Megorova

Bran's character is partially based on the Fisher King from Arthurian legends. And Bloodraven is the Wounded King. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_King "He may be derived more or less directly from the figure of Brân the Blessed in the Mabinogion. In the Second Branch, Bran has a cauldron that can resurrect the dead (albeit imperfectly; those thus revived cannot speak) which he gives to the king of Ireland as a wedding gift for him and Bran's sister Branwen. Later, Bran wages war on the Irish and is wounded in the foot or leg, and the cauldron is destroyed. He asks his followers to sever his head and take it back to Britain, and his head continues talking and keeps them company on their trip."

Edrik Dayne is Jon's milk-brother. Could be that in the future Dorne will become independent and they will have their own King, not a Prince, and that King will be Edrik. Maybe. Also Jon could become a blood-brother with Mance Rayder, who is the King of the Wildlings. Or Tormund could become the next King-Beyond-The-Wall. So if him and Jon will give together some sort of vow, then they will be sworn brothers, like Jon and the Watchers, only Tormund (or Mance) are/will be Kings. Also - Jon and Robb, and Bran to Jon, despite being not real siblings, were raised together like brothers, so that's what they are, factually, not genetically. Something like that. So "brother to kings" not necessary mean his actual brothers. Though, either way - that's a good find. If in the next book Jon will become "brothers" with some guy, we will know beforehand that in the future this guy possibly will become a King, or something like that. Who said that he isn't writing it now? My understanding is that POVs and scenes in TWOW and ADOS are split (based on available sample chapters from TWOW), and are happening in a parallel to each other, a bit like it was in ASOS and AFFC (POVs of all the POV-characters in the series just won't/can't fit into one book). Though the events in ADOS will progress further than in TWOW. Certain POVs will be cut by the end of book 7, because those characters will either die, or the POVs will be consolidated. For example - Sam will return to Jon, so we will be getting info from their side only from one of them, not both, like it was before. Etc. So he knows for sure that there will be 7 books, because he already planed out the general outline for all of them (a lot of the events that will hapen in the very end of the series were already revealed to the readers, thru numerous foreshadowings). Though, planing out the general outline is not the same as writing/completing the book. So he can't say now that he is near done with both books. Because that's not how it is. Despite him already knowing the basics of how this or that plotline will end in the series, the actual writing is still far away from "The End" line. And, if there will be 8 books, then it will happen only because printing capabilities are not without a limit, not all publishers can print books with 1000+ pages. So if there will be a split, it will be not because of bad planning ahead on GRRM's part. Euron always was a troublemaker, to put it mildly (when they were children, he was sexually abusing his younger brothers. Also - did their father really died in a battle, or was he killed by Euron?). So it's likely that his family kept him as their dirty secret, and he wasn't introduced at the royal court in KL. Thus people knew about him, that there's this Ironborn captain who is one of King Balon's numerous brothers, but didn't knew him personally. Also it was Euron's idea to burn Lannister fleet at Lannisport, during the Greyjoy Rebellion in 289 AC (this is known only from the POVs of the Greyjoys, so could be that it isn't publicly known information that it was specifically Euron's doing. At least it wasn't known/advertised before). So it's likely that afterwards he wasn't welcomed at court, or anywhere near the Lannisters-Baratheons. Additionally Euron also had spent a lot of time abroad, and he was in exile, so there's that. So the members of the Council didn't knew him. By the time of that meeting Euron was out of the spotlight for close to 10 years (since 289). Thus there's nothing strange that he was unknown to them. And Aurane knew about Euron, though was staying quiet, because it's likely that he is working for Varys. And Varys wanted to cause maximum chaos in the 7K, before fAegon's arrival. If Euron will damage 7K's fleets, then it will be easier for the GC to invade, and to freely navigate the coast of the 7K.

I have a question that is not exactly a question, I just have a theory and want to know someone else's opinion on this topic. So, the not-a-question is: if the vows of the Night's Watch is a riddle about six specific characters of ASOIAF, then who in your opinion could be "the shield"? (and the others) -> "I am the sword in the darkness" - Brienne, or maybe Jaime. "I am the watcher on the walls" - Shiera Seastar. "I am the fire that burns against the cold" - either Dany, or maybe Melisandre. "the light that brings the dawn" - the wielder of Lightbringer/Jon. "the horn that wakes the sleepers" - Sam (because he has the Horn of Winter). "I am the shield that guards the realms of men." - who could be this one??? Any ideas? It's from Corvo the Crow's thread, this one: His idea is that the vows reflect the characters from the past, though, knowing GRRM's writing style, that history repeats itself, it's likely that not only the vows were based on legendary people that created Night's Watch, but also they foreshadow the events that will occur in the future. So amongst the current characters there could also be this "sword", "shield", "fire", etc. So - who's the shield?

