bent branch

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  1. I think the point I was trying to make was that Jaime already intended to betray Aerys. That's why he wore the gold armor. So I'm not sure anything would be different. Unless, of course, he didn't kill Rossart first. But I will bow out since you want to discuss what would happen if KL went up.
  2. I'm convinced that not much of anything would have happened. Jaime had already killed the Pyromancer Hand (Rossart?) so the order to light the wildfire couldn't be given. Pretty sure Jaime killed Aerys just because he hated him. Oh, and Jaime still hasn't revealed everything about that day. He shouldn't have been wearing gold armor. That's a clue.
  3. And that system works in the other direction. Pycelle feeds gossip into the Citadel that then spreads it through the household maesters. Lady Dustin said the maesters had something they were whispering in their lord's ear. Is this how the gossip of Aerys "madness" was spread? Most likely since most of the lords didn't interact with Aerys directly. As you have said yourself, it seemed that Rickard's interaction with Aerys was fine when they met face to face. Indeed, the maesters are mediating most of the communication between these different regions. If the maesters weren't spreading the gossip, then most lords wouldn't have any way of knowing what was going on at court. Think about it. ETA: It ALL comes back to Pycelle in one way or another.
  4. Why do you think he had a different source for that section? Did not the Year of the False Spring happen in Aerys reign? If you believe that Yandel used another source, then cite it. Don't just use vague "other" sources, cite them. If you can't, then you're just passing on gossip.
  5. You're right. Yandel said it based on gossip he got from Pycelle. The readers believe it because they don't look at Aerys actions, which indicate that Aerys trusted Rhaegar and distrusted Tywin. This is how GRRM manages to "surprise" people. They take information from dodgy sources and believe it.
  6. I don't see how what you're saying is any different than what I am saying. The novels don't actually say that Rhaegar was attempting to convene a Great Council. This is just something the fandom has decided since seeing that Great Councils can be called. How one understands something depends greatly on what information they pay attention to. For instance, we are told from the rebel's POV that Aerys was crazy paranoid, even doubting his Hand and son. Then TWOIAF reveals that Tywin made a statement that got that gossip going. Aerys actually had some reason for doubting his Hand and his son. We know that Varys was brought in about two years before RR. After that point, Aerys appears to trust Rhaegar, but he takes Jaime hostage against Tywin. This suggests that it was Tywin, not Rhaegar, who was working against Aerys. Or at least that Varys was warning Aerys against Tywin, not Rhaegar.
  7. Actually, Rhaegar said he intended to do something. It is the fandom that has translated that into a call for a Great Council.
  8. Yes we do and their view of the rebellion was much less harsh on the Targaryen's. 1. Barristan said that there were rumors that there was a split between Aerys and Rhaegar. But he also says no one approached him from one side or the other. This suggests that the rumor of a split between Aerys and Rhaegar was JUST a rumor and that there was no actual split. 2. Barristan says he watched Aerys go mad after Duskendale, indicating that Barristan found nothing wrong with Aerys before Duskendale. Pycelle insists that Aerys was that way from the beginning. 3. JonCon was a part of Aerys' court before Tywin departed. When he was asked to become Hand he had no qualms about accepting. Further, he blames being exiled not on Aerys' "madness", but on his own incompetency. 4. Although JonCon is acknowledged repeatedly throughout the book as one of Rhaegar's closest associates, JonCon never thinks along the lines of if only they had moved faster to remove Aerys. These four facts indicate that the rumors spread by Pycelle were mostly exaggerations or out right lies. Here is a challenge that I have given to everyone who claims that the story we've heard is more or less true. Find a quote from the book where someone says it was really Tywin that ran the country who is not a Lannister associate. No one has ever found such a quote. The idea that Tywin was the one really running things is just another Pycelle lie. ETA: 5. Aerys chose one of Rhaegar's closest friends as Hand. Strongly suggests any animosity between Aerys and Rhaegar was strongly exaggerated. Really, so much depends upon what facts you pay attention to.
