bent branch

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  1. Melissandre spoilers included

    In the quote I provided where Melisandre is talking to Davos, it is clear that Melisandre realizes there is an existential threat to the world. This is before Aemon's letter. Melisandre may not be aware of where the threat is coming from, but she knows it's coming. The fact that you find Benerro's slave war equal to Melisandre's Armageddon says far more about you than Melisandre's fanaticism. Yes, the tone and tenor of Benerro and Melisandre's teaching is different, but Melisandre has a much more dire message than Benerro. Aemon confirms that Melisandre is essentially correct in her interpretation of the prophecies (not the details, but bigger picture). If Benerro has this information available to him, why is he preaching an earthly war rather than Armageddon? You can go on thinking that Benerro and Melisandre are using the same playbook, but that is not supported by the text.
  2. Avoiding potential book spoilers (and failing)

    I think you may not have as much to worry about as you think. My daughter was reading ADWD as season 5 aired. Sometime after season 5 ended, my daughter called me and said she had finished ADWD. "Yeah, what did you think?" I asked her. She responded, "Jon was stabbed!" "Well, yes." I said. "You did just watch season 5." "Yeah, but they changed so much I thought that was just another of theirchanges!" So the moral of this little story is, even if you watch the show, you most likely won't be spoiled for the books.
  3. Mad King Aerys II Wasn't Crazy....

    Funny, I read that part exactly opposite. I know it was Rickard Stark that approached Aerys not the other way around because Eddard mentions something about his father's hopes for the Wall, etc. New Topic: I am convinced that Aerys was not mad until after Duskendale. The rumors before that were merely political propaganda being spread by the maesters.
  4. Melissandre spoilers included

    I have been thinking about how to respond. The difference in the teachings between Benerro and Melisandre are as wide as the differences between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, maybe even as wide as the differences between Christianity and Islam. And there is lots of evidence that these differences evolved from what Melisandre learnedin Asshai. The question is, do readers know it when they read it? While the signs of the prophesized one are the same between Melisandre and Benerro (we really don't get very much from Moqorro), everything else is different. Really. Here is what Benerro thinks is at stake (ADWD - Chapter 22): Now here is what Melisandre thinks is at stake (AFFC - Chapter 78): And here is who Benerro thinks is theenemythat AA/PTWP has come to fight (ADWD - Chapter 27): And now who Melisandre thinks is AA/PTWP's opponent (ASOS - Chapter 25): Beyond the signs surrounding the coming of AA/PTWP, the message of these two people have practically nothing to do with each other. Benerro is talking about a hero that will free the slaves and bring a more just world. Melisandre is talking about Armageddon. Seriously, if readers can't see that these are two different messages, then they might simply think that Melisandre andBenerro (Moqorro is just following Benerro's orders)have just chosen different people. However, taken in total it is obvious that Melisandre has a whole lot more understanding of what is going on than Benerro. There are really only one of three ways to explain the differences between the beliefs of these two people. 1) Melisandre learned of the true threat through her fires. 2) Melisandre learned of the true threat through ancient texts in Asshai. 3) Melisandre learned of the true threat through ancient texts in Asshai and her fires. Personally, I pick number three.
  5. Melissandre spoilers included

    Yes, before is a significant word. It indicates a dividing line. Melisandre could have chosen any dividing line in her life. She could have said before she became a slave or before she became a red priest or really anything. In real life people might choose dividing lines lines like: before I married or before I graduated. In Mel's life that major event dividing her life into before and after appears to be Asshai. I hope this all makes sense.
  6. Melissandre spoilers included

    Here are some random observations that may or may not be of use in thinking of Melisandre: 1) Although the priests of R'hllor are actually slaves of the temples (as far as I know there are no exceptions), they have an extreme amount of freedom. In fact, I suggest it is their status as slaves that gives them such freedom. If they were not slaves they could be captured as slaves and sold. Already being property of the temple makes them able to move freely without fear of being taken as a slave. 2) This quote indicates that what happened to Mel in Asshai is what shapes who she is now: To me, this indicates that Melisandre divides her life into before and after Asshai. This in turn indicates to me that whatever happened in Asshai left Mel a changed woman with different goals in life. 3) The Red Religion is very loosely organized. The evidence of this is that both Thoros and Mel go "missing" and no one in particular notices. Both Ezzelyno and Thoros live pretty debauched lives and no one ever reprimands or even particularly notices. 4) I've said this one before, but I'll repeat. There is no indication that red priests "earn" their status.Thoros stated that he didn't want to be a priest, but they made him one anyway. This indicates that the red priests are chosen for a characteristic they all share rather than any particular effort on their part. This is why no one really cares how badly Thoros andEzzelyno behaves.
  7. Melissandre spoilers included

    I pretty much agree. I'm mostly just putting my vote in for the scrolls in Asshai to be non-R'hllorian. I think what Mel found in Asshai is what set her off on her unique path.
  8. Melissandre spoilers included

