IronBars

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  1. Ok, as i said previously, i worked out the R+L=J, hints from the book, and iv stated reasons why at the point jon joined the NW would of been the time to tell him. All arguments to not tell him at that moment are civil war hes in danger etc which i more then countered to the point we have been arguing the same thing over and over. But doesnt change the fact at the point jon leaves Neds protection, him not knowing becomes more perilous for him because in the event someone finds out instead of being aware of who he is and aware the danger etc he is blind and ignorant to it, yes no one found out for 14 years i know but your whole argunent for not telling him is people finding out so cant use that as an argument. See i don't need to question my point, iv said countless times i think R+L=J is 99% certain, but the fact remains because ned didnt tell him at that point (for the list of reasons iv said) im not afraid to question it, You think those reasons are invalid, i think your argument of civil war etc as a reason ned didnt tell jon at this point is invalid. Hence we go in circles, As for tv show: Ok your misreading what i say, Jon 100% deserves to know who hes mother was regardless of who she is, deserves to know who she is/was, if hes mother is alive, if she died, what she worked at etc etc, im not saying otherwise. I'm just pointing out in the R+L=J theory, the reasons for not telling jon ie hes safety are not valid now because A) hes in danger anywsy B ) his ignorance puts him in more danger if truth comes out somehow because hes blind to it, C) he might not join the watch (a place he can never leave) if he knows the truth, C applies to all theories, a and b dont. There is no way to say if he would or wouldnt of still joined the NW, for jon everything would change, thinking your x and finding out your y there is a multtude of things that could happen, but if hes mother was just a washerwoman nothing would probably change, but if R+L=J or even N+A=J he deserved to know before making a decision he couldnt return from. Here you make a fair point. But that goes for the N+A=J theory as well. As for cat i actually think she was more worried about jon stealing her own childrens birth rights more so then of ned straying, i have no textual evidence to support this but to me seems very likely because she knew ned for 2 weeks ? Before he left for war again, called him plain or some such, seemed besotted by brandon etc so again that fits just as well with the N+A=J theory That was an example he could of took him to the crypts the godswood etc i was just pointing out saying he couldnt find time etc was just not true. As i said earlier ned isnt there to protect him so he needs to protect himself hence he needs to know the true danger he is potentially in. Protecting his family is a fair point, but again when ned leaves as with jon they leave his protection and what he can control, so ya maybe cat and potentially robb should of been told then 2. Its in Neds character to take jon and look after him no matter whose his mother was, i agree on that, but given jon could of looked targaryen when he grew up, and ned had no way of knowing what he would grow to look like, it makes more sense not to bring him to winterfell as a baby if R+L=J, in case he took after rhaegar. Answered this above. Again answered this aboe I kinda answered this already, i think. Kinda touched on most of this as well, regards the invested in the theory comment i didnt mean you specfically. No matter what GRRM does with it it is still a fantasy troupe and cliche which makes the point he doesnt want to have that type of cliche in his works the most obvious point against the theory. The bit about the tv show was only an interesting aside. To me the reason for ned not telling jon or indeed some of his own family about jon at the point jon joins the NW, ned goes KL,for the list of reasons iv said throughout this debate and the fact GRRM hates fantasy troupes and cliches, as well as the reasons against telling jon and his family if want to include them is weaker then the ones to tell him/them at this point in my opionion.not ti mention jon looks nothing like a targaryen has none of there traits, is enough to question the R+L=J theory, if its not for ye then thats fine too, at this stage i think its just time to give up on it BTW is there any thresd where an arguement for rob being brandon and not neds son is ?
