lojzelote

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About lojzelote

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    I am but a young girl who knows nothing

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  1. Daenerys's Fate and the Fire She Must Light to Love

    I'm glad to hear it. I'm sure that plenty of historical Targaryens may have come to fervently worship Rh'llor had they exposed to the Rh'llorist learnings. But why should Dany be among them? Some historical Targaryens - such as Baelor the Blessed, Septa Rhaena, or Queen Naerys - were devout followers of the Seven, Baelor to the point of fanatism. That does not mean that Dany is going to fast herself to death like him. You must also take into account that Rh'llorism already existed in the times of the Valyrian Freehold, but apparently it was not the predominant religion of the Valyrian dragonlords. They followed gods like Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar. It's in fact stated that religion did not meant much to them - gods were honored, not feared - which is very much Dany's approach. Hell, they named their pets after their gods. Dragons may be terrifying predators, but to Valyrians they were their mounts that bent to their will and obeyed their commands. I have no idea if the ancient Greeks or Romans called their horses and hounds after the gods of their pantheon, but I'm sure that in the Christian or Islamic world such a thing would bring much outrage (in fact, I remember a case from a few years ago, where a teddy bear was named Allah, and some believers did not take it well). Whatever attraction the old Valyrians may have felt towards the god of fire, they simply did not care enough. They liked their gods multiple and toothless. To them religion was mostly a tool to control the masses. Why do you believe that Daenerys is more susceptible? She seems as irreligious as the old Valyrians, if not more so. So far she has always adapted to the local faith without throwing away the old ones. She simply does not care much if there is the *right* or the *best* god. Why should any of that change with meeting Benerro or Moqorro? Is that because they tell her she's Azor Ahai? Well, then it comes down to the way we view her. I simply do not consider her as easily impressionable. Well, who cares? They can claim what they want. If she plays by her own rules, there's not much they can do about it. Also, I don't think that Azor Ahai or the Stallion that mounts the world are supposed to be deities. Azor Azai carries religious contations since he's "the Lord's chosen", but that makes him more of a Moses or Mohammed than a Jesus, IMO. The Stallion is pretty irreligious. He's a hero that is one day supposed to unite all the Dothraki, no moral or ideological virtues or ideals attached. He's not supposed to fight against the darkness or any such. So did almost anybody else. Abegging brother in King's Landing claims it is a sign of the Seven's displeasure at the misbehaviour of the elites: “Corruption!” the man cried shrilly. “There is the warning! Behold the Father’s scourge!” He pointed at the fuzzy red wound in the sky. From this vantage, the distant castle on Aegon’s High Hill was directly behind him, with the comet hanging forebodingly over its towers. A clever choice of stage, Tyrion reflected. “We have become swollen, bloated, foul. Brother couples with sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a twisted little monkey demon. Highborn ladies fornicate with fools and give birth to monsters! Even the High Septon has forgotten the gods! He bathes in scented waters and grows fat on lark and lamprey while his people starve! Pride comes before prayer, maggots rule our castles, and gold is all... but no more! The Rotten Summer is at an end, and the Whoremonger King is brought low! When the boar did open him, a great stench rose to heaven and a thousand snakes slid forth from his belly, hissing and biting!” He jabbed his bony finger back at comet and castle. “There comes the Harbinger! Cleanse yourselves, the gods cry out, lest ye be cleansed! Bathe in the wine of righteousness, or you shall be bathed in fire! Fire!” The Riverlanders and the Ironborn interpret it different ways as well, the ones that suit them: “Robb has broken fealty with the Iron Throne and crowned himself King in the North. There’s war.” “The maester’s ravens fly over salt as soon as rock. This news is old and cold.” “It means a new day, Uncle.” “Every morning brings a new day, much like the old.” “In Riverrun, they would tell you different. They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A messenger from the gods.” “A sign it is,” the priest agreed, “but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did.” Theon's own idea is specific to him: Theon had never seen a more stirring sight. In the sky behind the castle, the fine red tail of the comet was visible through thin, scuttling clouds. All the way from Riverrun to Seagard, the Mallisters had argued about its meaning. It is my comet, Theon told himself, sliding a hand into his fur-lined cloak to touch the oilskin pouch snug in its pocket. Inside was the letter Robb Stark had given him, paper as good as a crown. Maester Cressen: I must rest, Maester Cressen told himself. I must have all my strength come dark. My hands must not shake, nor my courage flag. It is a dreadful thing I do, yet it must be done. If there are gods, surely they will forgive me. He had slept so poorly of late. A nap would refresh him for the ordeal ahead. Wearily, he tottered off to his bed. Yet when he closed his eyes, he could still see the light of the comet, red and flery and vividly alive amidst the darkness of his dreams. Perhaps it is my comet, he thought drowsily at the last, just before sleep took him. An omen of blood, foretelling murder... yes... Joffrey's court vs. the common people: The morning of King Joffrey’s name day dawned bright and windy, with the long tail of the great comet visible through the high scuttling clouds. Sansa was watching