Melifeather

I find this statement confusing with regard to how I understand the term "literary concept". If anything ASOIAF has multiple concepts. One striking example is the North remembers and that Winterfell has forgotten, not to mention that there is a growing threat coming from the North. Let me back this up a bit with the differences between "idea", "concept", and "premise". The "idea" of ASOIAF is a fantasy world where magic exists. The "concept" is to suggest that there are secrets hidden and that there are forces working to either keep them concealed or to reveal them. The "premise" is to have an archetypical hero (or heroine) that will save Westeros or at least as many humans as they can. Are you saying ASOIAF has no concept?

The reason why GRRM has written so much about the Targaryens is because doing so won't spoil the ending of ASOIAF. I suspect that the SheWolves tale is too spoilery.

I was snooping around your profile after reading your Jonquil/bees/Sansa essay and stumbled upon this post. I have to say, I think you and I have more in common than you might think! I see almost the exact same things you are seeing, but a couple years later than you. I’m going to link a current post where I was proposing much the same as you. I hope you’ll read it along with an OP that I did on Shadrich. Links to both: Shadrich OP: https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/469/harrenhal-twilight-zone-play post link:

We could discuss the most far-fetched theories we have in the next Heresy. That might be fun! They must be at least plausible, but I'd love me some tin foil to laugh at during the holiday!

We do like to explore unpopular theories, but Heresy does not have any set theories that it endorses or presents as having come to a consensus, although Black Crow does have a number of his own that he rolls out from time to time. The purpose of Heresy is to provide a platform where we can freely discuss alternate theories or ideas that don’t get a lot of traction anywhere else, and do so with good humor and respect for all participants.

I've got a number of theories that I hope will be confirmed or debunked in the next book, but I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion thread. That's not what this thread is for. So if anyone wants to discuss any of the following, please bring it the current Heresy thread. 1) Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents 2) Ashara is Wylla and still lives at Starfall under that identity 3) Rhaella is Septa Lenore 4) the Lannisters orchestrated Lyanna's abduction in order to undermine Rhaegar using a suit of armor that looked just like his. 5) The Knight of the Laughing Tree was an instance of consensual skin changing with a bit of magic. Howland was the knight and Lyanna skin changed the horse. 6) the wildlings are the Others 7) the blizzard at Winterfell and the surrounding north is the Wall disintegrating 8) Lyanna was found in the ruins of Whitewalls 9) Maegor's Holdfast is the real tower of joy 10) the three Kingsguard, Whent, Hightower, and Dayne, were guarding Elia and the children. Ned and his men fought them during the Sack, keeping them engaged and distracted, while Gregor and Amory raped and killed Elia and the children. 11) Young Griff is Aegon. 12) the titled chapters beginning with AFFC tell two stories with one hidden amongst the parallels, symbolism, and metaphors.

I wish I had something more meaningful to contribute than what I'm about to say...IMO Renly's peach is symbolic of a maidenhead. Peaches look very much like a woman's pubis mound - camel toe and all! Renly and Stannis were parley-ing, and under normal circumstances when two opponents are negotiating, a marriage alliance with a maiden is part of the transaction. Think back to Catelyn's transaction with Walder Frey. Marriage alliances were made, not just for Robb, but for Arya too. Two maidens were needed to seal the deal: a Frey maiden and a Stark maiden. When Brienne encounters some former Brave Companions that included Rorge and Biter, Biter took a bite out of Brienne's cheek. Symbolically he was taking a bite out of a "peach" - Brienne is still a maiden and her maidenhead intact. I'm actually glad that GRRM didn't have Biter bite Brienne in the "peach" which is very near a pair of "cheeks". The Reach is known for growing peaches, but the true meaning behind "the bite" might be an indication that the Lannisters were stealing maidens rather than securing marriage alliances? Like you say, in the near future the Lannisters do make a marriage alliance with Rohanne Weber - what was Gerold Lannister? Her sixth husband???