  2. Evidence ? There actually is very little actual textual evidence that R+L=J, its more a supposition then anything else, so what you said there is plainly wrong. I said before it was his cultural heritage, and yes no matter what he deserved to know, i said that as well, and no i think its an argument against any of the jon parents theories except the one of his mother being no one of import. Reason being hes only joining the NW because he is a bastard and feels has no place in the world,no other family etc, in the ashara theory im sure asharas family would welcome jon, in the lyanna theory he deserves to know before he makes a decision he cannot come back from. Look as i said telling jon isnt telling everyone and i also gave the example of how the text proves jon could of handled it, and said how Ned should of known enough of jons character to know that,so unless someone wants to argue Ned didnt know his children atal you can not argue against that imo. Ya it would of been impossible for ned to get time alone with jon or delay hes own exit from winterfell or go a little to the wall with jon and then catch up to the procession to KL, saying was a bad time because royal court was there, is just simply wrong. Yes he gave jon skills to protect himself i agree there but jon is at best an average fighter, he is by no means arthur dayne reborn, and if somehow jons lineage was discovered it be better jon knew and wasnt blind to the threats against him. The howland reed point is a fair one, but no one goes to the neck, so danger would be less then at winterfell,where jon could of grown up looking very targaryen, unless try and argue Ned saw in the future and knew jon would not look any bit targaryen, and new he would look so much stark that could pass him off as a bastard so easy. The point with joining the NW is as i said this - there is no coming back from it - so at this point if there is anything jon doesnt know that if he new he might not go there - that is the time to tell him before made a decision he couldnt reverse. Arguements not telling jon are weak, civil war assuming jon freaks out (already showed how he wouldnt), jons safety - hes in danger anyway and if someone found out his secret hes in more danger being ignorant of it himself then of knowing. I've seen threads where people put fourth how it was morally wrong not to tell jon before he joined the NW and people debated whether it was morally wrong or right, but this type of thread assumes R+L=J, yet say maybe he didnt tell him because was nothing to tell and people freak out. As i said earlier the R+L=J theory is all supposition and has no evidence or proof, yet question it (logical to question a theory with no proof) and all people do is defend the theory, rather then look at it a diff way. Also add to it GRRM hates fantasy troupes ans cliches,wants to break the mold, a hidden prince not knowing his identity is the most cliche you can get,yet ppl ignore that fact. I know people have alot invested in the R+L=J theory, but until its proven should question it not defend it. About the TV show, dunno who has watched it or not. Its not really relevant but its interesting
  3. I said that to a mod in mail, that since R+L=J is just a theory the arguments for the other theories should have the same dedicated thread like this one, (pinned at the start like this one) so people may add to/read in same place, not have arguments for the other theories buried in the pages of this one, His reply was that there are other threads for them already (from how long ago im not sure but there buried somewhere while the R+L=J thread is pinned right at the start) and because the arguments against those theories are refuted in the R+L=J thread ( not sure how the theory can be refuted when R+L=J is just a theory to) they must be argued here. He then said he noted my opinion but that wasnt sufficient to change the forum. Now that to me seems R+L=J is held up higher then the other theories, by the forum mods, which is wrong, all theories have the same merit until one is proven correct, What i was trying to do in my original post which was called R+L≠J, was create a thread where all arguments against the theory, could be compiled, but it was locked and i was told put it here where all the diehard R+L=J people who see no other theory having merit are an instead of anyone seeing why i was saying what i was saying i was shouted down by why ned didnt this or that, which every reason they gave why ned didnt this or that had i was able to counter argue anyway. To say ned didnt tell jon for his safety and to prevent civil war etc is a very weak counter point to: why ned should of told him if was true: Because: 1. Telling jon isnt telling all westeros -and given we see how jon handles his family being wiped out it is easy see he could of handled the truth, and ned should of known enough of his character to know that because hes character didnt change enough in the time between joining the NW and that occuring (unless you claim ned was ignorant to jons character you cant refute that, a parent knows there child) 2. Jons life is in mortal danger at the wall anyway so its same as someone finding out who jon is anyway and if someone does find out who he is better jon knows so hes more careful/cautious etc instead of being blind. Also ned knows the state the watch is in, how far it has fallen etc and doesnt feel the need to tell jon even though jon is deluded to thinking its what it was 2000 years before. 3. Since they know viserys and dany exist somewhere they have jon (incase they show up trying to claim the throne ) who has a better claim then them if hes legitimate. So jon joining the watch will deny him his birthright and negate his claim, 4 GRRM dislikes fantasy troupes and clichès, cant get more cliche then a secret hidden crown prince, who many believe is also a saviour reborn in TPWWP AND/OR AA, To those 4 things saying Ned didnt tell jon because jons safety, or because a civil war might happen is a weak point. And thats all was argued against what i said. Im finished with this topic now because trying to make people with blinkers on take them off is pointess when they dont even try see why i am saying it and just shout it down because they believe the R+L=J THEORY to the point defend it instead of questioning it.
