Megorova

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About Megorova

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  1. Yes, black sheeps are those who are different, or don't belong with others. Same as white crows. Though in world of Planetos, white crows don't have that kind of meaning - outcasts - they just symbolise winter. Though what kind of connection is between Jon and crows under the sea? What is the meaning of this phrase? There really could be many meanings. Though I think that it's something about death. For example crows under the sea, are drowned birds. So is it a reference to something out of ironborns culture? - something like what they say "What is dead may never die" <- Patchface has forseen that Jon will be killed, and then resurected, so he will become immortal, or something like that. Or white crows under water could be dead Brothers of NW turned into wights. Or if what he said is only about Jon, then I don't understand why he is saying crows, multiple instead of one. And also what's the meaning of crows white as Jon Snow? Doesn't make sense. Or maybe it means that the wildlings will become watchers on The Wall. Previously they were outcasts, those that don't belong, but soon will become Brothers of NW. Thus - white crows.
  2. That's exactly what his purpose is. The main war in ASOIAF is a war against Others. But until that war will begin, characters from lower part of Westeros, has to be doing something. So while main story is slowly unraveling at The Wall, Dany is kept busy in Meereen; and Lannisters will be occupied with invasion by fake Aegon and his people, and uprising of Sparrows; and other inhabitants of Westeros will be dealing with confrontation between Stannis and Boltons, raids by Euron and his pirates, etc. And when all those secondary plot lines will finally end, the Others will be knocking at the gates of Castle Black. So whoever will win political Games of Thrones, will fight alongside Jon against the Others. Yes, Edward IV. Fixed that. Thanks.
  3. Could be that Aerys didn't disinherited Rhaegar's children. After re-reading info about Great Council, I think that maybe Rhaegar's children were overstepped because Rhaenys was a girl, and two others were too little. Which doesn't mean that they were permanently removed from succession line. There were precedents in history when after king's death, instead of his son, as next king was crowned younger brother of a previous king (prince's uncle). Though after death of this king (uncle), even though he had his own kids, including boys, after him was crowned his nephew, son of first king. Or another example when instead of first prince, who was an infant at time when previous king died, was crowned his cousin. And after that cousin's death, crown went back to first prince. I don't remember who exactly those historical figures were, though I think that uncle and nephew from first example were from Britain, and cousins from second example were kings from France or Spain. So after Viserys' death next in line is Aegon Martell, and after him Jon. Though I'm sure that either Aegon is fake, or he will die in next book, and unlike Jon, he won't be resurected. There's no need to have two princes in the story. And considering that Young Griff appeared only recently, while Jon was one of main characters sinse first book, it would be a huge waste, if Aegon will live while Jon will die and stay dead. P.S. King Henry IV, then his younger brother King Richard III, and after him his nephew King Henry VII (son of Henry IV). Edit: Edward IV - Richard III - Henry VII Henry VII was son of Edward IV, not Henry IV. King Henry I, then his nephew Stephen of Blois, then Henry II who was son of Empress Matilda, older daughter of Henry I. When Henry I died, Henry II was less than 2 years old, so the crown passed to cousin of his mother, Stephen.
  4. It could be about Citadel's white ravens, and approaching winter, not about someone who is an outsider/black sheep. Because Patchface was saying about crows not a crow. Or maybe white crows are wights, NW's Brothers that all will be killed by Others and become wights. Dead Brothers of NW - white crows. So it could be a prophecy that they all will die.
