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About lojzelote

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    I am but a young girl who knows nothing

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  1. I've always thought that they mean by that bastards mature faster psychically. Not that it makes it any less BS. If bastards mature faster, then it's because society treats them with disdain since birth, not because they are inherently quicker to learn. Pretty disgusting, particularly coming from an alleged champion of reason. Apparently this fourteen-year-old should bear the same burden as adults, because bastards grow faster. Let's not even get into the fact the fruit of the hard sacrifice of these adults includes becoming the in-laws of the royals, leading a comfortable life, and great prestige. What the fourteen-year-old will get out of his hard sacrifice is "life of honor" in the prison colony in Siberia without a possibility leave. The adults made their decision themselves after a careful consideration, the fourteen-year-old brought his intention up when he was drunk and afterwards his father made the decision of how spends the rest of his life for him based on third-hand information he had had no idea of until then. I'd puke. Westeros is a truly disgusting society.
  2. Do you also believe that Jon adopted from Ygritte the belief that kidnapping and raping a woman is okay and that it's the fault of the woman in question because she's not capable of defending herself? Or that the entire feudal system of the Seven Kingdoms is some "kneeler" nonsense and only pure strength matters? Stealing the fruit of the hard work of the defenceless is okay for him now too, I assume? And he agrees with Val that "unclean" little girls like Shireen ought to be killed? That's all the sort of stuff wildlings believe and Jon was exposed to it. If he's supposed to believe any of that any in future, he certainly does not believe it now. Anyway, your argument that the mariagge customs of the Westerosi are driven by some rational breeding programme lacks basis in text. We never see anyone reject a marriage between cousins on the pretext that they are already related. Anyway, GRRM has been pretty clear about what the Westerosi believe: Say what you will of Ramsay, he's not to blame for his own conception. It's his own choices that make him evil, not the inherent quality of his blood. And then we get stuff like this: Here we see what the Westerosi believe that "harms" blood. Bastards' blood supposedly aquires a malevolent quality due to the unauthorized manner of their conception. Marrying commoners erodes the quality of the "superior" noble blood, and therefore it is undesirable. Am I truly supposezed to believe that these people take some kind of rational, empirically supported stance to inbreeding? If they say things like this then it is driven by superstition, not by empirical evidence. It reminds me eerily of the following: If they really cared about empirical evidence, they would have been aware that bastards aren't any worse than other children, marrying commoners does not corrode worthiness of one's bloodline, and with it their entire ideology based on the superioty of royalty and nobility would have gone to hell ages ago. They would have also noticed that children born with birth defects are not evil and not a proof of their parents' bad nature. It is very hard for me to believe that the Westerosi incest taboo is based on science. They talk of quality of blood all the time, but it doesn't mean they understand alleles or homozygozyty or any of that stuff. For them having sexual relations with a parent or a sibling is a monstrous sin, because gods said so. OTOH gods said nothing of marrying one's cousins, therefore it's okay. Since they don't actually understand the mechanism of why marriage between close relatives may lead to bad ends, they can't understand why successive cousin marriage may be harmful either. Overall, GRRM has spoonfed us about what the Westerosi consider bad in all other cases, so I don't see why he would be hesitant to make it crystal clear to us that they consider cousin marriages or a succession of them harmful taboo as well.
  3. @Lord Varys Well, I've read some speculation that D&E The Village Hero could be set in Raventree Hall with Egg meeting Betha for the first time. If it's true it's possible that the deal between the Starks and the Blackwoods have already been made and that it concerned Melantha and Donnor. Maybe the Starks are hoping that if one of them marries Bloodraven's kinswoman, they will get a bit of nepotism from him and he finally marshalls the royal army to get them rid off of the Ironborn. The chance is that D&E may join the bridal party going north. Anyhow, the boring option is that Donnor tried to avenge his dying father and wound up dead himself, and Melantha and Willam inherited each other after Donnor and Lyanne Glover died. The idea of Donnor being incapable of succeeding his father is interesting tho. Anyhoo, seems like I've steered away from the topic. But discussing all these possibilities of what might have gone down, it amuses me that people are so eager to jump to the conclusion that it is all about demonstrating that avuncular marriage is an evil practice lol.
