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  1. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    So Aerys had to go because he killed Ned's father and brother, but it is completely okay for Robert to kill Ned's sister because she wasn't into him. I mean Lyanna wasn't even Robert's wife and Robert wasn't king when she rejected him. Cersei insulted Robert's manhood all the time and she still had her head after fifteen years. Honor killings are not a thing in Westeros. I'm so fed up with the silliness of this thread that I'm trying to pull myself back, but surely you can see the insanity of what you are suggesting.
  2. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    Your claim: People in KL could have told Ned that the KG didn't go to Dragonstone. Why this doesn't make the point you want it to make: People in KL could have also told Ned that the KG weren't at Storm's End, but they didn't. The only points this makes is that Ned didn't find out where the KG had gone in KL and he wasn't even trying to find out. We are told that Ned thought the KG had gone to Dragonstone in the fever dream. Why do you need to be told again? I'm not trying to be a bitch here. I really don't understand the need to be told this again. There is nothing logical about associating the KG with Lyanna. As far as Ned knows Lyanna is not royalty. Since he had absolutely no knowledge about the condition of his sister, he would have no reason to believe that Aerys or Rhaegar would order them to continue guarding her. Seriously, try to forget what you know and then try to make a logical argument of why they would be with Lyanna. Try to see it from Ned's POV.
  3. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    I am being completely serious. Although from various comments made I am beginning to understand why some people may think that Ned was being secretive when he totally wasn't. When Ned left KL after the sack, he was basically doing what we see Jaime doing in AFFC. He was mopping up leftover issues from the war. One of these issues was finding and bringing his sister home. Since Robert was claiming that the whole reason he started the war was to get Lyanna back, it was impossible for the mission to find and get Lyanna to be secret. I think the difference lies in the difference between the definitions of the words secret and discreet. The definition of secret is: adjective: not known or seen or not meant to be known or seen by others; or noun: something that is kept or meant to be kept unknown or unseen by others* The definition of discreet is: careful and circumspect in one's speech or actions, especially in order to avoid causing offense or to gain an advantage; intentionally unobtrusive* When Ned went looking for Lyanna, he didn't know what he was going to find. In order to control the story coming out about the circumstances in which Lyanna was found, Ned decided to take only six men who he trusted to be discreet and not gossip about what they saw. Ned was trying to preserve as much of Lyanna's dignity as possible. This decision of Ned's is evidence that he didn't expect to find the KG there or to have to fight to get Lyanna. Remember, these men were chosen for their discretion, not fighting ability. Ethan Glover and Howland Reed are proof of that. To summarize, everyone knew Ned was going to find Lyanna, few knew what circumstances she was found in. So, I completely reject the claim that Ned was being secretive because it is inaccurate and misleading. Another idea that is inaccurate and misleading is the idea that Ned was looking for the missing KG in order to find his sister. Indeed, the fever dream makes it clear that Ned thought the missing KG had gone to Dragonstone with the queen and Viserys. Ned was completely and unpleasantly surprised to find them with Lyanna. I have included the text so that people can see for themselves that (1) Ned thought they had gone to Dragonstone and (2) Ned did not go to the places he went in order to find the missing KG. He merely mentions places he had been where he was surprised not to see them. It is so obvious that Ned thought the KG went to Dragonstone that I don't really know how to respond to those claim that Ned knew they were at ToJ. Those people are simply wrong. The only real argument that could be made is that the fever dream was confused. However, in real life Ned took men who weren't up to the task of taking on the KG. This is the verification that Ned didn't know they would be there. In order to make a reasonable guess as to who told Ned where Lyanna was there were three variables needing to be met. 1) The informant had to be close enough to Aerys' court to have the chance to find out the information. 2) The informant had to survive the war so they could pass on the information. 3) The informant needed to be in a place where they could tell Ned 4) The informant needed to be willing to tell Ned There were only three people who fit the first two variables: Barristan, Jaime, and Varys. There were only two people who fit the second two variables: Jaime and Varys. There is only one person left who could fit the third variable: Varys. *Thanks to for definitions.
  4. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    You have just disproven your own argument. As you said, Ned had just been in KL. Ned found out the missing KG had not been there for a long time. He assumed they must have been at the siege (this indicates that he had been told nothing about their location of the KG while in KL). However, the book tells us that at this point Ned assumes the missing KG have been with Rhaella, Darry, and the children all this time. Ned assumes that they went into exile with Darry and the children. To assume that Ned is thinking otherwise is contrary to the book. The most important thing to notice is that Ned is making assumptions about the whereabouts of the missing KG. Ned is not taking measures to correct his assumptions about the location of the missing KG because he is not looking for them. He is not associating the missing KG with his missing sister. Therefore, he would not go about looking for his sister by looking for the KG.
