Waters Gate

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About Waters Gate

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  1. Has anyone ever contemplated how Planetos would look like if it could continue to evolve with dragons around, like say well into the industrial revolution? Dragons have huge potential for industrialization, but how does that relate to evolution in the books? Perhaps it's arguable that the presence of dragons stunts technological evolution in Planetos for the reason that Dragons become to prominent in being managed, studied and employed by the elite. Too easy a tool in fact that humanity looses some of the "alternative ideas" Westeros appears for all intents and purposes technologically stagnant over a fairly long timespan. People in the books have artefacts they could not even reproduce. There appears to be few construction or dynamics in science and socially the continent is predominantly gripped by serfdom with some nobles playing some games above their heads. Essos and other continents might holds some innovations (for example the ocean going ships of the summer islands) but were not exactly in the age of exploration yet and noone seems to have heard of gunpowder so far. If ever there was an apparently more advanced civilization, then it obviously must be Valyria, they certainly left legends and artifacts. The thing about the Valyrian advancement in it's time though seems that it was all very "dragon centered". The Valyrians used their dragons to build their empire, and then build roads and constructions in their empire which were of a superior quality. It's perhaps not at all surprizing that dragons would be very usefull in construction though, perhaps just arguable that if you had dragons you simply would be capable to build better things easier. Perhaps they were just as important in forging valyrian steel? Perhaps it's even so that in most area's you would want to innovate in this "era", that youre sollution would become all to easily: dragons! Need to explore? Some Valyrian lady tried to explore Sothorys with a dragon. Need more firepower in warfare? Yeah, dragons! Need more production out of youre steel furnaces? Dragons! Need some source of power, mechanical or energy for steam power? Dragons! Want to invent something that allows humans to fly? No need, we have dragons. No need for the dragon elite to develop cannons, guns, ships that can explore oceans, or dream about the possibilety of flight. Looking at Valyrian society, it seems apparent that the maintance cost of dragons must have been a fair sum. Quite posibly taxes on the empire were used for a large part to just maintain more dragons. Quite possibly you had a society that was very much serfdom too with most of it's wealth directed to Valyria itself. With other words, it might be questioned to what extend the persuit of dragons creates a society where people will have plenty of time to innovate, quite possibly the only ones with time left to innovate are the dragonlords and the are more likely to delve into anything dragon related and the potential arcane associations with them, if only for the reason that for the dragonlords atleast the dragons solve much of the problems that they would require innovation for, it's just that the dragons can only serve an elite and it never becomes widespread enough.
  2. Yeah thats exactly the answer i was looking for, thx.
  3. I am delving into the crackpot here, i'm just wondering if it is "technicly possible". When was Sansa conceived? Afaik Jon Snow and Rob Stark were about the same age, so i Rob was conceived and born aroudn the time of Roberts rebellion. With Sansa following Rob as the next kid, i guess that there is the possibillety that the moment of conception must have been around the period of Robberts rebellion or then perhaps "Just when Ned had returned home". I wondered if there was a timeframe here upon which LF could have been at winterfell and have conceived Sansa while Ned was out to fight? Why i wonder this? Its hard to understand Littlefingers motivations and especially goals going forward. What exactly does LF want, what would he want with Sansa? One can consider love, but it doesn't make easy sense with LF. For Sansa to be his daughter, that might explain to some extend why he would be trying to further her interrests opposed to other Stark claimants to the North. Edit: wrong subforum though
  4. I had this theory a while back and i don't know how i came up with it, but the idea was that stone sphinxes were being used as incubators. Afaik the Targaryans had some special sphinxes themselfs.
  5. Well, the problem with making plans to attack youre enemy when he's relativly weakened (which i think was a wise and often succesfull move in that time) is that it boils down to an opportunity strike that is always going to be impossible to measure in advance. Typicly if you want to defeat a vastly stronger rival then waiting for the opportune moment while gathering strenght in the background is the way forward. The weight of the actual number of men you can get really depends on how much youre rival weakens himself, but as you wait all you can do is try to gather as many as possible and hope that the strength of youre rivals forces falls below that. Timing is rather important in such a strategy, it can be nervewrecking i gather, you have to wait till potential opposing forces have sufficiently weakened themselfs yet not so long that there is an eventual victor among them, and then find the truly optimal timing to step in. Still ... All Doran needs to do to persue this tactic is to hoard resources and train men while waiting. I get that under such circumstances one could perhaps pull up a great and still functional levy. In the meantime he needs to talk to various smaller and bigger Westerosi lords and perhaps use gold to sway them to his side, and look out for all pontential added strenght that could be gotten from elsewhere. For the fact that he chooses to "use a targaryan banner", something which logicly can give him supporters within Westeros and likely will him eitherway, he can only hope that whatever Targaryan claimant he gets behind at the opportune moment can also bring an army with him. As to Dany, yes she sure can bring out an army, a big one with dragons too, it must be said that Doran perhaps had not expected a Claimant of such strenght.
