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Everything posted by Tagganaro

  1. Agreed, although I still find it bothersome. Jon tends to be pretty introspective and comprehensive in terms of thinking about the things going on around him, but we get absolutely NOTHING here despite how major it is. Mance is asking Jon for spearwives and openly saying he has a "certain ploy in mind" that is clearly separate from his mission to retrieve Arya from Longlake, and not only does Jon then not respond at all to it, he then seems to forget that Mance ever said that shortly afterwards when he wonders what Melisandre and Mance are up to. Yes, I mean to me this is the most interesting thing about all of it...what are Mance's motives? What does he want here? Why is he so willing to risk/sacrifice the lives of wildlings when we know he cares above all about the welfare of these wildlings? Is he working on his "own ploy" or is the ploy sanctioned by Melisandre? Once you get his motives, then you can get a better guess of what exactly he is up to. Because if he's helping Stannis/Melisandre, it makes sense that he'd by trying to find a way in to help Stannis. If he's not and carrying out his own objectives here, who knows? I had that exact theory in mind when I wrote that . I certainly won't dismiss it but I do not subscribe to that theory. I'm kind of partial to it being Harwin or some member of the BWB as we know they are infiltrating the Freys it would make sense if they had someone on the inside with the Boltons too. This is so interesting...it could be read as Rowan admitting to the other murders but it also could just be her not responding to the allegation. At another point Theon again accuses them of murdering Yellow Dick and the others and Holly laughingly responds "How could it be us? We're women. Teats and cunnies. Here to be fucked, not feared." We know of course she's lying here, so is she lying about everything?
  2. Sorry I haven't quite had time to read through the whole thread. I love this topic was just wondering about some points made in the OP. 1. Do we know or have any indication that Mance and his spearwives are behind ANY of the murders at Winterfell? I know there is at least one specific time where a spearwife angrily denies being responsible for a murder which Theon accuses her of, but I can't recall whether it was only specific to that murder (I believe it was Little Walder). 2. I continue to be so interested as to what exactly is going on with Mance, Melisandre, and Jon. It really bothers me how Mance openly mentions needing spearwives to carry out a ploy separate from the rescue Arya mission in front of Jon, and there is absolutely no follow-up whatsoever from Jon asking what Mance intends to do. And then you essentially have Jon playing dumb afterwards continuing to wonder what Mance and Melisandre are up to despite them basically openly telling him they were up to something else earlier on. 3. We still have to wonder whether Mance is fulfilling Melisandre's/Stannis's agenda, or his own. Is Mance acting on his own accord? Is he bound to Melisandre's will by the ruby? If he's not, it might make sense for him to have some involvement in the Pink Letter, considering he would want access to his son (or at least who he thinks is his son) and probably wants to help Val out too. 4. I recall Theon openly wondering why Mance and the spearwives are so interested in how he took Winterfell. He puts it up to them wanting to escape, and I'm inclined to agree. Theon basically describes Winterfell as a prison at this point, all the entrances and exits are blocked off and guarded, and Mance is shrewd enough to know that perhaps he should not test Ramsay's cruelty by attempting to leave. 5. This is the most curious thing to me about it all- Jaime knows right away that "Arya" is in fact a fake. While he did spend more time around Arya than Mance, I do continually wonder whether Mance also should or must know that Arya is a fake. He certainly does not act like it, and Mance doesn't seem to quite be the kind of guy who would sacrifice lives of spearwives for something he didn't deem too important. 6. On the subject of the murder of Little Walder, I know there is some "forensic evidence" that Big Walder may be responsible (i.e. blood spatter and motive), but that does go against what we are shown about the character of Big Walder, who seems pretty put off by Ramsay's cruelty. Not sure that kid is capable of murdering a relative. What is more compelling to me motive-wise is this "Ghost of Winterfell" who Theon encounters. It's more in-line with the other murders, which seem to be vengence-motivated against the Freys and Boltons and Ramsay (one of Ramsay's boys had his genitals stuck in his mouth as I recall).
