MtnLion

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  1. Leaks discussion thread for season 7 vol. 2.

    In the books we get a single perspective in each chapter. All we know of Daenerys, Viserys, and the Dothraki is from Daenerys' perspective. I believe that her perspective is somewhat distorted. She shows heavy signs of being a true narcissist in both the books and the series. We will get the reveal in the end.
  2. There is a year between the tourney and Lyanna's disappearance. The fair weather of the false spring lasted only a moon, then winter returned with a vengeance. Between the tourney and Brandon going to Riverrun to deal with Littlefinger's challenge, Aegon was born, and Elia did not get reported as expecting at the tourney. Rhaegar was looked for when Aerys lit fires on the walls of King's Landing, against the chill of the winter, but he could not be found, even on Dragonstone with his newborn son. After dealing with Littlefinger, Brandon took his leave of Catelyn for a short errand, which once completed he would return to Riverrun for their wedding. It was when Brandon was returning that he received word that had him hastily riding for King's Landing, and being an utter fool. To the OP, who says that Lyanna was kidnapped? Robert. It makes sense that Robert would protect his ego by insisting that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. It also makes sense that no one is telling the king that he is naked.
  3. R+L=J v.162

    You insist that the people are not going to accept Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna, but continue to ignore that they did accept the incestuous marriage of Aerys and Rhaella. The people are not in an uproar about anything as far as we see. Further, we know that the people cheered for Aerys, they cheered twice as loud for Tywinn, and redoubled that for Rhaegar. It just is not sound reasoning to say that Rhaegar's actions would be rejected by the people. No, I don't troll. I usually ignore those that I believe are trolls, though. Feel free. Before you do, you might want to review what went on at the tower of joy. (There is a link in my signature to my analysis of the dialog.) It is very plain that the disposition and dialog of the Kingsguard at the tower of joy can only make sense if Jon is legitimate.
  4. R+L=J v.162

    Ygrain said: Wait a sec, as I said I don't have TWOIAF but I seem to recall from previous discussions that the Faith's uproar was indeed over the incest (and as for Maegor's polygamy, wasn't the "spurned" wife HS's relative?) lojzelote Said: OK, you're right about this. Only the king can legitimize, so the easiest way for Rhaegar to legitimize Jon is for him to marry Lyanna. We don't know what kind of arrangement that Rhaegar may have had with Elia, but it is clear that polygamy could have been a topic after the birth of Aegon. Some of the things that you attribute to the people is very suspect, BTW. I mean, how outraged were the people about Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella being the product of incest? Again, refer back to incest being more of an outrage than polygamy, the latter being more or less acceptable, the former is labeled a sin. Also, there doesn't seem to be any public revolt because the current king (either Joffrey or Tommen) is a bastard.
  5. R+L=J v.162

    Based upon the acceptance of Jon's legitimacy by the most honorable men that Ned knew, there should be no argument here. Try turning that around, and if Jon were truly illegitimate, why would Ned have honored the Kingsguard at the tower? Why would Ned not think of Rhaegar with disdain, for having dishonored his sister? There are too many things that do not make sense, if Jon were not trueborn. One can bury their head in the sand, and say that there is no sun; that there is no lion; that there is no water. It just will never make it so.
  6. R+L=J v.162

    We only know that incest is an affront to gods and men. Polygamy is tolerated, in others than Targaryen. And I ask, why would the people tolerate the incestuous marriage of Aerys and Rhaella, any more than a Polygamous Rhaegar? Then one needs to consider what personality trait indicates that Lyanna would willingly become a paramour? What personality trait indicates that Rhaegar would forcibly rape Lyanna? Why would that add up to "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna"?
  7. Why would Cersei off Pycelle?

    As far as I can recall, Arya was stabbed once, though it would have seemed to be pretty serious. I am not too sure that Pycelle was guaranteed to arrive soon enough to suffer the same fate as everyone else. It does make sense for Cersei to have a special condition for his death, and it seems like there might be some tie-in to the end game that he be stabbed to death by the "Little Birds". The reason for Cersei to pay special attention to Pycelle, is related to his having Tommen's ear before Cersei's council. She has become very jealous of his hold on Tommen over the last few episodes. She also manages to have a special going away party for Septa Ulna. "Shame. Shame. Shame."
  8. R+L=J v.162

    What hints that we do have suggest that Rhaegar and Lyanna married. The substance is that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and that Lyanna would not tolerate being placed in the position of mistress, even honored mistress. We also know that Elia and Rhaegar were in an arranged marriage, and that Rhaegar was "fond" of Elia. We don't have any particulars on Elia, other than another pregnancy would likely lead to her death. Don't be misled by the miscreants that flout bigamy being a problem for the Targaryens. Incest, which is said to be a real problem for the people of the realm to accept, was tolerated. Aerys and Rhaella were brother and sister. It stands to reason that bigamy would be more tolerated than Aerys' incestuous marriage, and both have precedent.
  9. R+L=J v.162

    For the reasoning that @J. Stargaryen and @Shmedricko layout, I have always believed that GRRM was leading us to the reveal of Jon as Aemon Targaryen. The parallel between Maester Aemon and Jon has been pretty obvious to me.
  10. R+L=J v.162