They all knew the truth about who their real father was, that their fathers were Gaemon and Viserys, not Aegon III. Gaemon was Aegon II's bastard, and he was the one who poisoned Aegon III in 135 AC, so he was a kinslayer, because him and Aegon III were first cousins. Baelor and Rhaena, out of Queen Daenaera's five children, were the only two fathered by Gaemon - the kinslayer, so their entire lives they were repenting for their father's sin. And Baelor locked Rhaena and the other two princesses into the tower, to keep them from Aegon IV, who actually was a half-brother of Daena and Elaena. Larra Rogare was intending to create something like a super-human, and was experimenting with genetical engeneering, using her son as a breeder. Eventually he did had a child with all three of his sisters - his full sister Naerys (princess Daenerys - mother of Duncan the Tall) and his two half-sisters - Daena (Daemon Blackfyre) and Elaena (Viserys Plumm). Aegon IV also had a child with his own daughter - Jeyne Lothston (the Bastard of Harrenhal), and a child with his own mother - Serenei of Lys/Larra Rogare (Shiera Seastar/Quaithe/the Three-Eyed Crow). You people just don't understand what ASOIAF is about.

He was a monster, he did horrible things, even worse than his uncle. You'll see later. "When Willam Stackspear suggested that perhaps she was part of the reward the Volantene had been promised, Lady Cassandra burst into tears. Yet even her confession paled beside that of Lady Priscella Hogg, a sad and somewhat simple girl of fourteen, stout and short and plain of face, who had somehow conceived the notion that Prince Viserys would marry her if only Larra of Lys were dead. “He smiles whenever he sees me,” she told the court, “and once when he passed me on the steps, his shoulder brushed against my bosom.”" Viserys manipulated that girl into joining their conspiracy, in which they orchestrated poisoning of Aegon III and Queen Daenaera. He lied to her that he will marry with her if Larra will die. Though actually that was all a lie, and he had no intentions of getting rid of Larra, because she was the one behind all those plans, and he just did what she told him. That girl was simpleminded, so nobody believed afterwards into what Viserys told her. Based on what she said, how she said it, they all thought that she was just reading too much from just him smiling, maybe not even at her, and him once supposedly accidentally touching her, when they were passing each other. The courtiers thought that she was an idiot, and she really was an idiot, though it wasn't a lie or her misinterpretation, that he told her that if only his wife was dead, then he could have married her, and she believed him and took part in their plans, without actually knowing what those plans really were about. Viserys was a manipulative psychopath.

Daemon Blackfyre lost in the civil war, and Viserys II ruled as a King for only one year. They were both unfit to rule, so according to your conclusion - those two are supposed to be adulterers, and they are, because they had illegitimate children on the side. Daemon Blackfyre had a child with princess Daenerys -> Duncan the Tall, and Viserys II had three children with his sister-in-law Queen Daenaera - Daeron I, Daena the Defiant and princess Elaena. Maybe. Elaena's father was Viserys, not Aegon. The real Aegon III died in 135. I'm not making this stuff up. Just read F&B attentively, it is all there -> Larra Rogare, Viserys and Gaemon Palehair poisoned Aegon III and replaced him by shadow-glamouring Gaemon (and sometimes Larra, and sometimes Viserys) into Aegon. So Aegon III's children were actually - two were Gaemon's - Baelor the Blessed and septa Rhaena, and three, inclusing Elaena, were Viserys' children. So Elaena named her son Viserys after her real father - Viserys II. It seems possible that Alysanne Stark was named after her great-grandmother - Alysanne Blackwood (Old Nan's real name). And Alysanne Tarth (one of Brienne's sisters) was also named after her great-grandmother - Alysanne Stark. 1. Alysanne Blackwood + Cregan Stark = Alys Stark + husband from House Karstark = Alys Karstark + Brandon Stark (Alys' maternal half-uncle); 2. Cregan Stark + Lynara Stark = Brandon + Alys Karstark = Beron + Lorra Royce = Alysanne Stark + Duncan the Tall = twin-children - their son is Hodor's paternal grandfather, and their daughter (maybe) was a maternal grandmother of Meris Cafferen - mother of Brienne and Alysanne Tarth (their other two siblings possibly also were Meris' children, or maybe their mother was Selwyn's first wife, if he had more than one, which is a possibility). So we have here -> Alysanne Blackwood - 2 generations between them - Alysanne Stark - 2 generations between them - Alysanne Tarth. There's also Raya Stark and (possibly) her great-granddaughter Arya Flint (wife of Rodrik Stark). Mariah Stark (possibly) had a daughter - Melissa Blackwood, Melissa named one of her daughters Mya, and Mya named one of her daughters Melantha. Mya was named after her grandmother who was Mia (Mariah), and Melantha was named after her grandmother Melissa, both of their names could be shortened into Mel. Those were my assumptions, but these are facts: 1. Berena Stark was named after her father Beron. 2. Branda Stark had two older cousins, both named Brandon - son of her uncle Willam, and that Brandon who was a son of Branda's uncle Artos. And all three of them were named after their paternal great-grandfather - Brandon Stark (father of Beron and a son of Cregan). Cregan + wife = Brandon + wife = Beron + wife = Willam, Artos, Rodrik and their children - Brandon, Brandon, and Branda.