I actually believe Sansa will be raised up as Queen in the North, and not just because the mummer's version did that, but because I believe history is undoing itself. We have already witnessed several historical events reoccur and with opposite outcomes. A rough timeline has the Children "helping" the Last Hero, the Wall built, the Nights King defeated, the arrival and rise of the Andals to the throne, the Faith Militant defeated, the arrival of Nymeria and her marriage to Dorne, and the arrival of dragons and the Targaryen dynasty. These same events are reoccurring, but out of order: The Targaryen reign ended when Jaime slew Aerys. Arianne Martel (representing Dorne) is on her way to propose a marriage alliance to Young Griff (representing the Rhoynar). If its true that history is undoing itself then either Young Griff will refuse an alliance with Dorne or the marriage will be a disaster. The Faith Militant appears poised to dismantle the Andal's hold on the Iron Throne. Lord Commander Jon Snow was stabbed multiple times by some of the men of the Watch. It appears he may be resurrected to life as the Nights King and ally himself with the wildlings to free the King Beyond the Wall and take Winterfell from the current Lord. The blizzard at the Wall and Winterfell appears to be the Wall disintegrating and blowing away in the form of a winter storm. Which leaves us with the origin story of the Last Hero. What exactly did the Children do to help him? Waymar Royce in the prologue of A Game of Thrones seemed to repeat elements of Old Nan's story including a broken sword and the deaths of his companions. Waymar rose again as a wight, harder and stronger, so maybe the Children raised the Last Hero from the dead? But what happened before the Last Hero? We know some of the First Men aligned themselves with the Children and signed a Pact....but before even then we have the tale of Durran Godsgrief marrying Elenei who was the daughter of two gods: the sea god (water) and the goddess of the wind (air). Its said Elenei "chose" to be mortal, which means she was originally god-like, but became human. Does that even sound like a factual account? IMO this is actually a fanciful oral history that explains how humans learned how to work magic. I think the Children are trying to correct some past wrong and I think it has to do with "magic". They introduced the use of magic to defend themselves from mankind, but the unintended consequence was that mankind learned how to use magic too. Sansa is the current version of Elenei just as her aunt Lyanna was before her. Lyanna was promised to a Storm Lord who was raised at Storms End - the fortress built by Durran Godsgrief thousands of years ago. Lyanna died before the Storm Lord could marry her, so the historical event has passed onto Sansa - or Arya. It could be either daughter of Winterfell. It seems like Lyanna's fate got split with Sansa and Arya each getting half. Arya has already become "no one". Symbolically, she is dead. This should leave Sansa - the daughter of parents who seem to have reversed roles from Elenei's - to "live", or become god-like. Elenei's father was associated with "water", but Sansa's mother Catelyn has the water imagery of the Riverlands. Elenei's mother was associated with "air", but Sansa's father Ned is associated with the cold winds of winter. Sansa will be the one to "deal" with magic, but I don't think she has to die to resolve it. After the Nights King defeats the Lord of Winterfell, I think he'll give the castle to his sister, and Sansa will become the first Queen in the North.

Hi Seams. Just a quick note to let you know I'm following along. I agree "wells" have significant symbolism in the story. Wells, and drowning enemies with water is associated with Lannisters. The text implies that Cersei pushed her friend, Melara Hetherspoon, down a well after hearing their fortunes by Maggie the Frog, while her father, Tywin, is famous for drowning the Reynes of Castamere. Wells are also inverted towers, which are connected with death and rebirth. The tale of Ashara jumping off a tower is symbolically confirmation that she's not actually dead, but reborn into another identity. Lastly, when Arianne had Arys lead Myrcella to meet up at a well, the reader subconsciously felt the impending doom that signaled the attack on Myrcella and the death of Arys which occurred later on.

First I must beg Seams indulgence before she thinks I'm veering off topic again, but I believe what I'm about to share is still relevant, because it still applies to the lemon symbolism. I enjoyed your lemon-did-ya-poo-pants thread, and I'd like to offer you my explanation for the change from Tyrosh to Braavos: it has to do with the dragon eating its own tail inside out. The George wanted Arya to gain the sword skills Lyanna lacked, and in order to do so she needed to go to Braavos to become a water dancer. But, because of the changing of places that took place between Lyanna and Ashara during their mirrored escapes from Kings Landing just like Arya and Sansa, he needed the destination to either be the same or a mirrored reflection of the place as where Ashara's child would go. Ashara's child? Isn't Daenerys the child of Aerys and Rhaella? Naaahhh. Me don't thinks so. Either the George actually changed the location of the red door and the lemon tree from Tyrosh to Braavos, or it's a case of Braavos being a north to south reflection of Tyrosh. Not to be confusing, but Braavos is also an east to west reflection of Bear Island. Recall how Dany recalls Willem Darry's physical description as being hairy as an old bear like a Mormont, and how suspicious Jorah Mormont's selling of "poachers" seems. These are all effects from turning the ouroboros inside out. Recall Quaithe's instructions to Dany:

That was quite an extensive and persuasive list of the bitterness of lemons!

