Feather Crystal

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  1. It wasn’t the Drowned God he made sacrifices to. He made blood sacrifice to the Storm God. The Ironborn recognize two gods. The Drowned God is the holy god, and the Storm God is their devil.
  2. From the wiki: When the First Men and the children of the forest first went to war, the old songs say greenseers of the children used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, in a futile attempt to end the invasion of the First Men. Although the shattering of the Arm was successful, it was too late, for the First Men in Westeros had already crossed and the wars went on until the Pact. The Arm of Dorne was washed away by rising sea levels, but the hammer of waters is only associated with the Neck. We can insert more than one explanation for what the hammer was, but I’m inclined to think it was a meteor.
  3. Your connections between the viking longboat, the Ironborn, and the Drachenschiff is amazing! We've often discussed here on Heresy the connection between the First Men and Norse mythology. Odin - We've got lots of Odin imagery with Bloodraven undead amongst the roots of the weirwood (tree of life). Jormungand - the great serpent, which I believe is the ouroboros, or rather the wheel of time in the story - the dragon eating its own tail. Thor - We see echoes of Thor in Robert Baratheon and his hammer, or even the Children's use of the hammer of waters, the lightning connections to the burned offerings in the weirwood of Whitetree, and the lightning sigil of House Kenning of Harlaw representing the Storm God's finger. Loki - Is Euron our Loki? Loki is the father, by the giantess Angrboda, of Hel - goddess of the underworld. Loki demonstrates a complete lack of concern for the well-being of his fellow gods, a trait which seems to apply to Euron who is Fenrir - Bran may be our wolf that bites off the hand of Tyr (Jaime) Baldur - Handsome, gracious, and cheerful - a diety so popular that he radiates light. Lightbringer anyone? Frigg - A loving sorceress and wife to Odin. We do have a known sorceress in Melisandre, and a suspected sorceress in Val. Then there's Bloodraven's lost love and bastard sister, Shiera Seastar. Shiera was supposed to be a great beauty, spoke multiple languages, and a worker of the dark arts. I could continue with the list, but you get the picture. My main point is that the Ironborn are a seafaring First Men with strong connections to Norse mythology and viking culture. The wildlings share many parallels to this viking culture with their strong "shield-maiden" women that fight alongside the men. Asha is a classic example of a shield-maiden persona. The shield-maidens of viking culture were inspired of the mythological Valkyrie which are one of a host of female figures who choose those who may live or die in battle. The valkyries bring their chosen dead to the afterlife hall of the slain in Valhalla which is ruled over by Odin, but in our story the wilding after life is with the Drowned God. Even the wildling practice of burning the dead has roots in viking culture where the dead were burnt or buried in their daily clothes, and usually buried along with their personal belongings. Sometimes the viking dead were buried lying in a boat or a wagon.
  4. IMO the drowning and resuscitating ritual that the Drowned God's followers practice is in memory of raising the dead to wights. "What is dead may never die, but rises again, stronger and harder!" I posit that the Iron Islands were separated from the mainland when the Children called down their hammer of waters. Many Ironborn were killed in the resulting tsunami - they drowned. The survivors cut down Ygg the demon tree and made a longboat then sailed back to the mainland. The Children retaliated by manipulating the seasons to bring about an extended winter to freeze the Ironborn out at sea. The Ironborn worship their Drowned God, but fear the Storm God much like Christians worship God and fear the Devil. Euron's men reported that the Storm God can be appeased by blood sacrifice to work in their favor, so the Ironborn turned to their "devil" and made blood sacrifice to the Storm God, created white walkers, and walked across the ice bringing the Storm God's magical air to raise the dead.
  5. It's a good theory and I think you should pursue it, but the real jewel that you've found is the possible connection between the pyke-sea wolf and the Warg King Gaven Greywolf. The "grey" recalls to mind the Grey King and his grey skin. It's a nice alternative explanation as to why the Starks would war against other wargs, especially if those other wargs were "sea wolfs". It's more evidence to support the idea that the Others are the Ironborn. They are of First Men blood too, so it shouldn't be of any surprise if they were skinchangers.