I may be confusing this with how it happened in the show (in Beric's case), though if I do remember correctly - when Torros performed kiss of fire on Beric, he wasn't expecting that it will bring him back from death. Torros himself was unaware what this "kiss" can do. So the question is - if he wasn't intending to resurrect Beric, and he didn't even knew that the kiss of fire is actually also a kiss of life, then why did he kissed him? -> That's because possibly it's a part of an ancient funeral ritual that is usually performed by Red Priests for their fallen comrades - the other Red Priests (in my opinion, the Red Priests were using this ritual on their fallen comrades during the First Long Night, to prevent them from rising as White Walkers after they died. It's a cleansing ritual that prevents "winter magic" from infecting dead bodies and turning them into zombies). I'm sure that Torros had previously performed this ritual on many other people (despite the fact that he was supposed to use it only on the other Red Priests, not on the average people), and in the past nothing ever happened - the people that died remained dead even after the kiss. So why did the kiss worked differently on Beric and Cat? -> In my opinion, that's because both of them are dragonseeds. You know this my theory that amongst ASOIAF's characters there are many of those who are actually bloodrelated to Targaryens. So, in my opinion, amongst Beric's ancestors there was Rhaena Targaryen - wife of Garmund Hightower. According to TWOIAF, they had six daughters. I think that those daughters married with a Hightower, Dayne, Dondarrion, Arryn, Tully and Tyrell. So the children of those daughters were: - Dyana Dayne (wife of Maekar I Targaryen and the mother of Aegon V) and her siblings, - Jenna Dondarrion (wife of Baelor Breakspear Targaryen) and her siblings, - Alys Arryn (wife of Rhaegel Targaryen) and her siblings, - Medgar Tully's father and his siblings (apparently they were the children of one of Rhaena's daughters that married with the son of either Kermit or Oscar Tully), - Leo Longthorn Tyrell and his siblings. So could be that Beric Dondarrion is a dragonseeds thru one of his ancestors - one of Jenna Dondarrion's brothers, who was one of Rhaena Targaryen's grandchildren. And Catelyn Tully is possibly also Rhaena's descendant, thru her father Hoster Tully and before him thru Medgar Tully, who possibly was Princess Rhaena's great-grandson. And also could be that Cat is a dragonseed thru her mother - Minisa Whent, who in my opinion was a granddaughter of the founder of House Whent, who possibly was the Bastard of Harrenhal and the secret child of Jeyne Lothston and Aegon IV Targaryen. So the kiss of fire worked on Beric and Cat as the kiss of life because both of them were dragonseeds, and dragons are "fire made flesh". Thus the fire revived their dead flesh, because they are - blood of the dragons. So Torros in the past was performing this ritual on many people. Like those priests that in the real world cross the forehead of the dying people, or something like that. For Torros it was just a symbolic gesture, just a part of a funeral rites. And it's just a pure coincidence that one of the people on whom Torros performed this symbolic ritual (the real meaning of which got lost in times), turned out to be a dragonseed, on whom this ritual worked as a revival tool. And then later, when they found Cat's body, could be that Beric just felt in her the same thing as was in him - that there's "fire" in her blood, thus in her case this ritual will also work as a revival tool. And that's why he did it. Because after each of his revivals he was becoming less and less himself, so he wanted to end his existence. And by passing his "fire" to Cat, this way he made his final death not meaningless. He provided Cat with an opportunity to avenge her death, and to make amends, and to say goodbye to her family, or something like that. P.S. If anyone has a better explanation - be my guests.

Who needs mushrooms, if they have the shade-of-the-evening in that world.

I think that the "enlightening" that Dany will receive from those crones is that she will find out that her husband - Khal Drogo, was partially Targaryen. Considering that Brown Ben Plumm's mother and maternal grandfather were both Dothraki, and they were Viserys Plumm's descendants, it appears that maybe one of Viserys' daughters married with a Dothraki Khal, same as the other Viserys many years later married his sister - Dany, to a Dothraki Khal (it's a parallel between those two Viseryses). Thus there is a possibility that not only Brown Ben's grandfather was a son of Viserys Plumm's daughter, I think that Khal Drogo's paternal grandfather also was one of her children, so Drogo is a descendant of Aegon IV Targaryen thru his bastard-son - Viserys Plumm, and thru Viserys' daughter that married with a Dothraki and was a maternal great-grandmother of Brown Ben and paternal great-grandmother of Drogo. This explains why Rhaego has silver-gold hair and purple eyes, despite his father looking like a typical Dothraki - that's because even though Drogo didn't looked like Valyrian, he actually was partially Targaryen by blood. Maester Aemon died when he was a bit over 100 years old. Bloodraven is ~125. Shiera Seastar is over 110 years old. So it's likely that Viserys Plumm' daughter is still alive, and it's likely that she is one of those crones at Vaes Dothrak. If she is indeed there, it explains how the crones are able to predict the future - that's because amongst them there's at least one "dragondreamer" with Targaryen blood, like Daenys the Dreamer, who predicted the Doom of Valyria. I think that it's very in GRRM's style to make Dany meet one of her relatives from the previous generations. She missed meeting maester Aemon, though she will meet someone else from the same generation as him and Bloodraven and Shiera/Quaithe. I'm wandering what kind of advices that crone will give to Dany. Maybe - kill all the Khals, and take over Vaes Dothrak? That meeting for Dany can be a real game-changer. Because, even though she met Quaithe, Quaithe didn't revealed to Dany who she really is, and talked to her only in riddles. Though that crone can reveal to Dany a lot of information about her family. She lived thru the reigns of Daeron II, Maekar I, Aegon V, etc. It's likely that she also knows a lot of information about Golden Company, and what kind of connection Varys and Illyrio had with the Dothraki. Could be that this person will be the "medium" thru whom GRRM is planning to reveal to the readers all that information about what happened in the Targaryen family since the end of The Mystery Knight. Can't wait to read it I want TWOW! I want TWOW! Gime, gime

