The Dragon Demands

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About The Dragon Demands

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  • Birthday 11/05/1985

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    I'm an Administrator on the Game of Thrones Wiki, devoted to the TV show (which interlinks with A Wiki Of Ice and Fire).

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  1. .....I'd personal choose to treat "Hyrkoon" as a culture page, like the "Dothraki" page....and "Patrimony of Hyrkoon" (full name) referring to the specific political entity (comparable to "Dothraki Sea").
  2. Proceeds to write multi-paragraph response. (grins then sighs) You're absolutely right, it isn't a fruitful topic to speculate about. I know it's grasping at straws. But dang it, like me, you've got the monkey on your back to speculate! Excellent list of evidence, m'lord. Syrax and Seasmoke? I thought Seasmoke know... Well, I actually thought they implied Syrax and Vhagar may have mated, when Rhaenyra and Laena were friends and "often flew together". Odd that compared to the other dragons, Syrax is the only one repeatedly stated to be churning out multiple clutches of eggs, with some frequency. ****In case you haven't seen the update to the wiki-article, Lord Varys, GRRM recently confirmed to Elio that he's writing an entirely new chapter for Fire and Blood to "round out" the long reign of Jaehaerys I - when many of these were hatched. Elio also let it slip that there was another separate essay-chapter for the World Book, "the Peace of the Dragon", about the reign of Aegon I (when the older dragons were hatched). I think Peace of the Dragon must be fairly short (doing the math, under 10,000 words, possibly only 2-3,000), and most of it was in the "First Dornish War" section of the Dorne chapter. .....yeah, being called a "she-dragon" may confirm they laid eggs, but not confirm if any of these eggs ever hatched (or survived). ......think coloration is indication of anything? Tessarion out of Dreamfyre? I know that GRRM himself hasn't decided what color Vhagar is. But I wonder what he'll finally pick. I always think of it as green...but part of me kind of hopes for purple. Royal purple. Just because it's the only color dragons haven't displayed already....haha
  3. Pure and idle speculation with no possible answer, I wonder what the family tree is of the Targaryen dragons - it's possible even GRRM didn't work it out yet. Complicating matters is how long dragons live, and how long their eggs can stay dormant. For all we know, one of the hatchlings during the Dance was from an egg recently laid by Vhagar - or, from an egg Meraxes laid a century before. We know that they were probably inbred over time, like the Targaryens themselves - there were only 3 original dragons. I am going to go with the big assumption that no dragon ever mated with its parent, or grandparent (ack). But there could have been inter-generational matings - i.e. nieces and nephews. Generally, it seems that the larger dragons are also older - though there are exceptions. Much like horses, or dogs: a 1 year old mastiff or St. Bernard is bigger than a 5 year old terrier. Dreamfyre was noted to be "slender", despite being the same generation or so as Vermithor. There are only two real clues to grasp at so far: 1 - confirmed egg-layers, 2 - if coloration indicates anything. Basically, it seems the narration describes dragons as female - using female pronouns - if they were confirmed egg-layers. A few are described as "Queens", which I think definitely means they're egg-layers. Pronoun analysis alone might not be consistent due to confused editing on these rough drafts (Caraxes is referred to inconsistently as "he" or "she"). So we've got: The original 5 dragons: Balerion and four others, relation unknown. The original 3 conquest-era dragons - unknown if they were related to each other: Balerion - black, with red highlights. Male pronouns. Meraxes - silver, with gold highlights (apparently). Female pronouns. Vhagar - coloration unknown. Female pronouns. There's mention that the Dragonpit was built for "Balerion, Vhagar, and their get". The possibility remains that Meraxes produced multiple eggs with Balerion that they held on to - or even, dragons from eggs the original