lojzelote

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About lojzelote

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    I am but a young girl who knows nothing

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  1. To be honest, that can be a pretty minor thing that ultimately changes nothing in the grand scheme of things, especially if secondary and terciary characters are involved. He says all the time that he doesn't know how he gets from point A to point B and that he's a gardener writer and that he doesn't like writing when he has everything decided and planned out, so I don't find the idea that he came up with some twist along the way at all surprising. As long as it doesn't affect any of the core characters in a fundamental way, I don't think it can affect the endgame. I think this alleged twist is just something to spice his writing up along the way, not something essential. For that matter, I do believe that D&D will go with the ending GRRM gave them (although I'm sure there will be plenty dissatisfied folks who will claim otherwise because denial). But, I don't certainly expect them or GRRM comment on that; for D&D it is a matter of courtesy, and for GRRM, well, he wants people to buy his books (should they ever come out). The case in point: the three upcoming plot developments that shocked D&D. The first one was Stannis burning Shireen, but when they talked about it, a notable number of fans threw temper tantrums that they are spoiling GRRM's secrets and that they should keep silent about what is book material and what they made up (that doesn't keep many of them speculating that it's anybody else than Stannis that burns Shireen, because denial). The second one was Bran Hodoring poor Wilis/Walder via mental time travel, and the third one should be something close to the ending IIRC. So, if they keep that, I don't see why they wouldn't keep the actual ending.
  2. I suspect Val may bring trouble as well. The warning bells are that she started talking of killing Shireen. Jon was obviously disturbed by her ideas. If she or other wildlings try anything while he is out of comission, Selyse won't take well to that. As opposed to Show Selyse, Book Selyse loves her daughter and does not look down upon her as an unworthy heir. Any incident of that kind would cause even more infighting at the Wall. Well, for what it's worth, I distinctly remember an interview where GRRM stated that after Tyrion his favorite characters are Dany and Arya. I do believe that GRRM is perfectly capable of killing his favorites and not killing his non-favorites, but I very much doubt that he puts more care into Sansa's progress than into theirs, and I don't consider it likely he is ever going to give more narrative importance to Sansa than either Arya or Dany. So, while I don't know if he kills her off, I certainly don't expect her to become the ultimate Lady of Winterfell or queen of any kind. As for Daenerys capacities as a ruler, I think they are not that bad for a 16-year-old girl with little education and mentor figures that suck that finds herself in a very complex situation. Realistically, you can't expect miracles. I'll be damned if one or both them aren't the final ruler. IMHO it's far more likely he's showing us first hard steps of the next king and/or queen than that some guy or gal jumps out of the woodwork at the end, and we are left wondering. Personally, I tend to believe that Dany's situation was the more difficult one. Not only they have no crops or no money, but the city comes under siege and there's a sickness. OTOH while the North is depleted, Jon notes that during the preceding summer the lords have been generous to the NW, so their food stores are full. There is probably not enough to get them through the winter, especially with so many new mouths to feed incoming, but their situation's not as pressing. There's also no sickness (Val's fearmongering nonwithstanding). The Others may be a frightful enemy, but they don't make any move whatsoever in the duration of Jon's commandership. The Weeper's band has posed a bigger problem so far, although even that was just that one incident with the three rangers IIRC. Again, in Meereen Dany has it worse because the enemy dwells inside the city walls. Speaking of the Sons of the Harpy, Dany has not been successful in trying to bridge the gap between the freedmen and the former slaver elite, but she made an attempt by marrying Hizdahr and she made a show of adopting Meereenese customs, although she found them distasteful. At the Wall, the black brothers did not play at KKK, but the armistice between the Watchmen and the Free Folk is still fragile. Since the wildlings swore directly to Jon and since Jon is now out of picture, I doubt the armistice is going to last. Not to mention that Jon did not try very hard to sell the NW officers his plans and completely ignored their growing dissatisfaction, while he sent Mance on an undercover mission that had the potential to endanger the entire institution he was responsible for. We saw how that turned out. It's going to be a miracle if there's no massacre the moments