http://searcherr.work/

They become Bronn, and Shae, and Petyr Baelish (the Mockingbird). Both and both. And they are raised, so they grow up loyal to Varys and Illyrio, whom they see as their guardians/parental figures/caretakers/benefactors. So it's likely that they are not paid for what they do, because they do it out of gratitude and loyalty, for free. What do you think? -> "Littlefinger smiled. "Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man's balls in the palm of my hand." He cupped his fingers, smiling. "Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch."" "“The ones you need are hard to find... so young, to know their letters... perhaps older... not die so easy...” “No. The younger are safer... treat them gently if they kept their tongues the risk...”" <- there are no punctuation marks in that part of the sentence, so parts of the sentences are missing. Arya heard only parts of that conversation. Just because it was written there the way it was, it doesn't mean that she didn't misheard some parts. For example - "The younger are safer (...) treat them gently (...) if they kept their tongues (...) the risk (...)" <- could be that in those places -> (...) <- he/they said something, though Arya didn't heard what, and didn't realised that she missed those parts too, same as she missed those parts that were marked with -> ... <-. The phrase "if they kept their tongues" could mean something absolutely different from what the readers think. For example, in those parts that Arya didn't heard, Varys and Illyrio could have been discussing how certain information from Varys' little birds became known to Littlefinger, because those children didn't kept their tongues, in a sense that they revealed Varys' secret to LF, that's why LF later said to Cat - "if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that." The general opinion that all of Varys' little birds are mutes, that their tongues are cut out, is possibly a misconception, a misunderstanding of what GRRM once said. I have read that comment, and it wasn't GRRM's direct speech/quote, it was a retelling/notes from discussion. Here it is: https://towerofthehand.com/blog/2013/05/27-conquest-44-report-grrm/ What exactly did GRRM said then, is not known. Who asked him and what, is not known. In reply to what question did he said what he said about those little birds, is not known. And again - what exactly did he said isn't known. The person who wrote that report, could have misinterpreted and misremembered what was said. The phrase "if they kept their tongues the risk" could be partial with some of it not heard by Arya, and what she heard was misinterpreted by the readers as that supposedly Varys' little birds don't have tongues. Then someone in 2013 asked GRRM something about this (info in that link), while being under misconception that Varys' little birds are tongueles mutes. He or she asked GRRM something about the little birds, and GRRM answered that they are provided to Varys, and the exact meaning of what are the parameters of "that way" (They are "provided to him" that way.) got lost in the process of retelling. Does the phrase "that way" mean - mute, or does "that way" mean provided to Varys thru Illyrio, not in a sense what those children are like (supposedly mute, based on the misconception of the readers), but in a sense how (thru what path/way/method) do they become Varys' little birds - via Illyrio, and that's the meaning of the phrase "that way". And it doesn't mean what the readers thought. It's not an evidence/confirmation from GRRM, that the little birds are mutes, instead it is the source that started this whole misconception/mislead. Evidence that they are not mute: ACOK, Tyrion IV - "Varys gave him a shrewd look. "My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a . . . certain name . . . when they came for her.""

@Ran When was created Westeros.org, the year and the exact month? Thank you.

Look at the list of her suitors - "Amongst the places they visited were Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock." At Starfall and Oldtown they visited Daynes and Hightowers, who in my opinion were descendants of Rhaena Targaryen's daughters. At Arbor they visited the Redwynes. The wife of Runceford Redwyne (Olenna Tyrell's mother) in my opinion was Calla Blackfyre - a granddaughter of Aegon IV. So Elia's suitors were a Dayne, a Hightower, and a Redwyne - partial dragonseeds. And the other three locations they visited in vacational purposes. Maybe Oberyn wanted to see those places. Elia's suitors were partially Targaryens, same as was Elia herself. She was Daenerys Targaryen's great-great-granddaughter. So Elia's mother was looking for her a spouse with the dragon blood. The same thing were doing Rhaegar's parents. That's why they finally settled to marry Elia and Rhaegar, when they failed to find better candidates.

