Ygrain

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  1. Well, it's not like we have seen abundance of those, and the one magic sword we keep hearing about was definitely not designed for doing stupid shit at tournaments.
  2. Reference guide The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark. The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory: Jon Snow's Parents And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary: Jon Snow's Parents A Wiki of Ice and Fire: Jon Snow Theories Radio Westeros podcast: A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose Kingmonkey's essay: R+L=J Frequently Asked Questions: How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand? Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity. Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes? Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair. Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark. If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him? Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar. Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be? Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son. How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf? He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves. Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother? Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother. There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely". Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn? We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side. Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter? In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers. Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard? He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate. Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal? Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell. George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is alsothis SSM predating the worldbook. On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage? If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir. Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though? The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order. "Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J. Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir? No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsightby maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer. Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here? Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking. Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it? Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's CrannogmanHowland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned. Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story? The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown. This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true? It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight. George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché. In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope. Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found? There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy. Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans? He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle. A thread for discussing strengths and weaknesses of the theory that Jon Snow's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. Previous editions: Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread
  3. Exactly. GRRM participated in the creation of the app. Besides, the app was released after "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna", so it's not like GRRM gave away something that people hadn't figured out by then.
  4. I'd say that treating scratches and bruises is a very practical skill which doesn't require much expertise, and one that a wild girl practicing sports that her father disapproves of might want to master, so that she doesn't have to go see the maester every time she or Benjen get themselves some.
  5. Do you think it really matters if you state your bias at the beginning or at the end of the OP? It's the approach you are taking. Beg your pardon, you know nothing about me. I defend the love story position because I that where I perceive the story going, ever since I read AGOT and noticed the discrepancy between the two version as well as the hints that didn't fit with the rape versions. I had no vested interested in the existence or absence of a love story between R+L then and do not have one now, other than relying on gathering the hints that GRRM has been dropping, in-book as well as outside. As I pointed out above, the love versions is receiving a steady flow of further details, the rape version is not. Hence, I defend the love story and I enjoy dissecting and arguing for and against, this theory as well as others. Not sure what illogical mistake you mean here - Brandon going to KL doesn't make sense whether he believed it was rape or a consensual love affair, because Rhaegar wasn't there in the first place. What I am pointing out is that we don't know Brandon's motivation, and that while his action, though rash, is compatible with the desire to avenge his sister's rape, it should be also taken into consideration that a consensual love affair might prompt exactly the same response, to avenge his sister's honour. Certainly. But why so close to HH? That's not on the way from Winterfell to Riverrun. Had she been staying at HH for some time? That would make some communication between her and Rhaegar way easier than frlom Winterfell, not to mention that there is a very convenient location near HH where no-one goes and with weirwoods for interesting scenes to be seen by Bran. Indeed. But that doesn't mean Rickard necessarily knew where Rhaegar would be hiding. For instance, with Aerys' paranoia, he might start suspecting the Starks of somehow scheming with Rhaegar. Rickard can then truthfully claim he doesn't know a thing about Rhaegar's whereabouts. And since this would be agreed on beforehands, by communication from DS, HH or some other place where Rhaegar had support, Rickard wouldn't have any information about ToJ. The distance are huge. Although GRRM doesn't bother himself with counting days and miles, he doesn't have people teleporting like the show does. No courier sent after Brandon was imprisoned would have made it in time. And nothing to gain if he didn't posses the information, which he was not bound to. Well... and do we know that no communication attempts were made by Rhaegar? And do we know that he or Lyanna didn't? Because mind you: no-one was fighting a war over Lyanna! - If you want a historical parallel, take a look at the abduction of Isabella of Angouleme by John Lackland. It was not the abduction itself, but when her family and her betrothed raised a complaint with the King of France, he claimed that John owed him fealty and ordered John to returned her. John refused, and then war ensued, to establish who had an upper hand. It was never about Isabella herself, who remained with John ever though he lost the war. That would require us to believe that the wild and wilful Lyanna would accept flowers from the guy who raped her, instead of throwing them into her chamber pot. - Unless she still loved him even though he raped her, which still leaves us with a love story. It really wasn't clear, because you seem to be operating with a rather abridged version of what it means to be a rapist. People rape for various reasons and when you say that someone isn't a rapist type, you are rejecting all of them in their entirety. Besides, why would Rhaegar need to rape her? He possessed all the means to make her fall in love with him and manipulate her to want to have his child. There is no need to make their love go sour by having Lyanna raped, because the love did go sour, anyway, by all the tragedy that followed. And outside the series? The app: Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips. Plus, the GRRM quote in my signature, which I keep there for reference sake, not fangirlism. But Ned himself refused to follow Robert's dishonourable order to have Dany assassinated. He doesn't believe in blind obedience of atrocities. And as I said above, I believe it, too, because in five books, I don't see a single element to the contrary. See above, the app quote.
