bent branch

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  1. Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration

    Actually, what I am saying is that the fandom in general is mistaking dragon dreams with dreams about dragons. Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to this, but I have been putting together some evidence. To start I looked through all the literature to find where the term "dragon dream" is used. This term is used only once and it is used to refer to both of Dany's dreams about Drogon before he hatched. I don't think that these dreams fit the fan-created definition, but neither do I think GRRM was trying to create his own definition of this term. In order to explain more fully, I will return to these two Dany dreams later. First I need to discuss the "definition" given to "dragon dreams" by the fandom. Here is the definition of "dragon dreams" cut and paste directly from the Wiki: The first problem is with the idea that Targaryen prophetic abilities have anything to do with "blood of the dragon". While some people in the story may think that, we as readers should know that is utter bullshit. Every dragonlord that ever existed had "blood of the dragon", yet only the Targaryens survived the Doom. They only survived because of Daenys' prophetic abilities. This is proof that the prophetic abilities of some Targaryens has absolutely nothing to do with "blood of the dragon". Thus, the fan-created definition of "dragon dreams" has to be changed: Dragon dreams affect Targaryens and their relatives, who are known to have premonition-like dream ability - they are no ordinary dreams. They often involve dragons but not always. Dragon dreams appear to have haunted those with Targaryen heritage throughout the generations; some more than others. Members of House Targaryen and House Blackfyre have had these dreams. With the "blood of the dragon" removed, the fan-created definition falls apart. It is completely circular reasoning. How do you know it is a dragon dream? A Targaryen dreamt it. What do you call a dream by a Targaryen? A Dragon Dream. This is why you make the claim that: Since the Targaryens prophetic abilities have nothing to do with blood of the dragon, there is no reason to think they are any different than green dreams. Here from the Wiki is the definition of Greensight: With the meaningless "blood of the dragon" removed from the Targaryen prophetic abilities, this definition of Greensight fits the Targaryens perfectly. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. There is no reason to think that the Targaryen prophetic abilities are anything but greensight. Greensight is a rare ability, which seems to reside most prominently in first men. Just like the assumption is made that people who have "dragon dreams" must be Targaryen, the assumption is made that everyone who has a green dream must be a first man. However, that is just an assumption. We don't actually know the "rules" behind who can be a green dreamer. What I propose is this, dragons were created as a counter measure to the others. Since dragons are fire made flesh, the dragonlords lived close to the fires from which dragons were made. When the greenseer(s) foresaw the destruction of Valyria, they reached out and contacted the ONE dragonlord who had the ability to receive their message and told her to leave Valyria with her family so that some dragons would survive. None of this violates what we know of greensight. The ability is still rare and runs in families. We have no idea of the deep history of the Targaryen, therefore, there is no reason to suppose that the Targaryen prophetic ability is anything other than greensight. So is there a type of dream that is exclusive to only those with the "blood of the dragon"? The answer to that is yes. And most Targaryen (and dragonlords) had them. They are not prophetic. They are most similar to the dreams of an untrained skinchanger. The similarity between "dragon dreams" and "wolf dreams" (I'm using wolf as a stand in for any of the animals a skinchanger can inhabit), is that they indicate a bond is being created between the dreamer and animal. One difference is that skinchangers are sharing a consciousness with their animal while dragon riders bond is more of a telepathic connection, they don't actually share consciousness. Another difference between "dragon dreams" and "wolf dreams" is that skinchanging is an ability that someone is naturally born with while "dragon dreams" are a magically created bond. When the dragons were created, human riders needed to be bonded to these weapons in order to make them useful. Therefore, dragon riders were bonded through blood (not fire) magic to their dragons and this desire, longing, yearning for a dragon is a hallmark of a "dragon dream". So here are the only three "dragon dreams" I propose as being in the stories (I have not read TPATQ and The Rogue Prince, so there maybe some in there). I have provided more of the quote for Aemon to demonstrate that Aemon's dreams about dragons are about something different than prophecy. These dreams are about the desire to reach out and connect with a dragon. Therefore, I suggest that the definition of "dragon dreams" return to what was suggested by GRRM's placement of this term. A "dragon dream" is a dream where a dragon and a potential rider reach out to one another and begin forming a bond. The reason Dany didn't continue to have dreams about a dragon is because once Drogon was hatched, she could bond with him directly. The reason Aemon and his brothers continued to be plagued by these dreams is because their dragons never hatched. Aemon said that all his brother dreamed of dragons, but only Daeron had prophetic dreams. This is another clue that dreams about dragons is different than prophetic dreaming. You suggested that I was confusing dragon dreams with dreams about dragons, but in reality I am saying that if there is no dragon in the dream and no bonding between dreamer and dragon occurs, then these are not dragon dreams. Dragon dreams are not prophetic (the three dreams I have quoted have foreshadowing, but not prophetic), they are the beginning process of turning the dreamer into a rider. Dreamers find their dreams of dragons to be inspiring and desirable. Dragon dreams only drive their dreamer crazy when the bonding can't be completed and the dreamer under goes extreme stress. The only other person in the stories who may have had dragon dreams is Tyrion. AGOT - Chapter 13: While there is not enough information here to determine if Tyrion really did have a dragon dream (under my definition), it is obvious that the Tyrion desired to bond with a dragon and the dreams brought him comfort.
  2. wake the dragon