Because Elia was 1/16 Targaryen, and there was no other unwed female anywhere in the 7K with the dragonblood purer than that. It seems that King Daeron II's sister - Daenerys Targaryen, who married with Maron Martell, was a grandmother of a Kingsguard Lewyn Martell and his older sister, who was the rulling Princess of Dorne and the mother of Doran, Elia and Oberyn. So Elia was Daenerys' great-granddaughter, and thus she was Rhaegar's some sort of cousin. Princess Daenerys was King Daeron's younger sister, though there was big age difference between them. So she was close in age to her nephews - Baelor Breakspear (born in 170) and Maekar I (174-178). Her own children could have been close in age to Aerion Brighflame, maester Aemon, Aegon V, or could have been born even past 200 AC (which is the year of Egg's birth). Daenerys was born in 172, and there were female characters in ASOIAF who gave birth to their last children, when they were aged 44, 45, and even 47 years old. Daenerys was aged 47 in 219 AC. Aegon V's children were born - Duncan in 220-224, Jaehaerys 225, Shaera 226, Daeron 228, Rhaelle 229-233. So it's likely that some of Daenerys' children were close in age to Jaehaerys and Shaera, just a few years older than them. Thus her grandchildren could have been close in age to Aerys and Rhaella, a few years older than them, and Lewyn Martell and his sister (Elia's mother) were those grandchildren. If that is the case, then Daenerys' children were King Maekar's first cousins, Lewyn Martell with his older sister were second cousins of King Aegon V, Elia and her siblings were third cousins to King [Edit: Jaehaerys and Queen Shaera, and third cousins once removed to Aerys and Rhaella. So Rhaegar and Elia were third cousins twice removed]. That's why they married - because she was a dragonseed with Targaryen blood. When Steffon Baratheon died on his mission to Volantis, where he was supposed to find a pureblooded dragonseed bride for Rhaegar, there was no other choice left aside from Rhaegar marrying with Elia. The other "Targaryens by blood" were either already married, or they were not "Targaryen-enough". For example, there was Mina Tyrell - a daughter of Olenna Redwyne, whose mother, in my opinion, was Calla Blackfyre. Calla was 1/2 Targaryen, with both of her paternal grandparents being Targaryens - Aegon IV and Daena the Defiant. So Olenna was 1/4 Targ, and Mina was 1/8 Targ. Maybe Aerys didn't approved Mina as Rhaegar's bride because by 280 AC Mina was either already married, or she was too young to marry. There was also Ashara Dayne (a descendant of Princess Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower, who had six daughters that married with members of House Hightower, Dayne, Tyrell, Tully, Arryn, and Dondarrion), though she was too young for Rhaegar. Apparently Malora Hightower was dismissed as bride-candidate because she was supposedly crazy. Her next sister - Alerie Hightower, was already married by the time when Rhaegar was looking for a bride. Denyse probably also was married, and the next two sisters - Alysanne and Lynesse, were too young. In House Tully - Cat was already engaged, and Lysa was too young. There was no girls in that generation of House Arryn, same with the Dondarrions. Lyanna Stark, who was also partially Targaryen (thru her great-grandmother - Melantha Blackwood - a granddaughter of Aegon IV, thru his bastard-daughter - Mya Rivers) was already engaged with Robert Baratheon. So Elia Martell was the only available option.

TWOIAF, House Lannister under the Dragons: "The years that followed were as dismal as any in the long history of the westerlands. Conditions in the west grew so bad that the Iron Throne felt compelled to take a hand. Thrice King Aegon V sent forth his knights to restore order to the westerlands, but each time the conflicts flared up once again as soon as the king’s men had taken their leave. When His Grace perished in the tragedy at Summerhall in 259 AC, matters in the west deteriorated even further, for the new king, Jaehaerys II Targaryen, lacked his sire’s strength of will and was besides soon embroiled in the War of the Ninepenny Kings." Not all battles were part of some big war. There were all sorts of small skirmishes and uprisings on local level in various regions of the 7K. Like there were many battles and conflicts between Northmen and the Wildlings, there were also multiple smallscale conflicts between Westerlanders and Ironborn, Westerlanders and the Reachmen, Westerlanders and the other Westerlanders. So that's when Tywin gained most of his battle experience - in those smaller conflicts.

