Ygrain

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About Ygrain

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    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

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    Female
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    Czech Republic
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    Fantasy, history, Tolkien, Dragon Age, Mass Efect, fanfic
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  1. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Oh, come on, this one was lame. Do you really expect Ned to babble every single detail of the encounter? Once more, the crucial part is that the KG know what transpired and that Viserys had no KG with him, and there is zero reason for Ned (or HR etc) to spread this particular detail. And without it, the Westerosi have no reason to obsess with why the KG were at ToJ like we do. I played next to anything - a flirtatious bard, a cold-blooded assassin, a cheerful alchemist with a penchant for cooking - but one that particularly stands out in this context is a certain knight and a man of honour, with a particular feature which in the Rolemaster system is called "Faithful Vassal". As you might guess, it means that you are sworn to an unworthy liege, yet must follow every order. Yeah, it was one of many reasons I've come to thorouhly detest the movies, and I don't even mention The Hobbit ;-) Aragorn is mostly behaving with dignity without excessive epithets, but he does have a couple of "Dany" moments, e.g. when meeting √Čomer the first time and showering the poor guy with almost all of them
  2. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Heck, how can I say it more plainly?! It's meaningful because the KG know what happened. If they didn't, their presence wouldn't mean a thing. We as readers have access to information that the people of Westeros know nothing about, therefore we can come to conclusions they would never think about. Have you never played DnD, have you never had to distinguish between the knowledge of the player and the knowledge of the character? It's basically the same thing, what we know =/= what the characters know.
  3. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    This is perhaps the single thing I can agree on with LV, that the self-doubt is solely Jackson's insert. The book Aragorn doesn't doubt himself or his claim but as a highly determined and responsible person, he is honing his skills and waiting for the right time. He does never boast of his heritage until that time has come, and for all his victories as Thorongil, he never used them as a stepping stone to power through which he could depose Denethor. He never put his personal gain (the kingship over Gondor and restored Arnor, which Elrond made a condition for allowing him to marry Arwen) above the main goal, the defeat of Sauron. - Makes one think, if Jon was offered IT or continue to fight the Others, we know what he would choose, right? :-) And you have to bear in mind that the KG knowing is not common knowledge. All the reports of the fight come from Ned, the oh-so-honourable-lord-Stark-who-never-lies, does he? The general knowledge is that the KG were left behind by Rhaegar to guard his secret love nest or something like that, and that after the war was won, Ned Stark fought them and recovered his sister's body. News spread slowly even with ravens, news spread unreliably. If Ned Stark said they hadn't known a thing prior his arrival, why should anyone doubt his word? It's entirely plausible. Also, men of honour like those wouldn't be away from the king if they knew, right? So they can't have known. Polygamy is three hundred years old history, after all, just like KitN. There were more important things to consider at that time than reviving old history. Furthermore, did Ned even say that the showdown took place where he recovered Lyanna? To my best knowledge, the show gets closest by stating If he claimed that he encountered the KG on the road, it's again a perfectly plausible explanation - they received the news with some delay, and set out to reach Viserys as they should. Nothing that should anyone give a pause. Yeah, Hightower is problematic. I'm sure he would have wanted to go back to KL, so something must have prevented him. IMHO, if Aerys didn't give him a direct order to come back, Rhaegar's order to stay would have been enough because, as GRRM tells us, KG don't get to choose which orders they want to follow. If there were clashing orders, though, Rhaegar would have an upper hand - Aerys needed him more than he needed Hightower, and Hightower didn't possess any means to make Rhaegar go back if he was unwilling. So, if Rhaegar made Hightower's stay the condition for his own return to KL, poor Gerry would have no choice but to grit his teeth and stay.
