Ibbison from Ibben

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About Ibbison from Ibben

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    Hungry, but not for food

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  1. Don't agree. Word of God (GRRM) states that the seasons were once normal and the irregular seasons now experienced are magically induced. In Westerosi legend, the Long Night marked the first appearance of the Others. Legend may not always be 100% accurate, but we have no reason to dismiss this as a valid data point. Tobho Mott, an experienced worker of Valerian Steel, could not get the remnants of Ice to behave as he thought they should. The claim that, because some data points are uncertain therefore all data points are uncertain, is blatant BS. Even if a data point is to some extent uncertain, valuable information can be extracted from it. And that stands for the real world. In ASoIaF we are dealing with the creation of GRRM, who can play by any rules he wishes to, and who is known to provide hints and foreshadowings. And that's what this thread is about.
  2. Kind of like watching a car crash? D&D said they were doing Westeros 2.0, and the only spoilers were - Shireen burns, Hodor's Hold the Door, and The End. Whatever that is. Think Chekhov's Volcano. Dragonmont or Winterfell. Take your pick or flip a coin.
  3. I agree with pretty much everything the OP stated, but it is in fact possible to pinpoint the exact moment the show started to go wrong. Ep 310, when Jaime opens the door to Cersei's room, and they exchange gazes. D&D are scene writers. They emphasize discreet visual moments. They aren't storytellers; they don't give a mummer's fart about plot. If Jaime is in KL and functioning as LCKG during Joff and Marge's wedding, then he is personally responsible for Joff's death. Using the precedent that Cersei established with Ser Barristan, Tywin could fire Jaime, and force him back to Casterly Rock, which Tywin has always wanted to do. Instead, Jaime tries to cut a deal with Tywin to save Tyrion. It makes no sense, but D&D don't care about plot, motivations, character, or sense. It was all downhill from there.
  4. The body was no doubt burned, and his squire Edric Dayne will be honor bound to return the bones to Blackhaven.
  5. Nissa Nissa is an eastern legend. Every region of Planetos seems to have its own Long Winter/Long Night legend. The Eastern legends emphasize Night, not Winter. Mel is (of course) screwing up by trying to apply it to Westeros. The present day Westerosi Nissa Nissa is of course Ned (Nedda Nedda?), who sacrificed himself to save his beloved daughter, and was killed with his own sword. That's why Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail have their strange coloring - they are infused with Ned's blood. That probably means that the two swords will be cold this time around, instead of hot. (Ned is associated with Ice.)
  6. Manderly does not describe Rickon as his liege lord. Bran is Manderly's liege lord. Wyman Manderly is a master of Exact Words, and he is using them to deceive Davos. When Davos returns Rickon to White Harbor, Wyman will say, "Oops! Bran is still alive, and he is my proper liege lord. Therefore, I don't have to take Stannis as my king. Thanks for bringing Rickon back. Here, have a cookie."
  7. My apologies for the delay in replying. Val is the Ice Lady. Think back to ADwD. Jon, who is the scion of Ice and Fire and thus represents the balance between the two, is tempted by Fire (Mel) and Ice (Val). He rejects both, as he must to maintain his neutrality between the two forces. Stannis will win his battle at the lake. He will then implement his plan to feign his own death to gain entrance to Winterfell. It will be completely unnecessary, however, since the northern lords will already have overthrown Roose, with the help of the force entering through the crypts led by Howland Reed, Galbert Glover, and Maege Mormont. Unfortunately, the "news" of Stannis's death will reach the Wall, where Mel, with Selyse's cooperation, will sacrifice Shireen to bring Stannis back to life. Stannis will not be amused. He will cross his moral event horizon, kill Mel and Selyse, wed Val, and assume his foreshadowed role as the Night's King.
  8. Oops. I meant that the situation I described will take place by the end of TWoW. I will edit accordingly. Stannis is indeed alive at the beginning of TWoW, but his connection with Nightfort and the legend of the Nights King seems pretty strong. His health is deteriorating rapidly. I don't see any evidence to indicate he will be alive at the end of TWoW. That doesn't mean he won't be around, of course.
  9. At the end of ADwD EDIT - TWoW - END EDIT, the ruler of the North will be the King of Winter, Brandon the Greenseer of House Stark. His Hand will be Howland Reed. His Sworn Spear will be Meera Reed. By that time, Tyrion will "be perched on" the seat of Jon's father. (Foreshadowing by Stannis.) Thus, Tyrion will rule Dragonstone (the seat of Jon's father, Rhaegar) and Stannis will be dead and unrisen. (Foreshadowing by both Stannis and Tywin.) ASOS 72 - Jaime IX "Well and good," announced Pycelle. "Let Stannis rot in Lys, I say. We are well rid of the man and his ambitions." "Did you turn into an utter fool when Tyrion shaved your beard? This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some. - conversation between GM Pycelle and Tywin Lannister ADwD 03 - Jon I "By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa." "Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow." - conversation between LC Jon Snow and Stannis Baratheon The Wall will likely fall in the epilogue of TWoW.