  4. @Lord Varys Well, to me Serena, Aregelle, Aranna, and their hypothetical children being dispossessed in favour of the male line offers enough turmoil. Most of all, it seems hard to imagine that an uncle would have been able to ascend to the lordship over his male line nephews, children or not. These children would have grown up in a couple of years into young men that would not have been pleased with losing their inheritance. What is a chance that the Northern houses that are feeling overlooked or slighted by the current Lord Stark or that are simply ambitious, offer their daughters in marriage to these Stark boys and support them in getting back their birthright? It would be like if Egg ascended to the throne without the Great Council, ignoring his nephew Maegor's claim. There might have been some kind of a royal decree, but the question is how that would have been supported. IMHO just the boys being young does not cut it. You can appoint a regent in such a case, in fact the Crown might have seen fit to send their own official to become some kind of Lord Protector (which the Northmen would not have welcomed, I imagine). Another issue is who was sitting on the Iron Throne at that time. I must say that exact years are foggy for me. We know that Cregan was a teen at the outbreak of the Dance and he came to be called "the Old Man in the North", so IMHO he must have died when he was at least seventy, with his oldest surviving son Jonnel succeeding him as the Lord of Winterfell. The problem is that around this time kings on the Iron Throne are changing quite rapidly with both Daeron and Baelor each going wild over his own area of interest, their uncle Viserys having his hands full of trying to manage the situation, followed by Aegon the Unworthy that simply couldn't give a fig. Somehow, I think that the Northern crisis (if there was any) might have gone relatively unnoticed as long as there wasn't an open civil war. If after the dust settled the Northmen announced to Aegon that they want Brandon Stark and his sons instead of Serena Stark and her daughters, Aegon's answer might have been in the vein of, "Well, whatever suits you, chaps." If only Serena's girls survived, then I think it is all the more likely that Viserys and Aegon would have ruled in favour of Brandon and his line as they themselves ascended to the throne discarding their three nieces/female cousins in the process. Regarding Serena's and Sansa's marriages, we don't know for sure iether way, but to me makes vastly more sense their having been married to their uncles first. Serena marrying Jon Umber first is Rhaenys, the Queen who Never Was, marrying Corlys Velaryon instead of Viserys all over again. I'd like to think that the Starks have learnt from the mistakes of the Targaryens in the previous generations, and Cregan and Rickon had not married off Serena to some guy before securing succession by getting a male heir (and spare) first. Other than that, a very hypothetical point: Serena was the daughter of Jeyne Manderly, a member of probably the wealthiest, most sophisticated family in the North. For her to be married off to an Umber from the cold shadow of the Wall seems quite like an unplesant cultural change. Imagine Sansa getting married to the Smalljon. Even Arya might not have been all that happy among Umbers, if the rumours of their secretly raping maidens on their wedding night are based on truth. The Umbers and the clans seem to be merely a step above the wildlings culture-wise. Of course, it is also possible that Serena had been much closer to her grandmother Arra Norrey than her mother Jeyne Manderly, and she was thrilled to marry Jon Umber, and after all the trouble she went through later, it became her heart's desire for her firstborn daughter to also marry an Umber and leave governance of the North to men. It is possible, but I find the other option more believable. It is also worthwhile to note that Brandon Stark's firstborn son was married to Myriame Manderly, which to me suggest that he may have tried to bring the Manderlys to his side from Serena's and her daughters'. Edit: I have just realized I forgot all about Barth Blacksword, who would have preceded Brandon. That said, it seems sort of unlikely he was Lord for long? He didn't even get around to marrying, although it may be that he didn't care for a marriage and was content to leave WF to his brother and nephews.
  5. The option that offers itself is that the boys predeceased their father. We know that the Stark family tree includes also children that died very young - such as Rickard's half-brother Brandon. After that it was down to girls, which the Northern houses might not have liked. The Umbers are prominent due to their boisterousness and skill at arms, but I don't get the impression they are powerful in the way the Karstarks or Manderly's are. My theory in regards to the double Umber marriage is that the Umbers in question were loyal followers of the new Lord Stark (much like the Greatjon adored Robb), and these marriages were a way of rewarding them as well as getting safely rid off of the dangerous female claimants. As to the Cerwyns, they seem to be the Northern version of the Stokeworths to me - the Starks have socialized with them due to the closeness of their lands, but they are not really all that important.