it from her tower window when Ser Arys Oakheart arrived to escort her down to the tourney grounds. “What do you think it means?” she asked him. “Glory to your betrothed,” Ser Arys answered at once. “See how it flames across the sky today on His Grace’s name day, as if the gods themselves had raised a banner in his honor. The smallfolk have named it King Joffrey’s Comet.” Doubtless that was what they told Joffrey; Sansa was not so sure. “I’ve heard servants calling it the Dragon’s Tail.” Osha is of similar belief as the servants: When Bran repeated that to Osha, she laughed aloud. “Your wolves have more wit than your maester,” the wildling woman said. “They know truths the grey man has forgotten.” The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.” (Btw, here is a nice example of "sweet" being used in an unironic manner. For those who need it.) (Personally I believe that Osha and the servants are closest to truth: IMHO the comet heralds that magic is getting stronger which enabled the return of the dragons... which in effect made the magic even stronger. A chicken and an egg situation.) So, Dany believes it pertains to her quest somehow. Years ago Rhaegar believed that the first comet heralded Aegon's birth, but as far as we know he did not convert to Rh'llorism, although we can be reasonably sure that he was familiar with the religion as well as the legend of Azor Ahai. He was supposed to read plenty of old, dusty books and scrolls on this topic, after all. So, if Rhaegar was not into it, then why should Dany? As opposed to Rhaegar she has not made it her life's mission to become ot to sire the saviour of the world. Melisandre has some other vision of her family than the Lot Seven memory? I honestly don't remember. Daenerys is a daughter of House Targaryen, who consider themselves blood of the dragon and who share a magical connection to their dragons (as much as fandom likes to dispute that). Recently she broke the known record and instead of one dragon she hatched dragons three. "… and folded. The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I." or And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear.for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children. The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world. I don't think Dany needs some red priests to tell her what "bride of fire" means. She already is a bride of fire. I see no reason to add Rh'llor to the mix to make it fit. It already fits. That's a misunderstanding of Dany's character. She's not powerhungry. Viserys told her that the Seven Kingdoms are their home, the home where they would be happy and safe. Dany's childhood sucked, she believed that assassins are out there to kill them, their hosts were throwing them into the street after each couple of months, her brother grew abusive. She's never found a home and Westeros is the thing in her imagination. It's not the crown and the power she's after, it's the sense of belonging. Re-conquering Westeros is a less noble goal than seeting slaves free, no argument on that. But tell, me: why should that consume her and drive her insane? There have been multiple contenders for the throne: Joffrey, Robb, Balon, Stannis, Renly, Aegon, Euron,... Stannis even dreams of a crown of fire consuming him. Why is Daenerys Targaryen singled out as being so susceptible? Why is not Aegon also judged for setting to regain the crown of his ancestors? He could turn mad, no? He has a bad temper, much worse temper than Dany, he takes bad to the idea that someone may say "no" to him. Well, Dany gets this from readership because we have access to her mind, we can see her doubts, her warts and all. The warts do not change that so far she has been one of the most selfless pretenders. The wars she waged have been on the account of others, not her own. That may change, but that hardly makes her worse than any of the fellow pretenders that either feel the crown is theirs by right or simply want more power. Let's not paint her as some impending nutcase for that. We don't even know what she will believe when she finally makes it Westeros. Perhaps she will want to strike a deal with Aegon against Euron or some such. Rh'llor... I don't know if the word has any further significance in-world, but irl it's probably just a word GRRM made up: (GRRM on his earlier writing, from Dreamsongs) Not really, the straw that broke the camel's back was their Lord Commander reading to the entire Shieldhall outloud a letter in which the Lord of Winterfell and the son of the Warden of the North accuses him of kidnapping his wife and threatens with retaliation if his conditions are not met. Their LC - instead of denying it or making any peaceful attempt - tells the Watch he's going to take the wildlings and attack the said Lord of Winterfell. I must I can't blame March and co. for... overreacting. Yeah, you can believe all you want that March is a baddie that was after Jon all along. His tears tell a different story. Whatever his faults may be, he did not want to kill this boy, but he felt his hand was forced. Much like Brutus with Caesar. The inspiration is apparent. Jon is not connected to Jon? That vision and memory are about Jon. I'll put the rest into spoilers, because I don't want to derail the thread
  2. Daenerys's Fate and the Fire She Must Light to Love

