Jon_Stargaryen

Members
  • Content count

    17
  • Joined

  • Last visited

About Jon_Stargaryen

  • Rank
    Commoner
  1. He took the Seven Kingdoms from a surplus to a massive deficit in less than two decades, he left the realm with a crisis of succession that would ruin not only his own house, but at least two of the three great houses that supported him during the rebellion. There's also the fact that he nearly forced Khal Drogo's hand, by attempting to kill his wife, bringing his attention to the Seven Kingdoms as opposed to deterring his westward ambitions. How was he not a failure?
  2. I feel like you missed everything I wrote: I postulated that she is She's a twenty-first century woman, stuck in a world in the dark ages, meaning that despite her status of birth and ambition, the fact that she is a woman in a patriarchal world will always be held against her. You can say that she's a terrible person if you like- and to some degree, I will agree with you- but you are leaving out a lot of context: She was raped on a near nightly basis for the first few years of her marriage. Later, she was only raped once a year. The children of bastard Robert represented evidence that he was not the father of her children. This is not to excuse the murder of children. That is morally reprehensible (though it's never concretely stated that she murdered the children/all we have is Tyrion's thoughts and Varys' whispers). I'm just providing a rebuttal to a post that was taken out of context.
  3. He married Stannis to their most bitter rival, House Florent, which can't be seen as a boon for House Tyrell, given the persistent enmity between the two houses. There is plenty of evidence in the books that he held grudges. Ask House Darry, who were taken from a lordly house in the riverlands, to a knightly house with more than half it's land and nearly all of its wealth drained. The Reach supplies the Seven Kingdoms with the bulk of it's food, meaning that a war with the Reach would be costly in more than one way. They have a high population density, and the lack of hands providing food means that everyone will starve. That's how they influenced the situation in King's Landing from the Reach. That's also why Highgarden is a palace and the Red Keep is a castle. Security. Mandon Moore was an Knight of the Kingsguard, Robert died on a hunt attended by members of House Royce, and Petyr Baelish became master of coin. When did I ever say that Jon was afraid of Tywin Lannister? I just said that he understood. What Tywin's actions showed was the price of defying him. Aerys pooped on him numerous times throughout his reign, then made the mistake of thinking the distance between them could wash that away. He messed up. What Jon did was ally Robert to Tywin's blood to keep him on side, just in case Viserys ever came back. Now, from Tywin's perspective, it helps to make sure that they know where your allegiances lie. So he burned the proverbial Targaryen bridge. It was a smart move. He just didn't account for Robert's stupidity or Cersei's hatred. For this, see the above. I agree with the second sentence, but disagree with the first. Tywin did it because he was in a rough place. He had a son who was Aerys Kingsguard, he himself used to be the Hand of Aerys, and he tried to marry his daughter to Rhaegar for years. He had deep ties to the Targaryens, and that might have caused him trouble in the new monarchy.
  4. There was no reason. They got rid of a bunch of plot lines, so they decided to merge aspects oof certain characters with others. JonCon getting greyscale made sense, because it increases the importance of Aegon's Reconquista (The Last Blackfyre Rebellion; #faegon), giving the griffin lord a last chance at glory, seeing his "friends son" to his "rightful place." It'll probably be the last thing he sees.
  5. BUT not nearly as much as he would owe for Tywin doing the deed for him. Had he just taken the city, Robert would still need to dispose of the children, given that they have Dorne through blood, and the Reach would likely declare for them if they could be rescued (given their hunger for Tyrell blood on the throne) and there are dozens of smaller houses that would declare for them (some in the Storm Lands, the Riverlands and the Vale) and if we consider R+L=J, the Ned might have to declare for them too. Varys has already made it clear (for arguments sake (#faegon)) that he is a supporter of the dragons, so he would have likely enacted a scheme to free them and fight the good fight once again. For Robert to keep his crown, they had to die- aside from his obsession with dead dragon spawn. But think about his reign if he killed two children. There would be riots in the street on a daily basis. Not just in KL, but in any place where Robert's allies live: the Arryns, the Starks (after Robert forgave the