  6. The 40K might refer to what they might get with additional levy's, sellswords and perhaps loyalist volunteers, whereas i presume that the 15K are the more regular kind of infantry that the lords keep around. One wonder what kind of war chest Doran would have kept for his plan.
  7. If Doran wants to bring back the Targaryans after Robert's Rebellion, then logicly he has to ask himself with what army's? His own force is small relative to the rest of the kingdom, and whatever extra that could have been brought from across the narrow sea would have been insufficient to tilt that balance under normal circusmtances. So Doran either needs Westeros to be weakened by internal conflict or needs other allies within Westeros. For what regards weakening Westeros i guess people rellied on Varys though it was LF who really gave the strategic nudge. As to finding allies within Westeros, i guess Doran could have done better?
  8. as to 4: Thats unlikely, as a more advanced culture woud likely spread out for the sake of trade and aquiring goods not native to it with the means they have. as to 5: Quite possible. It's an option in another thread where we have been discussing "strange foodstuffs" that are present in Westeros, more specificly stuff that in our history was native to the America's and only arrived in Europe after colonization, such goods being for example Turkey's and Pumpkins. There is a possibillety that those goods were perhaps introduced to Westeros by a ocean going civilization that has vanished since.
  9. Not so crazy, depends on how you look at it. I will rewrite youre theory as "a more modern civilization existed in the past that got wiped by a cataclysmic event", for reasons that a nuclear holocoast is rather specific with it's own intricate results whereas trough history weve seen plenty of cataclysmic events ending civilizations. It could be a meteorite, or the arrivel of some natural ice age, or perhaps the erruption of a super volcano, frankly there are plenty of possibilety's to get the same result. Though i guess we could question what sort of cultivation or fauna would survive such an event. Obviously if you have a cataclysmic event that ends modern civilization then a likely factor would have been the failing of crops and huge starvation, as often happens in such cases. What i don't know is why only some new world goods would survive to remain while others wouldn't.
  10. When considering modern or "technoligical" materials such as plastics are then plastics actually seem perhaps the least likely material out of all the option. Plastics afcourse come in many forms and property's which can be used depending on function. Some ould be automaticly excluded for not having propperty's that are equal to this black stone, for example some plastics only come as translucent like the PET we make bottle's from. The most limiting factor i guess about plastics and relevant in this case is their melting temperature, most plastics will melt well under 100 degrees celciums and only few plastics can handle more. This basicly means that the hightowers base if made of plastic could be melted away and likely would be reasonably flammable too, not exactly a great propperty for a plastic. In terms of modern materials, especially when looking towards the future, my guess would rather be some advanced material based on carbon or perhaps graphene. Carbon has potential as a future technoligical material if only because carbon is so plentifull in our world and thus would form a great resource for megaconstructions, carbon has many interresting propperty's and oil is basicly made of carbon too so that would fit with oily stone.
