greensleeves

A Mary Sue is an author-insert, wish fulfillment... which usually what that second plot I described is doing. (Sometimes it's reader wish-fulfillment).

So some people are complaining that Rhaegar not interpreting a prophecy correctly makes the story 'unfulfilling' somehow... ...but that's literally one of the most classic story arcs out there: Character hears a prophecy Character commits all kinds of horrible acts as a result It turns out the character interpreted the prophecy incorrectly (lol hubris) It's a great narrative (and one GRRM is fond of). It also serves as good counterpoint to the most overused, overhyped plot out there: Boy is just an ordinary guy who gets picked on... poor him ... but wait! Turns out boy is actually super special because of prophecy/secret birth/random unearned thing When women are the heroes of this kind of plotline it's called 'Mary Sue'. I'm not sure if Arya will be *the one* who saves humanity from the WW in the books, but having Jon turn out to be a savior figure would be deeply cliche in the worst way. Jon can still be a hero and have a great story arc without being a prophesied savior of humanity. Anyways, now I hope we finally get a War of Three Queens.

Maybe, but that doesn't change Beric's motivations

In the books didn't he give up his life (permanently) to fulfill a promise to Arya (to reunite her with her mother)?

That's my favorite ending note for Rhaegar.

Then maybe TPTWP does something other than defeat the white walkers?

Was that help neutralized when they rose up and started fighting for the other side though?

I don't remember that. I think we see people assume TPTWP would be a Targ because they are the royal house (but of course when the north declares independence the Starks become a royal house). Correct me if I'm wrong.

So was gaining the help of Dany and her forces worth it? How helpful were her forces?

I'm not sure we actually know that. We know a bunch of supposed signs that someone might be TPTWP, but for what that prince is actually supposed to do in any detail? I'm not sure.

This is the important question.

If TPTWP was about killing the night king then... yeah, guess so! Honestly, I'm happy for it to be anyone except Jon (because Rhaegar Targaryen was a trash person who doesn't deserve to have any of his actions even slightly justified) Arya's awesome anyways.

Jon and Dany go together like peanut butter and gasoline. That relationship is not gonna end well imo. If they've made a gross magic baby, it will be one of the cringiest things in the entire series.

Sansa sending Brienne to KL is kinda the biggest f-you to Cersei: "Not only am I not going, but I'm sending Jaime's crush/moral-center"

Okay, there seems to be a lot of miscommunication between us. First off, you seem to be stuck on rescue of Jeyne. When I say Jeyne's main purpose is to motivate Theon, I'm *not* saying her purpose is to motivate Theon to *aid in her rescue* (which is what I think you're implying). Theon's arc in this part of ASOIAF is largely about his own identity (going from Reek back to Theon). The events you cite are actually an example of that: Jeyne's presence serves as a catalyst for the spear wives to influence Theon to escape. Beyond that, I don't know how to clear this up other than a labor-intensive reread. We will have to just disagree. To the second point, I was not trying to involve myself in your conversation about 'rape apology'. I'm only trying to point out that fictional rape being different from real-world rape is highly applicable to *our* conversation. In fiction some characters are more important than others. Minor characters serve different narrative purposes than main ones.