after he was stabbed. IMHO Dany's storyline in ADwD makes for a more boring reading because readers don't care for the characters or the setting, but she's not actually any worse or less effective than Jon, while Jon should be much better, since he was tutored by Eddard Stark, Maester Luwin, and Jeor Mormont, while Dany got most of her knowledge from Viserys and Drogo. Just to make it clear, I don't think that Jon sucks, I do think it is clever of him to be gathering intel on the Others and making preparations in case they reappear, and it's good that someone is trying to supress Northern feud with the Free Folk, but aside of people who need his help, he's not all that good at convincing others of his plans. The Braavosi banker's arrival to the Wall and he can make a deal with him is a bit of a lucky break and although it was an opportunity well used, it's not clear how he's going to pay for future shipments and he wonders if there's something he missed because he feels that the deal was made too easily (which probably means there is some setback or something he has not realized). I certainly don't understand where from comes the idea that Dany was so terrible, while he was outstanding Aragorn material. Anyway, I'm certain that any other novice ruler GRRM would be writing about would fail equally. That was kinda his point. I guffaw every time someone posts Sansa's quote of "if I'm ever queen, I will make them love me" as a proof that she'd make for an amazing queen. I may agree that it's better filosofy than Cersei's "I will make them fear me shtick", but overall that's a too naive idea. Sansa herself realizes that when she sees the crowd's adoration of Maegaery (although that was her family that starved them), while she was harassed and almost raped by them not so long ago (although she never harmed them). Similarly Tyrion was the most despised of the despised Lannisters, although he was the one that ensured that city defences held till the reinforcements came during the Blackwater. The black brothers grumble when Jon decides they get smallers rations since now on, although it's a wise preemptive decision.
  3. The thing is, Jon should have never sent Mance Rayder anywhere. He should have either swiftly executed him for being a Night's Watch deserter that joined the wildlings and led aggressive war against the NW, or he should have pretended he's not aware that Rattleshirt is in fact Mance Rayder in disguise and kept him locked up as a prisoner of war. Jon Snow knows that Mance Rayder cannot be fully trusted - because he has already turned against the Watch once and because Jon happened to personally betray Mance and his wildlings not so long ago in ASoS. Mance is a trickster, and he might want to get even. Jon believes he did not act wisely in sending Mance away: Jon Snow is certainly under no impression that Mance Rayder is acting upon the order King Stannis, is he? So yeah, he sent a potentially highly untrustworthy guy away with a small band of fighters on a mission that would be considered treasonous, and he has done so secretly, because he knows that his actions would never fly with the rest of the NW establishment. (He's not the first one to do so - Catelyn's freeing Jaime in exchange for daughters comes to mind. She also knew it was not wise, but she was just desperate.) As for where he sent him - it doesn't matter. The important thing is that he should not have sent him at all. By sending him away, he risked that Mance and his spearwives will be caught and forced to talk about who sent them and why, or even if they safely made it back to the Wall with Arya, they might have been followed by random onlookers/villagers/scouts or someone at the Wall might feel it's his duty to alert the Boltons that Arya Bolton, Lady of Winterfell, is being shipped away without her husband's knowledge and on someone else's orders. How much plausible deniability would Jon have that Mance's party was not acting on his orders? What if they threatened or tortured anyone who might possibly know something? What if they found out that it was Edd, Jon's personal squire, that had a part in the mission? Even if they didn't find any clue leading directly to Jon, they still might see fit to punish him (and possibly the entire organization) for not having any clue what is going on at the Wall while it is under his command. The possibilities in which Mance's mission could have gone wrong are endless, and once the Boltons would have caught the wind that someone in the NW meddles in their affairs, it would have brought their wrath upon the institution - and that's why Jon's decision-making here is problematic. As the LC he's the one responsible for the good of the NW and its members. By sending Mance and co after Arya, he prioritized the well-being of Arya Stark Bolton over the NW and its men. That's a terrible breach against the trust they put into him when they had chosen him (or at least accepted him) as their leader. If he's aware that the Boltons are cruel and/or unreasonable that makes it all the worse, because then they can prove cruel and unreasonable while dealing with the NW.