  3. Wise words spoken by Baelor Blacktyde before he was dismembered: "Balon's mad, Aeron's madder, Euron's maddest." I'd say Victarion sort of doesn't factor in really as he's too dumb- as he would say he's suited to obedience but in reality he just follows Balon and Aeron (and unwittingly Euron). I think Robert took the best of some bad options in allowing Balon to continue to rule, plus he probably had some hopes that after Balon died a Theon raised by Ned Stark could take over. As to the OP, there's definitely SOME merit to Balon's plan, but it's also unclear what he actually desires and that's important. Does he want independence or does he just want some land in the North to stick it to Robb and the Starks? It's sort of a situation where he takes Deepwood Motte and more importantly Moat Cailin and then goes "Now what?" Him dying and the Kingsmoot being called prevented us from seeing the outcome of his plan as Moat Cailin was left for dead, but I'd say there was also certainly some merit to Asha basically shitting on his "legacy" at the Kingsmoot and saying "nice we got some pinecones but now what?" I think he and the Ironborn could have held Moat Cailin for a while and trapped Robb, but there was really nothing more he could do afterwards except rely on suing for peace with Tywin and getting what out of it?
  4. Jon/Tormund/Mance is definitely a ship I could get behind .
  5. I don't really recall, but I don't think it was that she wasn't paying attention to what Barristan was saying, it was always that something major would come up as he was starting his story so he never got the chance to tell it. I do find it really interesting that GRRM saw fit to include this a couple times where he teases Dany learning the truth about Robert's Rebellion but doesn't get to actually hear it. Is is foreshadowing for a major issue? Will Barristan die before ever seeing Dany again and getting to tell her?
  6. I can respect this. For the record, I don't think Season 7 was bad overall, there were a lot of great episodes that I really enjoyed. Having said that, I still stand by my criticisms of 7.6, which I think is quite possibly the worst episode of the show all time. Nothing about it makes any sense or stands up to any kind of logical scrutiny.
  7. The whole idea behind the wight hunt is nonsensical to begin with. Let alone that it involves completely underestimating Cersei which is so out of character for Tyrion that it almost makes you question his motives and whether he's sabotaging Jon and Dany (which btw if the show pulls that off it would be pretty cool, I wouldn't necessarily dismiss it based on that weird look Tyrion gave in the final episode as boat sex was happening). But yeah, let's put aside that it goes completely against Tyrion and Cersei's established relationship to have Tyrion actually think that showing Cersei a wight would change anything. Let's go to the plan itself- I mean it's so ridiculous it only makes sense again if the NK is a greenseer and set up this dragon trap itself, maybe controlled Jon's mind and planted the idea to begin with . Jon of all people, who witnessed Hardhome and knows how dangerous the NK and the Others are, his plan is to take 7 people and a few redshirts north of the Wall...and then what? There is no plan whatsoever, it's just blunder blindly into a force that for all Jon knows numbers in the tens of thousands and hope for a lone wight to venture off on its own. Then you have no plan similarly to transport the wight back south of the Wall- if it wasn't for Dany saving the day on dragon-back you would have had the Magnificent 7 slowly wandering back south towards the Wall trying to carry a captured wight while presumably being chased by a bunch of pissed off wights and whitewalkers who would know/see that these guys just captured a wight. And again, like I said before with the timeline issues, this is such a self-inflicted wound. Why even have this wight hunt? It's a stupid idea and a stupid plan. As supposed fans of the books, I thought maybe D & D would go for a "Last Hero" kind of reboot with Jon and the magnificent 7. They're not venturing north of the Wall to capture a wight, they could be venturing there on some kind of Bran-inspired journey to make contact with a remaining child of the forest...you could make some kind of even mystical macguffin sword that could defeat the Others...or heck, you could have Bran tell Jon about Benjen being there and Jon wants to go save him. There were so many possible ways to approach getting Jon and co. (and Viserion) north of the Wall that may have been dumb, but not mind-numbingly stupid and lacking any bit of established character logic.