    First, let me apologize. Only the first paragraph after your quote was in response to you. The rest was a more general rant. I can see where I didn't make that clear and I apologize. 1) What I was responding to was where you pointed out that both Mel and Quaithe are shadow binders while Quaithe doesn't appear to be a follower of the same religion. And you're still correct. 2) I didn't make the claim she came from Asshai. I have no idea where she came from. All I know is that she claims to have studied in Asshai. Indeed, Davos noted that at the whole flaming sword ceremony that she did everything in High Valyrian, Asshai and the Common Tongue. The quote you provided is proof that she was somewhere before she went to Asshai. I had to go read more of the text around the quote and what Mel is saying here is that what she learned long before Asshai is that she had to present herself as confident and powerful in order to get people to believe her. It doesn't really show what actual magic she did or did not learn in Asshai. 3) You are right. 4) Melisandre is a potential source for the entire prophecy. I hope someone reveals it. I will say that Melisandre appears to be making the claim that she got the information on the prophecy from Asshai:
  9. Melissandre spoilers included

    Look, I'm not questioning what D&D said. I've seen that for myself. What I was responding to was your statement: Then I said: I don't know why you interpreted this exchange as doubting D&D made the statements they did, but hopefully this clears things up. Again, I know what those involved with the show are saying. We are in the book forums and in the books Melisandre implies that she learned shadow binding and read ancient texts in Asshai. There is nothing in the books where Melisandre implies she got any of her knowledge from Valyria or that she has ever been there. What I was agreeing with you about is that shadow binding does not appear to be a standard practice for red priests. I guess we can say Melisandre is showing initiative as far as the shadow binding. Returning to the main topic. Can we use the word of D&D to tell us anything about what we can expect in the books? I say only if what they say has been foreshadowed in the books. Shireen burning was predicted by the fandom before it appeared in the show. D&D said GRRM told them about it and they chose to use it. This means they "spoiled" that Shireen burns. The how and why is still open as we know it can't be exactly how it is in the show. D&D have said that GRRM has told them that Melisandre is several centuries old. Has Melisandre been foreshadowed to be much older than she appears in the books? Yes, she has. In fact, this reveal is not that surprising to those that have read the books because we have been expecting it. Does this mean that Melisandre is 400 years old and is the last survivor of the Doom of Valyria. I doubt it. I will first point out that this is not me denying that D&D said Melisandre is several centuries old. This is me saying that Melisandre being the last survivor of Valyria is NOT foreshadowed in the books. If you think differently you need to go find that proof yourself. I can't find proof of something I say doesn't exist. Finally, if you want to use statements by D&D as evidence of something in the books, you need to also find the evidence in the books themselves. If all you are going to do is keep repeating that D&D said such and such, then you need to be in the show section. D&D saying something should not be an open back door to discussing the show in the books forum.
  10. Melissandre spoilers included

    There is no reason to believe that GRRM would want to correct them. If they are wrong it will be revealed when TWOW or ADOS comes out. If GRRM confirms what they say, then he has doubled down on the spoiling of his own books. So, I think GRRM saying nothing one way or the other is to be expected. You're correct. Shadow binding is completely separate from the whole red priest gig. Melisandre may have decided to learn shadow binding after she read the prophecies that scared her so badly.
  11. I don't see why they wouldn't believe Freyna when she tells themabout the scene where Stannis let them through the wall and that some guy SHE believes is Mance recruited her to "rescue" Arya. Especially when they are flaying her at the time. I think it is why the letter writer asked for Val and Mance's son, so they would have them as a hostage against Mance. There is no reason to ask for them if they already have Mance. But I have argued this before and only time will tell what is really going on. I hope that time is soon.
  12. This is an interesting point. Old Nan and the Wildlings say the Others and wights are drawn toward warmth, toward life. So far in the story, everyone who has been resurrected has been more of a reanimated corpse rather than actually alive. If Jon is indeed dead and then resurrected, he will be uniquely well suited to traveling in the Land of Always Winter, since he won't actually be living.
  13. I think it is obvious what happened to Mance. I think the only personin Mance's party that was taken prisoner was poor Frenya, who is now probably flayed and dead. Frenya, Holly, Jeyne and Theon were to go over the south wall. The reason they are going over the south wall is because it as far away from the crypts as it could be. We know how this more or less played out because Theon was a witness. Squirrel was left in Jeyne's room. She was supposed to climb out the window and pass over the bridge to bring her out in the Godswood. Interestingly, this is sort of the path that Bran took when he went to climb the broken tower, only in reverse. This path would bring her close to the crypts. Rowan, Myrtle and Willow broke off from Frenya, Holly, Jeyne and Theon to go rejoin Mance (Able). While the escape was drawing attention to the southern end of Winterfell, Mance, Rowan, Myrtle, and Willow headed to the crypts where they were rejoined by Squirrel. All of these people headed into the crypts. I don't know if Mance had a way out or if they are still hiding there, but I'm 99% certain that is where they went. The reason I'm certain is because of Mance taking the name Able. Yes, Mance took it because he was entering Winterfell disguised as a bard, but we are also supposed to realize that it is a clue as to where Mance went.
  14. GRRM won't make a reanimated corpse king. Again, you're misunderstanding what I said. Victarion has not been cast and won't appear in the show. However, that doesn't mean his storyline won't be in the show. From the what we see of Asha in some of the publicity stuff and Dany' ships being burned in the first episode, it looks like Asha will be fulfilling at least part of Victarion's storyline (taking ships to Dany).
  15. Fine. Jon will never be king then. I didn't say Victarion will be in Season 6. I said his storyline will be and all indications are it will be.