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About Tagganaro

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    I know SUN TZU hrurrr jizz everywhre.

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  1. I continue to just not really understand this criticism. I mean, there's a ton of things to criticize about the show and this just seems relatively minor. From a simplistic perspective, both in the books and the show, Robert's Rebellion is portrayed as beginning with Rheagar's "rape" or "abduction" or whatever you want to call it of Lyanna. And I mean, that's really just not a simplistic perspective, but a fact- you can definitely say that is a proximate cause of Robert's Rebellion, just as you can say the assassination of the Austrian Archduke is a proximate cause of World War I. There are a ton of other factors and things that had to happen afterwards, but the starting point of Robert's Rebellion that kicks off all the consequences is unquestionably Lyanna's disappearance. That's what leads directly into Brandon's hothead response and Aerys summoning Rickard and executing them and on and on and on. Now we can go on and on and on about the exact causes of Robert's Rebellion, but I think it's fair to say that hypothetically-speaking, had Brandon known that Lyanna loved Rheagar and went with him voluntarily to be married, he would not have shown up at King's landing demanding Rheagar come out and fight him.
  2. Yes I do believe she said that in front of Mance as well. At this point, it is still really unclear whether Mel knows about the baby switcheroo or not. I recall Val telling Jon that Mel definitely knows about it and allowed it to happen for her own reasons, but Jon is unconvinced. Yeah...I don't really think Craster is a Stark. Possible but unlikely. In any case, I don't think Mel is gonna burn Monster. It seems like she is more likely to burn poor Shireen IMO.
  3. I'd still maintain that the biggest culprit in the decline in quality in the show is not D & D nor is it HBO- It's GRRM and his inability to finish these books on time. I don't think D & D or HBO traded in their integrity or anything like that- they simply lost the narrative they were adapting the show from and are stuck making up shit to try and fill in the blanks of the narrative endgame they were handed by GRRM.
  4. I just don't even get, with the benefit of hindsight as well, what Sansa could possibly have done to avenge her family by marrying Ramsay. None of it made any sense to begin with- she's getting vengeance by voluntarily providing legitimacy to the Bolton's claim on the North? The only possible way for the show to make this make any sense would be to have a "the North Remembers" plotline taking place in Winterfell where you'd see Sansa using her political skills to make allies like Lady Dustin, Manderley, Cerwyn, etc. But the show never had any inclination to even include these characters, and indeed show-wide the past few seasons the tendency has been to entirely cut out most minor lords and houses. It's sort of the same thing that happened with the show's portrayal of Dorne where you just have to wonder whether they ever had any kind of plan in the first place because none of it really holds up to logic.
  5. Whether it's intentional or not, Jon still did steal her. I don't think we can say even from a modern POV that this doesn't make sense- a guy or girl doesn't necessarily need to have intent to get someone to fall for them. All they need is some initial form of attraction, which Jon checks off by "stealing" Ygritte according to wildling custom, being attractive to Ygritte on a superficial basis, and then sparing her life. And yeah, I do think we're supposed to believe that Qhorin brought Jon along with this sole purpose of being a mole in mind (as unlikely as that may seem at the time). Qhorin specifically requests to bring Jon along on the ranging, so I think it's fair to assume the reason behind that is potentially being able to place him in as a mole if all goes to hell. Qhorin knows Mance like Ygritte knows Mance- I think it's reasonable to suspect that Qhorin knew Mance would take Jon in because of the Bael the Bard/Stark connection. I really can't disagree with any of this. My only quibble is that attraction doesn't necessarily always have to be instantaneous. It can develop over time by spending time together, etc. That's how I read Jon's observation about her crooked teeth and smile and all that stuff. But certainly afterwards the situation in which he first sleeps with her is disturbing as hell and not really any different from Dany's rape by Drogo. Pretty much this. I'd also point out that whatever happened on Dany's wedding night, whether it was fingering or sex, she was in no position to give any real consent in the first place. All this is occurring under threat from her violent and abusive older brother- Viserys explicitly tells her to "please" Drogo or she will wake the dragon as it has never been woken before. Dany is terrified of Viserys and she is terrified of Drogo on her wedding night (and as that passage describes, even afterwards). I do not think that just because Drogo is surprisingly tender with her and gets her wet that it changes the fact that this is still a rape- it may be a tender rape but it is still rape.
