Ygrain

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About Ygrain

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    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

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    Fantasy, history, Tolkien, Dragon Age, Mass Efect, fanfic
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  1. Description of the mechanism of the strangler, from Cressen prologue: Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man’s throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. Description of Joffrey's death: Joffrey began to claw at his throat, his nails tearing bloody gouges in the flesh. Beneath the skin, the muscles stood out hard as stone. Joffrey is first standing, then on his knees, clawing at his throat, looking at Tyrion, pointing his hand - no other part of body is described as affect by the poison. Also: “Pycelle,” Tyrion called out, risking his father’s wrath, “could any of these poisons choke off a man’s breath?” “No. For that, you must turn to a rarer poison. When I was a boy at the Citadel, my teachers named it simply the strangler.” The process was slow and difficult, the necessaries costly and hard to acquire. That much why the strangler is apparently not a part of everyone's first poison kit.
  2. He doesn't mention a rape - and though that would count as a dishonour, too, Barristan's feelings about it would be way more different than sad. The passage goes: She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that. Barristan never told Ashara about his feelings for her, and he wonders what would have happened if he had - i.e., the crowning here equals an expression of his romantic interest. Now, why do people express their love for someone? They hope for reciprocation, and if Ashara had reciprocated his feelings, or at least felt complimented enough to disregard other men for a while, she wouldn't have hooked up with the man who dishonoured her and started the chain of events that led to her suicide. IMHO, you give Dareon's song too much credit - if the singers would have people believe that Robert's Rebellion was a fight between Robert and Rhaegar over Lyanna, then how does Ashara fit all of a sudden? And even if the song was about Ashara, what if there was unrequited love? Or what if the song was actually inspired by an echo of Bael the Bard legend, with Bael as a prince who fell in battle? Or what if it is just a concoction of various romantic motives with zero historical background? There is so little information about the content of the song.
  3. I must admit I am rather baffled. You consider a dishonour that Ashara was passed in the crowning, but not that she had a child out of wedlock? Compare here (TWOW spoiler)
  4. While you are right that the conversation was about Sansa herself, too, you are pretty much exaggerating the visible signs of the beating. I don't recall a mention of a back eye, can you provide a quote? A split lip is there, and bleading ear, and she asks for powder to mask a bruise as well as wears long sleeves to cover them, but besides the stripping incident, none of the abuse takes place publically, so it is the word of Sansa Stark that eventually confirms the rumours and seals Joffrey's fate. Don't put words in my mouth. In Highgarden it was that Olenna heard the rumours; what arrangements, when and through whom is unknown. If the hairnet was insignificant, GRRM wouldn telegraph the poisoning by writing a vision of a maiden with purple serpents in her hair - and BTW, even if you were right about Tyrion as the victim and the pie, you'd still have to explain the purpose of the vision. See above - that depends on the timing and details of the arrangements. Meaning, at the point when she offers Willas, she may not know, or intend, Sansa to be a potential scapegoat, and even if she does, it's just a contingency plan, in case something went wrong, and in that case it is much better to lose a future daughter-in-law than you own life. Please, learn some biology. Of course other systems are inolved, or do you claim that you have raw muscles in your throat? The poison gets in contact with the mucosae and muscles constrict because of a signal in neural pathways. I have no idea what you are trying to say here because it doesn't make any sense. And what would you have GRRM write, the exact timing? Ever heard about skipping meaningless events in writing? SHould he be recording every breath and every fidget, too? It means absolutely nothing. It is merely a flow of the narrative without focusing on every single second, which you are somehow unable to grasp, or admit. Don't put words in my mouth again. On both occasion, with Sansa and the wedding, it is clear that alcohol affect his restraint, poor as it is even when sober. More BS. GRRM compares killing Joffrey to killing Hitler before he could commit his atrocities, not to killing an innocent by accident. Sheesh, I didn't know GRRM was making interviews all day long. If you want to discredit the author's own words, you need to try harder. Funny, we are told just that. Repeatedly. Plus we have the description of the muscles of Joffrey's throat. I'll find you the quotes when I get back home. No comment. You should educate yourself about those RL sciences in the first place; it might occur to you why the time when a substance starts affecting you is always stated as a range instead of a single precise number. Yeah, and he is totally indifferent when someone he dislikes gets beheaded and the like. Try the other leg. And he would also be adult in three years, and much more difficult to control, as he was going all Aerys. Tommen is going to be a minor much longer, and who knows what might happen during all those years, with such a nice and gullible boy. Which, by the way, is stated in the books quite plainly. Oh, sure that he is a threat. And he gets removed in a way that doesn't connect him to LF in any possible way. A masterful move.