    Yes, Tywin places Rhaenys' age when she was killed. Aegon's age is placed in an SSM at about one year. It is nearly certain that Rhaegar did not leave Dragonstone before Aegon was born, based upon what Daenerys sees at the House of the Undying. Further support through the World Book, about Rhaegar's whereabouts not being known during the bitter cold. Brandon travels to Riverrun to answer Littlefinger's challenge, and this must be after the bitterest part of winter has receded. After Brandon defeats Littlefinger he excuses himself from Riverrun for a short errand, and hears news that has him ride for King's Landing when he is returning. Some time passes as Rickard is summoned to King's Landing, and he musters 100 men to accompany him. And, it is after Rickard and Brandon are executed that Jon Arryn receives the message demanding the heads of his wards, that is the beginning of the war. So, lay it out on a timeline for yourself, and work things out on your own. If you have a genuine question, I am sure that you will get a genuine answer, here. I get tired of being challenged at each turning, for no reason at all. To a thinking person, Rhaenys' age should have been the real turning point. Tywin, who was Hand when Rhaenys was born, the manner he uses places her age at death within a week or two either side of her third nameday. Add that she must be born in the 10th or 11th month of the year (not noted for being near the new year for either Rhaegar's wedding, or her birth), and we have a month in 283 for the sack, or official end of the war. At the very least it is in the third quarter of the year.
  11. R+L=J v.162

    Rhaegar and Elia married in 280, so there is nine months of 280 gone. Come on. And you were quoting the World Book earlier. Aegon was born near the new year of 282. (This does agree with my pre-World Book calculations.) Early in 281 the Harrenhal Tourney is held. Winter returns shortly afterwards. Elia was bedridden for half a year after delivering Rhaenys, yet she attends the tourney. It puts a pretty strict window on the time between Harrnehal and the sack of King's Landing. Jaime's age confirms it.
  12. R+L=J v.162

    Here. After the Battle of the Bells, Ned and Jon Arryn married the Tully girls. They spent long enough together for Ned to see Catelyn pregnant before returning to the war. Robb is a newborn when Catelyn leaves Riverrun for Winterfell (after the war). Jon is at Winterfell with his wetnurse when Catelyn arrives. Early in GoT it is implied that Robb is older by about a fortnight than Jon. That agrees with Catelyn's view that Jon was conceived after her wedding Ned, and Ned's admission (lie). Now, look at the ages of the children: Rhaenys is near her third birthday and Aegon was about a year old when slain. (Or, maybe even Jaime being sworn in at Harrenhal at fifteen, and killing Aerys when he was seventeen.) (Mike drops)
  13. R+L=J v.162

    Cripes, how long did the war last? Think about how you are trying to compare apples and oranges, to make your point. I think that you will join the others on my ignore list. I am telling you that a mother of a newborn can tell the difference in ages of newborns that are within weeks of each other, and only a month or two old.
  14. R+L=J v.162

    Oh, are you one of those that will say that Catelyn couldn't tell the ages of newborns? Why would she think that Ned had fathered Jon after her wedding? It seems that Jon's nameday is about a fortnight after Robb's. But, even if you want to protest this, it should be abundantly clear that between the Battle of the Bells and the fall of King's Landing there is at least nine months. The Battle of the Bells was the first battle in the new year of 283. It does matter, based upon what Whent and Dayne do to get back to the tower. There is nothing that tells us for certain that Rhaegar spent more than a few hours at King's Landing before heading off to the Trident. Rhaegar could have been said to have taken command, if he was corresponding with the Kingsguard who were leading the effort. That could have been by raven, while enroute to King's Landing. It would not make sense for Rhaegar to travel through enemy territory unescorted, making it clear the Whent and Dayne likely accompanied him. In my opinion, it took Hightower several months to sleuth out the location of the tower.
  15. R+L=J v.162

    When there is a slough of misinformation, I suspect all of the information unless it is verified from an alternate source. I believe that is a reasonable approach. After the Battle of the Bells Aerys sent the Kingsguard (except Jaime and Hightower) to gather the scattered forces. At some point Aerys asked for and received a pledge for Dorne spears to add to the mustered forces. Likely, although not specified, additional levies were brought in and trained. The Kingsguard (Lewyn, Barristan, Jonothor) assigned to those forces were fully capable of commanding and training those forces. Hightower was assigned to find Rhaegar and return him to King's Landing. We have no timeline for Hightower's search, Rhaegar's return, or when Rhaegar assumed command of the armies, except that it was before the Trident. Let me open your eyes, fully, then. Jon is younger than Robb. Robb was born a little over nine months after the Battle of the Bells. Robb was a babe when Catelyn took him to Winterfell, after the war, after Jon and his wetnurse were installed at Winterfell. Just because not a lot happened that was noted in the story does not indicate that Ned and Robert were on vacation for those nine months. There were scattered remnants of the crown's army to have encounters with, scattered all over the kingdom. ETA: I don't want to mislead you. I do believe that Rhaegar was present for Chelsted's roasting, leading to his dialog with Jaime. We just don't have a firm timeline that would tell us when Hightower found Rhaegar, when Rhaegar arrived at King's Landing, and when he could have sent Whent and Dayne back to the tower. It is important to note why Chelsted was roasted. He protested Rossart's preparations with the wildfire, finally resigning. Aerys didn't take that kindly, and roasted him for his efforts on behalf of the residents of King's Landing. Being paranoid, and considering that Rossart was the cause for Aerys to be Hand-less, it makes sense for Aerys to have raised him to Hand immediately. It does not make sense for Aerys to delay appointing a new Hand, because he is taking applications and conducting interviews . . . Aerys wants one thing, to win, either on the field (Rhaegar) or in the city (Rossart).