  6. I think Dany definitely gives the impression that she was treated as property and abused. This is Dany's own recollection shortly after her marriage to Drogo. To me this is pretty clearly Dany recalling being repeatedly raped and treated like property. I think we have to judge this through the lens of wildling culture, which can be pretty shitty. Jon has unwittingly stolen Ygritte by every iteration of the wildling practice- he has murdered her "kinsmen" and subdued her, "allowing" him to have sex with her. By Ygritte's standards Jon has simply stolen her exactly as is the prescribed custom of the wildlings. Now I do think for Ygritte Jon's "pretty face and body" is certainly an added bonus. I wouldn't say Jon shows no indication of interest in Ygritte- we are not given a current in the moment POV from Jon of his unintentional courtship of Ygritte, but rather past recollections of Jon finding her to be more attractive upon each interaction with her (i.e. such as her crooked teeth not bothering him anymore on account of her great smile and similar recollections.) I think it may be fair to assume that Jon has given off some visual cues to Ygritte that he is not entirely disinterested in her at the very least. All this being said, I certainly can agree that the situation in which Jon first sleeps with Ygritte is disturbing and rapey- essentially it's Ygritte lying to Mance for Jon to spare Jon's life and then blackmailing him into making that lie a truth.
  7. Anything that involves more Dorne just doesn't make sense to me. The showrunners (and I'd argue GRRM too) already screwed the pooch with that one and going back there would just remind people of how dumb and pointless it was in the first place. I honestly think that's the one area that D & D unquestionably did right by this season- get rid of the Sandsnakes and create a great scene with Cersei killing Ellaria. I've said before that there were 2 main problems with this season- 1 is that it was built around the wight hunt which was just building a foundation on a house of cards. 2 is that Cersei had to stick around because I think D & D realized how great Lena Headey was and they wanted her around for Season 8 too. My fix would be relatively simple- Dany would take over the Iron Throne pretty quickly and easily, Jaime kills Cersei, etc. You just basically are cutting the South and Crownlands out of the story quickly. Then you can position Dany demanding fealty from the North and Jon refusing to give it as the main storyline. You can have them negotiating back and forth because Dany doesn't really want to have to take her army north and risk all these casualties. I think that basic fix would be far more logical in terms of the wight hunt (if you even still need to do it) and it would give a lot more time to the truly important characters like the Starks, Dany, Tyrion, etc.
  8. Yes, the Night's King actions of marrying an Other, committing numerous atrocities which were scrubbed from the record books, putting numerous Night's Watch brothers under some kind of spell, and making sacrifices to the Others certainly doesn't hold a candle to Jon allowing Melisandre to send Mance to rescue a girl on a dying horse . C'mon, at least up your trolling game.
  9. Not only is the idea that Sam would have supported the mutiny laughably insane, but I love you putting down Mormont's epiphany before he is assassinated. Not only would Sam have supported Jon's plans, but Mormont would too. I think there is something really tragic about Mormont's death that I wonder about hypothetically- Had Mormont made it back to the Wall, I imagine he would go about doing things exactly the way Jon eventually went about it. When you think about sort of that mirror funhouse version of Janos Slynt sending Jon to "treat" with Mance, I think Mormont would have done the same only he would have been genuine about it and not sending Jon out there to either kill Mance or die himself or both. And then I just wonder how much of it is perception- because there is a perception of Jon as a warg and half-wildling himself, racists like Marsh are prone to seeing ulterior motives behind Jon allowing the wildlings through. I think Mormont would have done the same and been a much better person to do so.
