WrathOfTinyKittens

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About WrathOfTinyKittens

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  • Birthday 04/28/1987

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  1. Bakker: Pounded In The Brain By The Great Ordeal Spoilers III

    Hmm, I remember it differently. I do not think Oinaral is a Quya - he never casts any light for them, for example, choosing to rely on the light cast by his sword in the Mere - and I also do not think he intended to die. He explicitly brings Sorweel with him in hopes that his presence would protect him from his father. He seemed to want to simply convince his father to do one final act of glory. Seems like it, yeah. Ishroi are nobles, Tsonoi are royalty. I didn't catch whether this was exclusive to Injor-Niyas or if it was true for all of erstwhile Nonman society.
  2. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    the 100 are not only blind, they are blind to their own blindness; based on the WLW POV, Yatwer did not foresee his failure
  3. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    Prologue: Momemn, p. 42 in the Nook version: Note also the very subtle foreshadowing of the earthquakes. A quick search of the Xerius scenes doesn't make any hint about Chorae in the ceilings, but it's totally possible I missed it. Also, while looking for the Chorae quote, in the first Momemn chapter, the WLW pretty much tells us exactly what is going to happen, and I didn't catch it at the time nor remember it until just now:
  4. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    Ok, it's like this: Kelmomas is following the WLW around the ruined palace. On the way to the throne room, Esmi sees the WLW and follows him to the throne room, not knowing that Kelmomas is following. She finds Kellhus waiting in the Audience Hall, and he seems to discern that she wants herself, him, or both dead. Then we switch to the WLW's POV, and he sees himself sneak in behind Esmi, hide next to a column, and take advantage of an earthquake caused by Yatwer - he thinks to himself "Mother claps the rug of the world..." and "Mother stamps her foot upon the earth" - to kill Kellhus. There is a little bit of fuckery here, because the WLW POV makes it sound like a Chorae just spontaneously appears, but actually it is embedded in the ceiling, as mentioned by Esmi earlier in the book. Kellhus is barely able to dodge the Chorae, but the WLW's sword pierces his throat - not his heart, as was predicted in earlier books - and he dies. Esmi is not seen to be killed. However, none of that actually happened. Kelmomas, in an effort to aid the WLW, calls out to distract Kellhus, and breaks the causal chain of the Unerring Grace. Kellhus moves to the throne, the earthquake strikes, and the WLW is crushed beneath a collapsing prayer tower. There's no indication as to whether Esmi lives or dies. The tower is written to have struck just where Kellhus was standing, but he had moved away from Esmi a moment before. It is plausible that when he stepped back, he moved back far enough that the collapse didn't kill her. Personally, I think that Bakker would be monumentally dumb to have her die without so much as a mention, especially since it all happens from Kelmomas' POV, and Esmi is more or less the only thing he cares about.
  5. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    Bakker and trees could be its own set of threads. There is a massive amount of symbolism tied up in trees in both trilogies. In this particular case, I just interpreted it as a callback to the spirit of Kuniuri, how they fought and resisted, but that's not based on anything in particular.
  6. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    Goddammit I hate the new quote function. I find it completely impossible to add anything after the quote. In any case, I meant to say that Kellhus then preps Proyas to lead in his absence, a process he had begun in WLW. I think that Kellhus never intended to return to the NE until he sees what happens in Momemn in WLW and realizes the effect it has on him. Also, something else that just occurred to me. Kellhus orders Proyas to leave behind anyone who is showing signs of radiation sickness, despite the fact that some 20,000 of the Scalded are still fit enough to march and possibly fight. It seems obvious now that Kellhus does this because those men are not fit to be eaten...
  7. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    Chapter 1, p 56 in the Nook version:
  8. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    At the battle at the port in TTT, we see from Conphas' POV that Cnaiur is literally possessed by Gilgaol, to the point where he physically changes shape. Esmi died in the WLW's POV, which turns out to not be true. We do not know if she actually died. There was no advantage to Kell by allowing them to exist and conquer/destroy the New Empire. We see in his POV that he intentionally discarded the NE and only decided to return later. Edit: shit, board ate like half of what I wrote. oh well.