four left over. Conquest to Dance: The hatchling Quicksilver bonded with 3 year old Aenys in 10 AC, and he rode it to Dorne in 23 AC. TRP describes Quicksilver using female pronouns. I suspect that Quicksilver was the progeny of Balerion and Meraxes, given that it's an egg they gave Rhaenys's son Aenys, thematically for his dragon to be the child of his mother's, and a possible hint that both were probably silver (going by the name). For all we know, Quicksilver could have produced eggs from which other named dragons later hatched. It was these mentions about Quicksilver's coloration which led me to suspect that the color of other dragons may be a clue. By the end of Aegon I's reign, there were "half a dozen" hatchlings on Dragonstone. Not every hatchling necessarily lived to maturity. Aenys's daughter Rhaena (Aegon I's first grandchild) became rider of Dreamfyre in 35 AC (2 years before his death). By 48 AC, Aenys's other children had dragons: Jaehaerys I had Vermithor, Alysanne had Silverwing. At some point Jaehaerys & Alysanne made a big formal visit to Winterfell with 6 dragons. Vermithor, Silverwing....I tentatively assume the other four included Balerion and Dreamfyre. As for the last two...Meleys...and Caraxes? At the time of the Dance, by size class: Very large: Vhagar Large Vermithor - bronze with tan highlights. Male pronouns. Largest dragon after Vhagar. Silverwing - apparently silver. Female pronouns. Apparently a mated pair with Vermithor, like their original riders. When surveying the three dead dragons after Tumbleton (Vermithor, Tessarion, Seasmoke) says she looked on her "slain cousins" - though "cousin" might be a loose term (for all we know, Vermithor was her brother, but "cousins" is being used collectively for the other two as well). Dreamfyre - light blue, with silver highlights. Female pronouns. Described as "a slender she-dragon". Meleys - scarlet red, with copper highlights. Female pronouns. "No stranger to battle"?? What, was there another Dornish War or wildling incursion? Or battle against pirates in the Narrow Sea? Called "The Red Queen", probably an egg-layer. Caraxes - solid red. Apparently a mated pair with Syrax? Syrax - solid yellow. Confirmed egg-layer, multiple clutches of eggs. First taken as a mount by Rhaenyra in 104 AC, when Rhaenyra was seven, and Syrax was "young". Stated that Rhaenyra named her - though it's possible that a dragon could be wild for a few years and only get a name upon being claimed (I don't know). Rhaenyra named her "Syrax" after a Valyrian goddess. Sheepstealer - "ugly mud brown", solid coloration. Male pronouns. Hatched when Jaehaerys I was young. The Cannibal - coal black, solid coloration. Some wonder if it was even a Targaryen dragon, or an old Valyrian dragon from a separate lineage (I think it's more interesting if it really was a Targaryen dragon, that went insane from all the inbreeding, but we don't know). Presumably this means that characters in-universe don't know who laid its egg. Medium to Light: Sunfyre - shining gold, with pale pink wing membranes. Male pronouns. "Young" in 120 AC. Tessarion - blue (dark cobalt), with copper highlights. Called "the Blue Queen", apparently an egg-layer. Seems to be younger than Sunfyre, given that by 120 AC Daeron had "yet to ride" her - though he was only six at the time, Seasmoke - pale silver-grey. Male pronouns. Laenor Velaryon possessed him since at least 101 AC. Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes - color unknown. Male pronouns. Vermax hatched after 114 AC when Jacaerys Velaryon was born. Somewhat implied that all three were from a clutch of eggs laid by Syrax and sired by Caraxes (unproven). Moondancer - pale green, with pearl white highlights. Slender, Stated to be a "she-dragon". Grey Ghost - pale grey-white, the color of morning mist. Male pronouns. Hatchlings: Stormcloud - coloration unknown. Male pronouns. Possessed by Rhaenyra's son Aegon III. Morghul - coloration unknown. Male pronouns (I think). Possessed by Aegon II's son Jaehaerys. Shrykos - coloration unknown. Male pronouns (I think). Possessed by Aegon II's daughter Jaehaera. Morning - hatched after the war, possessed by Rhaena of Pentos. Rhaenyra had earlier given Rhaena eggs that Syrax laid - very probably Syrax was her mother. Well, that's a lot