is a combination of symbols from both religions - followers of R'hllor (fire) and Dothraki's religion (stallion). Seems that fiery stallion will be Rhaego's sigil, and symbol of new religion. And maybe he will be like christian crusaders, that went to other countries and fought there, supposedly to enlighten barbarians and bring them faith, but their real intentions were to seize control over those people and places. Crusaders were warriors, not peacefull preachers. Thus - the burning city in Dany's vision, where Rhaego is with banner that symbolizes his faith, is a place of Rhaego's crusade. So in span of two books Dany had two visions of grown up Rhaego. Also based on sequence of Dany's vision in House of Undying, that vision with lord beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, is a vision of a future. Dany sees three visions, and then again three more visions, and after that three more. ACOK, Dany IV: Based on this sequences - first visions depicts recent events: 1.1. death of Viserys, 2.1. demonstration by Stannis of his magic sword at Dragonstone, 3.1. Dany in Vaes Dothrak going to bath after eating stallion's heart (or maybe it's a vision from her wedding night); second vision is from the future: 1.2. grown up Rhaego, 2.2. Mummers Dragon, 3.2. dead Ironborn, who is probably Theon; third vision is from the past: 1.3. Rhaegar's death, 2.3. (don't know what could be this one, but based on two others, this one also should be from the past, the only clue is that it happened before Melisandre gave red sword to Stannis), 3.3. Blue flower on The Wall (either Jon becoming Lord Commander, or arriving to The Wall.) Thus chronological order of those visions - third, first, second. And if those events are placed in correct order, then there is seen a pattern in them: - Rhaegar's death, Viserys' death, future of Rhaego - Targaryens; - a beast from smoking tower, red sword of Stannis, Mummers dragon - false things or fakes; - blue flower on The Wall (probably Jon Snow), Dany in Dothraki Sea, dead man on a ship - ? So we have Jon and Dany, and some unknown man. Probably it's not Theon, or one of Ironborn, probably this man is somehow connected to either love, or a prophecy about three dragon heads. Three visions from first two sequences had obvious connection between them - dragon blood in first, and a lie in the second. So there must be something like that, that connects together Jon/blue flower, Dany, and this third man. Also could be that the scene with red sword is not from Dragonstone, when Melisandre just gave that sword to Stannis, that scene could be from The Wall, when Stannis defeated Mance. So the beast and smoking tower could be burning of Winterfell, death of Tywin and burning of Hand's Tower, burning of Summerhall, maybe burning of Tower of Joy, etc.
  8. I think that Tywin Lannister was planning to betray Aerys from the very beginning of Robert's Rebellion. And thus Jaime killed Aerys not because Aerys was planning to burn King's Landing, he killed him, because Jaime agreed with Tywin to do it, long before it actually happened. All it was planned. Tywin and Robert also agreed that prior Robert's army will get to King's Landing, Robert will inform Tywin that they are departing, from wherever they were, to go to King's Landing. And thus Tywin was supposed to go to KL, and get there shortly prior arrival of Robert's soldiers. It was supposed to look like Tywin arrived to help Aerys. But actually he was going to sack the city, kill Elia and her children, and Jaime was supposed to kill Aerys. Robert and Tywin agreed that Lannisters will do all the dirty job, and as a payment for it, Robert will marry with Tywin's daughter, and made Cersei Queen of 7K, and Jaime will be allowed to stay in Kingsguard of new King of 7K, Robert Baratheon. At those times oaths of Kingsguards were irrevocable, so even if the King will change, Jaime still won't return to be Tywin's heir. But if Robert will marry with Cersei, then one day Tywin's grandson will become King of 7K. Probably Jaime and Cersei also agreed beforehand, that when she will marry with Robert, she won't give birth to his children. If she will become pregnant from him, she will drink moon tea (we know that this did happened, Cersei aborted Robert's child at least once). If Jaime will stay as Kingsguard in King's Landing, then he and Cersei will be always together. And thus they will also have an opportunity to f*ck behind Robert's back, and one day fruit of their incestuous relationship will sit on Iron Throne. Thus Jaime killed Aerys to assure that one day his own son will become King of 7K.
  9. You're right, he didn't told her that he will go to Oldtown. But you're also wrong, he didn't told her that he will go to Braavos, or to Essos, or across the Narrow Sea - The meaning of what he said, is that if she wants to learn his skills, she will have to go with him across the Narrow Sea. Though it didn't meant, that he was planning to go there NOW. At that moment he changed his face to face of alchemist. ACOK, Arya 9: AFFC, Prologue: Faceless Men are rich, but even they wouldn't waste money on going back and forth between Westeros and Essos several times per year. Why would he go across the Narrow Sea, just to go back across it to Oldtown? He didn't just swinged though Old Town - he killed Pate in Prologue of AFFC, and from then on, and until Sam's arrival to Citadel, he was impersonating Pate for entire length of that book.