deaths of Rhaegars children, the two were nearly irreconcilable), the Tullys all pride themselves on their HONOR. Where is the honor in killing children? If only there was someone with a proven record of killing children and walking away unscathed; someone who rules his kingdom with an iron fist; someone with imprecise (at best) moral compass. NOTE: This is important, because it has definitely been stated here at least once. Any time the statement, "Tywiin had to kill Rhaegars children" is brought up, people claim that it is a justification for his actions. IT IS NOT. His actions are morally reprehensible, and I'm sure that The Father won't be kind to him. However, if we're talking about from a tactical standpoint (take morality from the equation, make Robert a good kin and faithful husband, make Cersei a faithful wife and Jaime a decent Kingsguard) killing Rhaegar's children and wiping Viserys from the face of the earth is the most sound plan for the kingdoms going forward.
  6. Jon Arryn was Hand of the King during Robert's reign. Robert nearly had to beg Ned to become his Hand, meaning that the Starks wanted nothing to do with the politics of the south, and only did so when asked. The Tyrells were in a position where they couldn't step a toe out of line. They couldnt ask for more than they had, and when Robert asked, they gave willingly to avoid his wrath. I'd rather have power & prestige thrown at me when I don't want it, as opposed to having none when it's all that I want. On the second count, I also have to disagree. Had Tywin sat out the war, he would have been in the position of explaining his abstention to closeted sociopath. His actions during the war showed the lengths to which he would go to be on the winning team. Jon basically chose not to cross Tywin like Aerys did. You say that, but how many houses that sided with the Targaryens (that Robert could get to/impose his will on) were fine? The Reach houses were just following the orders of their liege, and he coouldn't go to war with the might of the Reach by himself. The only reason he won in the first place, was because the reach "besieged" Storms End. In fact, his only defeat was at the hands of the Reach. He couldn't get to Dorne to get his revenge on them. The Iron Islands eventually joined the war, though they didn't really do much. In summation, this isn't a justification, but a fact. The fact is, Tywin Lannister provided Bobby B. an invaluable service, ridding the throne of the only living DIRECT heir to the silver prince, who was, to be honest, well loved by nearly everyone. I've never seen anyone absolve him of this, but I have seen a certain understanding of his thought process.
  7. Don't forget the Tyrells... and the lesser Essosi lenders, I guess?
  8. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Bobby B. played himself. Sure, the love of his life was "kidnapped" and "raped" by the man whose family he deposed, but even then, he had beautiful wife, all his own (to the best of his knowledge). Unfortunately, he cocked that up too. Then, as if screwing up his marriage wasn't bad enough, he feasted, whored and tourneyed the Seven Kingdoms into debt (screw the LF Debt Scheme theory. The Hand's Tourney purse was ninety thousand gold dragons, in total. That doesn't account for the feasts that took place, which must have cost a fortune. Altogether, we're looking at on-hundred thousand dragons, as a conservative estimate. Now, multiply that by fourteen (because there is no way that Robert held a tourney for Ned's induction into his Small Council, but didn't throw tourneys for himself and, at the very least, "his first born son", if not all his children. So, even if he spent half as much on his own family's celebrations, it still makes it to about 100k per year for 14 years)) and you can see how he might have feasted the realm into ruin. The moment Robert- a stubborn, willful fool, prone to drinking, whoring and merriment in general, to a dangerous degree- took the throne, the realms, as well as their King, were doomed. I personally find Cersei to be a far more interesting woman. She's a twenty-first century woman, stuck in a world in the dark ages. I've actually done a character study on her, basically theorizing that she is not mad or power hungry, but rightfully ambitious.
  9. The simple answer is YES. Had Tywin not ordered the killing of Rhaegar's children, it would simply be him sitting out the war (along with Houses Greyjoy and Frey). This makes him a person of dubious loyalty at best, and an enemy at worst. And we all know what Robert does to his enemies. Killing the children of Rhaegar cleared the line of succession and bought him the gratitude of the new King. Gratitude that could be spent on making his daughter a queen and shoring up the crown's reliance on him as their principle ally. Otherwise, he might have found himself in the same position as the Tyrells.
