Tagganaro

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Everything posted by Tagganaro

  1. I get your point. I used to think that Mance didn't need Jon's authorization but now it seems pretty clear he does need Jon's authorization. Stannis is no longer at the Wall and Mance is presumed dead by Stannis's orders- Melisandre is lying to Stannis and everyone else about Mance. When she first runs the idea by Jon to send "Rattleshirt" and he doesn't know it's Mance yet, he threatens to decapitate Rattleshirt before he leaves. That suggests to me Jon has the power and Mance needs his authorization, which I tend to agree with as Jon is the one in charge at the Wall now that Stannis and his army have left. I've actually been rereading because I thought so too on Winterfell but now it's clear that Jon has no idea what Mance is up to. He later thinks to himself after sending Mance away "A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage. On the strength of those words he had loosed Mance Rayder and six spearwives on the North. Young ones, and pretty, Mance had said." So again, the question becomes why Jon would allow Mance spearwives to just rescue Arya from Longlake? And why would they need to be young and pretty? At one point Mance says having the spearwives there will help Arya to trust him, but it's still super unclear as he muddies it up with "I have a ploy" in mind that I need them for. Presumably his major mission is not a "ploy", so he's referring to something else. Yet there's no follow up from Jon. And then once Alys Karstark shows up, it becomes clear that Jon has no idea of Winterfell. He thinks to himself at separate points "But what had become of Mance Rayder and his spearwives?...What game are you playing, priestess? Did you have some other task for Mance?" Later on in a different chapter Jon thinks this: "Mance Rayder and his spearwives had not returned, and Jon could not help but wonder whether the Red Woman had lied of a purpose. Is she playing her own game? So is it a question of plausible deniability? Because there is no pushback from Jon on Mance needing spearwives, and the only clarification that Mance offers is that Arya is more likely to trust him if they are with him. Maybe that's it?
  2. I need to re-read, but I recall it being so unclear what Jon actually authorized Mance to do. Obviously as the leader of the NW Jon bears the responsibility for allowing Mance to leave on a mission, even if that mission was just to go to Longlake and retrieve "Arya"/Alys Karstark. Mance mentions a "ploy" he wants to carry out that he needs spearwives for. Jon's response is to ask Melisandre what Mance means and she replies "Your sister. You cannot help her but he can." It's just really unclear what exactly Jon thought Mance was gonna do and where he was gonna go. Why would Mance need spearwives to carry off a "ploy" if he was just going to rescue Arya on her way to the Wall? There are more than a few open questions regarding what exactly Jon thought Mance was doing and what exactly Mance intends to do, which I imagine we will be getting much more clarification on when TWOW comes out.
  3. Yeah, I have to go with Roose the boss, but I guess it's mainly because I admire his toughness and shrewdness. He just seems like such a boss, chilling in his pink clothes, barely eating anything, having leech baths during meetings. Anyone who can completely cow and punk Ramsay like he did I can't help but root for a little bit.
  4. There is nothing like it, ever. That's what all the complainers on here don't get. TV is not made this way and never will be again. I for one, along with most people I know, appreciate that, even when the show frustrates me. I feel bad for others who can not enjoy the show in that way, as it's truly one-of-a-kind and truly a really special show, one of the best ever made.
  5. That's one of those things where the show felt like they had to do it since it was such a major part of the books, but really wanted no part of it. So you just have it as more of a plot point and a stupid cliffhanger that Jon was resurrected but that's really all it is. I'd imagine GRRM has a much bigger plan for that and it will majorly impact Jon's character. I think the show for understandable reasons did not want to get too much into that. I'm hopeful that Season 8 will have a "Jon just wants to die in peace" storyline. It was sort of hinted at in his conversation with Beric and would at least mean there was some impact of him dying.