Don't try to move the point of discussion onto a different topic. No, we're not talking about a situation with older man/younger woman. We're talking about the situation that Maron Martell, most likely, based on the fact that he married with princess Daenerys only 17 years after his sister married with Daeron, because he was a younger out of the two Martell-siblings. And if that is so - if he is indeed was younger, then it was Myriah and not Maron, who would have became the Ruler of Dorne, after the death of their father. Which also means that originally Maron was merely a second in line of the Dorne Throne's succession. So for him to marry with a royal Princess was a level-up. Ex-Royalty and Ex-second in line to Dornish Throne < Husband of the 7K's Royal Princess and the King's sister. Also - the point of my previous post was that the situations in which there is an older man/younger woman, are fairly normal in Westeros. Even if there's a huge age gap between the spouses. Though that's not the same with a reversed situations, in which the wife is older than the husband. Things like that are not done. Not usually. Not in Westeros. And that's why Maron didn't married with Princess Rhaena, Daena, or Elaena, who were significally older than him. So instead his wedding with a Targaryen Princess, which would have finalized the pact arranged by Baelor I between Martells and Targaryens, had to be postponed for many years, until Maron and Daenerys both have reached a suitable age for the wedding. Which had occurred 17 years after Daeron's wedding with Myriah. Whether it was possible for Myriah to divorce with Daeron and to return to Dorne as the Rulling Princess, is a secondary question. Because whether it was possible or not, in no way influences the fact (or nearly a fact) of Maron Martell, most likely, being a younger sibling, which also means that without those two marriages - Myriah's with Daeron and Maron's with Daenerys, which were a combo-deal, Maron wouldn't have became the Rulling Prince of Dorne. The point of the Pact was for both of the Martell-siblings to marry with Targaryens. So without that Pact, which was a Double-Marriage Pact, Myriah would have remained being heir apparent of the Prince of Dorne, and after her father's death she would have became the Rulling Princess of Dorne, and Maron would have remained being just her younger brother. Though the Pact happened, was finalized thru double-marriages between their families, and thus Maron leveled-up - from the second in line to the Ruler of Dorne. So Maron did indeed leveled-up thru his marriage with Daenerys. Which was the point of my original post in this thread. But you just had to come here, and to begin nagging and nagging and nagging You wrote -> in response to my post -> No, originally he wasn't that. Because there was a big age difference between Daeron II and his younger sister Daenerys. Daeron married with Maryah Martell, and Daenerys married with Maryah's younger brother - Maron. So if Maryah didn't married with Daeron, then she, as an older sibling, would have ruled over Dorne. So Maron, as a younger sibling, originally was not a rulling Prince of Dorne, he became it only thru his sister's marriage with Daeron, and his own marriage with Daenerys. Because both of those unions turned Dorne into the 7th Kingdom. And I provided in my next post the evidences that people in Westeros do care about "age gaps", in cases when it's an older wife VS younger husband. Which would have been Maron's case, if he married with either Rhaena, Daena, or Elaena. And that's why he didn't married with either of those three, why Baelor the Blessed didn't negotiated for Maron's marriage with one of his sisters, and instead arranged his marriage with a significally younger Princess Daenerys, who was close to Maron's own age. And you're trying to switch the focus off the topic with -> What all that gibberish, that you wrote, has to do with what I wrote in answer to your objection that - Westeros doesn't care about "age gaps". And no - we were not talking about a situation with older man/younger woman. I was talking about THE OPPOSITE. I provided viable arguments that proved that your statement about Westerosians not caring about age gaps, in Maron's case was wrong, and you're trying to switch the focus onto a different point, not the one that was written in my post? You're constantly pestering me on this forum, and when you're failing, once again, to show that I'm wrong and to mock me (since you registered on this forum, you post Haha reaction to a lot of my posts), you're writting all sorts of irrelevant gibberish, and trying to switch the focus onto a completely different point, from what I actually wrote. Really? Does that tactic works for you in real life? Why won't you just stop nitpicking at everything I write. Your pathetic attempts to outsmart me, are getting stale. Do something with your attitute, otherwise you will look like a complete moron with all those Hahas, when it will be confirmed that my (tinfoily and absurd, in your opinion) theories were actually correct. ~~~ @The Bard of Banefort Sorry for taking your thread off topic. Joffrey Lydenn, who originally was just a mere knight, married with the King Gerold III Lannister's daughter, and became the King of the Rock. "The Maid brought forth a girl supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools that Hugor took as his first wife." <- that girl to Hugor of the Hill. He was the first King of the Andals, and she had a shady origin, maybe she was even a clone or an alien, or something like that, in case if the Seven were aliens. The Tiger-woman to the Bloodstone Emperor. Samantha Tarly to both of her husbands - Ormund and Lyonel Hightowers. Alys Rivers - a bastard servant of House Strong, she claimed that her son was Prince Aemon Targaryen's legitimate child. So they supposedly secretly married.

Of course they do. -> There was only one case (from the top of my head I remember only one ) when the wife-to-be was older than her fiencee - Larra Rogare was 7 years older than Viserys. In all the other cases the females were always younger than males. So I'm sure that Maron was a younger of the two Martell-siblings. Significally younger, and thus it wouldn't have suited for him to marry with any of Daeron's/Baelor's sisters. Because if he is indeed was (closer in age to Daenerys than to Daeron II and Baelor I's sisters) 19-25 years younger than them, then by the time when he would have been able to perform his husbandry duties, his wife would have been already past her childbirthing years. And that's why things like that - an older bride with a younger husband, is not something that is usually done, not even at Westeros. With Larra and Viserys being a rare exception.

@Jaenara Belarys Isn't it correct that if Myriah had divorced with Daeron, then she would have regained a right to succeed the Throne of Dorne? Because it's the same kind of thing as this -> Tyrion is Tywin's heir, though if Jaime will be extricated from the Kingsguard, then Jaime will again become Tywin's heir, and will succeed him as the Lord of the Casterly Rock. That's what Tywin was trying to do. ~~~ More examples of those who married up: Dalla to Mance Rayder. She's a mere smallfolk, or maybe a daughter of a chieftang, and her husband is the King-Beyond-The-Wall. Selyse to Stannis -> she's from a bannermen House, and he is from the rulling House of Stormlands, furthermore - the King's brother. Jorah Mormont to Lynesse Hightower. Tysha to Tyrion. Hizdahr to Dany -> he used to be just one of the Great Masters of Meereen, and thru marriage with her became the King of Meereen. Serra to Illyrio -> from a pleasure slave to the wife of a wealthy trader. There was also this character - called the Widow of the waterfront, she's the one who gave a ship to Jorah and Tyrion. She used to be a bedslave, but then married with the Triarch of Volantis. Yes, you can -> Durran Godsgrief married with a Goddess. His wife was Elenei - the Goddess of the Wind, and a daughter of the Sea God. Some people marry with Nobility, some with Royalty. But Durran surpassed all of them, by marrying with a Deity. Husband of a Goddess That's what I call significant leveling-up thru marriage. Durran ruled for a thousand years, could be that it was the marriage with a Goddess that made him more than a mere mortal, and thus his life-span got significally extended.