  4. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    The right thing for the KG is to protect the king and die for him if need be, we are told this repeatedly. Holding one's ground and not fleeing is certainly honourable and admirable but it has nothing to do with fulfilling one's role as Kingsguard; or rather, it is not enough to qualify as an examplary KG if it has nothing to do with the primary duty. If Jon is a bastard, the succession is clear: Viserys is king. If Jon is legitimate and the KG don't know about Aerys' choice, the succession is clear: Jon is king If Jon is legitimate and the KG are aware of the change in succession, things get muddled, but right or wrong, the KG apparently made up their mind about their duty and the decision must have had at least some validation in Ned's eyes. Honestly, does this even matter when they learned what? It is the mindset with which they started the fight that, IMHO, matters, and Ned's thoughts of them in the retrospect. Somehow, in those murky waters, they navigated with as much honour as they could keep, yet for all their honour, they somehow concluded that it was not Viserys with whom their duty lay. But Hightower was definitely not Rhaegar's man, he is never mentioned as being his friend and has been shown several times as being a stickler for the rules and following Aerys blindly, I don't see him doing such a thing as abandoning duty for friendship. Plus, if those three men put friendship above duty, they don't deserve the praise as exemplary Kingsguard - good men and true for sure, but not good and true Kingsguard. There is no getting out of it - either they are protecting the king, or they are not. There is no-one else to carry out the duty and they know it. If Viserys is king, they are in dereliction of their duty. If Jon is king, they are carrying out their duty, and they are the best KG they can be, dying for their king fighting a lost battle despite being offered a possibility of fleeing.
  5. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Oh, and one more thing: why exactly should Rhaegar and Lyanna, after disregarding practically every single social norm that forbade them to be together, respect the non-polygamy norm?
  6. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Then why did GRRM write the Kingsguard at all? Why establish a sworn order whose main purpose in life is to protect the king, why write a scene where they emphasize so much their status? Would it make you feel better if the KG presence was called a strong hint instead of proof? Well, if one wants to undermine the secret prince trope, he needs to make him secret and a prince ;-) And then, perhaps, the legitimacy won't matter at all because Jon will become a king in his own right. Or perhaps, some usurper will sit the throne and the rightful heir never will. Who's to know? This final purpose remains yet to be seen. But from what has been written, it is apparent that some purpose is being followed. Not just Lyanna, Rhaegar himself, as well. Who has already been said to be honourable, and honourable men don't dishonour the women they love by impregnating them with bastards. Wedding before bedding, or at least ASAP ex post, that's what honourable men do. If Rhaegar wasn't married already, people wouldn't hesitate for an instant that he and Lyanna married secretly. Married men don't have this option, but, miraculously, Rhaegar happened to be one out of two men in all of Westeros whose family precedent allowed for it, and driven by a prophecy that would require him to look for loopholes to conceive his third dragon head. Again, not sure what GRRM's ultimate purpose will be, but can we at least agree that this is one hell of a coincidence? Now that's merely your opinion with no textual basis. On the contrary, Barristan Selmy (and Dany as well) believes that he should have gone to Viserys and that he failed his duty when he didn't. By your logic, Lord Manderly shouldn't bother with recovering Rickon because the Starks are goners? Principled men don't abandon their liege because he has lost a war and his seat of power, they attempt to reinstate him, or his heir. Which is exactly what the KG should have done. Except that we see that the death of the king doesn't relieve the KG of anything. The moment Robert died, Barristan said that his place was with the king - Joffrey, and we never hear of the KG renewing their vows to the successor. The moment Viserys became Aerys' only known heir, the KG loyalty should have been transferred to him, just like Ned's bannermen's loyalty was transferred to Robb. That's how the Westerosi society works.
  7. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Their knowledge would really depend on how broadly the change in succession was broadcast across Westeros - unlike the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys, for which there would have been tens to hundreds of witnesses and the gravity of the news would make them spread like wildfire, Viserys jumping the queue was a relatively minor issue which soon became a moot point, anyway. I think that in the case sibling versus son succession, even the KG might be inclined to perceive the king's action as not entirely justified and Ned might be inclined to understand such a choice, given his own strict view of the succession rules. BTW, have we ever discussed the possibility that Aerys intentionally kept his choice of heir secret, basically making little Aegon a target instead of Viserys?