  5. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    The only thing that happened at Storm's End was that Ned saw the KG weren't serving there so he assumed that they went with Willem Darry and the kids. Full stop. There is literally no one at the siege on either side that has any idea where Lyanna was. Come on, who do you think Rhaegar told, Stannis or Mace Tyrell? KL is the last place Ned was in contact with someone who could reasonably be expected to know.
  6. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    AGOT-Chapter 4: "Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection..." AGOT-Chapter 12: It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. AGOT-Chapter 12: "That did not bring her back." Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. "The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe...and mine again, as she was meant to be..." AGOT-Chapter 45: ...(Eddard) What did he do to make you hate him so?" Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." There you go. These are only four quotes. All from AGOT. There are others where other characters (Davos, Brienne, Bran and Catelyn to name a few) talk about how Robert's Rebellion happened when Rhaegar kidnapped Robert's betrothed Lyanna. All showing that Eddard did not have to secretively go to find Lyanna. Robert would have been all to happy to have gotten Lyanna back, even under those circumstances. It was only after Ned discovered that she had given birth to Rhaegar's child that a problem arose. I don't know how you missed this aspect of the story. These references come from the first 45 chapters in the series and I didn't even use all of them.
  7. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    ??????????????????????????? Uh, no. Edited to add stuff so it's no so rude. If you remember one of the stories about why Robert's Rebellion happened was because Robert was trying to save his betrothed. There is no way anyone was going to behead Lyanna.
  8. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    Why the hell did Ned need to be secretive about what he was doing? Ned thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Robert also thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Ned was going to bring back his sister. Robert also wanted Lyanna brought back. It wasn't until Ned found a dying Lyanna and Jon that he needed to get secretive. Geesh.
  9. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    We know that Ned did not expect to find the missing KG and Lyanna in the same place because he didn't go prepared for a fight. This should be obvious.
  10. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    You know, when people ignore the text is when I start thinking they are stretching to suit their own belief. Let's review a little bit shall we? We know from the text that Ned didn't expect to find the missing Kingsguard with Lyanna. From this we know that who ever informed Ned didn't tell him about the KG with Lyanna. Knowing this, why did Ned go to Ashara to find Lyanna? It might make sense for Ned to go ask Ashara if she knew where her brother was, but since Ned didn't think Arthur and Lyanna were in the same place, I have to ask you, why would Ned go to Ashara to find Lyanna? I am asking this question as someone who believes that Ashara was intimately involved with this conspiracy. But as far as I can tell from the text, there is no way that Ned would have thought of Ashara as someone who would know where Lyanna is. You are making the leap of Ashara being someone who would know where Lyanna is (which I agree with) to Ned knowing that Ashara is someone who could tell him where Lyanna is (which I disagree with). So Ned was informed by someone else. Backing up for a bit, let's return to the idea of distance. GRRM has released maps and given an approximate size for the Westeros continent. He has said that Westeros is approximately the size of South America (or about 7 million square miles). If Ned was looking for Lyanna, he was wasting time going from one coast to another coast unless he had a good reason. Hell, if Ned just stopped and asked at each place along the way he would have found Lyanna about 300 miles before he got to Starfall. This large distance between ToJ and Starfall is one of the reasons Ned was considered such a good guy for personally returning the sword. With a newborn in tow it would have taken him at least a week to reach Starfall. But since you are unimpressed with the large distances involved, let's move on. Ned stating that he did not expect to find the KG with Lyanna could be dismissed as part of the fever dream unless we consider who Ned took with him. Ned took only a few men with him and these men were more his friends than his best fighters. This suggests that Ned's surprise in the fever dream at finding the KG with Lyanna was an accurate reflection of his surprise in real life. The party that Ned took with him suggests that Ned wasn't certain what he would find when he reached Lyanna, but he wanted to consider her feelings by having only close acquaintances with him. This also backs up the idea that Ned was informed of Lyanna's whereabouts by an anonymous tip. Since he had no idea what he would find, it suggests that he wasn't able to ask questions of his informant. Exactly what you would expect if someone received an anonymous tip. The fact that you can only imagine that Varys found out about Lyanna's whereabouts by Rhaegar blabbing is more a reflection of you. There are numerous ways Varys could have found out. Here are two: 1) One of Varys' birds heard Rhaegar tell someone where he had been; 2) Rhaegar could have told Varys himself (gasp). I provided one example of text indicating that Varys knew almost everything that happened in the Red Keep. I chose that piece of text because it is one I am familiar with and could find easily. There are lots of others in the novels. It is well established that Varys does indeed know just about everything that goes on within the Red Keep. It is also well established in the novels that the two places that Varys has a more difficult time monitoring are the godswood and Maegor's Holdfast. That Varys doesn't know everything if obviously true since one big conspiracy Varys missed was Joffrey and Janos Slynt's conspiracy to execute Ned. From the information we are given, it is reasonable to assume that the reason Varys didn't know was because the conspiracy was hatched within Maegor's Holdfast (where Joffrey's private quarters were). However, the reader is supposed to understand that Varys' failing in this instance was extremely rare. So you are right, Varys doesn't know everything, but it is also true that by saying Varys doesn't know everything you are giving yourself permission to make up anything you like. Finally, the person who told Ned had to have been in KL. There is literally no one who was at Storm's End that would know anything about Lyanna at all. If we look at named people who were present in the months leading up to the fall of the Targaryens, there are surprisingly few people who made it through (although it appears Thoros was one). The people close to Rhaegar that might have known are Jaime, Barristan and Varys. That's it. Barristan had not returned to KL by the time Ned left. Jaime would have told his father not Ned. And so we are left with Varys. On a side note, the idea that Benjen was aware of Lyanna running off with Rhaegar is extremely plausible. However, there is no evidence that anyone involved knew they'd end up at the ToJ, so Benjen is an unlikely candidate, although not impossible.