  6. I think the black brothers do this thing called "pulling out." And if that doesn't work, then yes, I assume that Mole's Town prostitutes have some kind of abortion method as it seems unlikely they could afford to have children. What? The bolded is absurd. Prostitution and vaginal intercourse have been around forever and it has never been equal to attempting to father children. In fact, the whole purpose of it is to have no strings attached sex in order to specifically avoid having children. Prostitution would not even exist if the prostitutes were getting pregnant consistently. You're conflating romance and no strings attached sex, which is kind of how many people seem to read the main point of the oath. The oath doesn't say you can't have sex, it says you can't have children and you can't marry. Many people read this as specifically prohibiting romance i.e. attachments that would distract black brothers or otherwise divide their loyalties. How is this different from prostitution anywhere else? I'd imagine most prostitutes don't "relish" the idea of having sex with guys they don't know or like or aren't attracted to. It's a business first and foremost and they do what they have to to make money and survive.
  7. Beyond that, it's not even clear that whoring is oathbreaking. I think we see that both Jon and Mormont think that it is oathbreaking, but damn that's pretty nit-picky . The oath just says take no wife and father no children- something unlikely to happen with the whores at moletown.
  8. C'mon now, this is the worst kind of condescending talk there is, suggesting that you have to be an idiot to enjoy the show or if you happen to be a more casual viewer? Please clarify if I'm misreading that because if I'm not, no point in discussion. Yeah, the Dorne stuff was unforgivably awful and the low point of the show. If memory serves, they initially waffled about including Dorne in the first place and didn't want to, but then changed their minds for some reason and tried to convince themselves the Sandsnakes would be huge hits. That was a failure on all levels- not only was the writing awful, but the acting, directing, and fight choreography were also awful.
  9. Oh gosh, this debate again lol. Been seeing this for 5+ years on this forum. As I have said before, Marsh is consistently described as a good "counter" but nothing more. Hence his role as a steward being the perfect and only role for him in the NW. I think in his heart of hearts he means well and is true to the NW, but he's also the perfect example of what is wrong with the NW as he's an old man filled with old hatred for the wildlings which clouds his judgment. In this way, I really don't understand why people feel the need to identify with Marsh and defend his actions. He is wrong and written to be wrong about his views of the wildlings and the NW's true purpose. We know Jon is right about this- it is not a legitimate plan to essentially stick your head in the ground and hope for the best, which is what Marsh is advocating. We know that Jon has the right of the argument about the white walkers and the wildlings. And again, Marsh is written specifically to be unlikable. He is a Janos Slynt supporter and I believe he's written as a guy whose judgment has gone missing especially after his debacle running Castle Black when he was tricked by Mance and wounded in battle. He has become cowardly and just wants to hide behind the Wall and hope for the best.
  10. If GOT started like this? The reason GOT started the way it did was because D & D signed up to do an adaptation of a set of novels they loved (or at least purported to). They are fans of the source material as much as anyone else, at least in GRRM's estimation who signed off on this. I think D & D care a great lot about the integrity of the source material and this kind of sentiment is unfair to them, who are stuck essentially writing fan-fiction because GRRM can't and won't finish the damn books.
  11. It's an open question in the books as well, one that people differ about it. I think it's safe to say he's above average and that Ramsay's line wasn't really truth, just legend because of Jon's exploits beyond the Wall.
  12. Has the quality of the writing declined over time? I disagree on that one to begin with. Seasons 6 and 7 were much better than Season 5 (the low point of the show IMO) and I'd say comparable in quality to a lot of the earlier seasons. I think the Olenna/Highgarden stuff is explained pretty well and clearly in the show. Olenna says herself the Tyrells were never fighters and their top military bannermen the Tarlys betrayed them. Olenna has no reason to run and hide at this point- her house and land is finished and she has nothing left to live for. That's what makes that final scene with her and Jamie all the better. She just wants to die and take Cersei down with her by revealing the truth about Joffrey's death.
  13. I think this entire issue really comes down to the Meereenese Knot. It's really that GRRM is just stuck with multiple characters from Westeros emerging on Meereen and in order to make the timelines work is in a basic holding pattern with Dany until it all gets resolved. I do think that with Dany arriving on Westeros that's a bit of an end-game move so there is stalling. Once she does that with her dragons I expect the plot to speed up significantly. But yeah, I imagine your fear about Dany's short time playing the game of thrones will come true- I don't think there will be much time for that as I can't possibly see Dany getting to Westeros before the end of Winds of Winter and if GRRM holds to 7 books, she will arrive in Westeros at the beginning of the final book.