  8. I mean, I think Season 7 in general was far more "rushed" than other AGOT seasons, but I felt like 7.6 was particularly rushed. By that I primarily mean timeline -wise. I think the director pretty much admitted afterwards that the timeline was a bit of a mess- you got all these things happening in a very short period of time and it doesn't really hold up to the slightest bit of logic. I'm usually not one to complain about characters transporting across Westeros in Season 7, but this episode took that to a new level. Gendry's run through sending out the raven from Castle Black to Dany receiving that raven to Dany getting dressed in her winter ensemble to Dany's dragon ride...it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense as a timeline. You'd think at a minimum that entire process would take several days (I'd say 4 or 5 is the absolute minimum). However the episode undermines that by basically telling us Jon and co. spent a night on that frozen lake (IIRC even the director said afterwards that Jon and co. were supposed to have spent one night on the frozen lake). I've said this before as well, but it really bothers me even more that the show unnecessarily created this issue in the first place for no apparent reason...I mean maybe they wanted to spotlight that Gendry was a really fast runner for some reason , but if you just cut out Gendry's run, cut out the raven thing, and have Dany decide after Jon leaves to go after him then it makes much more sense. Even outside of the ridiculous timeline issues with the battle, I'd argue that the entire episode was also rushed. My favorite scenes of the episode were the great dialogue between "the Magnificent 7", wish we saw a lot more of it. But yeah, I do agree that of all the problems with episode 7.6, it being "rushed" is the least of the issues as far as nonsensical writing go.
  9. I've searched and not sure this has been discussed in its own thread before, but I noticed this in a re-read of ADWD. When Tyrion and the crew of the Shy Maid are sailing through the Sorrows, a lot of time is spent discussing Garin's curse, the Stone Men, and the Shrouded Lord. Garin's curse of course, according to Tyrion, is Greyscale which further connects the Shrouded Lord and the Stone Men to the goings on at the Wall with Val and Shireen. According to Ysilla, Garin's curse arose from Valyrian conquerors hanging Garin in a cage. He called upon his Mother who drowned them all, creating the first Stone Men. Here's her description of the stone men Valyrian: Cold breath of course invokes the Others. Tyrion then asks Ysilla and Yandry whether there actually is a shrouded lord, who is the ruler of the stone men. Yandry responds: The dead do not rise you say Haldon? Haldon then states that there have been numerous Shrouded Lords over the years, the most current one being a corsair from the Basilisk Islands. Here is what really caught my attention: Now of course, I couldn't help but notice the parallels between this version of the Shrouded Lord and the legend of the Night's King. Here is Bran's description of the Night's King: So not only do you have the same description of both women as being as "cold as ice", but the stories are eerily similar. Both the Night's King and the Shrouded Lord rule over their subjects, both were said to be created through their love of an otherly woman, and both involve talk of "rising from the dead." I should also note that the story of Garin and his Mother, as well as the dead do not rise line from Haldon, are eerily similar as well to the Ironborn and the talk of the Drowned God. Perhaps there is something connecting all 3 to each other?
  10. Where'd you get this idea from? Marsh and Yarwyck both want a full-scale extermination of the wildlings and they do not really differentiate- there are no 'good wildlings' to them and Marsh and Yarwyck are both openly against allowing ANY wildlings through the Wall. These are their response when Jon informs them that Tormund will be coming through the Wall soon. Interesting to note that afterwards Jon completely makes a fool of Marsh by repeating the words of the Oath. Marsh has no response, and is written as being exposed and made a fool of. "Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck."
  11. Completely agree, the water depths to me seem to be the next unexplored frontier or whatever you want to call it of magical creatures. I have not read TWOW spoilers, but I'd imagine/hope we will at the very least see some sort of sea monster/actual kraken action. The "dead things in the water" line has always intrigued me. Just the way it's put is creepy and evokes terrible imagery. Like Cotter could just say "wights in the water" but he specifically doesn't. It's been killing me on re-read- Why are Longbough and Illifer included in the story and given such a prominent role early on in Brienne's chapters? Of course, they could just be comedy throwaways, and there is something thematically relevant about Brienne's overall arc to them being windbags but generally honorable and nice people (I also see Nimble Dick in a similar light, although he may not be honorable he is not the scumbag he first appears to be either). This makes perfect sense to me- Stannis and his wife choosing the Night's King's fort as his home base on the Wall and Donal Noye's description of him "breaking" seem to me to foreshadow him eventually doing some more terrible things in order to gain power. Now that is really interesting! Yeah, I know this has been theorized before with that description of Val in the moonlight- there is similar imagery to how the Night King's Queen is described. Perhaps Val's role in Jon's "downfall" has already occurred- Jon is after all reacting to a scream that he initially things belonged to Val before he is attacked by Marsh and the conspirators. Ser Patrek is indeed attempting to steal Val leading up to those events. Now this is really interesting because if you really think about it at a macro-level, all the grey imagery of stone men and greyscale connects to Stark colors. When Mel thinks she's seeing Arya in her flames, she tells Jon about a "grey girl on a dying horse." I love these connections because they make Essos and Essosi culture seem far more relevant to the overall story. I've had issues in the past regarding all the characters in Essos because it just seems like a delaying tactic to end game material to have characters there- but if for example you can tie in the House of the Undying or Essosi religion to the fight against the Others in the North, suddenly it becomes more interesting. IIRC, I believe Moqorro tells Victarion something about the Drowned God being a thrall of the Great Other or something along those lines. Vic obviously doesn't like that statement but it is interesting how "what is dead may never die" sounds exactly like a description of raising wights by the Others. Then you get the procedure followed by Aeron and the drowned men of basically trying to drown someone and then bring them back to life with CPR. Certainly an interesting parallel to the Others.
