ace

That's public entertainment for you. Every villain has to be the worse than he is. And every good guy better than he is. They did the same with with Geoffrey,

That RW is gutting every time. When I read it I knew from spoilers it was coming and I still threw away the book in flustration. (Yeah, I picked it back up later). And watching it, despite knowing it was coming was still hard. This is one episode I will not be re-watching. Well, ASOIAF is a harsh mistress, and treats us badly, but that's why we love it. PS Didn't Jayne survive the real one? Or is my memory betraying me?

The dragon stealing was probably the biggest departure from the books so far. My first thought was that it was the warlocks, though what was that tower? Could that be the house of the undying? I see they decided to portray Robb's affair with Jayne. Of course that makes no sense. Book Robb married her because he slept with her. The whole point was that it was a spur of the moment thing. By portraying this as a long affair the show makes Robb look stupid. He knows he shouldn't betray the Freys and still he does it. Makes the RW almost well deserved. Same with Jon. The whole point of his defection was that Qhorin ordered him to go with them and do whatever they asked of him. Now he's apparently lost with Ygrette and she takes him to Mance herself. Seeing Tywin Lannister, Hand of the King, Warden of the West, the Queen's father, richest and most powerful man in all the Seven Kingdom's doing psychotherapy sessions with a 10 year old lowborn servant girl was bizarre to say the least. I know this is Hollywood but at least try to make the show look believable. The best parts of the episode were no doubt in Winterfell. It was interesting to see how Theon is pressured by his men into becoming a tyrant. In the book it kinda came natural to him. I probably prefer this version though I will now not be able to hate this Theon with quite the same passion. Only complaints I have (besides the obvious ones about shortening every scene) are Rodrick apparently going from Winterfell to Torrhen's square, retaking it, then coming back at the same time that it took Theon to get to Winterfell once, and Theon started earlier. Might be a nitpick but it's this kind of things that hurt the immersion in the story. And where's Bolton's bastard? Without him there will have to be major changes to Theon's story too.

That was a good one. I thought Renly's death was well done. Though Brienne saying the shadow looked like Stannis is ridiculous. She might've seen Stannis once for about 30 seconds and already she can recognize his face in that black shifting smoke. But what bothered me more is her saying she only got to touch him once. That sounds to me like she wanted for him. Like sexually. Brienne? I don't think so. In Winterfell it looks like Bran will be having the green dreams instead of Jojen. Give me back my Reeds. :bawl: Also there had to be some serious suspension of disbelief for me to accept that Theon with the crew of a single ship (100 if I'm very generous) can besiege 1 castle and take another. I just don't understand this change. There were no budget of time reasons for it, it's like change for change's sake. And it isn't good change. Also it was funny watching Yara trying to show swagger. It sits on her like humility on Asha. I don't remember was the wildfire Cersei's idea in the book too? I thought that was all Tyrion but I could be wrong. Jon in the north was good I thought. Tywin talking to Arya? Like Robb and the nurse in the last episode it's so very Hollywood though so not ASOIAF. I still can't help feeling that Jaqen is too plain for me. Across the narrow sea we got another glimpse of a dragon. For all of 20 seconds. I guess that should last us until next season. I'm worried the house of the undying will be chopped down to barely a hut. 1 room, 1 minute and she's out. It was actually too long in the book, but I hope they won't cut too much. And who was that woman that talked to Jorah? I don't remember her at all in the book. I continue to be impressed by how well Davos is portrayed. As good as Stannis is bad. Finally, no porn at all in this episode. What's up with that? Did the SNL skit get through to to them, or will we be "compensated" by a full 20 minutes next episode?

