Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

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  1. What is Doran's Master Plan, and what were his previous plans?

    I am not too fixated on the idea of Doran's master plan or calling his plans as master plan. Doran is a schemer and portrayed as such by GRRM but not necessarily a successful one. I do think he has more planned that he has revealed in the few scenes he talked about his plans with sandsnakes or Arianne, and I think it will be interesting to talk about that. Or at least talking about the sandsnakes role in the capital, how he will handle Aegon, that sort of stuff. If you don't think so, fine. Basically, you can be in the category A. Doran has some plans but they are not necessarily great B. Have a more ambitious view of what Doran is planning. This thread isn't only about talking about B and those who think of Doran as a master planner. I just don't think the nothing is going on approach is correct here or interesting. If you don't think he has done anything in the past, what about now? Who is his friend in the court for example?
  2. What is Doran's Master Plan, and what were his previous plans?

    Doran says: “I am not blind, nor deaf. I know that you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better. Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes. Your father and I worked more closely than you know…but now he is gone. The question is, can I trust his daughters to serve me in his place?” Before that he says: "Dorne still has friends at court. Friends who tell us things we were not meant to know." which is where he talks about the attempt on Trystane. So he might have spies in the court. Next, he sends the sandsnakes to play various roles in Kingslanding. Like many characters his plans might fail or looked with detail might not appear that great, but I don't think it is fair to believe there is nothing going on, other than lucking on with Aegon. Doesn't mean he is a great planner of course, even if he has plans. We already know of some of his plans that include the sandsnakes, but it isn't necessary the case, that all he shared to them is the full extend of his plans. Even just the sandsnakes involvement still calls for speculation on the full extend of what he plans to do with them there. He sends Lady Nim to be his voice and ear in the small council and he says to Tyene to get close to the new High Septon and tells hem that if certain things come to pass, he will send message to each of them, with new instructions. Specifically he says: “If…if certain things should come to pass, I will send word to each of you. Things can change quickly in the game of thrones.” BTW Nyrhex, you have a tendency to look at events in the book from a more meta out of the world perspective disregarding GRRM's intentions. Which isn't necessarily wrong, GRRM might want us to get the message that say Stannis appointing Imry Florent was wrong but from your own understanding of things, it wasn't the case, but that shouldn't lead one to the conclusion that GRRM isn't pointing at some direction. In the case of the cyvasse fan Doran, is that he is one of the schemer and planner characters of the series.
  3. What was your "hook" into the series?

    Watching the first season of the show and learning that the books were better. Even now I think it is the best season of the show, episode nine in particular made me even more impressed about the asoiaf. Learning that the books were better also motivated me. I wanted to know what happens next, and there were several books already available. I of course started with the first. And before that, the amount of attention that the show got, made me watch it. Also, an additional reason that I wanted to read the books though not the major reason, was because I wanted to avoided being spoiled by book readers. Actually while reading some non spoiler content about the show some asshole posted a spoiler in the comment section. Not in this forum since I didn't even come here then, because this forum is more suited for book readers, especialy when it comes to spoilers. I am pretty sure that some of the theories that people wrote in the non spoiler forums were less theories and more coming from the books.Reading the books meant a lot less worries about book spoilers, and dealing with that. Not the major reason but a minor bonus. What hooked me in the books were the various interesting characters, it's worldbuilding and its mystery. One of the hooks in the first book is that there is this danger and conspiracy and Ned's family gets mixed in it. And I was very much engrossed in Ned's investigations in Kings Landing. Honorable Ned losing and getting beheaded especially made the world seem more dangerous and uncertain than most fictional worlds, and I wanted to know what happens next.
  4. Now, we caught a few glimpses of it with what he said about arranging Viserys and Arianne marriage. But it can't be all that, as apparently Doran and Oberyn worked together in secret for years to bring the end of house Lannister. Doran was the grass, where Oberyn hided in and Oberyn was the snake, the one who striked. as we know Oberyn joined a sellsword company in Essos and also knew a great deal about poisons. There is the plausible theory that Oberyn might have poisoned Tywin. We also know about Quentin. But beyond that, is there anything else we can speculate that might had been part of Doran's plans. Considering the grass and the snake analogy, perhaps it has to do with Oberyn and what he did in Essos. At this point I should mention Preston Jacobs Dornish Master Plan video. Unfortunately it gets more and more and more convoluted, and complicated. There is a lot of throw shit at the wall and see what sticks so a lot of that could be false, but the guy might have discovered some things or be on to something in some of his points.
  5. ...and the women of Dorne get some get back...SPOILER?? OF COURSE

    Compare the books: to what we just saw in the show. It's like the showrunners read the books and choose to do the direct opposite. Funny thing is that those quotes could be used to describe what just happened.
  6. 6x01: D & D cleaning up after themselves

    I don't think so. It appears to me that the Dornish sandsnakes + Elaria will get a lot of attention and time in this season. They won't necessarilly get the most attention but one of the main plots they seem to be building towards is Lannisters vs Dornish. Then if Danny ever gets to Westeros, Dorne might play a role. They do seem to like rushing into things by assassinating characters and character assassinating.
  7. ...and the women of Dorne get some get back...SPOILER?? OF COURSE

    I wonder if the season will focus on DumbDorne vs Cersei+Jaime, until Daenerys returns to Westeros and burns Dorne.
  8. What is D and D's endgame?

