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About Armstark

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  • Birthday 04/30/1987

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  1. What a joy to come back from a hiatus to find you where I was all along! This is exactly my thinking. I have a few things to add and ask though. Apologies if the following was already discussed in this thread, I didn't read past this comment. First, I would suggest that while WWs are hosts for the souls of dead Starks, dragons are the hosts for the souls of unborn Targaryens. Cold preserves but fire consumes. Danaerys' unborn child's soul is in all three dragons (A head must have three dragons). This has many interesting ramifications, for example it could mean that the Targaryen female line is the one that actually is 'the blood of the dragon' (they breed the dragons). I tried to track the Targaryen misscarriages that were deformed (like Dany's) and interestingly enough the last such happened on the day the Dance of Dragons started (where all the dragons died) until the day the dragons were reborn by Danaerys. But there were also non-Targaryen women who birthed such deformities, Maegor's wifes, so maybe both male and female Targaryens can sire dragon-souls. Maegor was the only child of the female Targaryen line though. It also provides a new insight into Baelor's Maidenvault. It can't be a coincidence that directly after most dragons died, all female Targaryen of breeding age were locked away. I think as long as there are dragons in the world this process of soul-transfer happens naturally if egg and unborn are in proximity (achieved through the Targaryen praxis of putting eggs in the cradle). Which is why Baelor locked them away while there was still at least one dragon alive (Sheepstealer). But if all dragons are dead you need something more dramatic to transfer the soul - Blood&Fire. This also puts a new spin on the Blackfyre conflicts because Daemon I. represented the female Targaryen line. How Danaerys was able to birth dragons when the female line was lost with the Blackfyres is anyones guess (I have a few). It would also mean that the male Blackfyre line and its extinction is of no significance. Second, I want to ask you where you think these old Stark souls were between the Long Night and the present story? Do you still believe that the WWs always were around (and the Stark souls with them)? But why do they need Craster's sons now if that is the case? You might remember my theory that they chilled in the Heart of Winter all that time. We know Heart Trees can store souls and we know the Heart of the Undying stored souls. Also if this get out clause ever gets used by Jon I am afraid Ghost will have to die to free the soul from the body.
  2. Some great stuff! I never even considered that Meera and Jojen don't know either who the KotlT was, I always assumed they were just telling the story how it is supposed to be told (mysterious) and were somewhat teasing Bran in the beginning. I am not really convinced of the skinchanging but if there was some I would go with the horse over the rider. One thing I feel is missing from the thread is the significance of Harrenhal itself. It seems to have been built in opposition to the Isle of Faces but has a Heart Tree as well. One Howland could have prayed to, but he chose the Trees he couldn't even see over the one at hand. If we assume that the individual Heart Trees have some character and agency themselves (maybe acquired through who is barried beneath),which is expressed through their faces, the laughing Tree seems to be in direct opposition to the hate Tree of Harrenhal. Remember that Rickard Stark just chose a descendant of Harrenhal as the wife of his firstborn. (The Tully's are somewhat conspicuous in their absence at the tourney of their biggest bannerman with whom they also have family ties). The (Tree)gods Howland prayed to in the story seem to exclude the one at Harrenhal: he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck Of course that could be read as just being the common saying amended with the Neck but it does make me wonder.
  3. I would not be as quick to dismiss stories of kings that reigned for hundreds of years and knights before they were knights. Knights is really just a different name for warrior used by the septons/maesters who wrote down theses stories and we know for a fact that it is possible to live and reign for way longer than the normal human lifespan. Theses stories might be true after all and an additional point of confusion for Sam when interpreting the annals and the infamous list. He thinks they have to be wrong because it is impossible that a LC can reign for two hundred years when it might have been the norm. As to the whole discussion around the fisherfolk quote I agree with Matthew on substance but with BC that we have discussed this a bunch of times to no avail, so I am not joining the fray.
  4. Prove it LmL, quote something other than fused tunnels at the Battle Isle. Something that shows human agency.
  5. Great post! I agree with much of your ideas and especially like the window-metaphor you added to my musings . it fits perfectly. The tower being haunted is something that crossed my mind before, sadly the Starks have forgotten so much they don't even know their own castle. But Ned still didn't rebuild/demolish the tower despite a decade of peace and summer. Mysterious. I challenge you to prove that it's not only the base of the tower that is fused stone at the Battle Isle. Show me a quote of something more than fused tunnels. Dragons being native to Westeros is not something just suggested in the World Book and is not just world building. It has been revealed way back in AGoT by Tyrion: There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old
  6. We know? How so?
  7. But Mance knows that Benjen never reached the Wall and thus could not have brought the horn to Winterfell. Mance also seems to have some indication that the real horn is buried with someone, why else search all those graves? So when he is in Winterfell and interested in the crypts it's not a stretch to believe that he decided he was looking in the wrong graves.
  8. Thanks for clearing that up, I understand better now., doesn't mean I agree though I think you are mistaken that every horn at the watch can be attributed to someone by its sound. There are multiple times a horn is blown by some watchmen that does not get attributed to someone. In fact there are only two instances where the blower is identified: And the second one is even called a sentry's horn, indicating that there are multiple horns just like it given to sentries. There is actually nothing at all in the text that indicates that the horn found at the Fist is the Horn of Joramun. We are obviously meant to wonder about it but GRRM presents no clues that it actually is the fabled horn. I disagree with the bolded part and the conclusions you draw from it. Fused stone can only be built by dragons. If you want gargoyles, towers and gates like Dragonstone you need dragon lords and sorcery but the simple, twisting tunnels of the Battle Isle can be built by dragons alone. No humans required. There is ample evidence of dragons in Westeros but no evidence of dragon lords before the Targaryens.