  14. I think that generally speaking Arya and Sansa have resolved their issues and will side together. I see them coming at this more from a protective place than a "power struggle." I think both Arya and Sansa will have major issues with Jon bending the knee. Of course, it won't last long as the White Walker threat becomes more imminent and real, but I just see an episode or 2 of this sort of "conflict" that D & D love to create between the Starks.
  15. Yes, there will be a lot of drama between Jon, Dany, Sansa and Arya (and probably Bran as well). That much has been set-up numerous times throughout season 7. My guess is that both Sansa and Arya will be suspicious of Dany and protective of Jon. LF made a comment to Sansa about how Dany is beautiful and unmarried and that Jon may be looking for marriage with her- I definitely think we will see both Sansa and Arya suspicious of Dany and Jon's relationship once that comes out. I think we will also see at least Royce, if not the majority of Northern lords, coming out against Dany and against Jon bending the knee to her. I don't think that scene of Royce disparaging Dany and the Targs was included for no reason.
  16. Wasn't her "greater plan" to use the Reach and Dornish armies to blockade King's Landing? She didn't want to use the Dothraki at first as Tyrion correctly predicted (one of the only times lol) that Cersei would turn the lords of the Seven Kingdoms against her if she used primarily Dothraki and Unsullied foreign troops to take King's Landing. Hence the plan to use the Reach and Dornish armies. I'm not really understanding what you want Dany to do re: the Vale and Oldtown. The Vale is firmly sided with Jon/Sansa so it's repetitive and pointless for Dany to go after Sweetrobin when she can just go after Jon Snow. Oldtown- what purpose would visiting them serve? From the show's version of Oldtown, it's just a bunch of old men playing librarians with no military power behind them.
  17. I definitely enjoyed my 2nd read of AFFC and ADWD more than the first, but I still could NEVER get into the Dorne and Aeron chapters- just really boring and pointless to me. Plus, on 2nd read, knowing how ADWD ended so prematurely (it seemed the whole book was leading up to the Battle of Winterfell), it frustrated me even more trying to get through the boring Dorne and Iron Isles chapters that did seem, and still do seem, entirely unnecessary. I can agree on the Young Griff stuff being better on the 2nd read as well as Jaime and Brienne's chapters in the Riverlands, but never the Dorne and Ironborn stuff .
  18. I agree that at this point the show is all but finished. They moved at hyperspeed in Season 7 and moved through at least 2 seasons worth of plot in 7 episodes. Like just thinking back to episode 5, they had sort of a throwaway meeting between Tyrion and Jaime in King's Landing that took up 5 minutes of screentime- in a normal situation, at least an entire episode would be devoted to that meeting and how it took place. SImilar to that, I think Jon and Dany ideally would have taken a season or 2 to warm up to each other- instead it took place over 1 or 2 episodes. And yes, completely agree on Bran. He's always been ahead of the plot and now the show realizes they have this superpowered character who can end everything and they had to pump the brakes.
  19. I love this analysis...if only because I see readers consistently overrate LF and the game he is playing. Particularly watching the show where everyone is like "LF would never go out that way, he's too smart, etc." I think in the books it will be pretty similar, he'll overplay his hand with Sansa and she'll beat him at his own game. I'll be really interested to see if Varys plays any role in Season 8. He had that one scene in Episode 2 or 3 I think it was where Dany questioned his loyalty and the scene with Melisandre but outside of that he was pretty much entirely invisible all year. As a book reader, not to get too spoilerish, but I wonder if the introduction of the Golden Company will give Varys something to do in the show. Very doubtful it will, but I suppose it's a possibility.
  20. . Now I'm just imagining the Night King ordering that group of pricks away from him just to get a break from them. Imagining that Other who killed Royce as like the Others' version of the Mountain is hilarious.