  12. Yes, I think that's a bit of a repetition in the books, particularly with Melisandre (and you could maybe argue Val as well based on some theorizing about her). While Dany's not a man, Quaithe certainly invokes that idea as well. That's a good point about the Night's King's queen (wow say that 3 times fast lol). I would imagine that she was summarily killed somehow along with her King...but I'm not sure that's ever outright stated.
  13. I agree that he is definitely a puppet of the Harpy. He is not the Harpy. I am in the "the Green Grace is the Harpy" camp due to the Harpy being female. The Green Grace recommends and really sets up Dany and Hizdahr as a marriage and she even arrives to meet Dany with Hizdahr. She also really convinces Dany to re-open the fighting pits upon marrying Hizdahr. I agree that Hizdahr doesn't quite come across as evil (ignoring of course his pro-slavery stance). I don't think he tried to poison Dany and I get more of a general sense of incompetence and cowardice than any sort of conniving manipulative evil that I get from the Green Grace.
  14. I never get the sense that Jon really "wants" to let the Weeper through...he feels like he has to. The Wall and the NW is facing its extinction in Jon's mind, and he and Bowen Marsh have very different perspectives of how to face that threat. Jon's feeling, which I would say is eminently more reasonable, is that he needs every wildling, every living person north of the Wall, to help defend the Wall. Furthermore, I would say he correctly sees every living person north of the Wall as a future soldier for the Others, so not only is he getting more people to garrison the forts all along the Wall but he's depriving the Others of soldiers. Now I probably agree with Marsh and co. that the Weeper is the worst kind of scum- but Jon's point is why is that any different than some of the other awful criminals in the Night's Watch. To Jon, his reasoning is two-fold- first it's a pure numbers game to him like I said above and he feels he can't afford to allow the Others any more wights while also needing more men to garrison the Wall. Secondly and more symbolically, I think he wants to show ALL the wildlings that Jon and the NW can be trusted and that they need to band together to fight the Others.
  15. Completely agree that Val has feelings for Jon, and I would also say the same goes for Jon and how he feels about Val- it's clear he likes her and is into her, and I would say a lot of the melancholy nature of Jon's chapters in ADWD is his pining for Val and his regret over being elected LC and maybe not taking Stannis's offer? Although I can't imagine Jon could ever accept Stannis's offer of Winterfell as it was constructed, there's definitely regret when you see how miserable he is as LC, how he wants to help Stannis against the Boltons, and maybe even some projection in terms of the marriage he makes for Alys Karstark which in a lot of ways exactly mirrors the proposed marriage to Val. Good stuff. Definitely have to agree that Mance's headgear signifies his ability as an escape artist, also wings are a perfect symbolism of freedom, the ability to go anywhere at anytime and do what you want...perhaps nobody in ASOIAF embodies that more than Mance who has 'tasted the Dornishman's wife' over and over and over again. Mance's face is described numerous times as having laughing lines, which again solidify him as this kind of escape artist trickster character. To the bolded, yes I love this. Not sure I'd even say it's crackpot or slight crackpot, I think it is heavily foreshadowed by Mance and Jon's duel in the practice yard. Jon gets his ass kicked of course (seems like Mance may in fact be one of the best, if not the best fighters in the North), and we're left wondering how much of that is Jon being confused by Mel's glamour. But afterwards, Jon even thinks to himself "It would have gone differently if I had Longclaw." Definitely seems like it may foreshadow a later fight between Jon and Mance.