Maybe its more that Bloodraven is more skilled as a greenseer than we think. I think many readers wonder what the point is to be a greenseer if you cannot manipulate the past nor communicate with the present, but if time is a wheel and history repeats itself, then by manipulation of the wheel and who the events happen to, you can affect the future. Bloodraven is like a faceless man in this regard, the wizard behind the curtain. Using his historical knowledge of Ashford and using the wheel to tweak events at Harrenhal to affect a future outcome, would really make him the Master of Games. Leo doesn't have to literally be Bloodraven for us to understand that the symbolism applies to Bloodraven.

One of Dunk's horses was named Chestnut, and the way he dreams that he cried over the horse's death is a connection to Ned's grief over Lyanna. "Chestnut" also is associated with telling an old story or venerable old joke, as in "that old chestnut". Anything trite, stale, or told too often, which in turn should make us very suspect of the "official" story of how we think she was kidnapped or died. The phrasing of "a man must eat" also sounds like Jaqen H'ghar.

I am thinking that this is supposed to be an echo of the past, and a clue to help us identify who Lem Lemoncloak really is. IMO Arya retraced Lyanna's path when she escaped Kings Landing. First with Yoren - a man of the Nights Watch, secondly abducted by the Brotherhood Without Banners, and lastly with Sandor Clegane. I theorize Lyanna's flight was quite similar, but either a little out of order, or completely in reverse. This is where Lem Lemoncloak's pissing and soiled white cloak enter the equation, as well as the connection to the Brotherhood Without Banners. He's wearing the Hound's helmet so that we make the connection, not just to Sandor Clegane who was with Arya, but to the man that was with Lyanna in the past: Ser Arthur Dayne. Arthur was supposed to be the finest knight, but he may have been more like how Sandor views knights. I think Lem Lemoncloak is Arthur Dayne. What I haven't sorted out yet is what Brienne's hanging is supposed to mean with regards to the past. The Brotherhood Without Banners is an echo of the Kingswood Brotherhood, which was an outlaw group that kidnapped nobles and held them for ransom. It's a theory of mine that Kevan Lannister, Cersei, Jaime, Sumner Crakehall, and Merrett Frey, along with Robert Baratheon as the Smiling Knight, were the true identities behind the Kingswood Brotherhood, and that they were involved with abducting Lyanna. They dressed Robert in armor that looked like Rhaegar's so that he would take the blame. Jaime recalls the Smiling Knight as being the "Mountain of his boyhood. Half as big, but twice as mad." There was a time when Robert could have easily fit that description - not just the physical size of him, which Ned described as a maiden's dream, but his charismatic nature, smiling and laughing with friends and enemies alike. One of the reasons I suspect Mance is Rhaegar is because it would parallel the first segment of Arya's escape with a man of the Nights Watch. I think GRRM meant for Ashara and Lyanna to seem sister-like in the stories. If Arya is retracing and mirroring Lyanna, then Sansa is retracing and mirroring Ashara. I've already went into great detail above to explain why I think Lem Lemoncloak is Arthur, so if he is Arthur, then it makes sense that he's unifying the symbolism associated with Sansa. Arthur is Ashara's brother. Sandor had feelings for Sansa, whom he called a little bird. Arthur is presented as Sandor's complete opposite, but I suspect they are more alike than outward appearance and reputations would suggest. I really like this! Especially since I suspect the "defensive shield" that becomes an offensive weapon is in reference to the Wall. The warding on the Wall holding water magic prisoner is unraveling. Maybe it was unravelled on purpose in order to use it as a weapon? I haven't read through this thread in its entirety yet, so I apologize for jumping ahead. If I seem to be wandering outside the scope of this thread its because I'm trying to provide some background information to support my positions.