  10. a guess - POV - Sybell Spicer Westerling location - Casterly Rock magical content reveal - Sybell, frustrated with her daughter's ongoing devotion to her dead husband, reveals to Jeyne Westerling Stark that she dosed both her and Robb with love potions. death - Jeyne pushes her mother over the edge of the Rock; Sybell falls to her death.
  11. It's been a couple years since I've been here, so I need to ask - Has anyone spotted Wrong Way Dany? We all know Quaithe's advice to Dany (from several sources) - "To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow." In Meereen (ADwD 11 - Dany II) Dany gets another nocturnal visit from Quaithe (presumably via glass candle.) Frustrated, Dany repeats Quaithe's instructions back to her - and gets it wrong. "I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow." Dany reverses north and south. One interpretation might be that Quaithe is telling Dany (whose goal is the Iron Throne ) that she should land in Dorne in order to go to King's Landing (go south to go north), while Dany will mistakenly land in the Vale instead (going north to go south.) Please tell me I'm not the first to catch this.
  12. I'll bow out, since we probably don't want to bother each other, but I'll clear up one thing before I go. The statement about the Grey King excluding the CotF from the Iron islands is an abbreviated summary based on the following data - 1) Nagga's Bones certainly seem to be petrified Weirwood trunks. Forty four in one site would be the largest concentration of weirwoods we've ever heard of, and the seem to be in some sort of formation. To me, this marks the site as a former major holy site for the CotF. 2) According to Archmaester Haereg, the Ironborn claim that the Islands were never home to CotF, and didn't support weirwoods. 3) Ironborn legends claim that the Grey King carved the first longship from the pale wood of the demon tree Ygg. The implications seem to be obvious to me. I just wrote quickly.
  13. This is an interesting post. You deserve a good answer. so - Ice burning is a subjective term. Does ice really burn you? Like fire? No. The effect is totally different. Separating the subjective from the objective is always a good start to sound reasoning. The ice armor of the White Walkers melting when struck with obsidian is an interesting phenomenon. When we have enough data to examine other elemental interactions we might be able to form a hypothesis. Ned's Valyrian steel sword was named after a previous weapon, which may be more interesting than the present day blade(s). We'll have to wait for data. Still, naming is a simple subjective process. The Ironborn. Sigh. A people who see magic in intermediate level first aid. Do we have any evidence that a drowned man is harder to kill than an undrowned man? The answer would be no. Euron. If you believe half of what Euron says, I've got a bridge in New York you might be interested in buying. In the end, we must wait to see how much he says is true. The Horned God is the mate of the Earth Mother. Sky God mating with Earth Goddess, The Storm Lords of Houses Durrendon and Baratheon certainly qualify as Sky Gods. Thus the Stag sigil. Of course, the classic fertility figure Garth Greenhand came from the Reach. He had many mates, though. Once the fertility concept became fixed with one female figure and one male figure, the female was the Earth Mother (the Reach) and the male figure was the Sky King (the Stormlands or the Vale.). Stannis and Selyse. Renly and Margaery (or Loras).Robert and any girl he could get his hands on. Patchface was never a sky or earth figure before he drowned. He was a fire figure from Volantis. Now he may be undead. Stannis' Burning Stag (or Hart) was of course a corruption. Basically, when you have different elements you must expect them to interact, perhaps in interesting fashions. Crannogmen, for example, have Earth from the CotF, along with a healthy dose of Water. (The Mudmen may very well be descended from House Mudd, of the Riverlands.) Arya, the water dancer, has Ice from Ned and water from Catelyn. Little Bird Sansa has Air from grandma Whent. The Lannisters, who mine underground wealth, would be connected to the Underworld - Death. (That's why rule by the rich is called plutocracy - after Pluto, Roman God of the Underworld.) Have fun with that. And if you squint and hold your tongue just right, you can reach any conclusion you want to with this. You may not even need to sacrifice a goat.
