Jory's Shade

I'd give it a 20 if I could. I've been singing The Bear and the Maiden credits tune to myself all week. This episode was off the chain.

I get your POV S&D, but I am in the f*ck the Red God camp.

Our argument over Stannis is moot. Stannis is dead. "Your false kind is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore." Ramsey wouldn't lie, we all know that...

I read that quote and agree. Stannis is righteous. I wouldn't equate that to him being a true hero. I categorize Bran, Brienne, and Jon as true heroes. I also do not consider Stannis evil; rather, he has been corrupted by evil. He was very pious prior to turning to the Lord of Light and has become a great zealot for R'hllor since his conversion. Stannis is not a "believer" like Matthos Seaworth, but he understands the Red God gives him the power he will need to win the Game of Thrones given his inferior troop and naval position. I get that and do not fault Stannis for using all the tools at his disposal to take what is his by right, in his mind at least. I just am not willing to ignore that it is the wrong path. I feel the Red God is evil and corrupts righteous people with the lies it shows in its flames. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Thorros but consider him a rogue priest that is fearful of his visions and reticant to use the power of the Lord of Light, unlike Melisandre or the Red Priests in Volantis and Braavos. At the end of the day, I think the Lord of Light is the Lord of Lies and not a source of good. Dragons are pure magic made mortal. They are the most devastating power in the world that must be tamed to protect the world from pure uncontrolled magic being unleashed. Dany is the key to controlling this power. That is why she is the mother of dragons. I cannot wait to see what happens with Euron's horn and how that will effect Dany's dragons. I too have reservations about the Children of the Forest, but I am not sure I consider Bloodraven an abomination. I will have to see how the remaining Dunk & Egg stories and the final books come out, but I think there is still much to learn about how and why Bloodraven has become what he was when he met Bran. What we do know is that Greenseers and The Children seem to have more accurate visions than the Lord of Light's lies, and that GRRM has a grand plan for Bran. Also, the North still has the old magic, e.g. direwolves and giants, so that is why I am putting my skeptical eggs in the Children's basket. Hell, maybe Tywin and Cersei are right: the gods are just cruel, not just the seven...

Please direct me to this interview so that I can read it for myself. Thanks,

Berric and Lady Stoneheart are abominations not unlike a Wight. The "right gun" is Dany's Dragons. Get right with that. The good magic comes from The Children of the Forest. I'll take Bran's magic and Dany's magic over shadow craft anyday. Know that. Conjuring up shadow beasts and using dweomers to shapeshift and make faux lightbringers are weak parlor tricks compared to Dragon fire.

It is Melisandre that is evil. Stannis is just rigid and determined to take what is his by using whatever tools at his disposal. Stannis is not evil but has been corrupted by it.

Thank God JFK didn't think this way. Evil done out of necessity is no less evil. War and self defense is not evil. It is a human reality. Using shadow craft to achieve noble goals sells your soul and cannot be justified by the ends justifies the means. Personally, I hope the Prince Who Was Promised has a different lore than Azor Ahai because if Jon is to wield Lightbringer, it is my hope the sword was not truly forged in the heart of Azor Ahai's wife. I hold out hope that R'hllor's version of the return of Azor Ahai is different from Rhaegar and Aemon's version that we have not heard.

Melisandre goads an aging Maester into suicide. Kills Renly, kills the Castellan of Storm's End, wants to burn Edric Storm, does burn many others, and manipulates Stannis from the first moment. Her burning of the Lord of Bones was evil and a manipulation of the Night's Watch. She has done very little good IMHO, unlike Thorros, who could also and should also be criticized for necromancy. Her intentions are to do the Red God's will to save the world from the Others. "Evil" used to accomplish noble goals is no less "evil", and Melisandre is truly one of the most "evil" characters in the epic. Ramsey and Joffrey are hollow sociopaths, Melisandre is a far more complex "evil" antagonist.

I am not sure I agree with this. Stannis is rigid and determined to sit the Iron Throne because in his eyes, it is his by right. I get that. But, he has done evil and made "dark grey" choices to achieve that goal. Melisandre is "evil" out of good intentions. She believes the Red God is the true god and that her power is a testament to the truth of her believes, but her decisions and manipulations cannot be construed as anything but "evil", regardless of motivations and intentions. That is why Jon gave her such short shrift at the Wall. The show can paint them as "evil" without corrupting the nuance of GRRM's character development. At the end of the day, it is safe to chalk Stannis and the Red Woman up as antagonists.

Heh. You are correct; I just browsed the chapter. I could have sworn she said the "ashes in your mouth" quote, but she did not and Tyrion did. I must be getting old.

Agreed.

He essentially quoted Maggy the Frog's prophecy word for word. GRRM has said multiple times in interviews that D&D have insight into how the series will end. I think that scene was a tip of the cap to all those who assumed it be him over Jaime. We'll see if lefty ends up killing her, but that scene confirms Tyrion for me.

I had felt the series was going to alter some main events, but this episode addressed them and tied them back into the narrative. It left me very satisfied. The following is just quick list of important details this episode provided: Dragonglass and the likely Horn of Joramun were discovered at the fist of firts men; Bran and Rickon are in the Crypts; Tyrion confirmed Valonqar IMHO; Varys and Tyrion alliance begins; Tyrion making preparations and reading siege history leads foreshadows hulking, hellfyre boat bomb/chain = probable; Jon will kill the Half-Hand in hand to hand; Dany's dragons likely will mature due to the magic in the house of undying. A great set-up episode.

I also agree with Mummer's Wind that that chain would be nice to have included, but I get why they left it out.