The :cool4: : Qarth looks cool (hope to see more) Harrenhal looks awesome (also see negative) The Robb scene Torture with a rat is pretty creative. Cat getting Ned's bones (though how LF knew she was there is still a mystery) The :mellow: : The shadow The Renly-Stannis meeting (Renly :cool4:, Stannis :frown5: ) Sansa torture scene (too short) The :frown5: : The Mountain isn't imposing and the Tickler is a clown (yeah I nitpick, so sue me) Tyrion-Lancel confrontation LF hitting on Cat (not cool and so unlike him) The redcloaks know about Renly+Loras= :love: The :bang: : The Joffrey porn Hope I didn't forget anything. Gave it 6. 7 for the episode, -1 for the porn PS I wonder how many more creative ways the writers will find to avoid showing us the dragons

Still not sure what I think about the episode. Overall not as good as the last one though probably better than the first 2. Good things first. Qarth looked cool, and so did the shadow assassin (though that's not how I pictured him). The Sansa scene was OK, though short. But then that's a complaint that could be made about a lot of scenes in the show. I liked the Robb scene (although from the conversation of the 2 guards it's clear that Renly+Loras is in fact common knowledge which is not only extremely unlike the book, it plainly doesn't make any sense). Now to the not so good. I finally decided I'm not liking the show's depiction of Stannis and Melisandre. Stannis in particular is nothing like in the book. He's in fact dull, and the confrontation with Renly was very disappointing. And Mel is too plain looking, and the "night is full of terrors" line can only work so many times before becoming repetitive. Though it was cool to see Harrenhal it's odd that they started asking "Is there gold in this village?" 2 weeks and 500 km after they left said village. The Mountain is tall but too thin. The Tickler wasn't what I pictured (more stand-up comedian than creepy torturer) but overall the torture scenes were nicely done. The actor that plays Lancel... Was he auditioned at all? That entire scene was very badly done. The script was too short to properly convey the condescension->anger->shock->confusion->humiliation->begging and it wasn't helped at all by what I though was school play level acting. Finally the ugly. That Joffrey sado-maso scene. WTF?! This show is literally turning into porn now. I'm not some saintly puritan but this wasn't just unnecessary and a waste of screen time, it was just cringe-worthy, disgusting and crappy. Seriously Mrs. D&D, real porn is easily available these days, stop messing up the show with your sick fantasies.

I'm curious why many people think Show Shae is very different from Book Shae. My memory may be a bit hazy but they seem similar enough. Both are always ready to pleasure Tyrion, which is pretty much her role in the story. There was never much character development on her. Book Shae also complained when Tyrion wanted to send her to the kitchens, and she was eventually made a handmaiden though it wasn't for Sansa in the book. But since that girl was cut it makes sense to give her to Sansa

But these aren't smallfolk commenting on Renly's clothes. These are LF, Varys and Stannis, they are all nobles themselves all good at state craft and all described as well dressed, and they saw fit to comment specifically on Renly's fashion sense and not in the context of a discussion on fashion but in the context of discussing Renly's personality. All describe him with with words like soft, silky, pretty colors. In fact while in the lands beyond the narrow sea we do have many men including warriors described as dressed in colourful silky clothes in Westeros it's exceptionally rare. Only Renly and maybe Varys are routinely described this way. Tywin and Jaime's armor incidentally is described as very impressive, expensive, imperious maybe. But not colourful. Renly is also described as clean shaven unlike most other men, with long soft hair which he often brushes. Bottom line is Renly unlike any other noble in the book is often described by other nobles with typical modern gay stereotypes, and I can't remember any description of him suggesting stereotypical "macho" or "manly" desires.