  14. I did not state anything subjective as fact. The whole post was rather speculative, with the exception of a few solid facts.. And yet, my post was more closely based on the text than yours. Incorrect, or irrelevant. The fire of the gods may be a classical concept, but there is no evidence from GRRM that he is adhering to classical concepts. In fact, GRRM's comments do not support the existence of gods in AWoIaF. He leaves the matter up for grabs. There is no reference in ASoIaF to the "fire of the gods." Yet Fire is clearly treated as a separate element. Rhaegar's quote to Elia in THotU proves that. The CotF Sing the Song of Earth, and they are the ones who use the weirwoods. Any claim to the contrary is a conflict. That is a solid reason to reject some unsubstantiated metaphor concerning "the fire of the gods." The facts are clear. Weirwoods don't qualify as being subject to the "Fire of the Gods", because GRRM's mythology is not that of classical Greece and Rome. That is your prejudice, not mine. There is no "Fire of the Gods" in the text. I dismiss it because it deserves to be dismissed on a rational basis. I don't have a problem with you floating a hypothesis, but if you fail to evaluate it critically and I do, that's your problem. Not pure conjecture. Supported somewhat by the text. References to Sea magic, Storm magic, Air magic, Water magic, Earth magic, Fire magic, and Blood magic exist in the text. Still somewhat speculative, as I admitted. The relationships between them are open to interpretation. Ice and Fire are clearly shown to be separate from Earth in the books.The very separation of the names speaks to this. The classical five elements are not being used here. References to them are irrelevant. The evidence I presented makes that clear. Ice, Water, and Sea magic are all clearly referenced as being separate in GRRM's world. The Others (and perhaps the Stark Kings of Winter) wield Ice. The Roynar wield water. (The Tullys, who draw their power from the river, might be a minor example) The Ironborn are of the sea. That's what I looked at before I posted this. Kindly state some of that "plenty of evidence to suggest the Others had an origin in greenseer magic." All greenseers we see are associated with Earth magic. I'm not the dogmatic one here. I clearly labeled my speculative ideas as speculation.Or at least I thought I did. I shot down your claim that Fire = Knowledge because the text does not support it. I looked at your point, and rejected it on solid, text based grounds. Fire is clearly an elemental force. Dragons are Fire made Flesh. Aegon conquered Westeros with Dragons, with Fire. Not knowledge. It's not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of evaluation. If you have solid arguments, you can change my mind. But your arguments aren't solid. The Fire = Knowledge claim seems to be your main complaint. I think I dealt with that easily. If you have others, please let me know.. In TWoIaF, Valyria's rise commences immediately after the end of the Long Night. (TWoIaF, p 13) The Ghiscari rose more quickly, and had to be defeated. Yet the Long Night in Westeros is set around 6000 BP, not 8000 BP as implied by the True History. Given the relationship between Ice and Fire in the text, their individual rise, though separate, should likely be considered to be related. The relationship between Ice and Fire implied in the text suggests it. Speculative, yes. But probably good.
  15. I don't see myself as being dismissive of symbolism; I'm just skeptical of the subjective interpretations that are naturally involved in it. I strongly believe in constantly checking subjective interpretations against whatever the best facts are we have. I don't think that the greenseer/weirwwod connection IS the fire of the gods. I suspect that all the elemental forces have knowledge. The greenseer/weirwood connection is openly stated as being the Song of Earth. I have a very elemental view of forces/magics in this series. I didn't become acquainted with the series until about three months before Dance came out, and read it shallowly at first. It wasn't until Dance came out that I came here, and learned much. I strongly suspect many old-timers had/have a very Ice vs Fire view of the cosmology. To me, the single most important line of Dance, or perhaps the whole series, was when in Dance the CotF announced the they "Sang the Song of Earth." That opened up the entire cosmology. Weirwoods aren't a combination of Ice and Fire, just because they are red and white. They are Earth. Fire isn't knowledge here. Dany, Mel, or the Targs in general aren't any more knowledgeable than anyone else. Fire is simply one more element. As I pointed out, the Fire link to the weirwoods was a one-off. Weirwoods suffered as much from cutting as from Fire. The Grey King is a Sea figure, who stole Fire from the Storm God. He was opposed to greenseers, as the story of Ygg demonstrates. Sitting on a weirwood throne was a symbol of dominance over the Earth Singers, whom he excluded from the Iron Islands. Just as the Seven-worshiping Arryns sat on a weirwood throne. BR is indeed a merger of Fire and Earth. Thus, he is a conflicted individual. Likewise, Jon is a merger of Ice and Fire. Beric began as a Storm Lord. He died, and was resurrected by Fire. When he sits on a weirwood throne, it symbolizes Fire attempting to defeat and displace Earth. After all, Beric shows no Earth-like powers. Beric is a failed AA-wannabe. His R'hllorist revival is based solely on Fire, instead of the necessary Ice and Fire balance of the true AAR. (Even Dany, in the HotU, is urged to drink from both the Cup of Ice and the Cup of Fire.) The Grey King kept Fire as a thrall. The Sea King enslaves Fire. For a while, at least. And don't forget to account for those Roynar water wizards. Elements. Sea and Storm(Air). Earth and Water. Ice and Fire. Three complementary pairs. And Life/Death/Blood, to tie them together. On a sane dating system, the Rise of Valyria coincided with the Rise of the Others/Long Night. That's not a coincidence. Robert Baratheon, the Sky King, slew Rhaegar the Fire Dragon, Just like Zeus slew Typhon. (A Sky God slaying a serpent/dragon is a common Indo-European story.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion#Mythology) Fire Rhaegar was rather foolish to fight the battle while standing in a river. This is my Seven Songs Theory, all the way back from Heresy 1. The alcohol influenced, off topic short version. Dany's questions about aeromancers and stormsingers in AGoT Dany III were a major influence.