  5. What is readers' general opinion about why Jaqen was in Westeros, what was his mission prior he met Arya? I have read a theory that Faceless Men were searching info how to kill dragons, and that's why after parting with Arya, Jaqen went to Citadel. Though to me this theory seems unlikely. Because at that time dragons were still little. So if FM wanted to get rid of them, they could have done it with average arrows. Also I have a theory that FM and Iron Bank are parts of the same organisation. At about that time, when Arya met Jaqen, Iron Bank had a problem with Tywin Lannister. So they have sent Jaqen to spy after Lannisters. Probably to gather information whether Lannisters will be able to eventually pay their debt or not. Whether they can't at this moment pay what they own to IB, or are they don't want to pay, and thus are trying to trick IB. Patchface is also a Faceless Man. He's also the one who convinced Iron Bank to give money to Night's Watch. Maybe FM also received a prophecy about approaching doom, and they know about the Prince that was promised. So they have sent Jaqen to Westeros, to search info about who this Prince may be. Also maybe they originally thought that Rhaegar Targaryen was somehow connected to the prophecy. He died because, for some reason, he kidnapped Lyanna Stark, and last person who saw Lyanna, when she was still alive, was her brother Ned. Thus when Ned was imprisoned by Lannisters, Jaqen went into RK's dungeons and questioned Ned about Lyanna and Rhaegar. Thus they found information that Rhaegar had a child with Lyanna. And that there may be some clues or evidences about their secret marriage, and Jon's legitimate status. So to find those evidences Jaqen went to Citadel. FM know that Jon Snow may be son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, and they also think that he may be the Prince that was promised. So when Jon was killed by Brothers, Patchface will resurect him. Or rather Ghost, Patchface and Melisandre. Ghost's body will be a temporary vessel for Jon's soul, until he will be resurected. And his resurection will be different from Berric's and Cat's, because he will be revived by magic of two gods - Lord of Light and Many-Faced God.
  6. Though there is a democracy present in Westeros (elections of NW's Lord Commander, elections of High Septon, King's elections by Great Council, Ironborn's gathering where they choose their new King), and also there were precedents when people rebelled against dragonlords. And dragons are not immortal, neither invincible - even dragon of Aegon's wife was killed in Dorne. Pfff Sorry This contradicts nearly EVERYTHING, that you wrote in first part of your post, except maybe 'legitimacy not being in question' part: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Great_Council First three Great Councils were gathered at times when Targaryens were still a dragonriders. Furthermore third out of them was after Dance of the Dragons, and during that gathering they choose seven regents, for recently crowned young King Aegon III, whose mother was eated by a dragon, just a six years prior this Council. And also Aegon himself had a dragon, its name was Stormcloud. Last dragon died during reign of Aegon III, but that was in 153, 17 years after Third Great Council. Afterwards there was one more, after events in first story about Dunk & Egg. Also Cat Stark suggested to Renly that they should gather Great Council, to decide who will be King. Though Renly was only amused by this. 2. People suffering from the hands of the Starks, Baratheon, Lannisters, and Greyjoys, has nothing to do with Jon. At that time he was at The Wall. And also by the time of GC's gathering, it will be already known that he is a legitimate son of Rhaegar, thus he is a Targaryen, and not a Stark. Also what he did at The Wall, is a much lesser scandal, in comparition with everything that Dany did. Hmm... where to start? First - she's a heir in line for succession of Iron Throne, only because her brother Viserys named her as his heir. And how did she repaid him for that? - She took part in his murder. She's a kinslayer. Second - she killed many noble people in Essos, only because they were doing what was absolutely normal and traditional for those lands and nations. So Lords of Westeros won't choose her, because they wouldn't want her to change their laws and customs, and force upon their realm her views. She may be a breaker of chains, but for them she's just a barbarian queen. And furthermore a girl. And there was never a female ruler of 7K. People may not know much about Jon, but what they know about Dany is a purely negative information, furthermore all of it is actually true. She's such a bad, thoughtless and unorganised ruler, that even freed by her slaves, are asking her to let them go back to slavery. Also even though she came to their lands, and ruined their social structure, and was unable to stop a partisan civil war between ex-slaves and Sons of Harpy, when she will be bored by Pyramid of Meereen, she will chase after a new shiny thing - this time Iron Throne of King's Landing. Also by the time when she will finally arrive to Westeros, people of 7K, will be already aware of threat by the Others. And about resurection of Jon Snow. And Bran the 3ER. So people will be aware that their future saviour, the Prince that was promised, should be a warrior, because he will be a swordsman wielding Lightbringer sword. So Dany is not The Chosen One. Also who would people likely choose - daughter of Mad King, who killed her own brother, or son of noble and loved by everyone Prince Rhaegar, who was also raised by one of the most respected people in 7K, Eddard Stark?