  6. I doubt that the Westerosi see much of a difference - they don't really make any as far as brother/sister or half-brother/half-sister marriage is concerned. And what of it being a political consolidation? 90 % of marriages between nobles is based on politicking. I doubt that a half-brother and half-sister would be allowed to marry for "political consolidation" in any case. If such unions were othewise considered abominable and unacceptable, these marriages wouldn't have taken place, because they wouldn't have helped the involved to keep them in power to begin with. Anyway, you keep repeating that cousin marriage isn't considered incestous while avuncular *is*. Where is it said exactly? It was recounted in this very thread what kind of union Westerosi define as incest; uncle/niece and nephew/aunt is not there. Unsurprisingly, they are less common, because of the usual generational age difference and because the closer the kinship the lesser the need for further maintaining the alliance. Much like in the real life history, where cousin marriage was also far more common - which doesn't negate that the uncle/niece thing was a feasible choice to make on the part of the ruling house as long as they got a dispensation by the Pope. For that matter, both "avuncular" and "avunculate" is possible.
  7. Oh, I understand very well. The point is, Jon may find out as well. Plus, there is no proof that avuncular marriage is included in their incest taboo. In fact, we have evidence that is not true. Please show me a passage where the Northmen condemn an avuncular marriage in particular. Then I will believe that those historical Starks were really weird and don't count.
  8. Guys, you should really stop with this "old gods forbid it" nonsense. The so-called 'old gods' are actually half-fossilized Children of the Forrest who don't give two fucks about how humans breed, which Jon may find out soon, since Bran is now among them and may try to talk to his siblings. For that matter, the old gods supposedly forbid sexual relations and marriage between parents and children and between siblings. Everything else is fair game. No matter how much you try to skim over it, historically Starks married uncles to nieces. That is a historical fact in this fictional universe. The only arguments against it are "it was long ago" (by ASoIaF standards, no, it really wasn't) or "these Starks were bad" for which there is zero evidence. I dare anyone to find me an actual quote from any of the books, in which the Northmen call an avuncular union an abomination. Where is it? Then I will reconsider my argument that avuncular marriage between historical Starks shows that the North is okay with it. As for GRRM "condoning incest"... do realize that these books are certain to end with a monarchy, right? People of Westeros know no other form of rule. Do you really believe that writing such ending means that GRRM "condones" hereditary rulership in our real world? Do you believe that GRRM condones that some guy (let's call him Ned Stark) sees an escaped prisoner and decides on the spot that this person that is not in any way threatening him deserves to die, and he becomes the said person's judge, jury, and executioner? @Ser Quork At one point in history, there had been at least a dozen fully grown dragons right there in Westeros. Had the Others invaded the Seven Kingdoms at that point? They had not. Is there any mention of the rumors of the Others reappearing around that time? There is not. Therefore I ask the question, if the Others were not roused by dragons breeding and growing in Westeros for generations, why would a trio of baby dragons somewhere in Essos light the proverbial fire under their asses just now?
  9. I think that what actually comes closest to the description of "lilac" eyes are the eyes of albinos. They have very little melanin which makes their iris the palest blue that together with the red blood shining through gives them a violet appearance, at least in certain light. Of course, the Targaryens are not albinos, since Bloodraven was supposed to differ in appearance, and Egg got all bronze-skinned while in Dorne. But it's kinda funny how Bloodraven's appearance - including his deep red eyes - sets him apart from his kin, while irl albinos are the ones that actually can have purplish eyes. I have no idea what could be considered the real life equivalent of Darkstar's dark purple eyes. Well, I though that that particular picture was a bit strange, because Egg looked like his sons' older brother instead of a father. Also Betha and the girls were missing. Disrespect! Hm, it is possible. Although it would be surpising it has not been mentioned so far. Westeros is a very ableist society, and I can't imagine that a king with a deformed hand wouldn't have been worth notice and some slander. In fact I was surprised that in TWoIaF, the birth of Aegon II's Jaehaerys was presented as a positive development for the Aegon faction. During real Middle Ages, it would have been deemed a sign of witchcraft and destroyed any pretender's reputation. One got to wonder how hideous Jaehaerys' hand would have to have been for him to keep it covered if the other Jaehaerys having extra fingers was no big deal. To me the most interesting thing about Jaehaerys II is that he appears to be a precursor to Rhaegar. Both had done very foolish things in the name of love and prophecy. Jaehaerys got away with it, Rhaegar did not (I'd wager that having Egg for a father instead of Aerys helped), but the handsome, strapping tourney champion Rhaegar was much more popular than his frail grandfather had ever been. I don't think we have got a detailed description of any earlier Baratheons, but I've always assumed that they are de facto the Durrandons going by a new name. If a blue-eyed Rhaelle Targaryen and black eyed Ormund Baratheon could have had a blue-eyed son, so could had had a blue-eyed son a blue-eyed Argella Durrandon and black-eyed Orys Baratheon. It's not a hill I'm willing to die on though.