  16. yeah, if Tyrion has any dreams of actually ruling over Casterly Rock he will have to dispose of the Second Sons and Brown Ben Plumm first as he essentially signed everything over to them. Tyrion was forced into the Second Sons situation by Yezzan dying and the situation in general deteriorating for him and Penny and Jorah...I think it was his only play and a desperation one at that but knowing Tyrion he will soon turn it to his advantage by getting the Second Sons to turn coat again and go back to Dany's side. He then needs to hope that Dany will kill Brown Ben and destroy the Second Sons for their original betrayal.
  17. I mean, the most optimistic interpretation is that Ramsay simply saw the need/luxury of more serving-men and women to fill out his kennels, bars, etc. at the Dreadfort. I choose to see it this way because the alternative is pretty gross to think about. I'm kind of just hoping they're never mentioned again so I can go on in my delusion of them living out a quiet, happy life at the Dreadfort not too dissimilar from their lives at Winterfell.
  18. What I've found interesting as far as their relationship goes is how Jon describes Val's moods and banter, as Jon keeps using "playful" to describe Val. Val clearly enjoys flirting with Jon, and it brings out smiles from Jon which happens rarely. It's interesting to see how Val and Jon's interactions almost seamlessly switch from serious conversation to playful flirting back and forth. When Jon sends her to go get Tormund, she starts off playful, almost seeming like she's offering to kiss Jon for thanks (Jon literally pulls back from her when she gets too close to him), then gets serious asking about Jarl. When Jon gives Val the answer she wanted that the Wall killed Jarl: This pattern is repeated when she returns with Tormund. Val banters with Jon and Tormund, essentially inviting Jon to try and steal her (although also promising to geld him), then sincerely and seriously offers to help any way she can with the wildlings and Selyse. Val jokes about laughing in front of Selyse, Jon tells her this is serious, then: Shortly after that, Val watches and listens as Jon commands various NW brothers to do various things. Then Jon requests her presence with Selyse. Then Val makes Jon laugh twice on the way to see Selyse, making fun of Selyse's mustache and then completely destroying and belittling Ser Patrek by treating him like a dog. I don't know if any of this is important, but it's something that stuck out to me that Jon describes Val as playful 3 different times in a short period.
  19. To the OP, yes, I still don't really understand why Ned wouldn't think it was pertinent to reveal this information to Jon before he took vows for life. It may or may not have ended up mattering, Jon maybe would have decided anyway to go to the Wall since he really didn't have anywhere else to go, but it was still something you would think would be worth Jon knowing before he commits to holding no crowns and all that good stuff.
  20. agree with this. It is not a digression to discuss Alys Karstark, and indeed any other lady who may or may not be attracted to Jon, considering it is basically the whole point of this thread. I look forward to a different thread discussing Alys/Sigorn and their loyalty (or lack thereof) to Jon @Lollygag.
  21. Yeah, I could see Dany liking Jon, even without the show confirming it I'd see Dany and Jon both being attracted to each other. I'm not even sure Dany's taste in men is that peculiar, she's a young girl attracted to the bad boys, dangerous and confident men who can make her feel safe. I would think Jon would check a lot of those boxes for her, he's not really dangerous in a way that Daario or Drogo were but he's a guy who clearly can handle himself in a fight and has been through and seen some real shit go down. This exactly. I don't really know why Stannis is being talked about, we don't have any indication of any woman besides for his wife ever finding him attractive. But yeah, you gotta look at the whole package as far as attractiveness goes, and I'd say it's pretty clear Jon's not supposed to be particularly attractive or good looking on his own. But you can see how he's grown more into his own and how he's probably one of the best looking guys in the Night's Watch or at the Wall, add in the fact that girls like Val and Alys get to see him in his element as a leader and commander, get to see him be compassionate and treat them with respect, and you could definitely see why they would be attracted to him. Alys is probably the most loyal person to Jon and the Starks now. He saved her life. The context she is saying "Karhold Remembers" in is when Jon asks her to send any old men who want to die to the Wall, Alys is saying of course she will. And Sigorn does or did hate Jon, but I can't imagine he will any longer. Because of Jon Sigorn has a freaking castle south of the Wall .