I explained above, in P.S. Also - after Maryah's wedding with Daeron and Maron's wedding with Daenerys, when Dorne stopped being independednt, and became one of the 7 Kingdoms, the Martells stopped being royalty, instead they became just nobles. Though thru their marriages they became connected to the royal family. Martells used to be a royalty of a single region of Westeros, and then they became spouses of the royalty of all seven regions of Westeros. 6+1 > 1.

They all were just nobles and then married with the royalty. Royalty > Nobles. P.S. If you meant what Daeron II's reasons to arrest Daemon had to do with marrying up, then - if Daenerys left Maron, then Dorne possibly would have extricated itself from the other Kingdoms. Maryah also could have divorced with Daeron II, and if she did and then returned to Dorne, then she would have replaced Maron as the ruler of Dorne. So as long as everyone remained in their assigned places - Daeron married with Maryah, and Daenerys with Maron, Maron was a rulling Prince of Dorne, and not a younger brother of a rulling Princess of Dorne. So that's how it's connected to leveling-up thru marriage.

No, originally he wasn't that. Because there was a big age difference between Daeron II and his younger sister Daenerys. Daeron married with Maryah Martell, and Daenerys married with Maryah's younger brother - Maron. So if Maryah didn't married with Daeron, then she, as an older sibling, would have ruled over Dorne. So Maron, as a younger sibling, originally was not a rulling Prince of Dorne, he became it only thru his sister's marriage with Daeron, and his own marriage with Daenerys. Because both of those unions turned Dorne into the 7th Kingdom. So originally Maron was merely a younger brother of a rulling Princess of an independent Dorne, but thru his marriage with Daenerys he became a brother-in-law of the King of the 7K, and a ruler of Dorne. Daeron the Young Dragon made a pact with the father of Maryah and Maron, that both of them will marry with one of the Targaryens, and only then the merging of Dorne with the other 6 Kingdoms would have been a done deal. Evidence: "The Gardens are my haven. Prince Maron raised them as a gift for his Targaryen bride, to mark Dorne’s marriage to the Iron Throne." - AFFC, ch 13. "The Water Gardens are my favorite place in this world, ser. One of my ancestors had them built to please his Targaryen bride and free her from the dust and heat of Sunspear. Daenerys was her name. She was sister to King Daeron the Good, and it was her marriage that made Dorne part of the Seven Kingdoms." - ADWD, ch 38. I think that one of the reasons why Daeron II sent his guards to arrest Daemon Blackfyre, prior the beginning of the First Blackfyre Rebellion, is because Daemon and Daenerys had a child together (Duncan the Tall), and Daenerys possibly wanted to separate from Maron, and to be with Daemon. And Daeron couldn't have let this happen, because Daenerys' marriage with Maron was the part of the pact. If she left him, then Dorne would have extricated itself from the rest of the Kingdoms. Another evidence that Maron likely was a younger out of the two Martells, is the fact that for his marriage with a Targaryen Princess people had too wait for many years - they married in 187, while Daeron and Maryah married in or before 170. In a sense that if Maron was close in age to Daeron (born in 153) and not to Daenerys (born in 172), age difference between whom was 19 years, then he could have married with some other Targaryen Princess, not necessary Daenerys. Because there was Daeron I's sisters - Daena (born in 145), Rhaena (born in 147), and Elaena (born in 150). It was Daeron I who negotiated with the Prince of Dorne that marriage between Daeron II and the Prince's older daughter - Maryah. If Maron was an older sibling, then Daeron I could have negotiated for his marriage with, for example - Elaena, who was 3 years older than Daeron II, or Rhaena, who was 6 years older than Daeron II, or Daena, who was 8 years older than Daeron II. Though none of those was negotiated, because it's likely that Maron was a younger brother of Maryah, he was closer in age to Daeron II's sister Daenerys, than to any of Daeron I's sisters. P.S. My mistake, sorry - it was Baelor the Blessed, Daeron I's brother, who negotiated double wedding pact with the Martells: "After the failed conquest of Dorne during the short reign of Daeron the Young Dragon,[9] King Baelor the Blessed ascended the Iron Throne and arranged the marriage of his cousin, Prince Daeron, to Princess Myriah Martell of Dorne as part of a dual marriage pact between the two kingdoms to make peace.[10]" Which doesn't make any difference to my post, because Baelor still could have offered to Maron any of those three Princesses. But he didn't, because the age difference between them and Maron was too significant. Thus - Maron was a younger sibling. And by the laws of Dorne (which Dornishmen were able to keep even after the merging) - it's the older sibling, no matter of what gender, who becomes the successor. So Maroh thru marriage with Daenerys did leveled-up.