  6. @Bael's Bastard, thank you! I've saved the quotes for future reference.
  7. Ah, thank you. Do you happen to have the full quote?
  8. @Ran, don't you recall, please, where GRRM stated that Rhaegar's last word was indeed "Lyanna"?
  9. The app: Benjen took the plea of the Black Brother to heart So, yeah, Benjen was definitely paying attention. Paying attention to the HH recruiter + not knowing Mance by sight = the recruiter was not Mance BTW, not knowing someone by sight means you never saw them and don't know what the person looks like. If it was a person you have seen but they have changed, Mance would say that he was sure Benjen wouldn't recognize him or something like that.
  10. True, but Ned's sadness (both in the dream and when he tells Bran about Arthur) indicates that he held the men in high esteem, he even names Arthur Dayne the finest knight (and definitely not just in the sense of being the bestest with sword). I doubt that he would think highly of them if they stood guard during Lyanna's rape - he refused to follow Robert's orders whne he thought them wrong, after all. Those are two different things here. For one, we don't even know what Brandon thought he was doing - was he trying to free a kidnapped sister, or avenge a stain on the family honour? Because for a brother worried sick, '"come out and die" is not a priority I would expect. Brandon nearly came to blows with Rhaegar over Lyanna's crowning, so wanting Rhaegar's blood - his life, actually - might indicate the lines of "you will die for dishonouring my sister!", rather than worries that Lyanna might be harmed by Rhaegar. - It is also funny that Cat says "when he heard about Lyanna", but never specifies what it was that Brandon heard. She says he acted rashly, and remembers how her father raged about Brandon's "gallant fool" act, which both tell us that Brandon was not supposed to do that. As for Rickard's correspondence: if - IF - there was any secret agreement between him and Rhaegar, he couldn't reach Rhaegar at ToJ. First, he would need a raven from ToJ, and since it was a long-abandoned structure, there couldn't be any functional rookery. Second, there is a problem with timing - we don't know how long Rhaegar took to reach ToJ (and if it even was his original destination), so he may have been still travelling, i.e. couldn't be reached. Also, the correspondence might have been only one-sided - Rhaegar did inform Rickard that he was making off with Lyanna, assured him that no harm would come to her and offered some nice terms and amends. Brandon either didn't know, or disagreed, and decided to take matters in his own hands. No. It's just one option. He could have known but disagreed and chose to disobey (wild wolf, used to having his way). He could have arrived at an incorrect conclusion. He could have acted on incorrect information, or on purposefully false information from someone who took advantage of a perfect opportunity to get House Targaryen in trouble - if he had to be restrained publically at HH, all it took was a misdirection that sent him to the place where his rashness would get him in serious trouble. Or any possible combination. Lol, really? Says the one who stated his bias about not wanting a love story right away? Just so you know, the version I like best is where Rhaegar acts like a guy who fell in love the first time in his life, head over heels, and fucked up big time. It happens all the time, unlike perfect princes. But we have so precious little information that other scenarios really shouldn't be ruled out just yet. The guy was supposed to be intelligent, could he really be so blinded by hormones that he stopped thinking entirely? Now, if the Starks knew that Lyanna left with Rhaegar of her own volition (what was she doing ten miles from HH, anyway?), they wouldn't think she was in danger, so no more further correspondence required, right? Indeed. But we really lack the timeline. That would require 1) Rickard knowing where Rhaegar was, and 2) Aerys willing to pardon Rickard for a treason he had just admitted. The fatal miscommunication, if such a thing happened, took place before the Rebellion, and Brandon's "treason" was a game changer, along with his and Rickard's execution. Those problems couldn't be solved by communication any longer. Yet another "only option". What about Robert? What if he refused this alliance? What would Ned do, side with his sister and Rhaegar against Robert? And do you really think that Ned would let Robert face the Targaryens on his own? And what would Ned's bannermen say if he told them they were backing out and had been fighting for nothing? A huge lot of very complex problems here which you tend to oversimplify. Er, not a bed full of roses. She was holding some in her hand, and not fresh ("dead and black"). Holding onto something on your deathbed usually works as a literary device to show attachment. Wait a sec - he wasn't a rapist type but he did rape her? What do you mean? His lady Lyanna. That does hint at something. And how does the HotU vision of Rhaegar whispering Lyanna's name point at duty? His duty and main concern would be the baby, not Lyanna. I believe GRRM establishes the conflict of love and duty in the primary sense of the word.