  4. Hm, for those undecided, do try Adam Feldman's Meereenese Blot essays. He made a series for Jon, but also for Dany, Tyrion, and Arianne. GRRM gave them quite a glowing praise: source Oh, and he's certainly not speaking only of the Dany ones, because the Jon ones followed them in a quick succession in 2013, and this interview apparently comes from 2015. I bet that Martin read all the analysis of his characters available, and I do doubt he would be so generous with his praise if the author of the blog got Dany right, but other characters wrong. So, for what it's worth, here's his tate on the Mance mission. I tend to agree with him; Jon is an immensely sympathetic character, but he made his own bed.
  5. I'm glad to hear it. I'm sure that plenty of historical Targaryens may have come to fervently worship Rh'llor had they exposed to the Rh'llorist learnings. But why should Dany be among them? Some historical Targaryens - such as Baelor the Blessed, Septa Rhaena, or Queen Naerys - were devout followers of the Seven, Baelor to the point of fanatism. That does not mean that Dany is going to fast herself to death like him. You must also take into account that Rh'llorism already existed in the times of the Valyrian Freehold, but apparently it was not the predominant religion of the Valyrian dragonlords. They followed gods like Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar. It's in fact stated that religion did not meant much to them - gods were honored, not feared - which is very much Dany's approach. Hell, they named their pets after their gods. Dragons may be terrifying predators, but to Valyrians they were their mounts that bent to their will and obeyed their commands. I have no idea if the ancient Greeks or Romans called their horses and hounds after the gods of their pantheon, but I'm sure that in the Christian or Islamic world such a thing would bring much outrage (in fact, I remember a case from a few years ago, where a teddy bear was named Allah, and some believers did not take it well). Whatever attraction the old Valyrians may have felt towards the god of fire, they simply did not care enough. They liked their gods multiple and toothless. To them religion was mostly a tool to control the masses. Why do you believe that Daenerys is more susceptible? She seems as irreligious as the old Valyrians, if not more so. So far she has always adapted to the local faith without throwing away the old ones. She simply does not care much if there is the *right* or the *best* god. Why should any of that change with meeting Benerro or Moqorro? Is that because they tell her she's Azor Ahai? Well, then it comes down to the way we view her. I simply do not consider her as easily impressionable. Well, who cares? They can claim what they want. If she plays by her own rules, there's not much they can do about it. Also, I don't think that Azor Ahai or the Stallion that mounts the world are supposed to be deities. Azor Azai carries religious contations since he's "the Lord's chosen", but that makes him more of a Moses or Mohammed than a Jesus, IMO. The Stallion is pretty irreligious. He's a hero that is one day supposed to unite all the Dothraki, no moral or ideological virtues or ideals attached. He's not supposed to fight against the darkness or any such. So did almost anybody else. Abegging brother in King's Landing claims it is a sign of the Seven's displeasure at the misbehaviour of the elites: “Corruption!” the man cried shrilly. “There is the warning! Behold the Father’s scourge!” He pointed at the fuzzy red wound in the sky. From this vantage, the distant castle on Aegon’s High Hill was directly behind him, with the comet hanging forebodingly over its towers. A clever choice of stage, Tyrion reflected. “We have become swollen, bloated, foul. Brother couples with sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a twisted little monkey demon. Highborn ladies fornicate with fools and give birth to monsters! Even the High Septon has forgotten the gods! He bathes in scented waters and grows fat on lark and lamprey while his people starve! Pride comes before prayer, maggots rule our castles, and gold is all... but no more! The Rotten Summer is at an end, and the Whoremonger King is brought low! When the boar did open him, a great stench rose to heaven and a thousand snakes slid forth from his belly, hissing and biting!” He jabbed his bony finger back at comet and castle. “There comes the Harbinger! Cleanse yourselves, the gods cry out, lest ye be cleansed! Bathe in the wine of righteousness, or you shall be bathed in fire! Fire!” The Riverlanders and the Ironborn