Woman of War

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    Those who ride the dragon will not dismount

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    Woman of war

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  1. We all know now that Shireen will die in the books and actuallly there are enough hints in both book and show, so everybody could see it coming. But especially in the show Shireen was far more than a tertiary character. And the performance and that fragile charisma of Kerry Ingram made me care for her even more than for Sansa, knowing that she is doomed. I guess I am not the only one here, so for many the true emotional shock was Shireen, not Sansa. Of course one can compare the emotional impact of two characters that originally were close to main character and close to nothing! Emotions are something that just happens. It did happen: Shireen climbed the emotional importance ladder while Sansa stayed where she was. And it was Ingram, together with Cunningham and Dillane of course, who made it happen. A rare chemistry. So - to me and maybe to many others - Shireen's fate was far more touching than Sansa's - so far.
  2. No, that was not the reason. But Tyrion intended to take over the responsibility. Sandor saved Sansa many times?? He had a knife at her throat as well. Of course Sandor rode into the crowd with his sword to save Sansa! Tyrion doing so would have been a futile enterprise, LOL. Sandor did nothing to save her from Joffrey though - so far, we will never know if he had really defended her against the other Kingsguard guys and Joffrey himself. And he never offered to take her with him when he was sober and could have successfully planned her escape. Sigh, this has been discussed so often in these forums. We can simply agree to disagree, you will not convince me and I will not convince you. Sorry.
  3. We did not get that out of our ways. Do you think that a character is more entitled to her physical integrity if she has more chapters? Apart from that Shireen got far more space in the show than in the books, probably due to the great performance of the actress. In many of her book chapters Sansa is the narrator, there to observe what happens around her, seeing a lot and understanding not so much, so that the readers can draw their own conclusions. Those chapters are not first of all about her. Apart from that, how much a character is loved , how intense the emotional impact of her suffering is does not depend on chapter count.
  4. Whether Joffrey was Jaime's son, Robert's or the stableboy's has nothing to do with both Sandor's and Tyrion's moral dilemma in the throne room. And Cersei's or Jaime's alleged involvement in Bran's fall hasn't either. It was for sure not Tyrion who pushed Bran! And at that point of the story Tyrion had no idea that this marriage between himself and Sansa would ever happen. His paramount concern was Jaime and yet he went out of the way for Sansa. Your post lacks logic, A Ghost of Someone. edit: this debate is totally off topic anyway
  5. @Alayne's Shadow The rape of Sansa was not about Theon. Theon or what happened on Theon's face was rather a way to mirror what was happening to Sansa for the audience. Is it sexist to make a female character suffer for man drama? Then why would it not be sexist to instrumentalize Shireen and to burn her for Stannis' man drama? If you imply that the rape of Sansa is only about Ramsay then you negate all influence of this deed on Sansa's future characterization. And obviously the same would count - violence against women presented in a story - if Martin himself ever wrote about the abuse of one of the more important female characters by or in the presence of an important male character. And 90% of all critics do not agree in their opinion of that plot event. Maybe 90% of the critics you chose to read.
  6. I believe that it is perfectly understandable that Tyrion cared more about his brother than about some random child, or that he saw this random child first of all as means to get his beloved brother back. A totally understandable reaction. And yet Tyrion went out of his way - out of compassion - and risked his position or maybe his life when he stopped Joffrey from torturing this child. Would Sandor have risked position and life in the same situation? We will never know since Tyrion entered before it came to a potential clash between Joffrey and Sandor. It is always evil to take child hostages in our present day moral code. And yet Ned did. Sansa was a hostage just like little Theon. I think that Tyrion was perfectly entitled to see Sansa as means to Jaime's wellbeing within that moral universe. He only could be expected to defend her at all costs after he had taken over responsibility for Sansa's fate by agreeing to that forced marriage.