  9. I don't follow your logic. Joramun was not a men of the NW so why would he have a common NW horn? How could the old bear recognize the sound of the Horn of Joramun when it has been silent for centuries at least? What indication is there that the broken horn found on the Fist comes from the same grave as the big horn burned by Melisandre? We agree on one thing though, the big horn that get's burned is a feint as both Ygritte and Tormund admit. Oh and Melisandre is most definitely stupid but that is besides the point because the legend of the Horn of Joramun says nothing of preserving the Wall. Destroying it does not bring down the Wall, blowing it thrice would do it. The link I posted on the last page really goes into great detail on all the horns in the story, it is an interesting read! The broken tower leans close enough to the First Keep that Bran could make the jump. It also was the highest place in Winterfell, right above the crypts, the lowest part of Winterfell.
  10. Another feature of Winterfell that has not been discussed enough in my opinion is the broken tower. The catalyst event of the series is when Jaime pushes Bran out of the window. The plot is driven by that single event for most of AGoT and beyond. It is where our story really begins and I think it might be where it ends as well.So lets go back to AGoT Bran II: Bran is climbing to his favorite spot: atop the broken tower to give the crows his seed. A place no one ever goes but him because it is only accessible by climbing. Of course Jaime Lannister stops him before he can make it there and cripples him so that he might never climb (there) again.The only way he can ever go back to his favorite spot is by flying. (Not)Coincidentally this is also the only thing Bloodraven promises him: "You will never walk again, Bran," the pale lips promised, "but you will fly." You can read Bran's story as a fairy tale: Our young hero sets out on an adventure to get to the top of the tower but is thwarted by the golden knight. He does not give up though and goes on a quest to learn how to fly, so he might get to the top of the tower another way. He must endure many hardships and loses some friends on the way but finally he finds someone who can teach him and now he has learned how to fly. (to be continued)So what is so significant about that tower? How does it relate to our real story and not just the fairy tale version? I think it is the tower of the Night's King, the other Brandon Stark. In the mummer's version of our story the Night's King has a brooch or sigil and the best explanation for it I have seen is tower over the skull of a crow. Think about it, if the Night's King really was a Stark might there not be some place in Winterfell that belonged to him, where he was at home? Of course it would have to be in the old section of the castle like the broken tower.Why did no Stark ever repair the tower? Supposedly it was struck by lightning some 140 years ago: His favorite haunt was the broken tower. Once it had been a watchtower, the tallest in Winterfell. A long time ago, a hundred years before even his father had been born, a lightning strike had set it afire. The top third of the structure had collapsed inward, and the tower had never been rebuilt. Sometimes his father sent ratters into the base of the tower, to clean out the nests they always found among the jumble of fallen stones and charred and rotten beams. But no one ever got up to the jagged top of the structure now except for Bran and the crows. I find it rather odd that the Starks have a broken tower. Do you think there is such a thing at Highgarden? At Casterly Rock or even Horn Hill? I doubt it. 140 years and a dozen Lord Starks and nobody ever thought about rebuilding it? Or at least removing it? Why??? 140 years ago is also close to the time Winterfell was visited by the Targaryen court and their dragons, when the first night was abolished and the Nightfort abandoned. Somewhere off in the distance, a wolf was howling. Crows circled the broken tower, waiting for corn. They are still waiting. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. Might this be the same tower? It is also the tower Mance/Abel chose to make his home in Winterfell.
  11. Who do you think placed the horn there and how did they acquire it?
  12. Fair enough, I look forward to the timelines thread then. Let's get back to Winterfell. Where have we seen the Horn of Joramun? Or do you mean the one Melisandre burnt? It wasn't the real one as Ygritte admitted to Jon but Mance has likely continued his search for the Horn of Joramun south of the Wall. It certainly would explain his interest in the crypts and if you follow the superb analysis here, he might already have found it and blown it twice (only three blows trigger the whole magic effect). A long low moan, it seemed to hang above the battlements, lingering in the black air, soaking deep into the bones of every man who heard it The sound of this horn corresponds with the one in Jon's dreams: His dreams were strange and formless, full of strange voices, shouts and cries, and the sound of a warhorn, blowing low and loud, a single deep booming note that lingered in the air Mance might be the first in generations to visit the lower levels of the crypt because the graves of Joramun's contemporaries Brandon the Breaker and maybe even the NK's are down there.
  13. I agree. Most people forget that dragons were once native to Westeros and yet there are conspicuously absent from Westerosi history, Leaf doesn't even mention them: What about the dragons?! Both Maesters and CotF seem to have purged dragons from history, with only a few folk tales surviving (Selwyn of the Mirror Shield, Dragon slain on Battle Isle). To what end? I think it's neither. It's not a story of knights before there were knights because it's not even called the same (Valyrian steel), Sam and Jon both don't know the term dragonsteel although it is self evident what it means. It is what those swords were called before there was Valyria. And no matter how you rearrange the timeline the Last Hero always comes before Valyria. The best explanation is simply that the Last Hero had such a sword but that the knowledge to forge one was lost or rather suppressed likely because it involves sacrifices and dragons.
  14. The Targaryens built their castle on a hollow hill as well and bury the ashes of their dead deep underground, only accessible through a well with a circular staircase... The Targaryen role in things to come is too easily dismissed in heresy for my taste. They might be new to Westeros but their knowledge is old.
  15. I thought so Two more things for thought: The Blackfyres flipped the Targaryen coat of arms (and the words?) and the Targaryen maternal line left the family tree with Daemon Blackfyre. Edit: and of course one more flip I forgot to mention, the one Aemon notices immediately, female and not male.