interpret it different ways as well, the ones that suit them: “Robb has broken fealty with the Iron Throne and crowned himself King in the North. There’s war.” “The maester’s ravens fly over salt as soon as rock. This news is old and cold.” “It means a new day, Uncle.” “Every morning brings a new day, much like the old.” “In Riverrun, they would tell you different. They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A messenger from the gods.” “A sign it is,” the priest agreed, “but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did.” Theon's own idea is specific to him: Theon had never seen a more stirring sight. In the sky behind the castle, the fine red tail of the comet was visible through thin, scuttling clouds. All the way from Riverrun to Seagard, the Mallisters had argued about its meaning. It is my comet, Theon told himself, sliding a hand into his fur-lined cloak to touch the oilskin pouch snug in its pocket. Inside was the letter Robb Stark had given him, paper as good as a crown. Maester Cressen: I must rest, Maester Cressen told himself. I must have all my strength come dark. My hands must not shake, nor my courage flag. It is a dreadful thing I do, yet it must be done. If there are gods, surely they will forgive me. He had slept so poorly of late. A nap would refresh him for the ordeal ahead. Wearily, he tottered off to his bed. Yet when he closed his eyes, he could still see the light of the comet, red and flery and vividly alive amidst the darkness of his dreams. Perhaps it is my comet, he thought drowsily at the last, just before sleep took him. An omen of blood, foretelling murder... yes... Joffrey's court vs. the common people: The morning of King Joffrey’s name day dawned bright and windy, with the long tail of the great comet visible through the high scuttling clouds. Sansa was watching it from her tower window when Ser Arys Oakheart arrived to escort her down to the tourney grounds. “What do you think it means?” she asked him. “Glory to your betrothed,” Ser Arys answered at once. “See how it flames across the sky today on His Grace’s name day, as if the gods themselves had raised a banner in his honor. The smallfolk have named it King Joffrey’s Comet.” Doubtless that was what they told Joffrey; Sansa was not so sure. “I’ve heard servants calling it the Dragon’s Tail.” Osha is of similar belief as the servants: When Bran repeated that to Osha, she laughed aloud. “Your wolves have more wit than your maester,” the wildling woman said. “They know truths the grey man has forgotten.” The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.” (Btw, here is a nice example of "sweet" being used in an unironic manner. For those who need it.) (Personally I believe that Osha and the servants are closest to truth: IMHO the comet heralds that magic is getting stronger which enabled the return of the dragons... which in effect made the magic even stronger. A chicken and an egg situation.) So, Dany believes it pertains to her quest somehow. Years ago Rhaegar believed that the first comet heralded Aegon's birth, but as far as we know he did not convert to Rh'llorism, although we can be reasonably sure that he was familiar with the religion as well as the legend of Azor Ahai. He was supposed to read plenty of old, dusty books and scrolls on this topic, after all. So, if Rhaegar was not into it, then why should Dany? As opposed to Rhaegar she has not made it her life's mission to become ot to sire the saviour of the world. Melisandre has some other vision of her family than the Lot Seven memory? I honestly don't remember. Daenerys is a daughter of House Targaryen, who consider themselves blood of the dragon and who share a magical connection to their dragons (as much as fandom likes to dispute that). Recently she broke the known record and instead of one dragon she hatched dragons three. "… and folded. The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I." or And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear.for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children. The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world. I don't think Dany needs some red priests to tell her what "bride of fire" means. She already is a bride of fire. I see no reason to add Rh'llor to the mix to make it fit. It already fits. That's a misunderstanding of Dany's character. She's not powerhungry. Viserys told her that the Seven Kingdoms are their home, the home where they would be happy and safe. Dany's childhood sucked, she believed that assassins are out there to kill them, their hosts were throwing them into the street after each