bent branch

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  1. Be very careful about letting the show influence how you understand the books. They are very different beasts now and I doubt you can get any insight from either of them about the other. In the books, Jon doesn't get the news (gossip?) about the dragons until pretty far into ADWD. Jon hears about the dragons from Tycho Nestoris. This can be considered the first the Wall is hearing about them. Since Melisandre is at the Wall, we can't consider her to have heard from a natural source until this point. Like I said before, visions and their interpretation are very shaky things.
  2. 5. It was cremated. This is per an SSM. 6. We don't know what Ned said to his sister. Except for "Promise me" we don't know what Lyanna said. 7.Lyanna's body was prepared by the Silent Sisters and returned to Winterfell. ALL Starks are buried in the crypts. The only way Ned broke tradition was having a statue of Lyanna made. He also broke the tradition for Brandon. Is it significant? Probably? Maybe? Either way, the promise Lyanna wanted probably did not relate to the handling of her remains.
  3. Re: 2- Like I said, I think taking the time to try to convince Dany she is a supposedly long dead relative is waste of time. I wouldn't do it even if I were Shiera. Re: 3- One of Melisandre's biggest problems seems to be her visions don't tell her when or where. She may have seen the dragons, but believes they are yet to come. The best example I can think of to illustrate what I mean is when she sees Bloodraven and Bran in a vision. Notice how the vision is of something current, but yet very symbolic. If Melisandre has seen the dragons, she may not know how they relate.
  4. Agreed that when it's spelled out for everyone, that IS the reveal.
  5. 1. No, not really. 2. If she is Shiera Seastar would it be helpful to reveal who she is to Dany? Shiera would be about Bloodraven's age and, therefore, not immediately identifiable to Dany. Hell, Dany would probably not believe her. If I were a 120-year-old woman, I wouldn't bother trying to convince someone of that. 3. Has Melisandre learned of Dany's dragons? I don't remember that happening. 4. Maybe.
  6. By what time? It is obvious from the nonsense you wrote before that you have no idea about how Stannis and Selyse came to be married. Stannis married Selyse about the same time Robert married Cersei and for the same reason. Both marriages were intended to help stabilized Westeros after Robert's Rebellion. I have no idea why Stannis marrying Selyse would piss off the Tyrells. The Tyrells had no female family members to offer at the time Stannis and Selyse's marriage happened. As for the authority Robert had to order Stannis to marry Selyse, he was (1) Stannis' older brother. In Westeros, younger brothers are supposed to obey their older brothers. Another example of this is Hoster Tully trying to get his brother Blackfish to make a politically advantageous marriage. Blackfish said no and Hoster kicked him out. Because that is the way things work in Westeros. (2) Robert was the king and he can arrange marriages. An example of this that we see is the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa. Joffrey was able to order their wedding since as the king he could stand in as a parent/guardian. It is true people ordered to marry can choose not to, but there are generally consequences for not obeying. Really, both men and women up and down the social ladder in Westeros can be forced into marriage. As for a quote, why don't you give one where someone says Stannis married Selyse to piss off the Tyrells. Instead of insisting the other person provide a quote, why don't you find one support your position first. I am actually looking for the section of text talking about Stannis marrying at Robert's order (I think it is in a Cersei chapter). But as I said elsewhere it takes a lot of time and effort to find these quotes. You shouldn't be making claims sans quotes yourself.
  7. Well, as Pycelle has openly admitted to betraying two kings (Aerys and Robert) to advance Tywin's interests, I didn't think I was making that much of a stretch to think he might poison Renly. In that case, Tywin wouldn't need to rise. He'd just move to KL to help Renly's heirs (Tywin's grandchildren). I don't see why Pycelle would be any more afraid of Renly than he was of Aerys and Robert. Robert ordered Stannis to marry Selyse and like the dutiful brother he was he married her.
  8. Actually, you did make a claim. I have quoted it again below. My response to this was to say we would have to agree to disagree. You said this wasn't enough for you. You wanted me to give you quotes to back up my claim. I said that was more work than I wanted to do, so why didn't you give some quotes to back up your claim. In my six years on this forum it is my experience that the people who demand I provide quotes are not actually open to having their minds changed by seeing those quotes. Since you are new here I will give you one quote as a sign of good faith. It is from the Prologue of ACOK: Cressen was heartbroken at Renly's actions. Other people's reactions are not so tender-hearted. Renly was breaking one of Westeros society's taboos. People were not going to look upon his actions kindly. Just as Tywin had many people who hated and despised him, Renly was also making himself enemies. Just because people recognize Renly's large army, it doesn't mean they respect him.
  9. My experience with Renly fans is that they resist textural evidence that disagrees with their rosy view of Renly. It takes a lot of time and effort to gather such evidence and it isn't worth my time when I know you will just dismiss it anyway. Why don't you show me all this support for Renly in the text? Your handicap will be that they cannot be someone who has already decided to support Renly. Show me where there was a well of support that Renly had yet to tap.
  10. Then Renly is doomed. I am not the one who wrote it such that Renly's heirs (until he had some of his own) were Cersei's children and the Grand Maester (which the Citadel chose) was Tywin's man through and through. Maybe Renly couldn't see that he was a dead man if he didn't kill them, but the reader should know that there was no way Renly lived as long as there was Pycelle and a Lannister heir to the throne. ETA: Like I said before, by killing Renly through supernatural means, GRRM muddied the fact that Renly's path to the throne was through the death of everyone he thought was his blood relative or else Renly ultimately died. There was no other way for Renly. That is why most Westerosi were rather horrified by what he was doing. To summarize, Renly killed all his blood relatives (with the possible exception of Shireen) or he failed.
  11. Renly did not lie. If Renly knew before he could have told Robert. Robert would have killed Jaime, Cersei and the three children. Then Renly could have presented Margaery to Robert without any problems. Renly's behavior indicated that he didn't know and GRRM backed up that impression by having Renly himself say so. Besides, why would Renly have any problem with admitting Stannis was king? By Westerosi standards, Renly was already betraying Stannis. This wasn't changed by the fact of the three children. Renly had to kill all three children in order to secure his throne. As long as any of the three children lived, the Lannisters would continue to press their claim. When GRRM had Renly killed by supernatural means he kind of smudged the fact that Renly was always the most vulnerable of the kings and was destined to die. If the Lannister bastards lived Renly was always a target for assassination. The fact that Pycelle was clearly Tywin's man shows Renly had no possibility of survival as long as one of the children lived. The thing is that the children were always destined to die. The only "player" who thought of those childrens' welfare was Ned. And look at how that went.
  12. I'm sorry, no. Renly not only didn't know about the incest, but when he found out about it he didn't believe it. (ACOK - Chapter 31): So, there it is. Renly believed Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were his blood relatives but he had every intention of killing them anyway.
  13. Basically this. Renly was already intending to kill his brothers legitimate children, why would he legitimize a person who would then have greater claim to the throne than him?
  14. You're right. I forgot it was Osha that helped them escape. Bran might have told Osha. We do know they got from the Great Hall to the crypts somehow without being seen. This passageway would have been good for that. Anyhow, it is possible that the importance of the secret passage was as an explanation given ahead of time as to how they escaped and also as a hint that other secret passages may exist.