    I am pretty sure they are setting up Dorne to get burned by Daenery's dragons. Also Daenerys and at least one of her dragons save the day against the Others. I think they will keep some superficial similarities with the book ending, at least for Daenerys but rush, and change much when it comes to the journey to that destination. Dorne leadership being more irrational and murderous might also be part of that, making it easier to swallow when Dorne gets burnt.
  9. What did this episode spoil about AsoIaF/tWoW? [Spoilers]

    I already thought that Melisandre was very old and would look like that without her glamour so not that. I didn't necessarily expect Daenerys to go to Vaes Dothrak in the books, but the show changes a lot of things, I don't know what will happen.
  10. Anyone else think GRRM initially had a bigger role in mind for House Redwyne?

    I think the Tyrell bannermen will play an increasingly important role in the next books. Names like Tarly, Redwyne and Hightower. The point with the Reach is that some of the Tyrell bannermen are pretty powerful/rich themselves, Redwyne's included. As the Lannisters are a sinking ship, we will see where they will point their allegiance and which house is Aegon's friends from the Reach. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if the Tyrells lose their position as rulling house of the Reach.
  11. The meaning of Jon's "frozen fingers" Arya quote.

    Like everyone here is how I see the quote: You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be killing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.” The longer Arya hides, the worse it will be for her. She will be killing all through winter and end up found dead with the needle locked in her frozen fingers. Then there is Ned's quote: "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Both quotes in combination foreshadow either Arya's death, or a likely fate she manages to just escape by choosing to stop being a loner who hides but join the pack. If she doesn't manage to escape her lone assassin role, she will end up dead.
  12. Will the North ever accept Targaryen rule again?

    I am going to go with no. I simply don't see Aegon or Daenerys managing to rule the north. They will be busy with their own civil war, and the Others will eventually go south. I don't see either Aegon or Daenerys surviving the series or leaving a lasting dynasty. Westeros will be too chaotic, with too many problems and factions for anyone to rule all of it. Now, I think that Jon might become king of the north but I wouldn't classify that as Targaryens ruling the north again. Plus, I don't see him procreating and creating a natural heir either. At the end of the series there might be no more Targaryens.
  13. Stannis's role in the death of King Robert Baratheon

    There were many players with their own different ambitions after Robert's death. There wasn't really a way to avoid war, nor would the relevant players accept a grand council. Relevant players would be Renly and the Tyrells, Stannis, Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, Ned, Littlefinger, Varys, hell at that point even Janos Slynt had some influence. Also the Ironborn were opportunistic and could take advantage of the situation.
  14. Who was the bigger failure? Tytos or Tywin?

    The talk of Cersei being at fault and not Tywin, doesn't exonerate Tywin, because it is he who made her queen. And really tried to get her queen when the Targaryens ruled. And as for Cersei's behavior, Tywin's own actions and role as a father isn't blameless. Of course he has other failures than that, such as how he treated Tyrion, his blindness to the twins actions or how he raised the hatred of the other houses in Westeros towards the Lannisters. Indeed Tywin and the Lannisters found themselves lucky in the war of the five kings, many eventualities could have gone differently, such as Tyrion dying in battle before helping in the capital or if Stannis did not kill Renly. The relationship of the twins and making Cersei queen were fatal mistakes for the Lannisters, and not merely reflecting bad on Tywin as a father. Of course the Lannisters managed to survive long enough for Tywin's relationship of Tyrion to end up fatal. So I see Tywin as a failure in general as his machiavelian goals are undermined by his own family. However I know too little about Tytos to compare things to him. What would Tytos be willing to compromise with? What would be the result of Tytos actions without Tywin interfering? It might had ended disastrously or it might had ended badly but with the Lannisters remaining but with reduced influence. Not sure how to judge Tytos, but I am not sure that the point is that Tywin is necessarily worse. Just that his way is also a failure. But as someone who does care about how good a person you are and how you treat your children, even if I consider Tywin and Tytos ways equally a failure of being a lord, I am going to consider Tywin a bigger failure because he also fails as a human being and a father.
  15. Your Random ASOIAF/TWOIAF/D&E Opinions, Confessions and Dirty Secrets, IX

    I sometimes wonder if at the start of the series you had most relevant players in one spot, and a nuke dropped on their heads, if that would had been necessarily that much worse than all the other shit that will happen to Westeros. I mean, civil war, then more civil war, then probably dragons and again civil war with dragons and of course there are the white walkers and their zombies, also greyscale epidemic and Cersei blowing up the capital.