couple of months, her brother grew abusive. She's never found a home and Westeros is the thing in her imagination. It's not the crown and the power she's after, it's the sense of belonging. Re-conquering Westeros is a less noble goal than seeting slaves free, no argument on that. But tell, me: why should that consume her and drive her insane? There have been multiple contenders for the throne: Joffrey, Robb, Balon, Stannis, Renly, Aegon, Euron,... Stannis even dreams of a crown of fire consuming him. Why is Daenerys Targaryen singled out as being so susceptible? Why is not Aegon also judged for setting to regain the crown of his ancestors? He could turn mad, no? He has a bad temper, much worse temper than Dany, he takes bad to the idea that someone may say "no" to him. Well, Dany gets this from readership because we have access to her mind, we can see her doubts, her warts and all. The warts do not change that so far she has been one of the most selfless pretenders. The wars she waged have been on the account of others, not her own. That may change, but that hardly makes her worse than any of the fellow pretenders that either feel the crown is theirs by right or simply want more power. Let's not paint her as some impending nutcase for that. We don't even know what she will believe when she finally makes it Westeros. Perhaps she will want to strike a deal with Aegon against Euron or some such. Rh'llor... I don't know if the word has any further significance in-world, but irl it's probably just a word GRRM made up: (GRRM on his earlier writing, from Dreamsongs) Not really, the straw that broke the camel's back was their Lord Commander reading to the entire Shieldhall outloud a letter in which the Lord of Winterfell and the son of the Warden of the North accuses him of kidnapping his wife and threatens with retaliation if his conditions are not met. Their LC - instead of denying it or making any peaceful attempt - tells the Watch he's going to take the wildlings and attack the said Lord of Winterfell. I must I can't blame March and co. for... overreacting. Yeah, you can believe all you want that March is a baddie that was after Jon all along. His tears tell a different story. Whatever his faults may be, he did not want to kill this boy, but he felt his hand was forced. Much like Brutus with Caesar. The inspiration is apparent. Jon is not connected to Jon? That vision and memory are about Jon. I'll put the rest into spoilers, because I don't want to derail the thread
  6. I'm no Lord Varys, but if you allow me to share my thoughts with you... First of all, Dany is a very religiously tolerant person, which almost certainly has roots in her childhood, when she traveled from a city to city and has encountered various gods and faiths, but never stayed anywhere for long. She knows her family comes from the Seven Kingdoms, where the predominant religion is the Seven, so she honors them, at least nominally. When she lives with the Dothraki, she adapts and accepts their beliefs. When she rules Meereen, she agrees to conduct a ceremony in the rites of the Meereenese gods. She is cosmopolitan in her upbringing and beliefs and quite irreligious. I very much doubt that she will become an outspoken champion of any faith or that she is going to force her faith upon others. Even if she 'converts' to R'hllorism, then I doubt that the conversion will be any different from her 'conversion' to the Dothraki or Meereenese gods, or even the Great Shepherd. As for "Fire and blood"... that one is often used as a proof that she is now the Devil and out there to burn innocent children... well, no, she is not. I don't know how much you are familiar with GRRM's novel Fevre Dream, but that one shares a similar theme. Its protagonist (and ultimately a hero) is Abner March (and he's nothing like Bowen March, so put the pitchfork away ), who is a ship captain in the US of the 19th century. He doesn't care for slavery overmuch, but his mild discomfort does not lead him to any actual actions to attempt to liberate his fellow human beings. That is, until the events of the book transpire. In the duration of the book events, he becomes an abolitionist, because he comes to understand how terrible slavery truly is and that it touches him as well. This is what he says/thinks after he foregoes the change: This is the transition that Dany has undergone in ADwD. She tried to be reasonable, she tried to compromise with the Meereenese slaver elite, but they did not reciprocate her efforts. What they want is the return of status quo. Step by step she was forced to take away from her reforms, she had reopen the fighting pits, she had to marry a guy who was quite obviously is some way connected to the Sons of the Harpy to stop the attacks. So she said: No more. She's not going to play them a fool. If they want it the hard way, they will get it the hard way. For that matter, fire and blood have positive connotations as well. Fire and blood are connected to life and the ability to feel.