  6. Found the passage. I believe it's in A Feast for Crows, but since my e-book is a 4-book bundle I cannot tell which book or chapter this is: The wind was at their backs, as it had been all the way down from Old Wyk. It was whispered about the fleet that Euron's wizards had much and more to do with that, that the Crow's Eye appeased the Storm God with blood sacrifice.
  7. Reminds me of that song on Sesame Street, "...one of these things is not like the other (har) eight of these things are kinda the same..." Where are you going with this? Euron does mock all of the gods, because he thinks his powers are superior, but that doesn't mean he won't use the Drowned God for his purposes. I was rereading Euron last night and while I don't have it at my fingertips I do recall that his men reported that Euron made sacrifices to the Storm God. I also just posted about the salty tear last night in response to something Frey Family Reunion said over on Hobaw. I wondered if the Black Gate was the Grey King - mainly because of that salty tear, and because he "walked into the sea to descend to the watery halls of the Drowned God..." - well, if the Wall is holding the Drowned God AND the Black Gate is down a well - you can see why I would wonder. Water wolf! Fabulous!
  8. The Ironborn recognize two gods: the Drowned God (water) and the Storm God (air). Euron says he is the storm - the first one and the last. Sounds to me like he'll be resuscitating the frozen water magic by providing the air necessary to move the wights and create white walkers. He's also known as the Crow's Eye. Seems apt since the Ironborn may also be skinchanging other seafaring creatures.
  9. I probably did, because if the Ironborn are creating the white walkers - in my mind - if they are the source then they technically are both the Others and the neverborn. My interpretation is closer to the "blurb" "...the emergence of the Neverborn demons, and the arrival of barbarian hordes." that Matthew provided than the early synopsis. This line of thought would be the same as saying the shadowbaby Melisandre birthed was still Stannis. It was his life-force that was used to create the creature. He was the source - he was the shadowbaby. We could even accuse Stannis of being an "Other", because he cooperated with Mel to raise an inhuman shadowbaby. I'm not saying Stannis is Ironborn, but he is responsible for creating something inhuman.
  10. Are you trying to tease me, because I think this is the third or fourth time I'll be repeating this. IMO the Others are the Ironborn and they raise the never born white walkers.
  11. I am not disagreeing with you that the neverborn are the white walkers, but I disagree that the Children are the Others, I think the Ironborn are the Others.
  12. It's really not that different. Just change out "Others" for Ironborn and "never born" for white walkers. The sigil of the Greyjoys is the kraken, and I can easily see how a frozen kraken could look like an ice spider.
  13. Ah, fair enough, as I did interpret the heart tree as planted by men, but allow me to elaborate on my thinking here--even if a heart tree is already present, what are the implications of men setting up shop that far north, at least 10,000 years ago*, adjacent to the Wolfswood? Had the deep forests already been cut that far when the Pact was established? Is the Wolfswood, in its present state, exactly as far as it had always extended, and there was a godswood just sitting there on the eastern edge, unoccupied after the Pact? If the grove is indeed far older than 10,000 years, does it sit atop a hollow hill, its former occupants fled or slaughtered? Did the CotF allow Winterfell to be established because they lacked the population to maintain the grove? As the latter question suggests, I am not attempting to dismiss the idea of friendship; it may be that men were welcomed into the north, into places like Whitetree, that they were granted passage through the Haunted forest and beyond its boundaries after the Pact. This is a reasonable interpretation, especially if the end goal of the CotF was to restore many sacred groves. Nonetheless, it's not the only interpretation, and I am keeping in mind the other potential implications of things like Winterfell, the Free Folk, the Fist, etc.: That the Hammer failed and the FM slashed and burned their way around the Wolfswood and toward the Haunted Forest, and that we are missing (or misunderstanding, as your interpretation of the LH crying pax postulates) the decisive moment that lead to the Pact. It may also be that the Pact failed long before the Andals showed up. Feather might also be referring to the fact that "neverborn" was used as a byword for the Others in advance reader copies and early blurbs for aGoT, with the occasional vestige of that early usage still to be found here and there: https://adams.marmot.org/Record/.b33193010 Hey! Thanks for the link!