  21. Well, they were pretty big pricks during the prologue when they mocked Royce and then laughed while butchering him .
  22. This. I'm fine with them wanting to end it, but there's no denying this season was insanely rushed because of the 7 episodes. I could just imagine if they had a full 10 episodes how much better they could build things up and maybe try to make more sense of certain parts of the story. I'm hopeful Season 8 will be perfect as far as pacing goes since all the episodes are supposed to be so long. They should have more than enough time to tell the story.
  23. I mean, your points are well taken, but I think they ignore the visual nature of the medium of television. You can call it "bad writing", but D & D know what they're doing as far as producing spectacle and working towards major visual moments. I agree, Bran breaking the Wall's magic like he did with the cave by passing through makes more sense. But there's no visual satisfaction in seeing that, there's no "oh shit" moment leading up to that. And that is antithetical to how TV is produced and created. D & D had this final moment of Viserion blowing down the Wall in their minds this entire season and they did what they could to lead up to it. I think the entirety of Episode 6 Beyond the Wall was pretty much nonsense (and D & D got called out for that as they deserved), but they were banking on Episode 7's final scene making up for that. I think they succeeded just based on viewing the reactions to that scene in particular and the season in general. I think the same problems exist with what will probably be the book version of getting the Wall down with the magical horn. That's just not visually stimulating and actually I could see that looking really silly if they had the Night King blowing some magical horn like that to get the Wall down. Furthermore, while D & D usually have no problem introducing shit on a whim to try and get to an endpoint, I appreciated their restraint here in not just having this magical mcguffin Horn of Winter or Joramun just show up this season with little to no buildup in prior seasons.
  24. Yes, as Minsc said, it SHOULD have been a trap. I would love there to be some clarification on this going forward, like they left it for Season 8 as a twist that we will find out more about the Night King and his plan and they will reveal that Beyond the Wall was a trap the entire time. Because it's the only thing that makes any sense of some of the happenings in Episode 6 Beyond the Wall.
  25. Great discussion here. There are simply too many posts to quote so I'm not doing it . Interestingly enough, the show is trudging up a lot of these themes right now re: Jon and Dany and bending the knee. The pride/safety of your people question is even tied directly back to Mance by Tormund. As with Jon and Dany, there has to be a question of whether the wildlings under Mance would ever have truly bent the knee had Mance done so. Being King Beyond the Wall has its perks, but for people that call themselves Free Folks blind unquestioned devotion is not one of those perks. While maybe a more Southron-oriented clan like the Thenns would be fine bending the knee, I struggle to see characters like Harma Dogshead and the Weeper ever committing to the King's Peace. And I think Mance knew that, which brings me to the second part of this topic- Mance's plan or lack thereof. In short, I don't think Mance truly had a plan. As the famous Mike Tyson quote goes, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." That's Mance to me in particular, and the wildlings in general. As Melisandre says numerous times, they are, and perhaps always were, a doomed people largely due them being on the wrong side of the Wall when it was built. I think Mance and the wildlings were facing their extinction and they knew it. Mance became King Beyond the Wall because he was the strongest fighter out of them and the smartest. He mentions there were numerous contenders for Kingship but that he killed a few of them when they wouldn't commit and the others largely fell in-line behind Mance (like Tormund and the Magnar of Thenn who were also contenders). I don't think there was ever a true plan in the sense of "Here's Step A- here's step B and so on." I think the plan largely boiled down to "Get South of the Wall." And obviously Mance's big concern is not the Night's Watch and the decrepit institution it has become but the Starks and other Northern houses who could come to the aid of the Night's Watch. So you can see where the Stark hostage comes in, especially with Mance's love of the story of Bael the Bard, something Mance couldn't resist playing out again in ADWD. Although I'd note I'm curious as to whether Mance knows "Arya" is not actually Arya seeing as how Jaime knew it right away and they last saw Arya at around the same time- which makes me really excited to find out what exactly is happening in Winterfell around the time of the Pink Letter and how much of it is true. I also think Mance in his heart is a bit of a softy- He didn't want to just destroy and murder everyone in the Night's Watch because he knows the real threat is there and the Wall needs to be manned. So he wants to avoid war like that at all costs, both to save his people and save the Night's Watch. That's where the fake horn and the diplomacy comes in.