Jenna Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, Aelinor Penrose, and Dyanna Dayne to four sons of Daeron II. Maron Martell to Daenerys Targaryen. Michael Manwoody to Princess Elaena, and her previous two husbands too. Melantha Blackwood to Willam Stark. Larra Rogare to Viserys II. Drazenko Rogare to Aliandra Martell. Runceford Redwyne to Calla Blackfyre (allegedly, because it's my theory, not a fact). Lyonell Selmy to Aenys Blackfyre's daughter (also a theory). Orys Baratheon to Argella Durrandon (he was a bastard half-brother of a Lord of Dragonstone, and she was a daughter of the Storm King, so for him it was a level-up).

You're underestimating me. I SO can. Magali Villeneuve, she's a French illustrator, freelance fantasy artist, and fantasy author - according to Wikipedia.

I haven't run from my own topic, I haven't forgotten that I wrote there that I will explain the basis for that theory. It's just that I was too busy in the past few days. I'll post my answer there in SS16, soon. Though I'm warning you - that post will be looooooooooooong. Brace yourself. Nope, you are just overreacting because you can't handle contradiction. I didn't meant you or the others with whom I was discussing that or other topics in a recent theads. I'm still conversing with you and them, despite your disregard of nearly everything I write, because you stay civil, unlike some other people who disagreed with me and then wrote in their posts - "dumbshit", "pile of nonesense", "what are you smoking?", "idiot"; or much worse wordings and then just edited/erased those things from their posts, before I reported on any of them. Isn't THAT mocking? Good thing that those people are already gone, not GONE gone - dead, just left the forum. P.S. I was gone for a day or two, and when I came back - the forum is suddenly purple, and there are stars everywhere. Is it just me, or to you it is also purple? Concerning THAT - read P.S. section of my next post in SS16.

This is NOT a theory (or at least not a theory in a conventional sense of this word), I just thought that I should share this info. This page - https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages_(Continued3)#Serenei_of_Lys there's an info - "Following rule #5, Serenei was no older than ~52 years old at the birth of her child, Shiera Seastar,[111] who was born no earlier than 178 AC (see Shiera Seastar). Therefore Serenei would have been born no earlier than ~126 AC." And that rule #5 is this - "A mother will be no older than ~52 years old at the earliest possibility for the birth of her youngest child, for the following reason: the Westerosi consider the age of forty-two to be "past [a woman's] childbearing years", and forty-four to be "well past her childbearing years",[9][10][11] although women of forty-four have been known to give birth to a child.[10][11] In real-life, the end of a woman's fertile cycle (menopause) occurs at an age of 49-52 on average, giving ~52 as a maximum age for giving birth to a child." THAT'S NOT TRUE!!! That is soooo wrong. That rule is obviously faulty. Because: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_over_age_50#Cases_of_pregnancy_over_age_50 In that list there are even several women who gave birth when they were aged 70+. Those pregnancies were achieved thru "Postmenopausal IVF treatment with oocytes donation". Obviously that there are no such things at Planetos, though they have an alternative - blood magic. These are my speculations on this topic: Though, casting my speculations aside (about what the actual meaning of "preserved her beauty by the practice of dark arts" is), in that list from Wikipedia there are several women that gave birth to their children when aged past 52, and that's without usage of any modern methods to assist conception. For example - a woman that gave birth in 1887, when she was 62 years and 6 months old, to a TRIPLETS. A 59 years old woman that gave birth in 1819, her previous child was born 35 years before this one. A woman that throughout 1960-70th gave birth when she was aged 52, 55 and 57 years old. A woman that gave birth to her FIRST child when she was 55 years old. In 1847 a woman that gave birth to her child three days prior to her 55th birthday. In total in that list there are 14 women that gave birth when they were aged between 53 and 62,5 years. So it is just an assumption, that in ASOIAF a woman couldn't have given birth, when aged past 52. That assumption is based on - "a woman's fertile cycle (menopause) occurs at an age of 49-52 on average". On AVERAGE! But there ARE special cases in the real world that extend past that limit of 52. The way that rule #5 is written in the Wikia - that this - "the end of a woman's fertile cycle (menopause) occurs at an age of 49-52 on average" is supposedly = this - "giving ~52 as a maximum age for giving birth to a child", is a wrong conclusion. Women CAN give birth past being aged 52, that's a FACT, there are 14 of those facts recorded in Wikipedia, so it's a false/wrong statement that "Serenei was no older than ~52 years old at the birth of her child, Shiera Seastar,[111]" The range of the possible years of Serenei's birth - that she couldn't have been born earlier than in 126 AC - is based on the assumption that she couldn't have been older than 52 at the time of Shiera's birth in 178-184. And that's wrong. She could have been past 52 at the time of Shiera's birth, and thus she could have been born earlier than in 126. Personally I believe that she was born in 115 AC. And I can believe in whatever I want, because I am just me. But the Wikia shouldn't insert into the characters' bio a faulty info, because those who read it, and perceive it as factual, are becoming misguided. P.S. I apologize if my ramblings insulted anyone. I actually appreciate all the work that is done by the contributors to the ASOIAF-Wikia. Though, what I don't appreciate, is being mocked based on a reason that my theories and ideas are going against the data presented in the Wikia (mostly factual, but in some rare cases a faulty source of info).