    Since all the gemstones mentioned have a version in a purple shade, the eyes are most certainly all purple also. Therefore, they are certainly Dany's ancestors.
  3. The Most Accurate Predictions?

    Highly accurate, prophecies of these two people allowed others to take effective actions in the real world: Daenys: She did a whole book of prophecies. However, the only one we know definitely was hers was the Doom of Valyria, which was accurate enough that concrete action could be taken. Benerro: His visions are accurate enough that Moqorro could travel to Meereen (Moqorro is often given credit for Benerro's visions). . Accurate, prophecies of these people are accurate in retrospect. However, they are more symbolic and not clear enough to suggest different courses of action: Ghost of High Heart: All of hers have come to pass except for one, which is debated. Daeron: All of his have come to pass except for one, which isn't debated enough. Bran: I get the impression that Bran's visions are what could be, not necessarily what will be. However, there are no clear actions that an be taken. Melisandre: Her visions are accurate but highly symbolic. Because of the nature of her visons, her interpretations leave a lot of room for error. Special category, Maggy the Frog: Very accurate, however, her prophecy is a form of blood magic. It is not straight prophecy. I think the complaints against Maggy are somewhat exaggerated. Quaithe: It is not clear exactly what Quaithe is up to. She appears to be using glass candles to travel into Dany's dreams. However, where she is getting her information and why she is communicating with Dany is completely unknown at this time. Bloodraven: While Bloodraven was always a greenseer (people are born greenseers), his visions have probably become much clearer and more accurate since he has bonded with a tree. Marwyn: In answer to Hodor the Articulate's question above: Marwyn is a prophecy junkie like Aemon and Rhaegar. While all three were obsessed with prophecy, none of them actually had premonitions themselves. ETA: Special mention goes to Stannis Baratheon who saw the Battle at the Fist of the First Men in an exceptionally realistic vision. ETA2: I should have put Patchface in with Ghost of High Heart, etc. His prophecies are highly accurate in retrospect, but he has several that are still outstanding and their meaning is very debatable.
  4. What will be the fate of the Ironborn?