@Seams I hope you haven't read my post above yet, because I keep updating and changing it. I have to stop! lol, but I my mind is running a mile a minute making additional connections between Dunk's stories and the Bael(or)/Rhaegar twist. I came back yet again to bring up Tanselle, the marionette controller pulling the strings. Of course this is a parallel to Ned looking for Lyanna! Or, my preferred explanation right now is that Ned did not go to Dorne to look for Lyanna, because I believe he found Lyanna early on in the Rebellion before he called his banners. But Bloodraven, the puppeteer, has been sending Ned recurring dreams to make him associate his trip to Starfall to return Arthur's sword with when he found Lyanna. I'm not sure why Bloodraven wants to confuse Ned, because he got what he wanted: Jon at the Wall. The parallel to Tanselle then is that Bloodraven was pulling the strings and caused Ned to believe he went to Dorne to look for Lyanna. Maybe he wanted Ned to forget what he saw at the tower of joy? If my theory that the tower of joy was an earlier parallel to Mirri's tent revival of Drogo, then someone tried to resurrect Rhaegar and succeeded, except that his appearance changed and he became Mance. Rhaegar/Mance's trip to the Wall would be a repeat of when Maester Aemon accompanied Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven) to the Wall. If Ned saw too much at the tower of joy then Bloodraven needed to conceal Mance's true identity from Ned. Thus the repeated, old dream. This doesn't mean that Rhaegar was totally blameless for Lyanna's disappearance. I still don't think he purposely went out looking for her. I think her abduction was actually plotted by Cersei and Jaime. Cersei was aware of her father's plan to support Robert in the Rebellion and she was trying to prevent Lyanna from becoming Queen. This is paralleled later as an inversion when Arianne tried to crown Myrcella. Lyanna's betrothal to Robert was the North's promise to back Robert's claim for the throne. Myrcella's betrothal to Trystane was an alliance between the crown and Dorne. Lyanna and Ashara's escapes from Kings Landing mirror Arya and Sansa. Arya escaped Kings Landing dressed as a boy with a man of the Nights Watch. Sansa escaped Kings Landing with the help of a father figure and Bael figure: Petyr Baelish. Here's our clue that Lyanna was helped by a Bael figure too: Rhaegar. Rhaegar played Bael by helping Lyanna escape Kings Landing by dressing as a man of the Nights Watch and Lyanna as a boy. He may even have been accompanied by one or more of his Kingsguard, also in disguise. Recall that Sandor Clegane once offered to help Sansa escape, but she declined. Sandor's complete inversion was Arthur Dayne, who likely would have helped Rhaegar if it would have helped Ashara escape Dodge as well. Their travels through he Riverlands would be similar to Arya and Sandor, but with Sansa instead of separate. I suspect Lyanna, Ashara, and Arthur left together and reached Ned in the Vale, however because of the sour and bitter lemons, lemon water, and piss, I suspect Arthur Dayne (or maybe Gerold Hightower) is at fault for Lyanna's mortal wound similar to Myrcella's wound by Gerald Dayne aka Darkstar. Lyanna's trip to Winterfell was concealed in the Fisherman's daughter's tale. Maester Walys was the fisherman, and a pregnant Lyanna made it as far as White Harbor before succumbing to her mortified wounds. The Manderly's provided Wylla the wet nurse to accompany Ned home to Winterfell before he left for Riverrun to marry Catelyn. Lyanna was like the sacrificed horse in Mirri's tent when she slit it's throat to resurrect Drogo, but Lyanna was already mortally wounded before Rhaegar died, so she was not at the tower of joy. So who was there? Recall that Daenerys was pregnant and her unborn Rhaego provided the child sacrifice needed to make the magic work. I suspect that Rhaella and Ashara traded places, and that Rhaella was at the tower of joy, and it was her child that was sacrificed for Rhaegar. Ashara is Daenerys mother, and this is why Viserys called her "sweet sister", because he knew they didn't share the same mother. Aerys raped Ashara, and it was Ashara that Jaime saw when he thought he saw Rhaella leave Kings Landing with Viserys. Edited to add: since I am a believer in the inversions the tale of Bael’s death by his son needs to be reversed. Bael needs to kill his son, and that’s what Mance basically does by writing the Pink Letter. Sorry - sorry - I'm going way outside this thread, but I thought I had to explain where my ideas where coming from.