  22. I don't know where you get the impression the wildlings with Tormund don't want to fight- I would guess most of them are the same warriors who were just extremely excited to follow Jon to Winterfell to go risk their lives to rescue Mance/kill Ramsay. They do want to fight, and badly. They were not present for Mance's burning and had no say there. Jon is not "massively unpopular" among the NW brothers either. He has the support of most, if not all, the rangers throughout ADWD. I should have clarified, yes I mean Castle Black and not the Watch in general. Given that we have never remotely been given any POV insight into Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower, I usually equate the NW with Castle Black or the rangings north of the Wall with brothers from other towers. I would imagine a good majority of the wildlings would not only be willing, but eager to avenge Jon. There was a compelling thread a while back about how Jon had essentially become a de facto king of the wildlings, and even if you don't buy that, you can buy that Tormund will be eager to avenge Jon if he can and that Tormund probably has the support of many, if not all of the wildlings there. Beyond "avenging Jon" though, the wildlings will still be motivated to act through hate of Marsh and the NW, not to mention the attack of Wun Wun (although that's probably pretty minor in the grand scheme of things). Jon just made a grand speech playing on the wildling soldiers passion to go rescue Mance, from his POV eliciting a load roar of approval and support. Now you have chief wildling racist hater Bowen Marsh sneak attacking the "general" who was just gonna lead a rescue party to go save your beloved Mance...can't imagine there won't be some very pissed off wildlings out for blood. I realize Selyse's retinue is small, but I'd still imagine the death of Ser Patrek won't go over too well. And yes, Bowen Marsh is also the chief Lannister supporter on the NW but I'm not sure Selyse would know that. In any case, she's gonna be a lot more concerned about Stannis's apparent death and her own safety so yes, I can agree on that. yes, agree on Stannis/Selyse, although 2 major things are still the death of Ser Patrek and Shireen/Val. There's gotta be some payoff to Val freaking the hell out about Shireen, don't know if she will take this opportunity and the wildlings will take this opportunity to try and kill the "unclean" child. yeah, I mean this is what I'm saying. There's no way Tormund and the wildlings don't immediately look to attack/kill Bowen and the conspirators, and I don't see a way where that doesn't lead to all-out conflict. Jon being dead/out of commission for a while is just something that makes sense to me. GRRM doesn't necessarily seem like the kind of writer who would go for a cheap cliffhanger that's resolved immediately...I would think he wants to play this out.
  23. I think if you're really struggling with the divergences and don't want to re-read all the books, you could just re-read Books 4 and 5. That's really where all the divergences start. If you're not motivated enough to do that, then I'd recommend just kind of trying to forget or at least compartmentalize everything that happened on the show the past 2 seasons as 95% of it is beyond the books and probably not based specifically on any future events in the books.
  24. I'm really kind of struggling to even see how the NW continues to exist after the events of ADWD. The NW is already severely depleted of man power, and with the killing of Jon there seems to be an almost obvious outcome of civil war among the different factions of the Wall. I mean, the wildlings outnumber the NW but there is some support for the conspirators Marsh and Whittlestick among the builders and stewards. I suppose it's possible that the wildlings just quickly subdue Marsh and Whittlestick but that doesn't account for the fact that the loyal Queen's Man Ser Patrek is now dead, killed by the wildling giant Wun-Wun. So you have at least 3 different aggrieved factions looking for each other's blood in a highly combustible scenario. I see a lot of blood being spilled and with the NW already outnumbered and undermanned, I sort of struggle with the idea of how the NW even survives this. Assuming the NW does somehow survive, I'm thinking Jon could possibly be out of commission for a while (maybe even the entirety of TWOW), if so I'd imagine by the time Jon wakes up the NW will be dead anyway. But yeah, I don't really see Jon going "Well I died so now I'm free from my oath" but I could possibly see an angry and pissed off Jon basically saying "screw my oath and screw the NW."
  25. There's nothing that supports the idea that only rangers are recruiters...indeed we can only make the opposite assumption based on the fact that Dareon is made a recruiter. I don't recall off the top of my head but I can't imagine he was made a ranger, I would guess a steward. So redo the odds to 1/500 or however many NW men there are, there's very little that supports the idea that Mance was there other than there being mention of black brother and singing...that's a really tenuous connection to Mance was there.