  5. I edited the OP for clarification. BTW, where was Sandor while Joffrey was entertaining Sansa on their trip? It seems that if Joffrey wants to be alone, he knows how to arrange it.
  6. Brandon did seem to see it that way, though I believe being unhorsed by Rhaegar might have had something to do with that, too.
  7. I see. Alright then. But, I never claimed they didn't know anything, just that their knowledge is not as thorough as it should (and especially as it should be for ones riding such a high horse). It has been long argued around here the Ned' execution was prompted by LF's whispers because Joffrey's arrogance and stupidity make him easy to manipulate by people who know his way around him (funny how Sansa does it to save Dontos). I just gave more thought to the sexual element here because I'm not sure if whispering the right thing in one's ear would be described as "hidden influence" (does Sansa have hidden influence, as well?), to me it's more like willingness to listen to such whispers, so I thought about the ways that LF might ingratiate himself with Joffrey, and when I came across Tyrion's mention about arranging Joff a visit to Chataya's, it just clicked in my mind that Chataya's is not the only brothel of significance in KL. I just hope that this connection is not something I heard on Radio Westeros in their Joffrey or LF episode, forgot all about it and then "rediscovered" it, that would be awkward. It's really hard to come by anything new these days.
  8. And none of your denial changes the fact that you were dead wrong and so is the channel, it is a blue rose, not just any flower. And it comes right from the source material, no combing through tons of GRRM quotes required. As for sweetness, while I'm quite sure that Jon is never going to emanate sweet scent (not sure if I even want to know how often the NW members get to bathe), I'm also dead sure it was not meant literally. For example, Jon shining among his fellow recruits, making their lives better, defending the Wall, becoming LC... a rose can be identified by its smell, and Jon's qualities make him stand out among the others. Just like his father did.
  9. “A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?” Well-researched indeed. I hope that you can understand that if in the direct description of the HotU vision we get "blue flower" but when Jorah refers to it, he says "blue rose", it means that Dany recognised the flower as a rose.
  10. You need to work on your reading comprehension. The talk about the catspaw ensued here only because the original quote referred to it, I suggested that Joffrey's sexual initiation, if it happened, would have taken place only after Robert's death and probably only after Sansa's stripping, which I hope you know took place long after the catspaw incident. Perhaps LF stole Tyrion's idea. He certainly does. But you've left out the quote during Sansa's wedding, during the dance when he tells her that he can have her brought to his bedroom any time and paws her breast, and before the bedding when he starts shouting for Sansa to be stripped (again).
  11. That doesn't automatically equal to letting a lady drink first, especially if you are a king (and with exceptionally bad manners on top of that) Old lady gets up to get better view of her graddaughter, and she falls down. The granddaughter rushes to check if she's alright. Kof, kof. Except that Lady O is last seen as the pie with doves is being wheeled down the hall, and that's not seconds. I don't have the time to search the text but he is pretty much in his wineskin when he encounters Arya and Mycah, and during the wedding feast, he's not exactly sober, either. Now that's bullshit. Poisoning a terrible person only accidentally doesn't poise any moral dilemma concerning redemption, the-e-nd-justifies-the-means, none of the kind. Those are reserved for intentional killing. Ah. So the author who had been planning something for years doesn't know what he is saying. Great. Sigh. "Could" ain't good enough. The problem with RL substances causing constriction is that they do not work selectively, and if something will constrict the throat muscles to the point of asphyxation, other muscles will be cramping, as well. Yet, this is not the case with the strangler, it affects only and solely the throat. It is a fantasy poison. You guys are really funny. Of course LF wants power; does it somehow exclude an ability to hold a grudge and to exact revenge on those entitled nobles who "stole" what was his? BTW, why did Ned become Hand? Because Jon Arryn died. And who killed Jon Arryn, and at whose behest? So, let's recapitulate: - LF has Lysa murder Jon Arryn and frame the Lannisters for that - LF frames Tyrion for the attempt on Bran - LF insinuates that Robert knew about the attempt on Bran - LF delays Ned's departure from KL, which results in the fatal encounter with Jaime (which I suspect LF orchestrated, as well, but have no proof for that) - LF betrays Ned (and quite possibly whisper in Joff's ear which results in Ned's execution) Now, how do such actions correspond to his claim that Catelyn was the only woman he ever loved, when everything he did brought pain and destruction to her family? Those are not actions of a man in love, that's something very, very ugly on the inside.