  10. Debatable. Cat kidnapped Tyrion because she believed she was bringing justice to her son. Now the fact that she caused the War of Five Kings with this move doesn't make this wrong; just misguided. She hated Jon Snow because he was the bastard of her husband, and the living proof that her husband had cheated on her. In a society that is rooted in perception, this is a major blight on her familial image. She didn't really do anything wrong, as much as she trusted the wrong people. (though I will concede that freeing Jaime was wrong, given that she knew for certain that it was against the will of her King) Tyrion on the other hand did most of his dirt in the later books. Everything that he did in GoT through SoS (BoB, where he roasted hundreds' negotiating for the alliance with the Tyrells, Killing Tywin, smacking Joffrey, marrying Sansa (under duress)) was done in service of his King/family. We call it wrong because we're all on the opposite side, but in truth, it's just good strategy. Even killing Shae wasn't truly wrong, given that she gave false testimony against him (though this wasn't the reason he really killed her). The only people of unimpeachable moral fortitude are probably Jon Snow and Renly Baratheon (was tempted to add Stannis, but... you know... Shadow Babies...)
  11. I must protest. I don't think Sansa gets more flack than other characters who have done objectively worse things (with the exception of Tyrion, perhaps). The thing is, Sansa fans seemed determined to give her a free pass on the things she does, citing her age as an excuse, in spite of the very adult decisions she tries to make for herself. This is more or less a response to those that refuse to accept that she dun fucked up pretty frequently.
  12. Even by that metric, there are few characters that we would consider "good" that have purposefully done as much harm as Sansa. Cat or Tyrion, maybe?
  13. Only Sansa fans, and it's not BLIND hatred. Sansa embodies everything that is wrong with the elite of yesteryear: she gives no consideration to those she deems of a lower status (until she becomes someone of a quasi-lower status), she is naive to the point of being dangerous, and she has absolutely no marketable skills. To the point of Ned, Sansa was raised as a southern lady who would marry a southern man. Ned is from the North. What since would it make for a northern man, with little to no understanding of the faith of the seven, to raise a child who would need to know about the south. Ned was the best father to be shown among the nobility thus far. If you can make an argument against it, I would love to hear it. Lastly, the problem with that theory is, Arya escapes the RK which is crawling with Lannister men, Bran and Rickon escape WF by hiding in the crypts. How unrealistic are either of those situations. Sansa didn't escape because she was obsessed with trying to maintain her precious Joffrey. There is no BLIND hatred for Sansa, but understandable contempt, based on information provided. Her misery seems to be mostly self-inflicted. That being said, she is a product of her upbringing, and her upbringing made her soft. Keep in mind that Arya had the same upbringing, but seemed to buck it at every turn.
  14. I call BS: She clearly didn't learn from her mistakes. She lied and said she didn't remember how it wen town with Joffrey and Nymeria; Lady got killed. She told Cersei about Ned's plan to get them out of the city; all of the Stark household got killed/(and Jeyne was put to work ). She told Dontos of the Tyrell's plans; she was forced to marry Tyrion. Most of her wounds are self inflicted. I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally believed that she handled her situation the wrong way. I'm not saying it's her fault; she's a sheep because she was raised to be a sheep. The faith of the seven preaches about women being subservient (though it also preaches about obeying your father, but whatever). The problem is, she asserts agency all the time. She just does it poorly. And to the Arya point, I don't believe she would have actually killed them, but she certainly would have tried if given half the chance, given her track record in the book As an aside, no one is dumping on femininity. I've never heard a negative word about Margaery or Olenna Tyrell, and their feminine as shit. The main complaint is incompetence.
  15. I just want you to realize that the changes to her personality since book one are mostly cosmetic. She changed her attitude because she no longer has the luxury of being a spoiled brat. She's a prisoner of her own making, in a place where it is not good to be a prisoner. No one is obligated to put up with her shit like they were when her father was the Hand of the King and something like a brother to side king.