The Dragon Demands

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About The Dragon Demands

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    Landed Knight
  • Birthday 11/05/1985

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    I'm an Administrator on the Game of Thrones Wiki, devoted to the TV show (which interlinks with A Wiki Of Ice and Fire).

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  1. Major question I just realized: Regarding the, uh....return of the priest-king Lodos, launching a rebellion on Old Wyk in the beginning of Aenys's reign: If he claimed to be the same guy as the Lodos who walked into the sea during the Conquest ("to take counsel with my father, the Drowned God").....why is he formally styled "Lodos, Second of His Name" in this text? Surely, he didn't call himself that. I would assume it's what the maesters call him in later centuries.
  2. Ah, good, I'll stop asking...
  3. My conclusion is still that the rest of Westeros, Starks included, draw the line between full uncle marriage and half-uncle marriage, as their definition of what constitutes "incest". Real-life societies have examples of specifically this distinction.
  4. From my graduate-level medieval history courses - particularly "The Development of the Family and Marriage in Europe" by Jack Goody - there used to be a lot of discourse that "the Catholic Church set about asserting its right to enforce consanguinity laws regarding incest, saying who could and could not be married, as a sinister plot to assume political control over all of Europe". Not just incest, but also discouraging polygamy....which was actually fairly common in the early centuries after the Germanic invasions, i.e. early Frankish kings circa 500-1000 often DID take multiple wives, sometimes even cousins or sisters from the same family (to ensure their legal claim to their lands etc.) BUT, over time, more modern scholarship concluded this was silly: the Catholic Church never had that level of power and coordination, even if it wanted to. Rather, the reason the Catholic Church (in say the 700's) argued against incestuous marriages (like 1st cousins) and polygamy (you married your wife's sister too or her cousin) was probably much more prosaic: It led to constant civil wars, and the Church was honestly just trying to stabilize the political order as best it could. Not some vast conspiracy to establish a Church-dominated continent-spanning government (things were in chaos, they were never remotely that powerful). Just, practically, logically....why would the local bishop be okay with the local lord being polygamously married to two women who were cousins to each other? This INEVITABLY would lead to a succession conflict between their rival children. And who wants a civil war? So "polygamy is bad because it will lead to succession wars" seems like an issue that would logically arise with the Faith of the Seven in Westeros. ....which leads me to wonder just now......could THIS be one of the things that fueled the constant internal feuds among the 40 dragonrider families that ruled the Valyrian Freehold? Why it took them over 4,000 years after conquering the Ghiscari Empire to move on to conquering the Rhoynar to the west? Heck, even the Rhoynish Wars dragged on 250 years...because the dragonriders always left after fighting off Rhoynish offensives, to go back to dealing with their internal feuds back home. Yeah there were internal factions in the Roman Republic and such....but incest and polygamous marriage...probably only aggravated the situation. I hope Gyldayn explains more on that.
  5. (ack, typo, I was already going to fix that) ...er...actually, in context, it says: "Lord Velaryon of Driftmark advised Maegor to send for his niece Princess Rhaena, his brother’s daughter and the widow of his brother’s son,"... Sorry, sorry, the council scene suggesting the "Black Brides" only refers to Rhaena as *Maegor's* niece, without specifying relation of this "Lord Velaryon" to Rhaena.
  6. Thanks, I was confused by this. Okay, so Alyssa Velaryon was daughter of Aethan Velaryon, thus Rhaena is Aethan's niece....possible that Aethan was succeeded by a younger brother (thus still "niece") but Alyssa is mentioned as having brothers who would have succeeded Aethan.... Thanks for checking. It's nice to feel useful
  7. Excellent work, Rhaenys. I'm sorry, I'm so confused by this. Great. Just to absolutely confirm this: was the High Septon in 25 AC, stated to be Ceryse's maternal uncle, the same one who launched the Faith Militant uprising in 41-42 AC? I mean it's a bit odd for there to be "six" High Septons during Aegon I's reign, but the last one ruled 20 years.....though not unprecedented, given how wacky Papal succession has been in real life (some holding office only one year, then you get like John Paul II, who held office for 27 years.