  14. This doesn't mean that the neverborn idea never made it into ASOIAF. You're just not recognizing them, because you are assuming they would be inhuman like in the Wheel of Time books, but wouldn't it be confusing to have two inhuman life forms both coming out of the north? GRRM is demonstrating what happens, not just when magic is abused, but mainly what humans do when they have access to that kind of power. He's reworked the neverborn idea and substituted the Ironborn whose name comes from breaking free of the wards placed upon them. When winter was used against the Ironborn to freeze their ships at sea, they learned to work their water magic even though it was now frozen. The ice of the Wall is holding all that water magic frozen and its been sealed and warded with spells, but the ward is now open, water magic has been released, and winter is coming. The Ironborn will ride the winds of winter to overtake Westeros. Euron says he is the storm - the first and the last.
  15. Euron Greyjoy said, "I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last." He is also nicknamed the Crow's Eye. This supports what I have suspected that the Ironborn are the Others.
  16. I understand your position, because it's one I also tended to think made the most sense, but there were some explanations that I found unsatisfying like the passivity of the Children. My opinion has begun to change since the discussion about Harren the Black and Harrenhal. A different picture is emerging and it ties in to the mirrored inversion theory. It makes sense to me that the Wall is like a giant mirror and it's reflection is the long destroyed Wall that once stood along the Trident. @The Fattest Leech introduced me to GRRM's repeated use of mirrors in some of his other books, so many (she says) that she cannot quote them all. "Good horror stories make us look at our reflections in dark distorting mirrors, where we glimpse things that disturb us, things that we did not really want to look at." and "The mirror, reversing everything, just made it worse." Recall that when GRRM was writing to his editor he referred to the Others as the Neverborn. Is it any coincidence then that ASOIAF has the Ironborn? Iron is a known substance used in wards, and the reason why these people are called Ironborn is because the Children tried to keep them out of Westeros to keep the peace, which is what wards are all about.
  17. If we are to believe that "the Pact held through the Long Night" is a truthful statement, then it wasn't the Children that created the white walkers. Neither was their absence a passive indication that they wanted to harm the First Men. If my theory that the Ironborn are the Others and can work their water magic even during freezing winter temperatures is true, then it makes sense that the Children remained huddled in their secret cities. They were under attack just as much as the First Men were, and that is why they joined forces to defeat the Others.
  18. Thank you for all of the above. I need more time to reread and digest it, so I anticipate more questions will pop up. Get better soon! Please expand on your thoughts about the Liddle or direct me to some posts. I'd like to read more about this. I'm sorry to hear you're sick. It has been a bad flu season. I got the flu shot last fall and so far I haven't fallen ill. I'll be on the lookout for actual mentions of mirrors. Very interesting. Did I mention before that I think the titled chapters are mirrored events from the past? I have some ideas/theories as to why the wheel of time in Westeros is mirrored and reversing, but this idea that it makes it worse is something I hadn't considered before. Lately I have been suspicious that the wildlings are descendants of the Ironborn, imprisoned after Aegon the Conqueror burned out Harren and his castle at Harrenhal. There's some unknown connection though between the Ironborn and the maesters at the Citadel that hasn't made sense yet. I think an older, destroyed second Wall along the Trident in the Riverlands would make more sense as the mirrored inversion to the Wall. It would also help explain the residual fire magic that Thoros draws on to revive Beric, and Beric to revive Cat. Of course that Wall may have been destroyed long before Aegon arrived, but the ruins at Moat Callin hint at some disaster as well as the water bogs. I have a new theory that the Others are Ironborn. I have to backup a bit to interject that iron is a known substance used in wards, and the reason why the people are called Ironborn is because the Children tried to keep them out of Westeros and keep the peace, which is what wards are all about. The Ironborn's power is derived from the sea and their Drowned God. The Children called down their hammer of waters to sever the Iron Islands from the mainland. This worked for awhile, but the people were resilient and were reborn as raiders. The separation from Westeros was meant as a type of ward, but since they broke free of their restraints they were reborn from the iron (ward), or Ironborn. The Ironborn built ships and turned to raiding for a living, so the Children manipulated the seasons and brought