to take in. Speculation: Balerion and Vhagar produced confirmed progeny. Vermithor and Silverwing probably produced progeny. Caraxes and Syrax probably produced progeny. Meleys and Tessarion probably produced progeny, given their description as "Queens". Problem is that I assume all of the "large" dragons were of the same generation....when for all we know, Caraxes and Syrax were actually third-generation, siblings with Sunfyre. At least, we know they were younger than Verithor. But Caraxes and Syrax were "huge", whereas Sunfyre was more..."medium". Biggest of the younger ones. Not "huge" as such, but a pretty formidable fighter. I think that that the younger dragons of the Blacks were all produced in the multiple clutches laid by Syrax, sired by Caraxes - and the two hatchlings given to Aegon II's children were probably laid by Tessarion. The sire may have been Sunfyre. Tessarion may have ben the only generation three parent. The real question are the generation two dragons: Meleys and Silverwing were probably egg-layers. ....were Caraxes and Syrax truly "Generation 2"? Or a separate, intervening generation? Making the new gen-three just "Caraxes and Syrax", the medium to lights "gen four" and the hatchlings "gen five". If coloration is any clue, TRP's revelation that Dreamfyre was light blue and silver may indicate that it was the mother of Tessarion - or, hatched from an egg Quicksilver left behind. Meleys may have actually been the mother of Caraxes and Syrax - given their red/yellow coloration. Hmmm..... The only ones they presume are male are Balerion, Vermithor, Caraxes, Sunfyre, Seasmoke, and the wild dragons. Did they even know who the alleged "male" parent was? Or did they just find dragon eggs, not even knowing who laid them? Crud, I hope Fire and Blood answers this...
  4. I realize this may have been an odd question - I just stumbled on these in my folder of "screenshots of anything useful for articles from the histories and lore animated videos" and remembered that I had to take it *down* from the TV wiki due to topless women in it. Broader question: there should be one main article for the culture of the three Hyrkoon successor cities in the Bone Mountains: Should this be under "Patrimony of Hyrkoon" (which is extinct), "Bone Mountains" (treating it as a region, like "Free Cities", not just a topographical feature), etc.?
  5. And in regards to my question about what wiki policy is for posting official and/or unofficial artwork containing nudity? (the only official artwork of certain characters/places contains nudity).
  6. Ack - well even a single paragraph can be pretty big info. The mental comparison I keep using is the Greystarks mentioned on literally one page in ADWD....describing a centuries-long major conflict in sweeping terms. Compared to 10 pages of intense characterization description about Maegor and Aenys. Speaking of Anne....I'm submitting convention panels again for NYCC - I've only gotten into local panels before, and NYCC hasn't had a GoT/ASOIAF panel in four years now. Given that Fire and Blood Volume 1 will be coming out around Christmas 2018, one of the panels I'm submitting is on "This is what Fire and Blood Volume 1 is, it's an outline of the Game of Thrones prequel successor show storylines, and if you only know the main TV show this is what the other prequel eras are like". The topic feels timely enough. Given that Anne lives in NYC, can you contact her and ask if she'd like to "appear" at this, to promote the books? She can do as much or as little work as she wants (anything from "if Anne is turned off by the idea of asking her to do a lot of stuff, she can just sit there and field a few questions but I'm doing all the heavy work" to "Anne would feel slighted if she wasn't outright co-hosting"). I'd also love to pick her brain on questions like how much of one thing or another got cut. I might not get a panel at all due to heavy competition - but if I can put on the application "GRRM's editor will be there" it might help get our foot in the door. Last time I ran panels in the NYC area I didn't advertise it to keep shownlies from attacking it, but even GRRM (via livejournal comments) pointed out this was pretty silly and it would be smarter to try to organize a bigger fan gathering months in advance.