  10. A vision of Red Wedding that she saw was real. Other visions: The woman is 7K, and four little men are Joffrey, Stannis, Renly, and Greyjoy. It was War of Five Kings, but unlike four others, Robb didn't wanted to become King or ruler of 7K, and "rape" and rip apart 7K, for him this war was revenge to Lannisters for his father's death. <- Final moments of Mad King Aerys, when he ordered to burn KL with wildfire, and "him" to whom Aerys was referring was Robert Baratheon. Rhaegar indeed had indigo colored eyes. It's unlikely that Viserys ever told his sister what was eye color of their dead brother. Next what the Undying said: Daario Naharis, Hizdahr zo Loraq, Jon Snow. Mirri Maz Duur, Jorah Mormont. Daario Naharis? Or maybe Jon Snow? Another vision: Rhaego? Stannis, or Jon Snow after his revival (if he will be a wight, his eyes could become blue). Young Griff / fAegon - mummers dragon. I have no idea about this one Tyrion Lannister? Dany in Asshai? Theon. Jon Snow, Lord Commander of Night's Watch, at The Wall. Visions from the past. Scene from Drogo's tent. Dany's memories about her childhood in Braavos. Etc. Another vision of the future - scene from Yunkai. Thus what Dany saw then, whether visions of the past, or predictions from the future, all of it was real. Thus Rhaegar really said woman's name when he was dying. It wasn't just a vision, it was real like all the rest of what Dany saw then.
  11. Don't know whether someone prior me in this thread already wrote it, but in case if no one did - in Dany's vision in House of Undying: ACOK, Dany 4 "Arthur" is not a woman's name. Rhaegar's last word was name of his most loved person, and that person was a female. If Rhaegar was gay, and in love with Arthur or Jon Con, wouldn't he have said male's name?
  12. It takes at least a month to travel from Westeros to Essos (from Oldtown to Braavos). He said to Arya that he's going to Oldtown, thus if he sailed to Braavos, he did it after getting to Oldtown. If he was already in Oldtown, what was the point of going back to Braavos, getting there another assigment, just to return all the way back to Oldtown? Or maybe there was two Faceless Men in Westeros, at the same time. And they met in Oldtown, exchanged information (and faces), and one of them stayed in Oldtown, gathering more information, while the other one returned to Braavos, where he met Arya again, or for the first time (if he was the other one). Apprentices of Citadel can't just leave from Oldtown and go wherever they want. Thus starting from Prologue of AFFC and until its last chapter, the FM that killed Pate, was at Citadel all that time, impersonating Pate. Seems that Arya's chapters are happening at about the same time, so the "kind man" in House of Black and White, that was training Arya, is not fake-Pate from Citadel. Now the question is - which one of them was with Arya in Riverlands, and where is that FM now - is he a fake-Pate, or is he a "kind man"? Either way if that Faceless Man, that was with Arya in Riverlands, had no mission in Oldtown, there was no point for him to go there. There are other ports in Westeros, from which ships sail to Essos. So if he just needed to return to Braavos, it wasn't necessary to go specifically to Oldtown. Thus he went there because his destiantion and target was Oldtown, and what was there - Citadel, not some random port that will help him get back to Braavos.
  13. There's evidence in the books that prove, that that Faceless Man, that was imprisoned in Black Cells had another mission. After leaving Arya in Riverlands, he went to Oldtown. There he was impersonating alchemist, killed Pate (with poisoned coin), took his face and impersonated him. AFFC, Prologue: He poisoned Pate, same way it was done by Arya in ADWD (how she poisoned Thin Man). AFFC, last chapter: So first he goes to KL, then to Oldtown, and he stayed at Citadel, impersonating Pate, from Prologue chapter and until the last chapter of AFFC. And that's at least a few months. So if his mission was to kill Ned, then he would have returned back to Braavos, after Ned's death. But he stayed at Citadel, and even killed an apprentice from Citadel, and prior that bought from him a key, that opens all doors at Citadel. And he's still impersonating that apprentice, and living at Citadel. Thus his target wasn't Ned, the reason for his arrival to Westeros is something different. Black Cells were connected thru secret passage with the Tower of Hand (probably he was looking there for something), and now that man is staying at Citadel. So most likely his mission is gathering information.
  14. Bloodraven is he only human ever jacked in, the first and the last. There were also other humans. A Dance with Dragons - Bran II So aside from Bloodraven, prior him there was at least 6 more other people. He was the last, they did called him that in chapter Bran III But he wasn't first human greenseer, he was at least seventh.
  15. What evidence? You wrote (are this reasons stated above?) I didn't said that Lannisters were indebted to IT, or to IB. IT was indebted to both - Lannisters and IB. Tywin didn't borrowed money from Iron Bank. This decision (to take money from them, from IB) was made by Littlefinger. Tywin didn't owned any money to IB. Conversation with Cersei was long time after that time, when IB sent their spy to investigate situation with finances of IT. First, when the Hand's position was changing between Jon to Ned, people of IB has sent their spy to KL. Then they had time to use slow method of gathering intel. But after Tywin's death situation was more dire, thus they went directly to Cersei. Yes, that was IT's debts. But Robert and Joffrey had no money. Robert was Lord of Stormlands, but after Rebellion he became King of 7K. And then he left all his money, and lands, and other possessions, to Renly, who became new Lord of Stormlands. And Robert got money, wealth and resources of IT, that previously belonged to Targaryens. For many years Robert was spending/waisting Crown's money, and what income was acquired by IT, was seized by Varys, by Littlefinger, and by Tywin. Thus eventually Targaryens' money run out. And Robert with Joffrey had no more money. I'm not saying that they were bankrupt, but they didn't had significant enough amount of money, to pay back their debts to IB. And thus they were borrowing money from Tywin. And Tywin was willingly giving money to them, because Robert was his son-in-law, and Joffrey was his granson. So even though formally those were not Lannisters' debts, practically they were indeed theirs.