  7. You are absolutely right about Sansa and the plot line she was given - and the reasons some posters react to it. And you are right that sending Sansa to WF instead of having her organizing parties in the Vale was a good move. Though I am quite sure that Martin did not write that cute TWOW chapter without a reason: it is the misleading foreplay to something dark and horrible that will happen to Sansa in the books as well. The author can take his time to get to the big shock where the show's time is limited. And they needed a character people are emotionally engaged in as center of the Winterfell part. Jeyne would not have done the job. Just like burning a somewhat pale and random Shireen would not have made Stannis' story compelling. And, frankly, what happened to Shireen had a far bigger emotional impact on me than what happened to Sansa. Sansa is, after all, still alive. But what was indeed poorly done was the way to get there. A disservice to both the characters of Baelish and Sansa. She went along with his idea so easily, no challenge there for him to trick her into following his plan. Can she be so foolish? And where is the challenge for Peter the mastermind!? Then dumbing him further down when he does not know about Ramsay's hobbies! The show lacks complex and sophisticated villains, they simply cannot afford to simplify Baelish! I only hope that he gets more time for his sinister works and won't simply get Yet I miss some of the mystical magical atmospheric parts in Tyrion's travels. And other readers will have their favorite chapters they miss dearly.
  8. I do like it! Cersei is far more interesting and complex in the show than in the books and Jaime continuing to love her is far more understandable. Apart from that it enriches Jaime's story if he is more torn between Brienne and Cersei. His emotions are complicated - so what!? In the books I disliked jealous Jaime for ditching Cersei because she allegedly fucked someone else. You don't throw away a so very important lifetime love and sibling relationship because your male pride is hurt. It was not first of all the rejection of Cersei's political methods that moved Jaime, he was personally offended. Why should I like that?
  9. It Making Sansa disappear into story oblivion with Sandor would certainly make her completely irrelevant for any story outcome since that way both characters would have no impact on the important plotlines at all. They could just as well die before all is said and done. . I do not believe that their characters are so unimportant that they get taken out of the equation by walking out of the plot together and being forgotten. I can only see show and books giving them gravity together by a highly dramatic and painful tragedy, not by them seeping out of the plot. Riding into sunset won't happen I guess, too lame. It would of course be a wonderful Martinesque crackpot if Sansa decides for Tyrion - in case Tyrion decides for Sansa -, their marriage by whatever twists is invalid and yet these two decide to marry again out of free will. Delicious.
  10. This! Well said!
  11. I should try to find a way to say it in a positive way instead of "I don't......." I like Bran but I don't want him abused as plot device. I absolutely don't want Bran to be deus ex machina, meaning whenever a plot problem shows up Bran with his weirwood net helps out and whispers the right answer into protagonists' heads. I would hate that from Martin himself as being the easy way out of plot problems, just like I would hate it from the show. And I am afraid I will be disappointed if they choose the cheap solution of Bran Knowitall in the spoiled possible Arya/Sansa/Baelish conflict. The show wants to save time, avoiding a far more interesting clash between the sisters because of Baelish - which might though be distastrous and go to a bitter end. I hope that spoiler version is wrong: the sisters embrace and the interesting villain is taken out of the equation in season seven already. Too early, let him continue to do his sinister works! Now positively said: The not so little thing I want is that characters find their own solutions for conflicts, for better or worse. I accept that those conflicts might end horribly for them, if only the oh so magical but cheap support from Bran does not happen. A way to give the characters their happy outcome for free imo.
  12. I want Tyrion to play a very important role again like in the first seasons instead of being a supporting character to Dany or Jon. ........not a little thing though
  13. Sorry, my mistake, wrong thread. Sometimes I still look into book threads though not very much new can be discussed by now. I did not pay attention. You are right of course. Delete whoever wants to. But I think something similar, though maybe not as brutal, some guy who makes use of her, will happen in the books as well.
  14. Why in childbirth? Dany could have a healthy child, could survive giving birth as a perfectly healthy woman and then decide to go and save the world, sacrificing herself. Being a young mother would not have to stop her from being brave and creative. Nor would being a young father stop Jon. The result though might be the same in the end: there will be a child with one or both parents dead and Tyrion takes the responsibility for his double nephew. Or for the baby of two people he cared for. There has always been the possibility in Tyrion's story to do better than his father Tywin did: will he poison the wells? No, he won't.