*** "Fire consumes" is often viewed as something negative, but it kinda depends if the thing it consumes is worth saving, doesn't it? Sometimes the old is bad and has to go. OTOH "Ice preserves" is not always positive. Ice enables the existence of the Others and wights, who would otherwise rot and fall apart rather quickly. Preserving such societies as the Slaver's Bay is also not positive. It's rather clear that GRRM disapproves of slavery under any conditions and thinks that something anything should be done about it. What will she take away from when she sails for Westeros? Hard to say, since we're missing an entire book of character growth. She could go west because she wants to help her kinsman Aegon, she could go there because she knows/suspects that Aegon is fraud and is stealing her family name and birthright, she could go there because Marwyn tells her that Westeros needs her, she could go there because of the combination of those three options... or perhaps because of something completely different, for all we know. But the idea that she will burn people indiscriminately, not to mention to fulfill an agenda a particular faith... No, that is nothing like Daenerys Targaryen. Daenerys Targaryen tried for a peaceful solution, when it failed she decided to do something about it anyway. She knows it will cost lives, but those lives would be likely ruined by slavery anyway. All wars have body count, and at least in this case she fight for the others, for the slaves, not for herself, and so far it has had nothing to do with Rh'llor. There's no reason to believe she will fundamentally change and become some sort of a pious, religious figure that pushes her religious agenda on the uninterested folk of Westeros. It is possible that the South of Westeros wil become less religiously tolerant with the rise of the Faith Militant, and they may have a problem with an openly religiously tolerant or religiously apathetic ruler, but in that case the fault would be on their side. Also, Jon was not killed for letting the wildlings through , that was but one small component of that, if at all, but I don't want to derail the thread completely. And yup, he died. GRRM had it planned already in AGoT. See below (if you're interested, of course). *** (This is not a direct answer to anybody, but it's some more on the HotU symbolism and Ice&Fire symbolism generally:) The Old Nan says that the Others hate the warm blood of living creatures. GRRM also connects Ice to bloodlesness. This is Jeyne Poole's description from Theon in ADwD: Lack of fire and/or blood is negative. People in this thread say that blue color is negative, well, it is true that GRRM connects blue to to death and cold. Take the blue heart from the House of the Undying: Brrrh! The thing is, when people try to find something negative in that vision of the blue rose in the Wall of ice, they automatically go for it meaning bad things for Dany. Yeah, but it referrs to Jon's death that has already ocurred, not Dany's death. Dany is going to fall in love with a person that is undead - a zombie - as some simplify it. That should bring a lot of problems and a lot grief by itself. It's unlikely that love story is going to have a happy end, but it has nothing to do with Jon being a danger to Dany's life. We'll see how much GRRM will draw on that. So far blue roses in his books have been connected to some sort of romantic (or at least sexual) relationship that in two out of three (? arguably, if we count Sansa and Baelish) result in a child and tragedy. Btw, GRRM foreshadowed Jon's death experience ingeniously. The quote from AGoT Bran is notorious: But this one from AGoT Arya is even better: Who's going to return from the dead? Very nice, GRRM. Dany and Jon have a dichotomy; it's not 100%, but most of the time Dany is connected to fire and life, while Jon is connected to ice and death. When Ice and Fire can hate, they can also mate. So, I think that Dany's fires are: 1, for life - clearly the birth of the dragons 2, for death - burns the khals and/or the slavers? 3, to love - I think that either she wins the love of the Westerosi by stopping the wight army, or - more figuratively? - she thaws Jon's frozen heart; or perhaps the former does the latter?