Hello again! Baelor of course also has Bael as part of the name, which connotes Bael the Bard. I'm not quite sure what we're to make of that, but certainly all these connections between Dunk and Coldhands as well as Dunk's many thoughts about Bloodraven, plus the dam issue in The Hedge Knight being an allegory for the Wall has me thinking that Baelor is meant to refer to Bael the Bard, or Mance Raydar. Baelor was well loved, honorable, noble, and pious. Are we to think of Mance as having Baelor's attributes? Should we expect a parallel inversion? Or is Mance a resurrected Rhaegar? More on this later. The Goddess Danu actually and immediately caused me to recall Dormammu, (Danu sounds like D-ammu) which is a Marvel creation. Some Pig/Pretty Pig did a fabulous analysis connecting the Marvel Dormammu to the wights. GRRM is a huge fanboy of all things Marvel and has incorporated many Marvel characters into ASOIAF including Dr Strange who's physical description is very much like Littlefinger, but who's position as the new Sorcerer Supreme is Bran. I quite agree with By Odin's Beard and his assertion that the evil eye is Euron Greyjoy, who I also suspect of either helping unravel the wards upon the Wall or just knows the wards are old and unraveling and is taking advantage. Euron is the complete inversion to Bloodraven, but I'll refrain from digressing from your thread by going off on this tangent! OK - this is more of a stream of consciousness than anything else, but sometimes you just have to trust your instincts! Like I said I'm all about noticing the parallels and inversions and I cannot help but notice the following parallel inversions that might explain this connection to Dorne: 1) Suspected baby-swap. It's been suggested that Varys swapped Rhaegar's son, Aegon, for the Pisswater Prince who's head ended up smashed upon a wall at the hands of Ser Gregor. 2) Gilly's son, Monster was swapped with Mance's (royal) son Aemon Steelsong, so now Gilly's son is at the Wall and Mance's son avoided it. In this way the Pisswater Prince is Monster's parallel. 3) Sam and Gilly bring Mance's son to Horn Hill where he will be raised as Sam's son. The child is neither Sam's nor Gilly's, so in this way Aemon Steelsong parallel's Jon Snow who is also neither Ned's nor Wylla's child. 4) Monster is at the Wall. Jon Snow is also at the Wall. So, confusingly, while Jon mirrors/parallels Aemon Steelsong, he also mirrors Monster, which makes me think that there was supposed to be a baby-swap that did not occur due to either Bloodraven's machinations or to one of Ned's promises to Lyanna. Or both. How does all this relate to Baelor and Dorne? Think about the route Ned supposedly took if we are to believe his fever dream was a true account, and compare it with Dunk's dream of when Chestnut died in Dorne. Dunk says the true events were nothing like his dream. The only thing about his dream that was true was that he and Egg rode to Dorne to look for Tanselle. Chestnut died on the way in the Prince's Pass, and one of Egg's brothers (probably Aemon) gave them Maester the mule to ride so that they wouldn't both have to ride on Thunder. The trip to Dorne was still a trip, but it wasn't the same. The symbolism of taking a trip is an analog for a transformation, and in Drogo's case in Mirri's tent it was a transformation to a different sort of life. He was resurrected, but he wasn't the same. Dunk's trip to Dorne to search for Tanselle was different than his dream, and we're supposed to wonder if Ned's fever dream was also the same or different than real life. Did Ned go to Dorne to look for Lyanna, who by the way was compared to a centaur, or did he really go just to return a magical sword? Is Chestnut an analog for Lyanna, a girl who could skin change into horses? I hope I'm not getting ahead of your analysis. I haven't quite sorted out what all of this means, but it's a puzzle I've been working on lately. I'd be interested if you had any thoughts on it. Please try to refrain from assuming that Rhaegar is Jon's father, because if you do it'll take you down a different path than if Jon's father is Bael. Edited to add: HOWEVER - if Rhaegar was resurrected at the tower of joy and became Mance - Baelor's connection to Dorne is an obvious parallel for Rhaegar's marriage to Elia. The more I think on this the more the evidence seems to support this seemingly crackpot idea that Rhaegar became Mance. Recall that when Mirri resurrected Drogo he wasn't the same. He was alive - but he wasn't the same. So if Rhaegar was resurrected - he's alive, but he doesn't look the same. The account of Dunk and Egg riding Thunder until Egg's brother gives them Maester the mule to ride seems to imply that not only did Maester Aemon know that Mance was Rhaegar, he may have had a hand in figuring out how to accomplish the transformation from a huge warhorse like Thunder (Rhaegar) to a lowly mule called Maester (Mance). These machinations would also explain how Jon could have "more of the north" in him and still be (somewhat) Rhaegar's son. If Rhaegar was resurrected as Mance, and Mance is Jon's father, the magic involved would certainly make the transformation and conception a manipulation - aka "more of the north in him" would equate to interference by the gods, or rather certain events put into play by Bloodraven in order to get the right person at the Wall. But wait, you say...the past cannot be changed. But what if history really is a wheel and has a somewhat reliable cycle? Bloodraven could have caused the ouroboros to eat its own tail, causing history (known events) to occur to different families, thereby manipulating the future. Here's what I think. Ned failed, because while he thought he honored the old gods, he didn't really believe in them, nor did he ever ask for their help, because he believed the Children were dead and gone 8000 years ago. That is why he failed. He had honor, but he didn't request or receive help from the Children. Dunk, on the other hand, drew on his Flea Bottom upbringing - aka, he tapped into the powers of the old gods and the Children and they helped him, just like the Last Hero - and also just like I suspect how the Children helped the Last Hero, by resurrecting him from the dead. The story of the Last Hero has his sword breaking, just like Ser Waymar's did. I think Coldhands, Last Hero, and Duncan are meant to mirror each other so that we understand that magic was involved. Dunk was at Summerhal when Aegon V failed to raise a dragon, but Dunk's account is supposed to be our hint that magic was involved at the tower of joy. Dunk is also Ned, and Ned suffered from his wound inflicted by Jaime and it caused him to have the fever dream and to hallucinate much like a snake bite might do. It has been suggested that the Knight of the Laughing Tree is a story of what can be accomplished when one human consents to having another human skin change into them. It's not an abomination if the host gives consent. Some Pig/Pretty Pig asserts that Lyanna skin changed into the horse that the KofLT rode. I tend to agree with her on this and take it a step further by saying that I think Ned also skin changed into Howland, so the three of them made up the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The evidence for this can be found in Sansa's descriptions of Ser Loras when he tilted Ser Gregor: I am going to double down on the passage and interpretation that Pretty Pig has provided in case you didn’t catch it the first time. The man slender as a reed is Howland, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. Howland is “dressed” and “cloaked”. Does this mean Howland rode inside someone or someone rode inside him? The twining black vines and the blue forget-me-nots indicate a joined connection, or rather an instance of consensual skinchanging. Could it be any clearer that “the slender reed riding the grey mare” means that Howland rode Lyanna just like Bran rides Hodor? The grey represents House Stark and the the girl who loved blue flowers, who was so good on horseback that she was called a centaur, was the host. Dunk's comments that he is Thunder and Thunder is him seems to support the notion of combining a skinchanger (or skinchangers) with a host and a horse. This passage makes me think of the story of Bael the Bard and how he's killed by his son - who doesn't realize that the man he just killed was his father. If Jon is a combo of an honorable Ned Stark combined with Dunk - who is connected closely to the old gods through his Flea Bottom upbringing, then this may be our foreshadowing that Jon will kill Bael only to learn later that the man he just killed was his father. The only way Rhaegar is Jon's father is if Rhaegar is Mance. This would mean that Rhaegar was successfully resurrected at the tower of joy - which by the way is what I believed was attempted there. There are so many parallels between the tower of joy as recalled in Ned's fever dream with Mirri's tent revival of Drogo that I believe the same ritual was worked there. I am quoting Some Pig/Pretty Pig a lot lately and here's another link to her analysis of the two. This is why I believe Bloodraven manipulated things so that Ned would refuse to do the expected baby swap in order to place Jon where he is needed: at the Wall like Monster (who was a child of incest) even though he's more like the parallel to Aemon Steelsong. I think this is also why Mance seems to parallel Rhaegar so much and why readers tend to believe Rhaegar is Jon's son, because they sense the symbolism. Jon's father needs to be alive so that he is responsible for his death like the guilt Dunk feels for Baelor and the guilt Ned feels for Lyanna. I'm not sure who Ned was supposed to swap Jon for. I know the reason why he didn't do it - obviously it's because Jon is his blood, but some how he was supposed to be swapped for another child....maybe just maybe Jon was the Pisswater Prince? If he was the Pisswater Prince and was supposed to be swapped for Aegon - then Aegon really is dead. I see this as a parallel to Bran again. Bran was chosen by the old gods to replace Bloodraven. Bran certainly is not a lackwit, but he is physically handicapped. I suspect when he ate the weirwood paste he technically "died", but his wedding to the weirwoods gave him his second life inside the trees, and it seems Bran will be able to work miracles. Back to more reading!