  7. Quick question: I was talking about World of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood with someone, regarding the relative size of material cut from the final release (i.e. "All of Sons of the Dragon was released; but nearly all of the Regency was cut, which was "nearly as long" as the Dance material, and has not been released). I also remembered that at some point Elio mentioned in passing material which was cut from the World book from "beyond Westeros" - stuff that couldn't plausibly be included in a Targaryen history like Fire and Blood (....*maybe* some anecdotes about the Starks which got cut could be included as a footnote in a Targaryen history, as it is a history "of Westeros"). But I remember @Ran remarking that there was "more" material on the Dothraki and Yi Ti which got cut. 1 - Regarding material about regions "beyond Westeros" which wouldn't plausibly fit into a Targaryen history book like Fire and Blood, specifically which regions have more unreleased material? Just "the Dothraki" and "Yi Ti", or some other stuff too on Hyrkoon, Qarth, etc? 2 - ....I don't know if you'd be willing to release a specific word count, but off the top of your head, about how much material on the Dothraki and Yi Ti was left unreleased? Just in terms of "the Regency material is nearly as long as the Dance material" - was it just a few notes here and there on Yi Ti? Or is it a case of "actually the amount GRRM wrote is fully twice as long as what we were able to fit in that chapter of the print book"? I'm not sure how those would get released - the app or a future edition. I ask here because I wanted to update the wiki article on the World book just as we made a list of contents for the Fire and Blood article.
  8. We finally got a big news update on what the heck was going on with Telltale's much-delayed Game of Thrones video game, Season 2. My video report:
  9. A wiki policy question for @Ran : On the Fandom/Wikia network, such as the TV show wiki, Star Wars' Wookieepedia, etc., the higher-up staff within the organization explained to us that they have a strict "no nudity" policy, which we've tried to enforce. We cannot post screencapped images containing: Genitals Buttocks Exposed female breasts Does the same rule apply to's Wiki of Ice and Fire regarding images containing nudity? I think there are two broad categories: officially commissioned artwork, and the more nebulous "good fanart that got picked for inclusion in the wiki". I.e. there's an officially commissioned artwork for "Barter Beach" (in the Basilisk Isles) created by John McCambridge for A World of Ice and Fire, posted on Deviantart....not included in the print version. Possibly due to censorship because it has topless women in it: Similarly, artwork depicting the warrior-women of the Hyrkoon city-states - who, as Addam of Duskendale frequently reminds us, go about in everyday life with their breasts bare, with iron rings pierced in their nipples and rubies studded in their cheeks. Obviously this type of thing is a broad policy rule and I have no intention of disputing it - on the TV show wiki I just accepted it as a given - but I'm not actually sure what the stated policy IS on A Wiki of Ice and Fire.
  10. BrienneTheBlue112 has been working reliably on the TV wiki since 2015: and isn't just a casual fan dropping in.
  11. ....In-universe, main novels, characters consider it the "Andal invasion". Oh we could say there was an "Anglo-Saxon migration", but it's remembered as the "Andal Invasion". I'd vote for "Andal InvasionS", as it was more a 2,000 year or so time period that lasted generations.
  12. Thanks. Also we may need help with the French translation subtitles of some of the DVD commentary clips I posted on my channel. More updates soon...I'm working on "The Biography of David Benioff"...
  13. The Dragon Demands guest appearance on A Podcast of Ice and Fire, to spread rant about the TV show
  14. That's just a big bay that curves west a bit. "Straight north" yeah, but much farther north (around latitude of Thenn valley) Maps are always approximations and even the ones given in the books themselves aren't necessarily accurate. How accurate are fan made recreation maps relative to the maps printed in the books? The ones I've seen in the wiki are reasonably accurate.
  15. First real news posts coming out for the Fire and Blood Volume 1 release date: Germany actually seems early November. ...Unsubstantiated websites list the UK release as early October. Can @Ran verify what is currently known or not known? (via a Tweet announcement or something). There was a time moratorium on the wiki being updated with prequel novella info when each was released, and AWOIAF. As the release date draws nigh, going to need to clarify when the moratorium will end on the wiki for FoBV1.