  11. Climate is no indication for what will grow there nativly. The climate of Britttain is rather similar to that of say Argentina, South Africa and Austrialia, but rest asure that the fauna and flora is very different. Difference's in fauna and flora are mainly there it seems due to distance and sepperate evolution. There is a reason why Darwin did most of his studies on very remote islands with peculiar fauna and flora. Overall, the Fauna and Flora of Weseros seems to be very simmilar to western Europe. Intristicly from a litterary perspective there should be no issue with potatoes being native to Westeros as one can argue that this world is just different in that way, however Grrm didn't write Westeros nessecarily as something that contained a bit of everything, its quite a realistic western Europe in terms of foodstuffs safe from some oddity's. Thats the thing with GRRM, he actually goes in detail enough to paint a relative realistic picture of what Westerosi would be eating including with some exotic stuff being "exotic" tradegoods like spices and silk. And then there are a few things perhaps out of place. Mind, the dragons might be something of an explenation of how certain things might eventually wind down in westeros, as birds are a way in which a lot of seeds get transported arund the world, though granted the dragons are carnivore's. It might just stick to them perhaps, dragons have been used for long travel like the Valyrian women who went to explore Sotherys. A small list of what goods seem to be "out of place" for now corn: as discussed here its quite possible but can also be a misunderstanding rice, as an exotic good Pumpkins and certain squirrels Now what to do with this info? Genneraly i would agree that "where GRRM introduces an oddity where he is otherwise realistic, it leaves questions" As of the goods discussed, you might be right that while potatoes feature in the show that GRRM wouldn't put it in the books, and that what he calls corn is just a general name for staple goods. It does beg the question for the grain if he had mentioned them toghether with grain and wheat as someone remarked here. For exotic goods like rice, silk or spices we can simply argue that it is traded from the east and we know there is an extensive trade network between Westeros and the east. Credit to Seawatch though for remarking pumpkins as used in Arya's pumpkin soup, because the pumpkin is truly native to North America. That seems to be atleast one foodstuff used by GRRM in the books that theoreticly could not exist in Westeros if Westeros represented medieval western Europe, whereas most foodstuffs find in the books look rather very logical for the area and there is a lack of many foodstuffs that would seem illogical in that western Eurpe setting like say Chocolate, tobacco, coconuts etc. Now to question: what to do with this, especilly the pumpkin then? There are various possibillety's afcourse. The simple one would typically be "GRRM made an error", though granted we wouldn't expect it so much from him when he takes apparent care of what sort of stuff he mentions. Second possibilety is that there is no error, the pumpkin is there nativly for some reason either for a reason or no perculiar reason. It begs the question why Arya must make here weasel soup with pumpkins then as there should be plenty of alternative. The third possibilety is that its not native to Weseros but it's there and that has a purpose. GRRM likes to hint people with little details and perhaps that is one of them. The problem afcourse is that it's blurry as to what point GRRM could try to make with it for the sake of the Story. In general, What Westerosi have nativly and otherwise get from somewhere else would more show the kind of trade relations and contacts between civilizations that exist in the books. The presence of certain goods might indicate that the world is far larger and more poppulated than what we get from the map, but again that notion wouldn't be particulary farfetched. So i'm left to ask people the question here, specificly for what relate's the Pumpkins that are native to North America. Did Grrm make an error, or was that deliberate and with a reason? If there is a underlying hint, then i guess the more logical one would be for me that Westeros is connected to "the america's" trough the north, as that would present a route by which the Pumpkin could arrive in Westeros.
  12. Even in real life we wouldn't be able to, some volcanic erruption happens and we endure it too, as to particle's in the atmosphere we can only try not to add to much ourselfs. Trees clean up aerial pollution to some extend, but i don't think you can weirwood yourself out of this one, though there is some magic there and the iron islands used to have an ygdrasil by lore. Alternativly atleast the dragons can get "up there" and maybe do something magical? Something something sacrifice? Sounds quite farfetched. I have thought about the relation of "lightbringer" and the end of the long night a lot before. Crucially to me is that "lightbringer" is called just that and not "other slayer". lightbringer could always be somethign abstract rather than a literal flaming sword, that it would be usefull against the others seems logical at first but it doesn't have to be it's main function, indeed i always considered it's function primarily to be "to bring light" in darkness. We could have gotten the impression that Dawn might have automaticly come when the others were defeated, as if winter came and went with them. When the explenation would just have been "magic" like that, there would hardly have been much of a reason to build more legend around it, including the comet and especially in regards to "darkness". At the very least there seems to be plenty of religious aspects to it with the great other and the lord of Light who in turn seem to have a connection to astronomical elements. As to astronomical ellements i have done some research in there aswell and i think there is a lot of value in it. It's not so much about astronomical science though rather than astronomical religion. The stars and planets are part of many religious pantheons in this