    I'm no Lord Varys, but if you allow me to share my thoughts with you... First of all, Dany is a very religiously tolerant person, which almost certainly has roots in her childhood, when she traveled from a city to city and has encountered various gods and faiths, but never stayed anywhere for long. She knows her family comes from the Seven Kingdoms, where the predominant religion is the Seven, so she honors them, at least nominally. When she lives with the Dothraki, she adapts and accepts their beliefs. When she rules Meereen, she agrees to conduct a ceremony in the rites of the Meereenese gods. She is cosmopolitan in her upbringing and beliefs and quite irreligious. I very much doubt that she will become an outspoken champion of any faith or that she is going to force her faith upon others. Even if she 'converts' to R'hllorism, then I doubt that the conversion will be any different from her 'conversion' to the Dothraki or Meereenese gods, or even the Great Shepherd. As for "Fire and blood"... that one is often used as a proof that she is now the Devil and out there to burn innocent children... well, no, she is not. I don't know how much you are familiar with GRRM's novel Fevre Dream, but that one shares a similar theme. Its protagonist (and ultimately a hero) is Abner March (and he's nothing like Bowen March, so put the pitchfork away ), who is a ship captain in the US of the 19th century. He doesn't care for slavery overmuch, but his mild discomfort does not lead him to any actual actions to attempt to liberate his fellow human beings. That is, until the events of the book transpire. In the duration of the book events, he becomes an abolitionist, because he comes to understand how terrible slavery truly is and that it touches him as well. This is what he says/thinks after he foregoes the change: This is the transition that Dany has undergone in ADwD. She tried to be reasonable, she tried to compromise with the Meereenese slaver elite, but they did not reciprocate her efforts. What they want is the return of status quo. Step by step she was forced to take away from her reforms, she had reopen the fighting pits, she had to marry a guy who was quite obviously is some way connected to the Sons of the Harpy to stop the attacks. So she said: No more. She's not going to play them a fool. If they want it the hard way, they will get it the hard way. For that matter, fire and blood have positive connotations as well. Fire and blood are connected to life and the ability to feel.*** "Fire consumes" is often viewed as something negative, but it kinda depends if the thing it consumes is worth saving, doesn't it? Sometimes the old is bad and has to go. OTOH "Ice preserves" is not always positive. Ice enables the existence of the Others and wights, who would otherwise rot and fall apart rather quickly. Preserving such societies as the Slaver's Bay is also not positive. It's rather clear that GRRM disapproves of slavery under any conditions and thinks that something anything should be done about it. What will she take away from when she sails for Westeros? Hard to say, since we're missing an entire book of character growth. She could go west because she wants to help her kinsman Aegon, she could go there because she knows/suspects that Aegon is fraud and is stealing her family name and birthright, she could go there because Marwyn tells her that Westeros needs her, she could go there because of the combination of those three options... or perhaps because of something completely different, for all we know. But the idea that she will burn people indiscriminately, not to mention to fulfill an agenda a particular faith... No, that is nothing like Daenerys Targaryen. Daenerys Targaryen tried for a peaceful solution, when it failed she decided to do something about it anyway. She knows it will cost lives, but those lives would be likely ruined by slavery anyway. All wars have body count, and at least in this case she fight for the others, for the slaves, not for herself, and so far it has had nothing to do with Rh'llor. There's no reason to believe she will fundamentally change and become some sort of a pious, religious figure that pushes her religious agenda on the uninterested folk of Westeros. It is possible that the South of Westeros wil become less religiously tolerant with the rise of the Faith Militant, and they may have a problem with an openly religiously tolerant or religiously apathetic ruler, but in that case the fault would be on their side. Also, Jon was not killed for letting the wildlings through , that was but one small component of that, if at all, but I don't want to derail the thread completely. And yup, he died. GRRM had it planned already in AGoT. See below (if you're interested, of course). *** (This is not a direct answer to anybody, but it's some more on the HotU symbolism and Ice&Fire symbolism generally:) The Old Nan says that the Others hate the warm blood of living creatures. GRRM also connects Ice to bloodlesness. This is Jeyne Poole's description from Theon in ADwD: Lack of fire and/or blood is negative. People in this thread say that blue color is negative, well, it is true that GRRM connects blue to to death and cold. Take the blue heart from the House of the Undying: Brrrh! The thing is, when people try to find something negative in that vision of the blue rose in the Wall of ice, they automatically go for it meaning bad things for Dany. Yeah, but it referrs to Jon's death that has already ocurred, not Dany's death. Dany is going to fall in love with a person that is undead - a zombie - as some simplify it. That should bring a lot of problems and a lot grief by itself. It's unlikely that love story is going to have a happy end, but it has nothing to do with Jon being a danger to Dany's life. We'll see how much GRRM will draw on that. So far blue roses in his books have been connected to some sort of romantic (or at least sexual) relationship that in two out of three (? arguably, if we count Sansa and Baelish) result in a child and tragedy. Btw, GRRM foreshadowed Jon's death experience ingeniously. The quote from AGoT Bran is notorious: But this one from AGoT Arya is even better: Who's going to return from the dead? Very nice, GRRM. Dany and Jon have a dichotomy; it's not 100%, but most of the time Dany is connected to fire and life, while Jon is connected to ice and death. When Ice and Fire can hate, they can also mate. So, I think that Dany's fires are: 1, for life - clearly the birth of the dragons 2, for death - burns the khals and/or the slavers? 3, to love - I think that either she wins the love of the Westerosi by stopping the wight army, or - more figuratively? - she thaws Jon's frozen heart; or perhaps the former does the latter?