OK, so I have a long way to go yet. I think I'm about half way done with the first page! My oh my Seams, your analysis is very detailed! When I reread the Dunk and Egg novellas I was struck by how often Dunk thinks of Bloodraven. I think you may be onto something by wondering if Dunk is now Coldhands. The missing connection, however is the scarf around Coldhand's neck. I would think Dunk should show obvious signs of burning since he was with Aegon V at Summerhal...unless...his throat was cut in order to sacrifice his blood??? Ah, but I digress. This is actually one of the major themes of ASOIAF, that "knights" weren't very honorable nor noble, and thus the many references to lemons - sour and bitter in flavor and yellow in color like piss. And "piss" is in reference to the soiling of white cloaks. You're attention is on the wordplay - my attention is focused on parallel inversions. The inversions are all part of the replaying of history, but the ouroboros - the dragon eating it's own tail - has eaten itself inside out. East is now west and the north is upside down. Steely Pate was actually known as a master armorer, so the inversion naturally would be that Pate has not made a single link towards becoming a maester. "Mad Foreshadowing" indeed. The tourney at Ashford Meadow is foreshadowing the Tourney at Harrenhal, which led to the destruction of House Targaryen. Having Lord Ashford being a less than fleshed out character - a shadow really - indicates there was an equally unknown shadow figure that provided the financing for Harrenhal. I suspect that Tywin Lannister was the coin and that Lord Whent was just a patsy. The tourney was a rouse much like Ashford was. Ashford was to draw support for the rebel Blackfyres, while Harrenhal was to draw support for Rhaegar to overthrow his father, Aerys. Is it any wonder that Aerion Brightflame connotes Aerys plan to burn Kings Landing before even considering surrender? Aerys believed, like some Targaryens before him, that he would rise from the ashes as a dragon - another connection to Ashford. Egg on Dunk = Bran on Hodor = Bloodraven and Coldhands. Perhaps the parallels between Dunk and Coldhands are just that: parallels, and Dunk is not actually Coldhands. GRRM just wants us to draw those connections so that we will grasp the context. He's telling us the story of the Tourney of Harrenhal without actually telling us the story. Like I mentioned before, I see parallel connections between Dunk and Ned. Ned is also a very honorable man, but blind to the dangers surrounding him and his family. The theme that "knights don't act honorably", but the "knights that aren't really knights do" is made very plain in ASOIAF. It's interesting that Dunk the lunk always seems to win out in the end, even if at great physical injury each time....even drowning once, and then getting resurrected by an Ironman...but Ned didn't fare so well. Ned's honor always seemed to trip him up, and time after time he's deceived and defeated, and then beheaded. I will point out another foreshadowing here that connects Ned and Jon to Dunk: Dunk's resurrection after drowning. Ned raised Jon as his son and imbued him with his honor, but Jon's luck is better than Ned's - so far - in that his plans and assignments always seem to work, until it didn't and he's stabbed. I posit that Jon's expected resurrection will be performed by Val - who I believe is a priestess of the Drowned god and goddess of the wind - the two gods of the Ironborn. I'm not just pulling a rabbit out of my ass. The wildlings are descendants of the same ancestors as the Ironborn. It is their gods that are being held prisoner behind the dam/Wall. Well - I need to stop for now and get back to my real world work - oh pooh! Later!