    I am actually pretty excited about the role of the Ironborn in the story. "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger." I feel sure that any people whose religion honors these words and drowns and then resuscitates its adherents will play a central role in the War for the Dawn. I am willing to bet that Ironborn who have been reborn(?) (I can't remember how they refer to their ritual) will not be able to be taken by the Others. I suspect that the Ironborn drowning ritual was method devised in the original War for Dawn for combating the Others. A particular interest of mine is how traditions persist through time, even when their original purpose may have been forgotten. The drowning ritual and Ironborn words seem like such a tradition to me. ETA: Also, Aeron was felt the need to drown and revive as many people as possible was urgent. I feel this is also significant.
  5. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    I find nothing to disagree with here. Have you heard of the word indenture? You are acting like the difference between slave and free is a bright clear line. You are also acting like an author can't make what ever rules they want for their fictional world. GRRM mixes and matches things from our world in a unique combination. These combinations sometimes don't make sense, but GRRM does it anyway. For instance, he mixes a land tenure system with a private property system. This makes no sense, but he does it anyway. We can only accept the world he gives us.
  6. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    Here is the most basic definition of apprentice: a person who works for another in order to learn a trade. At the same time Varys is telling Tyrion he was apprenticed to a troop of mummers, he tells Tyrion that the head of the troop sold him to someone else. If he was not a slave at the same time he was an apprentice, how was he sold? It is obvious in the world GRRM has created that slaves are apprentices, sometimes to other slaves. As Lord Varys says above, they have to get their training somehow.
  7. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    Slaves are definitely apprenticed. There are several examples in the novels, but the one most similar is the story Penny tells of her father (ADWD-Chapter 33): In a society that depends so heavily on slaves, even in highly skilled positions, some of them are going to have to be trained. And an apprentice is essentially a trainee. I can provide other examples if you like.
  8. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    It is part of Illyrio's backstory that he is in the import/export business like the Redwynes. It is the respectable cover story for the source of his wealth. That is why Tyrion mockingly calls him the cheese monger. While we know Dany dismantled his three ships that he sent with Groleo and Saan took one of them when it was moving through Blackwater Bay, Illyrio probably still has a few left.
  9. Figurative Reading of ASOIAF 101

    I myself have tried to suggest that some, not all, of the chapters should be read as murder mystery detective novels. When I read ASOIAF I see a writer who has honed their craft over many years and is showing off just how well they can do it all. More specifically, I have suggested that the Purple Wedding chapter is a nod to Agatha Christie's A Murder is Announced. In A Murder is Announced a person is killed in front of a room full of people, but none of the witnesses can say who did it. If the Purple Wedding chapter was a nod to Agatha Christie then the person who killed Joffrey was Sansa. While this suggestion was rather rudely received at the time, I hope it gets a little better consideration this time.
  10. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    I too think Illyrio is the descendant of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre. None of the backstory given at this point would rule that out. However, the rare Redwyne vintage could be evidence that the backstory of V&I is exactly as given. Remember, their backstory is that they gather incriminating evidence on individuals and then blackmailed them. The Redwyne wine could have been given as part of a blackmail payment.
  11. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    Sorry, I wrote this response to Illyrio Mo'Parties and not you. I will copy paste it here (fixing typos). I obviously was too subtle in my response to the "Redwyne" clothing. That same chest contained a purple velvet doublet with brass studs, a doublet of yellow wool embroidered in green floral patterns, a pair of solid green breeches, and a pair of red and white striped breeches. The fact that there were also a blue doublet and burgundy breeches is completely unremarkable.
  12. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    I've already addressed this. I thought you had something new. Sorry.
  13. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    Really. I'm willing to learn. What did he say?
  14. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    I obviously was too subtle in my response to the "Redwyne" clothing. That same chest contained a purple velvet doublet with brass studs, a doublet of yellow wool embroidered in green floral patterns, a pair of solid green breeches, and a pair of red and white striped breeches. The fact that there were also a blue double and burgundy breeches is completely unremarkable. The difference between Aegon being introduced when he was and what you are suggesting is that GRRM up the Aegon reveal and he hasn't set up a similar reveal for V&I. I know there are some people left who insist that Aegon wasn't foreshadowed, but they have been proved wrong. Before Aegon appeared, there was a small minority who predicted he would appear. The fact that he did appear shows they did not imagine the clues they were seeing. In regards to Pycelle, the only information he has would be what Varys had fed to his operatives in Essos. The Citadel is not that interested in Essos that they have some sort of information network set up there.
  15. Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

    I do understand how narrative works and if GRRM was going to give V&I a substantially different backstory he would have laid the groundwork by now. The only thing we will see from this point on is "the rest of the story" type material. Which of these colors is the Redwyne colors?