  11. Ah, wonderful. Why train at all when all you need is being able to ride and hold a lance. Have you ever tried to hit something with like a two-metre pole while riding at a gallop? You're talking nonsense. Plus, the bolded is incorrect - they were the champions of the first and second day, so they possessed some skill. I asked what narrative purpose you think there might be to giving Elia such a particular hobby. What exactly is there that you don't understand? Yes, you are. You know nothing. Yet another nonsense argument. Loras cheated exactly once, against a guy who "cheated" every single time due to his monstrous height and strength. Do you think that Loras was the cheating all the time, against every single person he defeated, and nobody noticed? What is not a good example, showing that you need some skill to be a good jouster? Don't be ridiculous.
  12. I might introduce you to a colleague of mine. She's a tiny wisp of a woman, and booms even when she's not even trying to speak aloud. Care to explain where and why Mance learned to joust? It's not like the NW or wildlings practice the sport. On the other hand, we know that Lyanna practiced with rings - why did GRRM give her such a hobby? And what is the narrative purpose of
  13. Perhaps it works like a dog whistle, i.e. ultrasound?
  14. Yeah, it seem like there is some secret spying agenda going. The post above sparkled some light: information. LF values information. Could the FM require information, or access to information, as a payment? - Gosh, I'd pay in gold to see that: a master schemer and liar questioned by guys who can tell that he is lying!
  15. 1) It might be a wee bit suspicious if a man in his prime and in perfect health died all of a sudden, so soon after the death of the previous Hand 2) always keep your hands clean. Meaning, LF would never do the job on his own, just like he had Lysa poison Jon Arryn or presumably move Joffrey into having Ned executed (or perhaps even made sure Jaime found out about the visit to the brothel). But as we can see, it was no sure thing that the Lannisters would kill him - he would have been a valuable hostage and his death caused a great deal of trouble that had best be avoided. The suicide Ned committed was only political. Ned is the man who stole Cat, Brandon's brother and the head of House Stark - that's your motive for LF to want him dead more than anything else. Does it require hiring a FM? I don't know. Given the way LF operates, I think it plausible that it might.
  16. Yep, that's what I was proposing, as well.
  17. I don't know, do common nobodies ever volunteer for the Wall? Whereas, with the background of a Black Cells prisoner, no-one would ever suspect a secret motive. - But, I do agree that it's somewhat convoluted. Because the Citadel is a big place, with lots of people who don't really know each other well. Castle Black, on the other hand, is a closely knit community where people know one another's quirks and habits, so it might be difficult to impersonate someone, and strangers come there very rarely. Plus, surviving on one's own in the wilderness doesn't seem to be a FM skill, they look pretty much like towners to me, so travelling on his own that far North might be problematic for him.
  18. But again: what if the price was not money? Do we know about anything that is dear to LF, except Cat?
  19. A good hypothesis, too, but it doesn't explain how he wound up in the Black Cells. That's the place for the worst criminals, so what crime did he commit (and how come he was so stupid as to get caught)? But let us follow your theory a wee bit: what if the guy ended up in the Black Cells because he knew Yoren would be recruiting there, and the Wall was the place where he wanted to reach, to mine some information from the library or Maester Aemon himself? Then, perhaps, he found something at HH that made the trip to the Wall no longer necessary, and so he went to Oldtown instead - for example, he learned that the book he knew, or thought to be at Castle Black, could also be found at Oldtown, which would be easier to infiltrate.
  20. IMHO, it may not have been money. What does LF cherish most, except his little finger? I was thinking along the lines of being able to pick the locks of the manacles.
  21. And here I thought he was his father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
  22. @Lost Melnibonean , I'm afraid the quote you provided doesn't explain if the FM take their time of their own volition, or if they follow the hirer's instructions in this. ETA: On a side note: I am wondering what would have happened if Arya didn't stop to free the prisoners. Were the chains the real deal, or would Jacquen be able to free himself on his own if necesary?
  23. And this complete stranger took up Howland's cause because...?
  24. Ah. So the great mystery of Benjen not recognising the man he never knew is solved
  25. That is a very valid point. Ned was doomed since the very beginning. But what if Joffrey didn't take the hint at executing Ned, what if someone came up with something to dissuade him? It was not a 100% certain that Ned would die that day, so what then? Arrange an assassination or an ambush along the way. And while you don't need an insider to do so, it is the safest way if the death is travelling along. Especially when Eddard's injury was not healing well (which I think would have killed him, anyway, and Pycelle might have had a hand in that just like with Jon Arryn). The problem is: was the FM really waiting in the Black Cells the whole time, ever since before Yoren was allowed to recruit there? Or was there, at some point, a real Lorathi who was disposed of so that the FM could impersonate him, once it was decided that Ned would be sent to the Wall? Or did Yoren recruit more than once? Say, he took Rorge and Biter, and when he came to colect them, the jailor offered him a new guy? I don't recall if the number of prisoners he recruited is mentioned anywhere. Is it possible to hire a FM and keep him waiting until an opportunity presents itself?