It was in an Eddard chapter where the small council discusses the Hand's tourney. Here's a fuller quote: "Littlefinger gave a shrug. “The master of coin finds the money. The king and the Hand spend it.” “I will not believe that Jon Arryn allowed Robert to beggar the realm,” Ned said hotly. Grand Maester Pycelle shook his great bald head, his chains clinking softly. “Lord Arryn was a prudent man, but I fear that His Grace does not always listen to wise counsel.” “My royal brother loves tournaments and feasts,” Renly Baratheon said, “and he loathes what he calls ‘counting coppers.’ “ “I will speak with His Grace,” Ned said. “This tourney is an extravagance the realm cannot afford.” “Speak to him as you will,” Lord Renly said, “we had still best make our plans.” “Another day,” Ned said. Perhaps too sharply, from the looks they gave him. He would have to remember that he was no longer in Winterfell, where only the king stood higher; here, he was but first among equals. “Forgive me, my lords,” he said in a softer tone. “I am tired. Let us call a halt for today and resume when we are fresher.” He did not ask for their consent, but stood abruptly, nodded at them all, and made for the door." My impression is that Renly is quite condescending about Robert's desires and it's not something he personally loves. Jaime and Tywin are Lannisters. They "shit gold". Same for the Targs, it was important for their image, There are many warriors who are described differently, the Cleganes, Stannis, Robert, Lord Beric, Bronn, the Kingsguard etc. All are described as simply dressed. And we're not talking about Renly's armor here though there also Renly is described as caring more about aesthetics than function. He simply buys a lot of colorful soft silk outfits. We also have Stannis saying "What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger, and at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man. That is the sum of my brother Renly, who thinks he ought to be a king. I ask you, why did the gods inflict me with brothers?” Now even considering that Stannis is a bitter old man ranting about Renly that still suggests Renly is hardly a great warrior. Edited to add: And yes I'm applying modern standards, or should I say stereotypes and that's the point, because they are in the book. And various different people repeatedly describe Renly with these modern gay stereotypes.

He was definitely described as big as Robert. In fact Renly looked a lot like a young Robert, before he got fat. And I don't remember Loras as having any influence on Renly at all. In fact while Loras absolutely adored Renly I don't remember Renly taking any special notice of Loras at all in the book. I don't remember Renly saying anything specific about hunting in the book, but if I had to guess what Book Renly would think about it, I think he wouldn't enjoy it much or want to waste his time on it, though if he did it he'd probably be very good at it. I don't remember that from the book and the wiki has no source. The book does have Renly saying about “My royal brother loves tournaments and feasts,” about Robert like it's not something he loves. Then there is “Lord Renly spends more on clothing than half the ladies of the court.” or“They are quite a pair, Stannis and Renly. The iron gauntlet and the silk glove.” or "Even as a boy, Renly had loved bright colors and rich fabrics" All of which looks pretty stereotypical.

I see. Well I do somewhat agree with that. Book Renly is also described as being big and strong, as big as Robert was. And I'm not sure Book Renly would be as influenced by Loras, who practically pushes Renly to declare himself king. That said while Book Renly might be an effective warrior as he's good in everything he does, he's not described as particularly martial or some macho hard man. Not someone who loves a fight. In fact the book plays up this contrast between him and Stannis the hard nosed fighter, and even Robert who loves a good fight, a good drink and a good wench for dessert.

Loras competes in tourneys too. And in RL there are gay soldiers. In fact the ancient Greeks considered gays to be the best soldiers and their elite units were all gay. Don't see how competing and even doing well in tourneys contradicts him being gay. I agree he's very confident. In fact Cat comments that he's too confident as he leaves most of his army behind when he rides to Storm's End. But that doesn't translate to him being a great warrior. Might be the opposite in fact. I'm sure he's confident of being able to father children. Gays can father children too. He might not enjoy it as much as a straight guy, but it's a small price to pay for the iron throne. The fact that Stannis comments on his ability to get Margaery pregnant suggests that him being gay is at least rumored.

I never really got the impression from the books of Renly being particularly macho or as a brave able warrior. He's confident, charismatic, easy going, fun to hang around with, but not aggressive, domineering, or especially war like. In fact this is particularly noticeable in the conversation with Stannis, as the contrast between Stannis the humorless macho warrior and Renly who treats Stannis and his army as a kind of joke. Remember the peach? When he talks about getting Marg pregnant it's more like "I know how to do what I need to do" than "I can't wait to bed her". And that's in response to Stannis questioning whether he knows what to do with a woman. In fact there are gay stereotypes about him in the books too. I mean come on, rainbow guard?

Agree with that. There was just too much of her in the books. She was never an interesting or appealing character, and all the verbiage about Tyrion's cock in the books was easily as tiresome and pointless as any of the sex scenes in the show.

I guess I'm not up to date with all the info. It's surprising given the general tendencies of the show so far.