  7. Ah, so your notion of honor is betrayal, and you'll ignore evidence that Northmen accept avuncular marriages because it doesn't fit what you want to happen. Not to mention that Jon's character's was originally envisioned as the guy who falls in love with a girl he believes his sister. Somehow I think that Jon finding out that Dany is his aunt isn't going to change his feelings for her. Personally I think that the drama is going to be more about finding out that Ned was his uncle than Dany being his aunt. You know, even if they broke up, then it's not a betrayal. Betrayal is stabbing someone in the back. It is true that many people in the fandom have been fantasying about it for years because they want to pit Dany and the Starks against each other: "Omg, Dany will want to burn Ned's kids, somebody stop her!" But there has never been any real reason to believe that aside of wild speculation and wishful thinking. Jon has no reason to betray Dany, especially if they are apparently on the same boat of being betrayed by Cersei. She's willing to reasonably talk to him, she's willing to join him in fighting the Others, he seems to genuinely like her and trust her abitilities if we go by the information he indeed voluntarily kneels to her. Deception is not in Show Jon's arsenal, not at all. Well, I think we've head bellyful of each other. I won't be disappointed if you choose to discontinue this conversation. I think we've arrived at an impasse, anyway.
  8. Maybe. Right now the badly disappointed person is you. Shuddering and all at the horrifying thought of these two fictional characters making out. Forgive if I find it funny as well as highly biased. As for Wall falling, sure, it's supposed to rise the stakes. As in "oh no, these two just found love, but now everything goes to hell and they may all die". As for the RLJ reveal, that has already been confirmed last year. HBO put it on the official site. Bran is just a moron that takes too long to put together the obvious because someone needs to spoonfeed the watchers that haven't paid attention and apparently believe that the reveal was that Jon is the child of Ned and Lyanna. But speaking of contrasting juxtaposition, since Cersei is suppossed to have a miscarriage, another woman may be getting pregnant during these last, very dramatic moments.
  9. Mea culpa, but I think I have a point anyway. If I am right, that is.
  10. Well, I think that GRRM chose to include this interesting piece of trivia for a reason. Anyway, theSibling incest is different from avuncular incest. In many European countries to this day laws forbid marriage only between (grand)parents and (grand)children and full and half siblings. Since what isn't forbidden is allowed, it means that nephew/aunt and uncle/niece are fair game. Granted, nobody does it nowdays, but historically it happened. It's not comparable to sibling incest that has been always unthinkable.
  11. I just find it amusing that people who have claimed that GRRM and/or D&D would never ever put these two characters together now claim that even if it happens of course they won't be the endgame! Never, ever. Like, if J/D comes to pass you've been terribly wrong about them before, so I wouldn't immediately start making predictions about the future development of their relationship if I were you, LOL.
  12. Yup. A baby. Hopefully a Luke and a Leia both.
  13. That makes you very unbiased, I'm sure. In the show we know for sure there's no afterlife. There's no Drogo and Rhaego waiting for Dany. That was the Undying's way of trying to bedazzle Dany, so she doesn't defend herself when they steal her life energy, much like in the books. Their spell was broken when heard her living dragon children call, and she turned her back on her dear dead ones. If it's a foreshadowing of anything, it makes more sense that she's on the brink of death, but the memory of what she has to live for gives her the strength to go on. FYI, Stark men have married their nieces before. If they could marry their brother's daughters, I don't see any reason why another could not be in a relationship with his father's sister.
  14. I see you're not going to give up hope even if it happens, LOL.
  15. Well, you said that if it happens in the show, you hope it's made up by D&D. That would be denial to me. If it happens on the show, it happens in the books as well. Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow are arguably the two most important characters in this entire story. A possible romantic relationship between them is not a meaningless detail that can be easily dismissed. I can tell you 99,9% that Jorah and Dany aren't going to end up in a romantic relationship. I am rarely so sure of anything. That's simply not GRRM's style, not at all*, and the show despite its divergences is still adapting the skeleton of the book plot, so, no, not gonna happen. * If you don't believe me, check out Dying of the Light, The Meathouse Man, The Tower of Ashes, Starlady, etc. I cannot think of a single example where the lady changed her mind in the end. This could be the first time, sure, but given that ASoIaF seems to be the remix of pretty much all GRRM has written before, I find it exceedingly unlikely.