  4. Ok, finding out your family was wiped out, and finding out who you thought were your family arent infact your family in the way you thought are similiar in the sense there is a loss, the senss of loss is similiar because in both scenarios he experiences that. That is why you can parallel it, while its not the exact same its similiar enough to use. Im pretty sure tyrion told jon on the way to the wall implying previous knowledge as to the state of the watch, I dont ignore it, its just not relevant to whether ned should of told jon or not There are numerous definitions of it, i gave you the one i was using. Each one you shown there still supports my point btw, the idiom paying the price refers to an actual price, a sleepless night or gulit for lying is not paying a price, Ok first paragraph - that has no relevance whatsoever, a gulity conscious is not paying the price for your actions. 2nd - that could of been 6 months after the initial lie, 2 years, 5 years etc, so doesnt refute my point in the slightest. Actually this is what you do when you say why ned didnt tell jon, civil war etc, as i said 20 times now, telling jon isnt telling everyone, You keep changing your arguement on how cat was with jon to try and cut under the points i make, first she was miserable, then she wasnt, then she was horrible to jon then she wasnt, you change it depending on what i say, which makes it seem your only saying it to counter what i say so you dont need to examine your theory
  5. Have it in my messages from.a mod 1 - Ned should of known and probably did no enough of jons character to of known how he react in advance, thats part of parenthood, jons character didnt change in the short time he up until the point i mentioned 2 - EXACTLY - he embraces who he is, like he would of done had he been told the truth I explained that already. This just proves you dont read/remember whats said at all. I said numorous times im 99% sure R+L=J, i figured out the clues to it while reading the books, before seen anything online. I pointed out a reason why this may not be the case, Um read above..... You havent given me any information, all you've done is to try justfy Ned not telling jon the truth. While i pointed out why he should of i took a specific time, and gave several reasons why he should of at that moment and said maybe the reason he didnt tell him was because there was nothing to tell him on it, If you believe jon deserved to know nothing before made a choice (that made it impossible) for him to ever embrace his true heritage then thats fine, thats your opinion. Your entire argument for ned not telling jon is civil war and jons life in danger etc and as i pointed out telling jon isnt telling everyone in westeros, hes life is in danger anyway at the wall, etc and given how he handled his family basically wiped out bit by bit that proves he could of handled it, and Ned should of known enough of jons character to know that, given not an awful lot of time passed between those events to alter jons character enough to of changed that. Which begs the question, maybe he didnt tell him because was nothing to tell? That is a more then fair thought and more then enough to question the validity of the R+L=J.
  6. Do you deliberately misreaf what i say or what ? I said the fact how he handled his family (he knew) being wiped out proved he could of handled the truth of his identity. And that ned knowing jon character should of seen that. How you can dispute that is beyond me. Trying to say ned was ignorant to the state of the watch is not believeable, i dont have the book to hand but im sure tyrion told him about the state of the watch, so if tyrion new in kingdoms landing new the state of the watch, you try say didnt ? Refine meanings ? to experience the bad result of something you have done: That is the definition of pay the price in english oxford dictionary, for ned to have a troubled conscious over lying to people about jon is not paying the price. If you think troubled sleep and a gulty conscious is paying a price for saving his nephews life then you obviously have a different definition. That doesnt refute what i said in the slightest Lol im not down playing anything you put an over emphasis on what cat feels, another poster pointed out that cat in general wasnt nasty to jon, cant remember who, said grrm confirmed the scene where she is nasty to jon at brans bedside was a rarity rather then the norm.
  7. Ok, as i said in a different thread, jon thought the NW was full of honourable men where he could serve and find a place for himself and honour, but the NW was full of the worst people in westeros society, so the truth of that would of hit jon hard, ned didnt care enough to tell him that beforehand tho did he ? Over the years it became less about not telling jon for jon and more not telling ned for ned himself. If jon was a fisherwomans son, he should of known who his mother was long before the nw, and indeed before he joined, however joining the NW he can never leave doesnt have the same impact as if R+L=J, The other theories on jons heritage arent even allowed a thread since R+L=J is so widely accepted, so thats why focus on that. Ok read what that was in reply to, was said in reply to someone who stated ned wanted to avoid a civil war, so i showed how was willinh to risk civil war later in the story. All well an good, but as i said in another thread, when jon learns ned has been killed and rob has called his banners, jon has a choice to make, emotions running high etc, he chooses to stay at the wall. Thus proving he could handle the truth about his identity. Now i imagine ned new jon better then we did, so he should of seen that. Mortal danger is mortal danger no matter where it comes from 2 things here :. 1st you talk like telling jon is announcing it to everyone - its not. 2nd i didnt say he would be say at the wall if hes identity was revealed ygrain did. I dont need to prove R+L=J, i just pointed out why it doesnt make sense given the crux moment in jons life when he joins the NW that his identity isnt revealed to him, i have stated why and everyones counter arguement is civil wars and ned fearing for his life. Yet as i keep saying telling jon and telling all westeros is not the same thing even pointed out something that makes it seem like jon could of handled it. And another thing the burden is on you and others who believe it to prove R+L=J (which you cant) not me to disprove it. Also i was told other theories on jons parentage arent allowed there own thread and must be discussed in the R+L=J thread, (by a mod) which is very odd, R+L=J is just a theory with no actual evidence after all, which is why i say ye all assume R+L=J to the point cant see anything else, its like want any arguments against the theory to be lost in the 200 pages plus (no one will read all of)
  8. He didnt try leave again did he ? As for the rest, i assume ned would of known something of jons character ? So should of seen he could handle it, Also ned had no problem leaving him find out how far the watch had fallen only after went there, did he ? Which also would of hit jon like an anvil.