world as it was in ours, and there are legends regarding astral objects that have some practical effect in the real world. A very good example of this is the Aztecs and the legend of Quetzalcotl. I presume LML knows the legend and it's connections to the books given such names like the "dawnstar" (venus) and the practical real life event of Hernan Cortez being (by legend) seen as this legendary "god who would return from the east". The meat of this then seem to be about comparing historical interpretations of astronomical events to how Planetosi interpret theirs, and then the real life events that followed upon it. So one perception i had was that lightbringer might be something that brings about astronomical chances, though more in a magic than science sort of way, as if there had been a fight going on between gods among the stars and that lightbringer had to set things right. In that sense the last line of "left a crack on the face of the moon" in the AA legend had always been an interresting one as to equate the function of lightbringer to something that would bring about astronomical changes. So was the usage of things like "30 days and 30 nights", the first could have hinted to the same moon. Most notobly when going this route the most likely thing for lightbringer to be would be a comet, and the red comet sure was candidate for a "red flaming sword" too. (too make things a bit complicated) Another alternative for me would be that Lightbringer is something that brings light/heat to an area around it, an area large enough to support farming during the long night and to ward of others from entering that zone. Lightbringer then wouldn't nessecarily bring about dawn rather than allow humans to survive until dawn arrives and to use dawn as a time to throw the others back to the north. That would work with the comet, but then lightbringer might not be so much a litteral flaming swords rather than a heat/energy source. What would be rather weird would be to see humans to defeat the others (perhaps with help of Azor Ahai) just to find out that it doesn't bring about Dawn and they still have to wait a few gennerations before the atmospheric dust/the long night to go away. You recognise that problem, it's just hard to make a judgement in regards to comets and the purpose they serve. You know the story of how the bloodstone Emperor came to worship a mysterious stone that had fell from the sky, appearing to make that meteor an magical entity rather than just a rock. A metor inpact is an "option". But perhaps another option is that the meteor has a function in the story now as a object of magic currently being used by the Cotf.
  13. I won't be the only one who has ever wondered what the nature of ligthbringer is. Not so much in the sense in what it exactly is, but what it eactly does to "bring light". The threat that is the long night for a large part seems to be about the others, but otoh it's also about a genneration long winter and perhaps darkness too. The latter can certainly be the cause of a meteor inpact, but are the others then waiting for those things to drop to commence their invasions? Perhaps they see it comming, a meteor has been visible for a while, not sure about the timing in regard to the appearence of the others and the meteor though, but they could have spotted it earlier perhaps. But then, is it lightbringers function to bring a sollution to a cataclysimic meteor inpact? One can understand Lightbringer as a weapon against the others, but also against climate change? Though an option i have considered to the nature of lightbringer is that it would create a safe area around which humans could survive in such a climate change scenario, being less a sword and more a device that allows humans to survive trough the long night, i have considered the hightower for that function before. Don't get me wrong, i think this thread is great work and i feel somewhat compelled to believe that a meteor did fall on the gods eye, but i'm not sure if the long night resulted from that. Crucially, how does lightbringer and Azor Ahai solve the issue of a long winter caused by a meteorite rather than so much being a device against the others?
  14. Perhaps there is more to it than this. In braavos for ex. there is a moon based religion apparently with the temple of the moonsingers, Braavos is not too far of the Vale or Andalos where the Vale Andals came from.
  15. How does Areo Hotah though get possesion of such an exceptional weapon as he has? That case seems far more needy for some inquiry. Area hotah is a rather low tier man, a mere bodyguard in terms of rank, connected to a nice court sure given his quality's, but one can wonder why he even choose the job of bodyguard if he could have sold that blade for a load of money. Areo hotah's weapon possibly has even more valyrian steel in it than the swords, Who's he going to leave this weapon when he dies? And how came that odd weapon come to be? Did a dragonlord order such a weapon for himself? I can believe the weapon is a functional one for sure given the propperty's of Valyrian steel, but i wonder if there is more to that thing than just being a weapon. I see no reason from the deviation from sword given the rarity of the material. Axes/Polearms certainly have their use but how would a axemen/pikemen come to have a valyrian blade? You would think the Valyrian blades would go to people who won't be positioned in such a role in the front line, rather on the battlefield valyrian blades would be more wielded by lords for protection or champions in combat who more likely would choose sword? Or caggo the corpsekiller. Some Dothraki sellsword who owns a Valyrian steel arakh, beats me how that weapon ever came to be. That some random Dothraki would rahter has his Valyrian steel blade in the form of an Arakh one can get, but you wouldn't expect a Valyrian wanting to make that one, or dothraki having the skill to reforge it. I do wonder if some of these blades might have magical propperty's that make them more than just a weapon. When valyrian steel doesn't come in the form of a weapon then it's often going to be a magic item, maybe the combo could exist too.