  3. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    Ah, so your notion of honor is betrayal, and you'll ignore evidence that Northmen accept avuncular marriages because it doesn't fit what you want to happen. Not to mention that Jon's character's was originally envisioned as the guy who falls in love with a girl he believes his sister. Somehow I think that Jon finding out that Dany is his aunt isn't going to change his feelings for her. Personally I think that the drama is going to be more about finding out that Ned was his uncle than Dany being his aunt. You know, even if they broke up, then it's not a betrayal. Betrayal is stabbing someone in the back. It is true that many people in the fandom have been fantasying about it for years because they want to pit Dany and the Starks against each other: "Omg, Dany will want to burn Ned's kids, somebody stop her!" But there has never been any real reason to believe that aside of wild speculation and wishful thinking. Jon has no reason to betray Dany, especially if they are apparently on the same boat of being betrayed by Cersei. She's willing to reasonably talk to him, she's willing to join him in fighting the Others, he seems to genuinely like her and trust her abitilities if we go by the information he indeed voluntarily kneels to her. Deception is not in Show Jon's arsenal, not at all. Well, I think we've head bellyful of each other. I won't be disappointed if you choose to discontinue this conversation. I think we've arrived at an impasse, anyway.
  4. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    Maybe. Right now the badly disappointed person is you. Shuddering and all at the horrifying thought of these two fictional characters making out. Forgive if I find it funny as well as highly biased. As for Wall falling, sure, it's supposed to rise the stakes. As in "oh no, these two just found love, but now everything goes to hell and they may all die". As for the RLJ reveal, that has already been confirmed last year. HBO put it on the official site. Bran is just a moron that takes too long to put together the obvious because someone needs to spoonfeed the watchers that haven't paid attention and apparently believe that the reveal was that Jon is the child of Ned and Lyanna. But speaking of contrasting juxtaposition, since Cersei is suppossed to have a miscarriage, another woman may be getting pregnant during these last, very dramatic moments.
  5. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    Mea culpa, but I think I have a point anyway. If I am right, that is.
  6. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    Well, I think that GRRM chose to include this interesting piece of trivia for a reason. Anyway, theSibling incest is different from avuncular incest. In many European countries to this day laws forbid marriage only between (grand)parents and (grand)children and full and half siblings. Since what isn't forbidden is allowed, it means that nephew/aunt and uncle/niece are fair game. Granted, nobody does it nowdays, but historically it happened. It's not comparable to sibling incest that has been always unthinkable.
  7. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    I just find it amusing that people who have claimed that GRRM and/or D&D would never ever put these two characters together now claim that even if it happens of course they won't be the endgame! Never, ever. Like, if J/D comes to pass you've been terribly wrong about them before, so I wouldn't immediately start making predictions about the future development of their relationship if I were you, LOL.
  8. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    Yup. A baby. Hopefully a Luke and a Leia both.
  9. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    That makes you very unbiased, I'm sure. In the show we know for sure there's no afterlife. There's no Drogo and Rhaego waiting for Dany. That was the Undying's way of trying to bedazzle Dany, so she doesn't defend herself when they steal her life energy, much like in the books. Their spell was broken when heard her living dragon children call, and she turned her back on her dear dead ones. If it's a foreshadowing of anything, it makes more sense that she's on the brink of death, but the memory of what she has to live for gives her the strength to go on. FYI, Stark men have married their nieces before. If they could marry their brother's daughters, I don't see any reason why another could not be in a relationship with his father's sister.
  10. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    I see you're not going to give up hope even if it happens, LOL.