  7. And whose son is he? Even though Planetos is a fictional world, even there female's pregnacy lasts 9 months. After Aerys was killed, Ned went to Dorne, and from there he brought Jon to Winterfell. It's obvious that in time of war, pregnant woman wouldn't be traveling across Westeros. And rebellion lasted longer than 9 months, and it started at least a few months prior Jon was conceived. So it's also obvious that in the beginning of rebellion, Jon's mother was in Dorne, and Ned was (don't remember where exactly) either at The Vale with Jon Arryn, or going to Riverlands for Brandon's wedding with Cat. Brandon was in Riverlands, and Benjen with his father was home at Winterfell. Jon looks like a Stark, so one of his parents was a Stark. Brandon and his father died 12+ months prior Jon's birth. And two out of three Starks, that were alive at the time, when Jon was concieved, were across half of continent away from place, where he was conceived and born. The only Stark that at that time was in Dorne, is Lyanna. Thus she is his mother. And she was supposedly kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen. It's questionable whether she was really kidnapped, or went with his willingly, but it's not questionable that the two of them were in Dorne together, prior Rhaegar went back to King's Landing, closer to the end of rebellion, while also leaving three of his Kingsguards to protect/guard Lyanna. So is it likely that Lyanna went with Rhaegar to Dorne, and when he was going to KL, she was already pregnant, he left his guards to stay with her, and despite all of this, father of Lyanna's baby is not him, but someone else? Ashara Dayne can't be Jon's mother. Neither is Wylla. In the beginning of rebellion, both were in Dorne, and Ned was up north. And during rebellion females won't be traveling thru battlefields, whether they are pregnant or not. Especially concidering that Ashara (same as her brother Arthur) was a Targaryen loyalist, and Elia's lady-in-waiting. Which makes it twice dangerous for her to travel thru lands, burning with civil war bitween people that supported Targaryens, and those that wanted all of them dead. And Wylla, may be an unknown to people insignificant person, though she had no money or resources to travel across Westeros, furthermore during war. Also additional reason why Ashara can't be Jon's mother, is because she was impregnated during Tournament at Harrenhall. She was beautiful, but not stupid. So it's unlikely that she was advertising loss of her virginity. So the only reason how people found out about her disgrace, is because she became pregnant, and was sent back home to Starfall. That was in 281, while Jon was born in 283. Thus he is not that baby. And it's unlikely that Ashara first gave birth to one child, whose father may be, or may not be Ned, and some time after that, she became pregnant again, this time with Ned being the father. First of all, because the possibility of that is utterly absurd, and second - problem with logistics, that I already stated before. Jon's mother was impregnated in 282 in Dorne, and at that time Ned was not there. So R+L=J is the only logical possibility.
  8. If Jon is legitimate son of Rhaegar, and Young Griff is really Aegon Martell, then even though Aegon is older, and thus first in line of succession, there is still a way for Jon to become a legal King. "With Maekar dead, it was unclear who should be king since two of Aegon's older brothers had died before his father. Daeron left a feeble-witted daughter named Vaella and Aerion an infant son, so a Great Council was called to choose the king. Aegon seemed the logical choice but many lords considered him "half a peasant" due to his youth among the smallfolk. The council approached Aegon's older brother, Maester Aemon, but he refused, stating the crown should be given to Aegon." Great Council will choose Jon because he is Westerosi, while Aegon is an outlander. People of 7K wouldn't want to be ruled by a foreigner, they would rather choose someone local, who was raised alongside them, following same customs, praying to the same gods, and would understand and fulfill their needs. For the same reason people won't choose Dany. Because both options - foreign warlord and barbarian queen, are not a good candidates to be rulers. While Jon is like a Westerosian Cinderella, and people just love success stories like that - from bastard to Lord Commander of Night's Watch and then to King of 7K. So the only way for Dany to become Queen, is to marry with Jon.