There is also the connection between lemons and pissing, and pissing’s connection to soiling. Ser Arthur Dayne was said to be so formidable with a sword that he could fight equally well while taking a piss with his other hand. Darkstar drank lemon water, then took a piss, and lastly stood with one foot upon the head of a statue of the Maiden while talking to Arianne. Lem Lemoncloak’s cloak is so dingy a woman jested that he’s a Kingsguard in disguise, implying he pissed or soiled his cloak.

Just a few quick comments. I meant to delve deeply, but ran out of time. I will return later when I have more time. Firstly, lately I have been referring to the Wall as a giant dam, because I believe it's holding water magic prisoner with air magic. Air and water are two elements associated with the Ironborn, who I also believe are the ancestors of the wildlings. "Air" being their Storm god or goddess of the wind, and "water" being their Drowned God. I'm trying to condense my entire theory regarding this, but let me cut to the chase - you are finding connections to Bloodraven within The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword, and I am adding that the dam symbolism is referring to the Wall. Bloodraven once served as the Lord Commander. and he now resides north of the Wall in the cave. Along with the dam symbolism connection to the Wall, Dunk as a very large puppet is a direct connection to Coldhands, who may be Bran's monster, but he was likely Bloodraven's monster first. IMO lemons are also connected to war. The sight of a lemon orchard seemed promising to Arianne when she was trying to crown Myrcella, but it was next to the location where she was surprised by Areo Hotah. Also, when Doran left the Water Gardens for Sunspear, the people of Dorne greeted his arrival by throwing lemons, limes, and oranges at him in anger while crying for war. Lastly Bloodraven's closest men are the Ravensteeth, so the connection between lemons and teeth might also be referring to Bloodraven's men. Turnips as symbolism for underworld is pretty interesting, especially considering what happened to Big and Little Walder. Big Walder was with Ramsay when the body of Little Walder is discovered, as the latest in a series of murders at Winterfell. I haven't read through all the comments yet, but am wondering if you've come upon Dunc's dream yet and the parallels to Ned's fever dream? I'll keep reading!

The Ironborn have been the Children's primary antagonist. Their power resides with the sea and their Drowned God. The Children called down the comet and resulting tsunami to sever the Iron Islands from the mainland. The Ironborn then turned to raiding for a living, so the Children turned to ice magic to try and freeze their water magic out, but that didn't stop the Ironborn from practicing magic. It just froze their water magic and they created white walker soldiers. The First Men were enlisted to help. They could round up any Ironborn humans during daylight hours and imprison them in cells until the Wall could be built - keeping them separated and unable to make the sacrifices necessary to work magic. After the Wall was built the water magic of the Ironborn was contained and warded with woven layers of ice magic. Fast forward to Harren the Black who built Harrenhal in the Riverlands to mock the old gods. He clear cut all the weirwoods and dug up any greenseers he found. The surviving remnant of Children fled beyond the Wall into the cave where they now reside. Fire magic was summoned to deal with Harren by way of Aegon the Conqueror and Harrenhal was destroyed. The Targaryens united six of the kingdoms and made alliances with the seventh. Peace was restored for 300 years. The Citadel and their maesters have been working on reducing the strength of the fire magic over the last 300 years. By having a maester in every great House they are fighting a war of propaganda teaching children a warped history so that they think historical threats and stories were so far in the past as to be legends and myths, gremlins and snarks. The dragons have died out, each generation reduced in size, either by confinement or poisoning or both. Once the Targaryens were weakened enough, they saw their chance and plotted a scheme where they pinned the blame for a kidnapping on the heir apparent in order to have a "just cause" to rally the Houses, take the Iron Throne, and install an Andal king. Back to the Ironborn - Damphair has a terrible memory of Euron and a squeaky hinge - the Wall is a hinge, and hinges hold doors. Somehow the wards holding the water magic were unwoven and opened releasing the Ironborn's Drowned God into the North. Ice magic is still holding the Wall up as a barrier, but the water magic was released, albeit frozen. The wildlings are descendants of Ironborn and still have the knowledge to create white walkers. They're only pretending to flee, when really the white walkers and wights are their vanguard. Euron has sent Victarion to intercept Dany and her dragons so that they cannot be used against his frozen Drowned God when it breaks free of the Wall.

As you can see @Ran the quote and spoiler tag issue is not resolved. See above for examples.

I do seem to have troubles with quote and spoiler tags.

I've posted my Tywin essay. It's called: Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl If you have any trouble with the above link you can also read it here: LINK

Maybe take the discussion to where the essays are?

I am only part way through the theory. It's more than just one essay. It's a project encompassing 30 essays! lol There are 30 uniquely named POV chapters spread out between a AFFC and ADWD that I am in the midst of deciphering. These chapters are more than they appear on the surface. If you'd like to read my opening essay and some of the chapters that I have completed you can start here: Wheel of Time project I am currently deciphering the 5th chapter, The Drowned Man. I may get this one completed this weekend. I haven't identified any of the characters you've mentioned...yet.