  9. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    Yeah, 3 is close to my interpretation as well. Allowing the NG to be summoned to unify humanity is too risky for a Dunyain as a first plan. It does, however, make a great fall-back plan if the Ordeal is destroyed. However, that said, I don't think Kellhus is abandoning the Ordeal as a lost cause. He tells us pretty clearly that the destruction of the Empire was anticipated but that his visceral reaction to it - his heart being destroyed - was not. I honestly think he returned to the Empire to save it for emotional, rather than logical, reasons (possibly abetted by eating the Sranc). I just don't think it makes any sense that he is deliberately sacrificing the Ordeal (which also entails sacrificing the Empire, as his POV tells us) unless his goal is to either become the No-God himself or to aid the Consult in resurrecting it. Another point regarding Whale Mothers and "normal" women among the Dunyain: when Kellhus meets the trapper, he is able to discern the man's devotion to his dead wife. If the only women Kellhus had ever been exposed to were the Whale Mothers, I have a hard time believing that he would be able to so unerringly understand the concept. Especially since this is before his encounter with Mekeritrig, so he is still pure Dunyain/empiricist at this point. That kind of raises another question, though, which runs through the whole series. The Dunyain practice mastering emotions and their expressions, but beyond the children (who we know are already born with stunted emotional capacity), who are they able to practice this on? How are they able to observe the effects of emotions outside of the Defectives in the face room? I would contend that there was a whole secondary Dunyain society composed of Defectives at Ishual. We get confirmation of this - sort of - in TGO. On p. 220: So we know they are stratified into classes. So I think that these Defectives provide them not only with the raw materials they use, but also "field experience" for their reading of faces. I know it's a stretch, but what else is this thread for?
  10. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    *shrug* I'm just speculating based on there only being a dozen of the mothers and Kellhus' ability to create two "normal" daughters. Does the text state outright that all their female offspring resemble the mothers? I do not remember that, but that doesn't really mean anything
  11. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    I don't think it does, though, because only the whale mothers are mothers. The other women are Defectives and not considered people at all by the Dunyain.
  12. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    My guess is that most Dunyain women are not whale mothers and are probably considered Defectives and therefore put to work or used as subjects for Neuropuncture or whatever. Can I just say that I was very disappointed by the direction Dunyain society took with women? Considering how readily Kellhus legitimized witchcraft, I was hoping that we would discover that Dunyain society was egalitarian.
  13. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    Not that I doubt you, but where are you getting the ages for them? The appendix and the wiki don't list dates for those three.
  14. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    Ok, I'm glad you found another reference for Proyas. That makes everything make much more sense. If Akka is around Cnaiur's age then I think it all works. You can be in your 60s and still pretty fit, much more difficult in your 80s And yeah, I know the Qirri is to help his endurance, but if he were in his 70s or 80s then he wouldn't have been able to keep up pre-Qirri either.
  15. Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

    Interestingly, the glossary in TTT doesn't give us birth years for either, but we can estimate. - Proyas: Was a child under Akka's tutelage. Is not yet King and not yet (IIRC) married during the First Holy War. I would've put his age around late 20s, meaning that he'd be in his 40s or 50s in AE, but he also seems to be of an age with Saubon, who is 43 as of the Battle of Caraskand. So anywhere from 40s to early 60s is plausible. - Cnaiur was an adolescent when Moe came through in about 4080, seemingly a bit older than Saubon. So he has to be in his late 60s or early 70s. Ugh, this is actually pretty ridiculous, because Akka has to be, at a minimum, 20 years older than Proyas, which means that either Proyas is much younger than Saubon or that Akka is older than shit during the second trilogy, old enough that it's completely implausible that he is physically able to keep up with the Skin-Eaters (if it wasn't already)