about an extended winter to freeze the sea and the Ironborn's water magic, but magic is a double-bladed sword without a hilt. They didn't realize that the Ironborn would be able to work with frozen water and create white walker soldiers. The Children weren't the only ones hunted by the white walkers. The First Men sent out the Last Hero and his friends to seek out the Children. We know some of how that story turned out with everyone dying but the Last Hero, but somehow a plan was put together to defeat the Others and it worked. The white walkers only appeared after the sun went down so the humans behind them needed to be dealt with during daylight hours and imprisoned until the Wall could be built - keeping them separated and unable to make the blood sacrifices necessary to work magic. After the Wall was built the water magic of the Ironborn was contained and warded with woven layers of ice magic. Fast forward to Harren the Black who built Harrenhal in the Riverlands to mock the old gods. He clear cut all the weirwoods and dug up any greenseers he found. The surviving remnant of Children fled beyond the Wall into the cave where they now reside. Fire magic was summoned to deal with Harren by way of Aegon the Conqueror, and Harrenhal was destroyed. Aegon used a thousand swords of the defeated to build his Iron Throne. There were many Houses destroyed during the conquest, but IMO the Iron Throne is named after the defeated Ironborn.
  19. I stand corrected. Your other comment about the old gods of the First Men...I thought they adopted the old gods of the Children? I still remain suspicious of Harren the Black and the Ironborn. There's more to this story than we've been provided. If the Andals are to blame for cutting down the weirwoods then there shouldn't have been "forests" of weirwoods for Harren to cut down for his rafters and beams.
  20. It is stated that the Pact held through the Andal invasion, so Luwin left out why the Children fled, and whether or not the Pact was eventually broken. This implies that the Children remained in the forests until Harren cut the weirwoods down just 300 short years ago, therefore it seems logical that this would be the time period when they fled. It is also during the last third of the 300 year reign of Targaryens that Bloodraven is sent to the Wall and then abandons his LC position to become the "Last" Greenseer - which also seems to support the idea that the Targaryens were summoned to help the Children.
  21. The Ironborn have been the Children's primary antagonist. Their power resides with the sea and their Drowned God. The Children called down the comet and resulting tsunami to sever the Iron Islands from the mainland. The Ironborn then turned to raiding for a living, so the Children turned to ice magic to try and freeze their water magic out, but that didn't stop the Ironborn from practicing magic. It just froze their water magic and they created white walker soldiers. The First Men were enlisted to help. They could round up any Ironborn humans during daylight hours and imprison them in cells until the Wall could be built - keeping them separated and unable to make the sacrifices necessary to work magic. After the Wall was built the water magic of the Ironborn was contained and warded with woven layers of ice magic. Fast forward to Harren the Black who built Harrenhal in the Riverlands to mock the old gods. He clear cut all the weirwoods and dug up any greenseers he found. The surviving remnant of Children fled beyond the Wall into the cave where they now reside. Fire magic was summoned to deal with Harren by way of Aegon the Conqueror and Harrenhal was destroyed. The Targaryens united six of the kingdoms and made alliances with the seventh. Peace was restored for 300 years. The Citadel and their maesters have been working on reducing the strength of the fire magic over the last 300 years. By having a maester in every great House they are fighting a war of propaganda teaching children a warped history so that they think historical threats and stories were so far in the past as to be legends and myths, gremlins and snarks. The dragons have died out, each generation reduced in size, either by confinement or poisoning or both. Once the Targaryens were weakened enough, they saw their chance and plotted a scheme where they pinned the blame for a kidnapping on the heir apparent in order to have a "just cause" to rally the Houses, take the Iron Throne, and install an Andal king. Back to the Ironborn - Damphair has a terrible memory of Euron and a squeaky hinge - the Wall is a hinge, and hinges hold doors. Somehow the wards holding the water magic were unwoven and opened releasing the Ironborn's Drowned God into the North. Ice magic is still holding the Wall up as a barrier, but the water magic was released, albeit frozen. The wildlings are descendants of Ironborn and still have the knowledge to create white walkers. They're only pretending to flee, when really the white walkers and wights are their vanguard. Euron has sent Victarion to intercept Dany and her dragons so that they cannot be used against his frozen Drowned God when it breaks free of the Wall.