  9. In George's writing style, worldbuilding components are: dragons; old prophecies; The Wall, that was build thousands years ago, by a race of magical beings - Children of The Forest; Long Night, White Walkers, wights; The Prince that was promised, magical sword Lightbringer that chases darkness away; over 300 years ago continent of Westeros was conquered by Aegon I, thanks to his dragons, and not to his political skills in the Game of Thrones; 40 years prior beginning of Song's events, Aegon V and many of his people died in a fire at Summerhall, because to be just a good King wasn't enough to effectively rule over 7K, and thus Aegon had to try and hatch a dragon's egg; 15 years prior beginning of Song, Crown Prince of ruling dynasty, kidnapped a girl, who he believed was necessary for fulfilment of an ancient prophecy, about a hero who will defeat darkness, and his will be the Song of Ice and Fire. It's obvious that in the world created by George, the most important and defining part of it, is the battle against The Big Bad Evil, and not a political games. So actually it is fitting to George's writing style, to crown as a King a hero and a saviour. It's not The Lord of The Rings, which doesn't mean that a good guy, who fought for peace, can't be crowned in the end of his story.
  10. I also think that he won't be sitting on Iron Throne. Because either he will die while fighting against Others (he will kill their leader and anihilate all wights, but he will also die), or he will live and be crowned, but Iron Throne will burn together with Red Keep and King's Landing. Mad King was going to burn everything, and he had lots of wildfire made for that. I'm million % sure, that in the end someone will use it, and KL will be destroyed. Either that will be Cersei, or Euron, or good guys will have to do this, if the city will be infested by the walking dead. There could be. For example: shortly prior confrontation against Others (when people of Westeros will already know about the threat), 7K will be left without ruler. Cersei and Tommen will be killed, for example by Sparrows, or by Euron, who will ransack Red Keep, load all stolen goods on his ships, and escape to Essos, leaving city in chaos, and 7K headless. So on one side 7K won't have a King to rule them, and on the other side - someone will have to unite armies of 7K and lead them to war against Others. They will have to crown someone, to make that person lead 7K's armies. People won't follow not a King. They will follow only someone who will have a power and authority, someone under whose leadership they won't be afraid to face death. We already have similar precedent in Song - people crowned Robb as The King in The North. Which proves that for people of Westeros it is important for them, that they are following a King, not just some dude. Jon's origin will become known shortly prior confrontation with Others. So 7K's government will crown Jon as King of 7K, and he will lead their armies. Most likely he will die during war, or even if he will survive, he won't want to be King in peacefull times. So he will stay on The Wall, as The King in The North, and Lord Commander of Night's Watch. I think that Iron Throne is archaic/outdated, so next ruler (after Lannisters-Baratheons) of 7K won't sit on it.
  11. THANK YOU! Well said. All this 'Jon supposedly being Ned's bastard', was needed for him to learn to stand on his own, and earn people's recognition as just Jon, not The Bastard of Winterfell, or someone's son. People will respect him, and follow after him, because of his personality, and his good deeds. So even after it will become known that he is a Targaryen, his followers will remain loyal to him, and won't judge him for all bad things Targaryens did. He needed to rise above his origin, and build a name for himself, not based on who his parents are. People will accept him as their King, not only because he is a legal successor of Targaryen dynasty, but also because they will respect him for everything he did so far for them. And his legal status will be just an additional bonus. I always thought that he did knew, even before Ned. Both him and Jon Arryn were on Small Councill, both were living in Red Keep. And also Renly was Master of laws. It's likely that when Jon was investigating, Renly knew about this. Maybe Jon even shared with him about his suspicions, and asked his opinion, about how should SC proceed, if information about Cersei's kids being Jaime's bastards, will be confirmed. What are they supposed to do in this case, with Robert's and Cersei's marriage. What 7K laws are saying about adultery, and marriage annulments. He could have consulted with Renly. He could have asked his opinion about some hypothetical situation, without actually saying that it's about Cersei and her kids. But after Jon's death, and when Ned was snooping around, Renly realised that it wasn't just a hypothetical situation. He didn't cared about legal status of his children, all he cared about is to fullfill the prophecy. So if for taking part in it, Lyanna demanded for Rhaegar to cast aside his wife, and marry with her, he had no other choice