  10. First off I just want to say well done Walda. Really appreciate you putting everything down like that even if I disagree with you. Are we under-rating Marsh or just rating him exactly where he is and deserves to be ranked? He is an able steward and in his own way a brave loyal NW brother, but I would say there's no evidence he's anything more than that. Not just the guys you mention, but Jeor Mormont is also dismissive of him calling him a tired old man unfit to rule while lamenting the state of the Night's Watch. I think competence might be overstating things as well- he completely falls for Mance's feint as Mance knew he would and causes the deaths and injuries of a lot of NW brothers, including his own. I think this is an important point to note- Marsh is a very politically-aware brother of the NW and is clearly predisposed to support the Lannisters over the Baratheons. I do think the fact that he corresponds with the Crown is vital to explaining his actions, as well as his plotting in ASOS. Another important point to note- Marsh is described as a changed man after his bloody encounter with the Weeper...this is not the same Marsh that is described in AGOT. He has lost a lot of weight and if I recall correctly, is described as haggard-looking after returning to Castle Black. I think what the Weeper did to him explains a lot of his extreme hatred towards the wildlings, something that I'd posit did not exist nearly to that level prior to the Bridge of Skulls. Wun-Wun doesn't just go ape apropos of nothing and I don't think we need to read conspiracies into stuff that is easily explained throughout ADWD. The Queen's Men such as Ser Patrek are obsessed with Val- not only do they see her beauty but they continue to mistakenly believe that by marrying her they will gain control over the wildlings. Shortly before Jon's assassination, Selyse informs Jon that Ser Patrek is to marry Val- Jon responds that it is customary among the wildlings to steal women in front of Ser Patrek. I believe that is basically what happens- Ser Patrek tries to steal Val who is being guarded by Wun-Wun and that's it. This just provided an opportune distraction for Marsh and Wick and the other co-conspirators to quickly attack Jon, something I believe they literally just decided the second before on doing. And yes, I again agree that the double whammy of the Hardhome mission and Jon marching on Winterfell provokes a suicide response from Bowen marsh, not a pre-planned assassination. Iron Emmett loves sword-play and didn't seem to mind the incident with Jon- regardless we are essentially given that the rangers (probably including Emmett) largely support Jon while the stewards and builders do not. Mully is an interesting case as I've mentioned above since Ghost tried to bite his fingers off on the day of the assassination according to Mully. I agree with this but I continue to also be a bit puzzled by Wick's reaction to Jon stopping his stabbing attempt. The "it wasn't me" response just seems odd but I am inclined to agree I guess that it was just a cowardly reaction on Wick's part and nothing more. I also agree there's no way Borroq is involved- the wildlings in general are pretty loyal to Jon as they have good reason to be, and while there seems to be some kind of animosity between Borroq's boars and Ghost, I don't see that being enough to cause him to attempt something like this. There's just no motive there. You could have just left it at that but I appreciate your well-detailed and thought-out response to some of these obvious troll attempts.
  11. Agree to disagree on this one. Your examples of plotting in the text are well-taken, but to me they only indicate plotting prior to the election of the new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I also think it's important to differentiate between particularly Slynt on the one hand, and Marsh and Yarwyck on the other (Thorne kind of occupies a middle ground in my mind where he is loyal to the institution of the NW, but at the same time consumed by personal animosity and grievances towards Jon). Slynt is obviously one end of the spectrum- he has no loyalty to the NW and couldn't care less about it, he only cares about politics and power. But Marsh and Yarwyck, in their own delusional incorrect way, behave with loyalty towards the NW and its institutions. I don't believe that we have seen any evidence of continued plotting by them once Jon wins LC. Really well put. A lot of this Jon hate just comes across as trolling honestly, but your reasoned argument is still welcome. I particularly agree with your summation of Jon's arc (and in the process Dany's arc as well) in ADWD. I think obviously neither one is a perfect leader and mistakes were made throughout their respective rules, but at the same time neither one is written to be in the wrong, ethically speaking. Dany is fighting to end slavery in hopelessly difficult circumstances, and Jon is fighting to stop the extinction of an entire group of people in equally hopeless circumstances. It's important to note the when of Jon's decision to allow the wildlings through. He does not start out the book dead set on doing so, in many ways and instances he agrees with Marsh. This changes during the trip to the weirwood grove when Jon encounters the injured and freezing wildlings and listens to the new recruits recite the NW oath. At this moment it dawns on Jon that he is the shield that guards the realms of men, the same realization that Mormont arrives at shortly before his death. The NW has lost its true purpose as both men lament. And it is Jon's unfortunate attempts to get men like Marsh and Yarwyck to change their opinions that signify much of his arc