  10. At the end of S6 D&D also said that S7 will see conflict between Jon and Sansa, because Sansa feels overlooked and dissatisfied with Jon becoming king... which ultimately instead of treason or rebellion translated into like three scenes of whinging. Also according to the behind the episodes comments, the Sansa-Arya beef this season was super serious. OMG, will Sansa kill Arya or will Arya kill her first? Tune up next episode to see what will happen. Stark blood will run! I'd be seriously willing to bet my five years' worth of pay that the great incest drama will go the same route as the above examples. But if you really still buy D&D hyperboling a faux conflict... at least you will be surprised by the development, I guess. Much like with the Lads leaks for this season, LOL.
  11. Then he's probably got more melanin than is usual, assuming he is Caucasian.
  12. Yes, I believe that blue eyes in newborns are the standard. Well yeah, Elizabeth Taylor´s eyes are supposed to look violet in certain light, no? I believe that GRRM himself said that Ashara´s eyes were like that. Which was a bit of a letdown to be honest. They seem pretty blue to me for most part. I expected a more vibrant purple hue like in my avatar. You can recognize eye color in that small picture? Clearly, Daeron had silver hair, but it doesn´t neccessarily equal purple eyes as well. I have always assumed that Shaera looked pure Valyrian, mostly because she was Aerys´s mother and.. it just seems right that both parents of the Mad King would have looked like protypical Targaryens? No idea about Rhaelle, but IIRC weren´t the blue eyes supposed to be a part of the Baratheon superdominant look? It could have been passed down from the Durrandons. Duncan I´ve always imagined to look like a Blackwood entirely, but it´s only my gut feeling.
  13. @BalerionTheCat As it happens, "the prince" is only a translation from "the dragon",... and the dragon is supposed to have three heads. We cannot take Rhaegar´s words as gospel, because Rhaegar had been wrong before. Would be ironic if Rhaegar´s attempt to get the third head ultimately led to the third head missing, because Rhaenys and Aegon had been killed in the Rebellion. OTOH maybe it could a good thing after all, since the third might have a third wheel much like Visenya, which hadn´t worked out all that well. Two’s company, three’s a crowd.
  14. I´m speaking of this phenomenon. It is supposed to come into play when family members that had been separated during childhood meet later in life. You can google it if you care.
  15. Well, I used to have blue eyes as a baby, but during a couple of months they have gone utterly grey with no hint of blue. It was my grandmother that had beautiful blue-grey eyes and I used to kinda envy them to her lol. Targaryens can have differently colored eyes. One of Shiera Seastar´s eyes mismatched eyes was famously green. If one eye can be green, why not another? Plus all three eldest Rhaenyra´s sons sported brown eyes. That aside, we don´t know the eye color of many other Targaryens with a non-Targ parent - like in case of Egg and Betha´s children. We know that Jaehaerys had huge pale lilac eyes, but the other four are a mystery. I guess I simply see no reason as to we should mistrust the text in this case. Jon´s eyes have been described the exact same way as Ned´s, and everybody thinks they are grey, including himself. Dark puple eyes are not downright impossible for him, but there is sure as hell nothing in the text that would indicate that they are not really gray right now. I mean, GRRM even bothered with including Ashara Dayne as a candidate for Jon´s mother. There is little reason as to why he should hide from readers that Jon´s eyes are really purple. Ashara Dayne is also the reason why I believe that people would have been looking for the puple in his eyes. Not only Catelyn, but all those gossiping servants as well. For that matter, Alisser Thorne´s eyes were described as onyx, so darkly colored eyes cannot be all that special.