  12. And Starks are not Free Folk. Why would he bother with what happens to their child, why would he hire someone and not do the deed himself, and where did he get the money and the Valyrian dagger?
  13. You think LF would use the Kettleblacks for the poisoning? And you're still confusing the persons' motivations. LF doesn't have one, except creating chaos. He doesn't need, or want, Joffrey dead, he's merely shaking the chessboard. And he does so by leading Olenna's hand from behind the scenes, just like he did with Mace wanting Loras in the KG. I'm not. I'm claiming that in Highgarden, LF used his agents to plant the rumours. I claim that there is no textual support for Olenna being knowledgeable about poisons or having means to acquire one. Except that I never claimed they necessarily planned the whole thing together, and you are also forgetting that little scene with Sansa who is needed to confirm all those terrible rumours. For one, if you think that the strangler hairnet is convoluted, take it to GRRM, he wrote the vision of a maiden with purple serpents in her hair. Second, I believe I have suggested somewhere above that Olenna may not have even known that LF was the one procuring the poison, just like Cersei never knew that the Kettleblacks were Tyrion's men, who in turn never knew that they were LF's. Then why is the strangler in the hairnet, for shits and giggles? You must be kidding me. 5 seconds and 15 seconds, for persons of totally different age, health, constitution (and poison dillution) - that's both fucking fast. You, who are so much into real world parallels, should be the first to acknowledge that the onset of symptoms is variable In fact, I think LF made sure Jaime learned where Ned had gone. Tyrion abducted + Jaime hothead + meeting Ned = problem. Because no-one in the streets could testify to the contrary, right? And to plant the rumours. Because he knows that other people will have that motive once he prompts them in the right direction, and he will have a leverage against them. Knowledge is power, right? Oh? And where would they talk without the risk of the little birds overhearing them, in the godswood? Or they will meet somewhere outside the castle? Wow, that would be totally unsuspicious.
  14. Not impossible, but I think that if Joffrey was "indoctrinated" to do something like that, there would have been some subtle hint - like Joffrey watching the Stark kids with some very weird gleam in his eye. Yet, all we get to see is that arrogant little shite It would certainly only come after Robert's death, perhaps after that very public stripping of Sansa showing Joffrey's developing sexual interest. However, getting someone out of the Red Keep under everyone's noses is not so problematic, we have seen LF do just that. - Or, being a brothel owner, he may have brought some girls in. As for the Hound... he needs to eat, sleep and defecate, so it was humanly impossible for him to be alongside Joffrey 24/7, and if he was... perhaps he was offered, you know, services for free? I disagree. Those sexual threats towards Sansa in ASOS are pretty creepy, and seem to be meant seriously. The kid was becoming interested in sex. You and me both :-( Oh, I do agree that LF's usual way is to whisper into Joff's ear. I just wondered if there may be even more to it. BTW, the thought of introducing Joff to some girl comes up twice - first in ACOK when Tyrion discusses it with Varys, and then is ASOS when he offers Tywin to take Joff on a trip round KL's brothels. Well.. when GRRM repeats something, I tend to think it's somehow important, but perhaps I'm just seeing grumkins.
  15. If they are among "best-researched" on youtube, then the rest of the videos must be really poor quality. I suffered through two of their videos, and the attitude they showed (everyone is stupid if the believe XY) certainly didn't compel me to want to talk to them, so, no, you're wrong in this respect, too. Finally, I don't need to try and make them look bad, they manage that solely on their own.