  22. Supposedly the Long Night happened thousands of years ago, but Harren the Black's actions took place around 300 years ago, and 300 years ago the Lord of Winterfell was Torrhen Stark who knelt to Aegon the Conqueror. Lately I have been of the mind that Torrhen's kneeling actually protected the small remnant of Children that had fled beyond the Wall. Aegon's burning of Harrenhal was punishment for Harren breaking the Pact. I haven't found any clues yet as to why Torrhen didn't stand up to Harren the Black before the dragons came though. If my theory that the wildlings are ancestors of the Ironmen, then they're responsible for creating the white walkers and are only pretending to flee. The white walkers very suspiciously look like they are the van clearing the way for Mance and the wildlings.
  23. We've debated here on Heresy before about that statement that the "Children fled beyond the Wall" seems like a contradiction of the Pact. They should have been able to remain in the Riverlands, right? So it makes sense that they fled when Harren the Black constructed Harrenhal.
  24. We've discussed in the past how the Neck was likely the site of the first Wall. All that is left are remnants that look like evidence, and a whole lotta watery bogs. IMO the Trident itself is a demarcation line - another hinge just like the Wall and residual fire magic still exists there. Thoros of Myr said he's given the good god's own kiss before when people have died without a resurrection, but Lord Beric died in the Riverlands, so when Thoros gave him the kiss of life he rose. “I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god’s own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord’s servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R’hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God’s and God’s alone.” That wasn't the whole story though, because there was more. Harwin explains to Arya: …Lord Beric was gravely wounded. Thoros drew a foot of lance from his chest that night, and poured boiling wine into the hole it left. “Every man of us was certain his lordship would be dead by daybreak. But Thoros prayed with him all night beside the fire, and when dawn came, he was still alive, and stronger than he’d been. It was a fortnight before he could mount a horse, but his courage kept us strong. Edited to add: the following comment is actually evidence for a different theory having to do with the wheel of time where I posited that the detachment Aerys sent out to deal with the Kingswood Brotherhood also turned into outlaws. The Brotherhood Without Banners noticed other changes. They were sent to deal with outlaws and then they became the outlaws: “By then the fighting had passed by us. The Mountain’s men were only the van of Lord Tywin’s host. They crossed the Red Fork in strength and swept up into the riverlands, burning everything in their path. We were so few that all we could do was harry their rear, but we told each other that we’d join up with King Robert when he marched west to crush Lord Tywin’s rebellion. Only then we heard that Robert was dead, and Lord Eddard as well, and Cersei Lannister’s whelp had ascended the Iron Throne. “That turned the whole world on its head. We’d been sent out by the King’s Hand to deal with outlaws, you see, but now we were the outlaws, and Lord Tywin was the Hand of the King. There was some wanted to yield then, but Lord Beric wouldn’t hear of it. We were still king’s men, he said, and these were the king’s people the lions were savaging. If we could not fight for Robert, we would fight for them, until every man of us was dead. And so we did, but as we fought something queer happened. For every man we lost, two showed up to take his place. A few were knights or squires, of gentle birth, but most were common men— men— fieldhands and fiddlers and innkeeps, servants and shoemakers, even two septons. Men of all sorts, and women too, children, dogs . . .”
  25. Any man that leaves the Nights Watch as a fugitive is to be executed upon capture. That was likely the only recourse there was to discourage deserters, but I think the Wall also offered opportunities that some of the commoners didn't have available to them, like regular food and a chance at advancement.