  11. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    No, it really doesn't. Varys needed Ned to go to the Wall so that full scale war didn't break out. Given that, which works better? 1. Hey, Ned. I was the one who slipped that note to you about Lyanna's whereabouts. Aren't you grateful enough to me to go live the rest of your life on the Wall? or 2. Hey, Ned. If you don't go to the Wall I'll bring your daughter's head with me next time I visit, okay? If you're thinking that Varys can use the information to threaten Ned with, you'd be wrong. Varys would have to reveal far more about what he knows than would be safe. Also, you are making a huge assumption that Varys is willing to reveal that much information to Ned. Revealing that he knows about Jon opens a can of worms that Varys doesn't need opened. I have noticed the fetish of some people who want Varys to know less than he logically does. I don't really understand that. We know that this exchange between Dontos and Sansa is an accurate picture of life within the RK (ASOS-Chapter 18): We know Dontos is not exaggerating. We know there are secret passages everywhere in the Red Keep (except Maegor's Holdfast) and that Varys has children in all of them. I don't see why Varys would still be ignorant of where Rhaegar had taken Lyanna after Rhaegar had returned to KL. You would actually have to prove he didn't know rather than the opposite. The reason it makes no sense for someone outside of KL to have told Ned is because of the distances covered. After all, from KL to Storm's End to Starfall back to the ToJ is a journey of over 1,500 miles (2400 kilometers). I have gotten into conversations before where people didn't realize the distances being discussed. However, once people realize the distances being talked about, many agree that Ned had to know where he was going before he even left KL.
  12. Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

    I'm positive it was Varys. The usual objection to this is that when Varys and Ned meet in KL it doesn't seem like they have the type of relationship you would expect if Varys told Ned. But if you look at how Varys lured Kevan into Pycelle's quarters it is easy to see how Varys could have told Ned where Lyanna was without revealing himself as the informant. Varys sent Ned a note delivered by a child. Notice how Kevan has no suspicion of the child delivering his note. Indeed, Kevan barely notices the child. Ned would have been the same.
  13. You know, I actually take that as foreshadowing that Sansa will die. Arya has made herself a new pack through every situation she has found herself in. On the other hand, Sansa has consistently failed to form a new pack for herself. She always chooses to trust those whose intentions she should question. Currently, I consider Sansa to be on her own since LF is completely untrustworthy. To make matters worse, Sansa doesn't seem to realize just how bad her situation is. The one person who I think will survive until the end is Bran.
  14. GRRM has also said that what made Melisandre so misunderstood is that we couldn't see things from her perspective. Now that she has had her own POV, GRRM says that Varys is the most misunderstood character. An interesting essay. However, I think I disagree. I think the problem was that GRRM felt forced to tell a part of the story he never intended to. He struggle with a way to make things interesting and relevant when he never wanted to tell some of the characters stories at all.
  15. Illyrio's 3 heads

    I disagree. What you are not acknowledging is that thinking someone may die in attempting something is not the same as wanting that person to die. There is not one scintilla of evidence that Illyrio and Varys wanted either Viserys or Dany to die and numerous points of evidence that they wanted them to live. As has been pointed out many times, Illyrio could have killed Viserys and Dany while they were in his mansion and NO ONE would have said boo about it. No one who argues that Dany and Viserys were sent to the Dothraki to die have ever given a good argument as to why they weren't just killed in Illyrio's mansion. In American Football there is evidence that 30% of professional players will end up with brain damage of a type that will send them into early severe dementia. Despite this, many American parents allow their children to play football. Does that mean their parents say, "I want my child to get early severe dementia!"? No, what it means is that they would like to give their child the chance at the benefits that could come to them if they turn out to be talented at football. If you can't see that Illyrio sent Dany to the Dothraki despite the risks instead of because of the risks than we really don't have any point of commonality upon which to build a discussion.