  9. That is still not paying a price, living with choices you made is what everyone has always done, living with your choices and paying a price for them is vastly different, Ned and cat seemed to have a great relationship, all in all, the one dark spot was jon. Im sure ned wanted cat to forgive him for lying to her for 14/15 years about jon rather then for believing jon was his bastard. They went on to have 4 more children so looks the issue of jon was the size of a thorn in a football pitch full of rose petals rather then a shoe in a shoebox,
  10. Telling a 14/15 year old he was the rigbtful heir to a throne (given similar circumstances as jon) in todays world would be mental. Telling jon and telling everyone aren't the same thing either you make it sound like tellling jon is the same as everyone finding out which its not. Jon has a choice while in the nights watch to leave and try avenge ned, and help rob etc or stay, he chooses to stay, and rarely even thinks of them in all truth, so i think he could of handled being told he was lyannas son via rhaegar and that he was or wasnt in fact a bastard. Given the way jon masters his emotions in the case of ned/rob above it shows he could of handled the reveal of his identity as well and not went raising armies like you imply above imo
  11. Ok, i disagree, telling a 14/15 year old in our time, would be insane, telling a 14/15 year old in westoros (medival time for us) would of been much safer, they grow up much faster (jon as a bastard grew up even faster) Also cat was wary of jon because he was "Neds bastard" and thought he was a threat in future based on that alone. Because bastards have such a bad reputation. Also Ned letting jon join the nights watch thats full of thieves rapists and murderers when jon is deluded to thinking its full of honourable men where he could be proud to serve doesnt strike me as Ned caring all that much about jon or hes safety or mental state. Also i believe who you refer to as faegon is the true aegon, i cant see jon con supporting a pretender and i cant see him supporting aegon unless some irrefutable prove he was aegon was presented to him because he seems like ned in the sense honour matters to him, and because he loved rhaegar. Ok, Ned definetly should of handled it a different way. As i said above Sayng everyone wanted to kill the targs is an overstatement as well since was an even enough sided civil war.
  12. The fact later in the book ned has no qualms telling robert the children he thinks are his are infact jamie lannisters (which would have the near the exact same result ie a civil war ) makes the arguement he didnt tell jon for the fear of starting a civil war a false idea because he was willing to do just that so robert new the truth. The argument he didnt tell jon for jons own safety is valid only up until jon is joinng the NW - because jons life is in mortal danger at the wall and ned let him take the black with not so much as an attempt to stop him. So at this poimt the argument he didnt tell jon for jons safety also becomes a false idea. Because 1. Hes going to be in danger anyway and 2. Once takes the black he renounces all claims (he may have). In my opinion the only valid reason to not tell jon at that point is 1. R+L = J isn't true, or 2. ned is so ashamed of lying to jon and fears him hating him for lying all his life. The most likely one of them to be true is R+L=J isnt true. People believe R+L=J so much they can't see anything else.
  13. I think jon con was in love with rhaegar, i dont think targaryens matter to him in the general sense, but since he was in love with rhaegar sees aegon as a way to redeem himself in rhaegars eyes as well as trying to honour him. Also i think jon con would of recieved/needed concrete proof that aegon is really aegon before agreeing to anything, and wouldnt support aegon if he had any doubts whatsoever because supporting a faegon would dishonour rhaegar the man he was in love with memory.
  14. That is similiar to what i said but i took wind as a verb in the sense of "a winding path" not as winding a clock, So my thought was path through winter or paths of winter, something along those lines
  15. He didnt pay a price for any of that did he ? A sleepless night, denyjng jon his heritage and making him miserible (which in another thresd you said he wasnt miserible i think unless i am thinking of someone else, in which case sorry), and saying he made cat miserable (whicb is an overstatement) is not paying a price for what in his eyes had the higher demand on his honour, paying a price would of been cat hating him, or jon finding the truth and hating/resenting him, neither is the case