  8. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Well, that's kinda your problem if you let your emotions cloud your judgement. And as for the "only" element: fine, let's presume that the KG are absolutely in the dark about the events of the last couple of weeks or months. Then how do they know why Ned looked for them at the Trident and that the usurper was present? Why do they believe Ned when he informs them that their sworn brother has done the unimaginable and became a kingslayer? Why don't they wonder what Selmy, Martell and Darry were doing while Aerys was being slaughtered and why Viserys has no KG with him, why don't they ever enquire about the queen and Rhaegar's children? Their responses are completely out of place for people who hear about these events - and what grave, devastating news they are! - for the first time, those are responses of people who know the context of Ned's statements. If the dream relays the events as they happened, i.e. the convo and the fight taking place immediately upon Ned's arrival, then they had known beforehands; if Ned himself brought the news, then the dream's set up for the fight is unrealistic and the circumstances prior the fight were vastly different. Either way, the gist of the dream informs us that they knew what they were doing, and why, when they chose to fight Ned, and what Ned knows about their motives makes him keep them in highest regard. They may have been mistaken or misinformed, but as far as Ned knows, they must have kept their vows and done what would have been the right thing for the KG to do.
  9. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    That's actually reading comprehension. The way the KG respond to Ned makes sense only if they know the facts already, regardless when they learned; at the time they choose to fight, they know already. Well, Ned never mentions possessing this particular bit of knowledge, so if he is anything to go by, the KG may not have known, either. Or, just like Barry did, they picked the king at hand, but a king nonetheless.
  10. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Out of masochism, my friend... There were three of them. It was perfectly within their capacity to protect Lyanna and Jon and fulfill their KG vows by sending one of them to DS. They didn't, and they didn't even acknowledge that this is what they should be doing. The king is dead, long live the king. Viserys lived and they should have gone to him. Vows don't bother with technicalities like crowning or power and the like, the moment Viserys is the first in the succession line, he is king, just like Joffrey is after Robert's death. Look at the context at which they said that KG doesn't flee: Willem Darry fleeing with Vis and Rhaella to DS, while the KING remained in KL. That's what they cannot flee from, their duty to be with the king. If you swear to protect someone, you have no right to put your selfish wishes for honourable death above your duty. The vows don't include a caveat "not valid when the realm falls, war is lost etc.". Their swore to protect the king or die trying. At the time of the ToJ showdown, they are definitely not protecting king Viserys. Well, yes, at the time when Rhaegar departed from ToJ, their reason to stay was apparently different. Like, following Rhaegar's order, as GRRM said they would if they liked it or not. But after the Sack and death or betrayal of all the other KG, they are the only ones who can fulfill their primary duty to protect the king, and Rhaegar's order is no longer a valid excuse for them not to be with the king. If there is no king at ToJ, they are all in dereliction of that primary duty and have no right to go proudly about being Kingsguard. Well, if their plan was to keep Jon secret until they can move to another safe location, it worked - no-one found them except Ned to whom the information was somehow leaked.
  11. Arthur Dayne

    Lol, but twincest started way before Jaime even knew Arthur...
  12. Arthur Dayne

    Er... you do realize that you are proposing daycest, right?
  13. It's not Alys Karstark, either

    I think this part was merely Mel's deduction - there wouldn't be exactly an abundance of young females relying on getting help from Jon, and as the only girl somehow related to Jon and having one hell of a reason to run and seek help was poor fArya, Mel concluded that it must be her.
  14. Why the ToJ showdown ever happened?

    I'm sure those people have some clever explanation why Ned bothers thinking about Rhaegar not frequenting brothels instead of Arthur, or why Rhaegar was the guy who gave Lyanna the crown of blue roses that she is constantly depicted with, instead of Arthur. And above all, why Ned thinks Arthur the shiniest example of KG evarr, when the guy broke his vows, deflowered a maiden and fathered a bastard on her, and showed no inclination to protect his king Viserys, not to mention giving his life for the king as he was supposed to.
  15. It's not Alys Karstark, either

    Mel thinks that she could sense clearly that the girl was going to ask Jon for help.