  8. Major question for Elio: Why does TWOIAF specify that "Lord Daemon Velaryon" was the first major lord to openly declare against Maegor, after which the rest of the Great Houses followed in rapid succession...but TSotD only calls him "Lord Velaryon? (Alyssa's father Aethan died somehow before this) You've speculated in this thread that Dozois was working off the same early draft notes you first received when working on TWOIAF ( he chose Rogar while you chose Robar because they're used inconsistently, etc.) So what I'm asking is about your "process" working on TWOIAF: Was "Daemon" Velaryon added in a later version of this GRRM gave you that Dozois didn't get? Or were parts of this edited for space? Or, alternatively, did you know Alyssa's uncle who succeeded Aethan is named "Daemon" from some unreleased family tree? ...I don't want you to share unreleased info I just want to clarify if this is a "known unknown" or an "unknown unknown". There are things GRRM never told you (what happened to the dragons who survived the Dance, for example) but then there's "we know, but won't say publicly because it hasn't been released". Because the Velaryon family tree is going to be a real quagmire for the wiki development, ack, so this is a major point on the "to do" list. There's always another Velaryon floating around, amirite? But the question is: if Dozois was working off the same first draft you were when you wrote TWOIAF based on it, why does your version give the full name "Daemon Velaryon" when his earlier version does not? Separate question: As Lord Varys linked: Was the High Septon Ceryse's paternal or maternal uncle? Was he Manfred Hightower's son, or Manfred's goodbrother-by-law? We'll need to figure this out when making the Hightower family tree on the wiki. From that other reference to Manfred it sounds like the High Septon is Morgan and Martyn's brother. Please clarify.
  9. Why the Arya versus Sansa Winterfell storyline failed in Season 7
  10. They ALL have names before they are elected! It is forbidden for Gyldayn to publish it like this! (Fire and Blood will need to correct this)
  11. The new puppet High Septon that Maegor replaced the Hightower one with...was... (goes apoplectic with unbridled rage) This isn't the TV show. High Septons *do not* have names. It is forbidden to record them. Before or after their ascension. This is ungodly, ungodly I say!
  12. Unanswered questions prompted by The Sons of the Dragon: How did Quicksilver get to Aegon in the westerlands? Why do they call Quicksilver by female pronouns? Is this a casual mistake? (text used interchangeable ones for Caraxes) It states that the Faith of the Seven, prior to Maegor, held it's own ecclesiastical courts and had its own military (we knew all that)...and also that its wealth and lands were exempt from taxation. This was kind of a big issue in the real Middle Ages (Henry VIII dissolving the monasteries, etc.) Did they retain such taxation rights after the uprising? The real Middle Ages had "episcopal counties" in a way that we never really saw in Westeros (i.e the Bishop of Rheims was a powerful feudal lord. This would be like...controlling territory on a map like a Caswell or a Bracken). "Some said Maegor ranked behind the daughters too". What the heck where the inheritance laws that Aegon the Conqueror tried to set? He generally standardized "Andal law" throughout the Seven Kingdoms (daughters after sons, but a daughter ahead of a younger uncle). But did he intend the royal family to be different? (as it later was...) They say Jaehaerys "chose the male line"...fools. Aemon's daughter Rhaenys WAS the heir under Andal law. Prioritizing direct male line was a change. For that matter, it's kind of absurd for "Andal law" to be any more real than "Salic law" (haha) - a uniform inheritance law across an entire continent? Plausible after the Targaryens explicitly unified it and standardized the inheritance law. But before that? These Maesters are just reading their own biases backwards ("knights and trials as we had in Andalos of old" -- how do you know that?! How do you know they even had those social structures back then?! Argh.)-------------------------What was Valyrian inheritance law? It seems they dodged the issue by just marrying a first-born daughter to the firstborn son (Visenya and Aegon "by tradition") -----So did anyone really know what inheritance law Aegon "set" for the new royal dynasty? It seems kind of a polite fiction given how many disagreed over it. What noble House was Horys Hill a bastard from? Did Tyanna poison Visenya? Was "Master of Whisperers" actually an official office at this point in time? For "head spymaster"? Or was Tyanna just called "mistress of whisperers" and the name kind of stuck for the next office? (the council wasn't standardized until Jaehaerys). How did the office of Grand Maester get established? Is he "the leader" over the Conclave? Seems more like "special master to the new Targaryen kings" - in which case....I guess it was established before Aegon I's death? We hear almost nothing about the Free Cities in this time; why did they think Tyrosh and Volantis were probably destinations for Alyssa Velaryon? Literally the only other scant mentions are that the last Grand Maester wisely fled to Pentos rather than face Maegor (why? Doesn't Maegor have contacts there? Or did they turn on him after killing Tyanna? Echoes of Daemon's era when Pentos was the Targaryens' home away from home, foreign but not too foreign). And of course a one-off mention that Iron Bank of Braavos representatives wrote back that the High Septon had become king in all but name. Which one is the "Great Fork" of the Blackwater? Gods Eye or Stoney Sept? Westerlands chapter of WOIAF says that the most important Houses at the royal court in the first century or so were Velaryon, Baratheon, Tully, Hightower - all this makes sense - ...and Arryn. Why Arryn? Well, maybe due to intermarriage, Aemma Aeryn and so forth. Maybe that came later, after Maegor's time. Who was actually ruling House Tully at this point? No named characters are mentioned despite their relative amount of activity in the wars. So Lyman Lannister's wife was named...Jocasta? Why is Ser Joffrey Doggett called "the Red Dog of the Hills"? There's no red dog in their heraldry. Leading up to the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye, it's said that Maegor-loyalists advancing from the south are Rowan, Merryweather, and Caswell. At the actual battle, however, only Merryweather and Caswell are mentioned - where was Rowan? Then it says that in the next phase of the war the remaining rebels resorted to brutal assassinations, among them Lord Merryweather, and also Lord Rowan's son and heir. Near the end, however, it says that when the Poor Fellows are on the march for the final time, Oakheart and "Rowan" ride out with their levies...to join their strength to his. Was this still the same Lord Rowan, who fought for Maegor against Prince Aegon? And whose own son was assassinated? WAS Poxy Jeyne Poore actually a witch of some kind? That is, Old Gods powers...warg, greensight. Almost like a proto-Jenny of Oldstones? Stormlands had a lot of Children of the Forest holdouts longer than most (albeit thousands of years before). Literally the only surnames I encountered we never saw before were "William Whistler" and "Poxy Jeyne Poore". Are these actual surnames from real families? Or are they just descriptors like "Lem Lemoncloak"? What happened to Aethan Velaryon? By 46 AC, "Lord Velaryon" suggests that Maegor marry again to his "niece" Rhaena...Aethan was her grandfather, Alyssa Velaryon her mother so....Aethan's son? In which case, did he just die naturally or did he run afoul of Maegor? (I think that would have been mentioned) EDIT: TWOIAF's Maegor chapter specifies that "Lord Daemon Velaryon" is the one that openly declared against Maegor at the end. "Elinor Costayne scratched the king’s back to bloody ribbons as they coupled".....I can't tell in this context....does that mean she was fighting him or that she was enjoying it? I THOUGHT she was fighting him, but she'd do a lot more than just claw at him (sorry I keep thinking of that phrase "clawed at your back" from Arthur Miller's "The Crucible" referring to passionate sex with that harlot). Why don't we hear of either side attempting to use wildfire on the battlefield? In fact, we never really did even before this in the Conquest. Is this sort of just...implied? (I assume they use "burning pitch" in catapults and just don't mention it explicitly). Why didn't Dorne try to invade again to take advantage of the chaos of Aenys's defeat? For some time the High Septon still held Oldtown and other territories even after the Great Fork of the Blackwater. We only hear rumblings of them massing in the mountain passes when Maegor is clearly LOSING after Jaehaerys is declared king. Did the Freys side with Prince Aegon opportunistically our were they legitimately being brave this time? Normally they'd sit out any conflict, and Prince Aegon actually had the odds stacked against him from the beginning. It couldn't have been a case of backing a winner. Or...maybe just because the Tullys were very pro-Maegor at that point? ....Did Wat the Hewer ever actually....die? Maegor kept him alive for his wedding then no mention is made of him again.
  13. .....oh....major realization: Different societies had different limits on degrees of incest/consanguinity at different points in history - at times, almost arbitrary (a third cousin is okay but a fourth cousin is a vile sin, but in a different century it's second cousins, etc.). A major real life example is that Leonidas of Sparta, who led the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, was married to Gorgo...his own half-niece (who you may recall was played by Lena Headey in the live-action 2007 movie). Ancient Greek historians specifically pointed out that the Spartans officially considered marriage to a full niece to be incest, but *did not* consider marriage to a half-niece to be incest. They considered this a big distinction. The two cited are Serena and Sansa Stark, the two daughters of Rickon son of Cregan. BOTH of them married *half*-uncles. Similarly, Maegor wanted to marry his half-niece. Maybe it was just seen as a little too reminiscent of brother-sister incest...in short, it would be "pushing it"...so Aegon backed down and said no rather than anger the Faith.
  14. I checked the trees but can't find what you're talking about; specifically which Starks are you referring to?
  15. Yeah there's a lot on all that specifically.