aside from complying with her wishes. If Lyanna said to him - "Marry me, or I will kill myself.", Rhaegar had to marry with her. It's not definite whether annulment made Rhaegar's kids bastards. If only his marital status with Elia was revoked, but children from that marriage remained legitimate, then all of his kids were in succession line. Maybe second child was Rhaegar's, but there is a possibility that the daughter was Oberyn's. Jon Con said about Elia, chapter 61 from Dance: "A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward." He said that she wasn't worthy of him, and also this - Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. <- My theory: after wedding ceremony, Rhaegar (and also some of his closest people, including Jon Con, those that brought Elia into his bedroom, and undressed her) saw that she was already pregnant. Maybe she wasn't worthy, not because of her weak health, but because she wasn't a virgin when she married with him, and she was already pregnant from some other man. For about a year prior Elia's and Rhaegar's wedding, she and Oberyn were traveling. Maybe that's when they did "it", i.e. the baby. Also this, from wikia: " When in his teens, Oberyn travelled with his mother, the ruling Princess of Dorne, and his sister, Princess Elia Martell, and met multiple potential marriage candidates for his sister, visiting castles at Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, and Crakehall. Oberyn spent his time mocking Elia's suitors." <- looks like a behaviour or a jealous lover, or someone who wants to keep the girl for himself, not to let her marry with someone else. She didn't had to have anyone to pressure him. She could do it herself. All she had to do, is to say an ultimatum - Marry me, or else. And why would that be Lyanna's concerns? Why should she think about wellbeing of Elia's children, and not her own future child? Why would she agree to become Rhaegar's mistress, and give birth to his bastard, just for the sake of Elia's children remaining as legitimate? Why would she care about Elia's children, or what Rhaegar wanted? Because if he wanted to f*ck her, he had to agree to her terms. Also the only thing Rhaegar had to do to assure Aegon's inheritance, is to stay with his wife, and for the rest of his life to remain celibate (because new possible pregnacy was too dangerous for Elia's health), and not to kidnap young maidens and impregnate them. If Elia's first child wasn't Rhaegar's, and she was already visibly pregnant on their wedding night, he could have had witnesses, that could have testified about this - Jon Connington, Dragonstone's maester, etc. Rhaegar could have annulled their marriage, based on his young wife not being a virgin when they married, and also being pregnant from other man. It would be qualified as fraud on Elia's part.
  12. When he wanted to marry with his brother's widow, he was given special permission, but when he wanted to end their marriage that lasted 24 years, he repelled that permission. Which actually proves only one thing - people of high standing and with lots of money, can do whatever they want, and laws will be changed according to their will. Even Bible has contradictions. 1) Deuteronomy 25:5 "If two brothers are living together on the same property and one of them dies without a son, his widow may not be married to anyone from outside the family. Instead, her husband's brother should marry her and have intercourse with her to fulfill the duties of a brother-in-law." Matthew 22:24 ""Teacher," they said, "Moses declared that if a man dies without having children, his brother is to marry the widow and raise up offspring for him." 2) Leviticus 20:21 "If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity. He has violated his brother, and the guilty couple will remain childless." Matthew 14:4 "Because John had been telling him, "It is not lawful for you to have her." 1 and 2 are polar opposites of each other. My general consensus - what the heck were those people smoking Also Tommen married with his brother's widow.
  13. Actually it isn't. People claim that Jon is not in line of succession, because even if he is son of Rhaegar, he is still a bastard, thus he has no legal claim. Though annulment of marriage with Elia (or divorce, or somehow getting a special permission from High Septon for a second marriage), is one of options how Jon could be legitimate, and thus have a claim. So all this annulment discussion is relevant to topic of this thread. How about this - father of both children was Oberyn. Rhaegar learned about this, and that's the reason why he publicly humiliated Elia, by crowning Lyanna, and also left Elia for over a year. This also explains why Aerys said that the girl smells dornish, and why Oberyn couldn't get over death of Elia and her children, and also why he was hinting to Jaime (or was it Cersei) that he has nothing against incestual love. Cersei was married to Robert, who was partially Targaryen, and she gave birth to children of her brother Jaime. Could be that Elia, even though she was married with Rhaegar, who was Targaeryen, gave birth to children of her brother Oberyn.