  12. While I think what Jon overhears in ASOS helps explain Yarwyck and Marsh's actions, I don't think it speaks to any of this being pre-planned. If it was pre-planned, they would have killed him a lot earlier and/or in a safer environment for them to do so. They've had multiple chances where they are alone with Jon, and again, presumably had they planned on killing him they would have done it before Jon allowed all the wildlings loyal to Jon through the Wall. Even in the last chapter, Marsh and Yarwyck are alone with Jon in his quarters. Ghost is there as well, which would obviously dissuade them from attacking then, but it's interesting to note that Ghost does not attack them here, despite attacking both Mully and Jon beforehand. Jon notes that Ghost "sniffs" after them as they are leaving with his tail upraised, but there is no ferocity or violence whereas beforehand, Ghost literally tries to bite both Mully and Jon's hands off. In his meeting with them, Jon discusses Hardhome and they "advise" him to not send any Night's Watch brothers and instead send all the wildlings, so they hopefully (in their minds at least), have fewer mouths to feed at the Wall. Afterwards, they are relatively cordial to Jon and accepting of his orders when he talks about dealing with the corpses and Cregan Karstark in the cells. I don't see any of this going down that way had it been pre-planned. Marsh and Yarwyck are blind-sided by Jon's reaction to the Pink Letter- not only is he confirming their worst fears of taking the wildlings south to attack Bolton and piss off Lannister forces (going back to their conspiring in ASOS), but it's a two-fer when Jon radically changes the plans to send whatever men Tormund asks for along with him to Hardhome. Yarwyck, Marsh, and Whittlestick are all present for Jon's reading of the Pink Letter in the Shieldhall- once he reads it and relays his plans they storm out. I think this was the exact moment they decided to kill him, figuring that they were screwed either way- in their minds, they had to dispose of Jon before the Night's Watch was depleted being sent to Hardhome AND at the same time before he could take the Wildlings South to attack Winterfell. Jon thinks Ghost's behavior is related to Borroq and his boars- obviously I think you are right and we are all right to think that is mistaken...Ghost knows what is about to go down or at least senses danger. Also interesting to note that Mormont's raven (who many speculate is being warged by Bloodraven) is described as extremely agitated by Jon. So I think both Ghost and the raven can at the very least sense Jon is in danger.
  13. As others have pointed out, this has been a topic of much discussion ever since ADWD came out. It really stands out as a reaction that can't be logically explained unless Wick was somehow forced to go after Jon. I mean, I suppose it may be possible that Wick is just cowardly and once Jon deflected his attack Wick was freaking out and couldn't think of any other way to react. Doubtful, but possible. Also interesting is the ending sentence there where Jon can't get Longclaw out of its scabbard- was there some kind of magic or sabotage at play? Or is there just a practical explanation- Jon is already wounded, it's cold out, he notes his fingers are stiff and clumsy. As noted above by @Faera, this was not a reaction by Marsh and Yarwyck based on their hatred of wildlings, but of fear for Jon leading an attack against Ramsay. Going back to ASOS, Marsh and Yarwyck were plotting with Alliser Thorne to make Janos Slynt the LC of the Night's Watch. This was all based on a political calculation of not wanting to piss off the Lannisters. Well, that's exactly what Jon was about to do. If the conspirators had really wanted to kill Jon because of the wildlings, presumably they would have done it before Jon let Tormund and all the wildlings through the Wall.
  14. Two scenes that have always stuck out to me, but especially moreso on reread, are Theon as the Ghost of Winterfell and Sansa building the snow castle of Winterfell. For Theon, it's just so damn depressing and emotional to picture him there, taking in everything he's lost and then you sort of add in Winterfell (and by the extension the Starks) as a character in its own right and take stock of all the misery and pain inflicted on Winterfell and its residents. Same goes for Sansa building Winterfell and dreaming of being back there.
  15. I completely agree with this. First impressions mean a lot, and I don't think Sansa was written to be particularly sympathetic early on in the books. I've grown to enjoy Sansa and her chapters immensely, some of her recent chapters in the Eyrie are among my favorites.