  11. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    Well, you said that if it happens in the show, you hope it's made up by D&D. That would be denial to me. If it happens on the show, it happens in the books as well. Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow are arguably the two most important characters in this entire story. A possible romantic relationship between them is not a meaningless detail that can be easily dismissed. I can tell you 99,9% that Jorah and Dany aren't going to end up in a romantic relationship. I am rarely so sure of anything. That's simply not GRRM's style, not at all*, and the show despite its divergences is still adapting the skeleton of the book plot, so, no, not gonna happen. * If you don't believe me, check out Dying of the Light, The Meathouse Man, The Tower of Ashes, Starlady, etc. I cannot think of a single example where the lady changed her mind in the end. This could be the first time, sure, but given that ASoIaF seems to be the remix of pretty much all GRRM has written before, I find it exceedingly unlikely.
  12. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    Yeah, but not all interpretations and theories are equal. As for the Jonrya hints, I guess it depends on what you count as a hint. Personally, if S8 epilogue has Jon screwing his little sister, I'll accept it as the canon ending, no matter how much I dislike it. I won't live in denial. The thing is, you don't seem to be able to do the same with Jonerys. You dislike it, so you fight tooth and nail to deny that GRRM has it planned in the books and D&D had to made it up to put popular characters together. Not sure what are you getting at with Jorah. Are trying to tell me the show playing up the "Ser Frienzone" angle for laughs somehow proves that they make all the romantic stuff up? Yeah, no. There are plenty of book readers who also feel that Dany should return Jorah's feelings. The thing is, GRRM does not write Nice Guy wish fulfillment fantasies. I've read his work outside of ASoIaF, and there are plenty of male protagonists that are rejected by women they love, and rejected they remain and have to learn to live with it on their own.
  13. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    Not necessarily romantic? In the previous post I've explained that blue roses have romantic conotations, both inside the story and outside of it. Well, given that she dislikes Hizdahr and Euron is bad news, of course that the second vision is not positive. It's not positive because Dany's feelings about this person aren't/won't be positive. It's dependant on her POV. Imagine if Janos Slynt entered HotU. Do you think that the guy who executes him would have been symbolized as a blue rose filling the air with sweetness? Of course not. He would be reprezented by something sad and/or grisly instead. Anyway, I've always thought that the bride of fire visions are connected to the three mounts. The silver one is about her first in the bed, the second one with the corpse is about someone she will dread, the one with a sweet-smelling rose is about someone she will love. Overall I just don't understand why you're searching for alternative explanations. J/D being romantic together does not go against anything in the books. In fact, it fits very well with HotU as has been debated to the death. You may not like it, but there's really no reason to believe that D&D are not showing us GRRM's intention for these two. And about Dany not finding Jon attractive... oh, she will. Tyrion lampshades it in his conversation to Aegon. The joke is, it's not about the imposter nephew that fights Lannisters, but about the real nephew that fights the Others. It's also a mistake to believe that these characters are stuck and won't go through further character development. Dany at the beginning of AGoT is a different person from Dany at the end of AGoT. Dany at the start of ACoK is different from Dany at end of ADwD. The same is true of Jon. They are both going through transformative experiences. If Dany met Drogo.today, she would likely abhor him as a slaver. The main reason why she came to love him was because he gave her a sense of agency when she has been powerless and abused her entire life. Later on she is attracted to Daario because he represents her desire to go fire and blood upon the slavers and doesn't want her to become the obedient queen in silk that pops out sons. When she comes to Westeros and fights the Others, she will be looking for something different again.
  14. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    My point is, this vision describes a relationship. A relationship between Dany and Jon, not Lyanna and Rhaegar. Jon smells sweetly to Dany. This vision is from her perspective. It's not about how Rhaegar or Lyanna viewed each other.The sweet quality describes Dany's own feelings, not Rhaegar or Lyanna's. Besides, if you were an author would you really choose a sweet-smelling blue rose as a symbol of familial relationship and would you then put the symbolic reprezentation of this familial relationship into a sequence of visions callled "bride of fire"? IMHO, that would be one hell of a misleading literary creation, LOL. Both in the context of ASoIaF and wider popular culture, blue roses are clearly connected to romantic love.
  15. Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

    But why does Dany give a fig about the long dead Lyanna Stark? No matter how romantic and full of love (or not) the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar was, it doesn't pertain to Dany. She has no reason to care for their love. They had died before she was born, and this is a triad of visions about her life, about why she is the bride of fire, what life has in store for her. Dany's never going to even meet Lyanna. She will meet Jon Snow. He is the rose in her vision, not his mother. I really don't see any reason to grasp for unlikely alternative explanations and claim that D&D are effectively lying to us about major story points.