  9. Where did I say Tywin didn't want Aerys removed? Of course he doesn't hide the source of gossip, he wants to make Aerys doubt Rhaegar and him. The rumors were that Aerys and Rhaegar didn't trust one another. The rumors said that there were Aerys' supporters and Rhaegar's supporters. However, Barristan said that although he heard the rumors, no one approached him. So one of our few eye witnesses to Aerys court says there were rumors, but he never saw any evidence they were true. In fact, this is the crux of the matter, Pycelle admits he betrayed Aerys for Tywin and yet most readers believe what Pycelle had to say about Aerys. I believe that Pycelle, working in conjunction with the Citadel, was attempting to bring down house Targaryen. I think Pycelle murdered Jaehaerys and all of Aerys and Rhaella's children except for Rhaegar and Viserys. I believe that the maesters of the great houses were encouraging the great houses to form alliances to challenge Aerys authority. Tywin was part of this, he tried to marry Jaime to Lysa Tully. I think it will be revealed that Rickard and Brandon were justifiably executed for treason. I believe that Ned and Robert were engaging in activities that constituted treason and that is why Aerys called for their heads. Like I said, so far we have only heard one side of the story of Robert's Rebellion. I guarantee you that once we hear the other side of the story the people we are so attached to won't seem as innocent as they do now.
  10. Actually, from the recent interview with GRRM, Dondarrion is indeed very dead. ETA: We know from Dondarrion that fire wights can be killed just like any other human being. Every time he was killed again, Thoros brought Beric back. But he was being "killed" again.
  11. Here is the problem for me, we have only heard the rebels side of the story on the fall of the Targaryens. This means there is the Targaryen side of the story yet to be told. When GRRM has failed to tell one whole side of the story, you can bet there is something there that will change how we feel about things we think we already know well. I shortcut my answer to Lord Varys not out of animosity, but because he and I have been debating just how much Pycelle betrayed the Targaryens since TWOIAF was published with not much movement on either side. Any reply I made wasn't going to be different from stuff he's already heard. But since you haven't heard my argument, I will shortcut it for you. 1. Tywin wanted his daughter to be queen. 2. Aerys refused the marriage. 3. Rhaegar married Elia. Note that after this, merely replacing Aerys with Rhaegar would not help Tywin get what he wanted, Cersei being queen. For Cersei to be queen at this point, Rhaegar needed to be removed from the line of succession and Viserys made next heir apparent. The age difference between Viserys and Cersei is 10 years, but is this really anymore unlikely than Tommen and Marge's marriage? 4. The Defiance of Duskendale happened. Note that this is another situation where we hear only one side of the story. We have no idea what the Darklyns thought they could accomplish with this action. During this time, Tywin makes a comment that creates gossip about Rhaegar replacing Aerys. This potentially drives a wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar. 5. The tournament at Harrenhall occurs. We know there was a wealthy, mysterious backer of the tournament. The rumors were that Rhaegar was behind this tournament in order to remove his father from the throne. However (and I am assuming that Tywin was the wealthy backer), since making Rhaegar king wouldn't make Cersei queen, I am proposing that the reason behind Harrenhall was to get Rhaegar accused and convicted of treason. This would mean Rhaegar was executed and Viserys would be the new heir to the throne. Tywin would get a second shot at making Cersei queen. As far as Pycelle goes, he himself told Tyrion that he did everything he could to support Tywin ruling. If the marriage between Rhaegar and Cersei or Viserys and Cersei had ever occurred, then Aerys would have died shortly after, leaving a powerful Tywin to manipulated the new young king. And after Cersei gave birth to her first son, her husband would die of a "bad belly" and Tywin would be regent to an infant king. Ta-dah! Pycelle's goal achieved.
  12. I'm still not seeing what information Pycelle could have on Aegon that would be worth killing for. Say Pycelle knows the boy he saw in KL has a birthmark on his right thigh. Pycelle doesn't have access to the young man Aegon to see if he has a birthmark there. And by the time Pycelle is in a position to verify such a birthmark (hypothetical since Pycelle is dead), it doesn't matter since Aegon has already won or been killed.
  13. In my previous posts I forgot to say that I think the first king Pycelle betrayed was Jaehaerys II. Aegon was born on Dragonstone. Pycelle probably didn't have any special knowledge of Aegon.
  14. What difference does it make that Catelyn is "alive"? We are discussing returning the Tullys to Riverrun so that other people could maybe inherit from them. Until they are returned Riverrun from a monarch, no one can inherit Riverrun from them.
  15. Sorry, still not seeing it. I don't think GRRM will return to this issue this quickly. Besides, Edmure has a good chance of dying in the prologue. I think the odds he will die are at least 50-50.