  14. Yes, it is. Even in modern world. Look part United States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment "Fraud. A spouse is tricked into marrying the other spouse, through the misrepresentation or concealment of important facts about the other spouse, such as a criminal record or infertility." Important facts could be not only criminal record or infertility, but also if one of spouses is an addict, or has a huge debt, or has a serious desease, etc. and didn't informed about this, his/her significant other, prior their wedding. It means a lot. Out of Rhaella's 9 pregnancies, only two children survived, so survival rate is 22%. Which means that to assure continuation of his line, Rhaegar had to have at least 4 children, or better 5. And Elia can't give birth to any more. They had their own maester at Dragonstone. And each maester is loyal to house to which he vowed to serve. Elia was very ill after first childbirth. And after second she nearly died. There's no need to be a maester, to realised that even one more child, is not an option. He isn't interested in continuation of Viserys' line. Also originally he thought that he is the PTWP, but later for some reason he changed his mind and thought, that it will be his children - Prince and dragon heads. If he is one of the heads, and he already had two children, then maybe he thought that the child has to be a boy? Thus three heads were Rhaegar, Aegon, and Lyanna's future son.
  15. I'm saying that annulment is one of possible options, alongside with divorce and double marriage. ASOIAF is inspired by Europian medieval history, including War of Roses, Henry VIII, etc. Henry VIII annulled marriage with his first wife Catherin of Aragorn. Second wife Anne Boleyn was executed. Third wife Jane Seymour died after giving birth to Henry's son Edward. So the king already had a male heir, nevertheless he married again. THREE more times. Fourth wife Anne of Cleves - annulment. Fifth wife Catherine Howard was executed. Sixth wife Catherine Parr wasn't executed, and marriage with her wasn't annuled. Probably only because Henry died two and a half years after their wedding, and he was ill for the most part of that time, so he didn't managed to get rid of his latest wife prior his own death. Jacqueline Hainaut was married four times, two of her marriages were annulled (she lived at the same period as Henry V). Prior annulment of her marriage with John IV Duke of Brabant, her lady-in-waiting was Eleanor nee Cobham. And later this Eleanor married with her ex-husband John. Also she supposedly had a secret wedding with one of her husbands, two years prior their official wedding. Catherin of Valois (mother of Henry VI) after death of her first husband Henry V, secretly married with Owen Tudor, and even gave birth to six of his children, including Edmund Tudor. Untill her death those children were raised in secret. Edmure's wife and mother of King Henry VII was Margaret Beaufort. Her first marriage was annuled. She was married four times. After death of Edward IV, Parliament issued statut that annulled his marriage with Elizabeth Woodville, and all their 10 children became bastards. Their wedding was also secret. Edward's mother Cecily Neville didn't liked his wife Elizabeth, and was trying to make her son to annul his marriage, even though they already had children at that time (three daughters and one son). Elizabeth Jane Shore nee Lambert, who was mistress of Edward IV, annulled her marriage with her first husband John Lambert, she claimed that he was impotent. I easily found 7 marriage annulments in times during or close to War of Roses. In actual history of medieval Europe, by which GRRM was inspired, marriage annulment amongst important historical figures, wasn't rare. Kings of England and marriage annulments: Edward IV - Edward V - Richard III - Henry VII - Henry VIII - all five Kings in a row, had marriage annulment precedents in their lives. After death of Edward IV, Parliament annuled his marriage with Elizabeth Woodville. Edward V and his brothers and sisters temporarily became bastards, until Henry VII repelled Titulus Regius, that was originally issued by Parliament of Richard III. Henry VIII annulled two of his marriages. Thus I think that there's no way, that GRRM won't use annulment, at some point in his books.