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About LmL

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    ∆ Lucifer means Lightbringer ∆
  • Birthday 03/11/1980

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    in a grove of ash

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  1. Dawn breaks when the sun rises, so.... I mean sometimes it's not important to over-think nature mythology. The sun king turns dark and throws on his cloak of starry wisdom during the Long Night because that is what happens at night in real life. Dawn has to break for the sun to rise. As for crystal, I equate it with ice, like the wall and the Others swords, so... will an Other's sword break Dawn, as the crystal shattered the light? Or is Dawn the crystal, shattering the light as it shatters itself? What did you mean about the duels at the king's pyres? I think I know what you mean, but please expound.
  2. I feel you; plus the mobile website gets really lagged out sometimes. The Faith and the KG both. The Warrior's Sons wear mirror like armor (like the Others) and their sigil is a crystal sword on black - that a picture of an Other sword. High Septon has a weirwood staff, etc. Aegon being anointed by the faith... that's like the fire moon dragon getting lodged in the ice moon, or like the NK knocking up NQ. So, KL works like this: Red Keep = sun. Rhaenys Hill = fire moon )burnt out collapsed former home of dragons), Visenya's Hill = ice moon (white marble sept, Faith, Warrior's Sons). The fire moon burnt in the past, and so did the dragonpit, while the Sept of Baelor is foreshadowed to burn - just as the remaining moon is predicted to burn as well. The burning ice moon figure will be the King of Winter, essentially. I think it's below both, though the entrance is on the Baelor side iirc. I think the wildfire is meant to be seen as running through everything. Certainly I think fiery greenseers were the catalyst for everything, including making the Others. Cross your fingers! I think I was thinking of the quote from Quaithe about people will see your dragons and lust or whatever, her convos with Xaro, etc. In the TV show it is more obvious they want the dragons, I think I was getting that confused a bit. Yes, I have noticed most of this - it's the signature fiery dancers which always pop up at LB forging parties. I haven't mentioned them because then I would have to explain the Undying, and I haven't been ready to do that. Glad you caught this though, you are 100% right. yep this is the same language we saw with the burning wight which Jon later dreams as having his father's face.It's scarecrow / ragman imagery. Yep The big question is the order. The Undying are eternal blue shadows, and that compares well to the Others. They become fiery dancers when lit up by Drogon... does that mean the Others used to be fiery dancers, and will revert to that when burned? You know I am cautious with color symbolism, and no more so than with sunrise. Dawn and sunrise seem to bring all color back into the world, and in any scene the colors might be different, but what is consistent is that dawn brings all color back to a world that had lost it. I think Indigo would be associated with night and sunset, as the trees are called "Shade of the Evening" trees, and we also get a few instances of a "blue dusk." Red also appears at sunrise and sunset. Mostly I associate indigo with blue warlock lips and shade wine, frostbite (blue lips), that sort of thing.
  3. Well the main implication is simply that Azor Ahai was able to go inside the weirwood net, bolstering my claim that he was a greenseer. For the repercussions could be as follows: - yes, as I suggested, it's possible Jon could be reborn with a hitchhiker. This would be going awfully close to Robert Jordan territory, with the main hero hearing the silent advice of a long-dead hero in his head. But it's possible. - it's possible that AA, or some part of him, remained trapped in the weirwood net and became what we think of as the Night's King. The two big clues about the others are that they come from the weirwood trees, and also that Night's King and nights queen were making them. I have a feeling both of these ideas are partly true, and this is one way that works out: NK was / is making the others from inside the weirwood net - I've begun to wonder if perhaps it isn't the nights queen inside the weirwood net, giving rise to the others. I began to compare the idea of Nissa Nissa to a weirwood in this essay, and I'll be expanding on that greatly in the next essay, so perhaps the nights queen is actually some sort of Frozen weirwood with blue blood instead of red, and those blue eyes instead of red. Is there a blue-eyed weirwood somewhere in the heart of Winter? Probably tin foil, but it popped into my head yesterday. - I think this also is telling part of the story of my green zombie Theory. AA and his horned companions going into the wwnet means they were sacrificed to the trees. That's how they went it. They came out perhaps by becoming undead greenseers and skinchangers.But there seems to be two groups - the original nights watch and the original others. AA seems tied to both, but "AA" may be more than one person, and may have come into conflict with the last Hero at some point. Perhaps AA and his crew went into the trees and came out as the others, and a second set of greenseers / skinchangers had to then be killed and resurrected as the Nights Watch to go fight them. - another takeaway is that AA going into the weirwoodnet is kind of the place where the meteor version of the fire of the gods and the burning tree version of the same interact. The place where Lightbringer the magic sword from Essos and AA the hero from Essos meet up with weirwoods and Westeros. The mystery of AA's interaction with the weirwoods is the crux of how these two halves of the story relate to one another.
  4. Well, there is a compelling idea at the root of your speculation: a link between the Proto-Valyrian's and the Others. The pearl of the God Emperor does sound like a white meteor, and the god emperor is a signature Morningstar figure comma because he descended from heaven, and then ascended back to heaven. In many mythologies, the sun is regarded as God the father and the Morning Star as some sort of child of the Sun, and this is how Jesus and his heavenly father are configured. The emperor's from before the long night and before the Bloodstone emperor seem to have those swords of pale fire, such as we see in Dany's dream. I've always found it tempting to link pale fire or white fire with Dawn, though that is still only a hypothesis. The ghost grass which grows all around Asshai is basically like a field of dawn swords, and glow with the souls of the damned, suggesting that these ghost grass Dawn swords are memorializing people who are no longer with us. The fallen empire. Another angle to take is simply to consider at the symbolism of dawn, which for the most part seems to match to icy things of the North... except these links to the great Empire of the Dawn which I mention. The only way all of that symbolism works out is if Dawn is in fact the original ice, but is also some sort of remnants of Great Empire of the Dawn tech from before the long night.
  5. I wonder what @LmL will make of this symbolism?! Ok so I see what you're getting at. That makes a certain amount of sense. I guess on a basic level what i see is a weirwood person - a greenseer - using the dragonglass (fire magic). Just the simple link between the black pond which shows a reflection and obsidian mirrors suggests greenseers using glass candles, I would say. Obsidian, in my opinion, is part of the larger "black ice" symbol, so Bed's Black Ice sword, dipped into the black ice pond, is kind of a double symbol. The black pond does freeze over in ADWD btw.
  6. NO, I think it's just recreating a symbol, so that we can see it - the dragon sword meteor going into the black water symbol. Dany, covered in blood, dips into the 'bottomless,' cold, and black WOTW, and Ned's blood soaked V steel sword is dipped into the "bottomless," cold, and black pond beneath the heart tree. It's the same symbol, i believe, a moon meteor sword dipping into the black water. I wouldn't think there are past / future implications, but then I am not a fan of time travel theories so I might be biased.
  7. Indeed, that's the first thing that leapt to my mind. I like the idea that black mar me could be synonymous with black ice, since ice and marble are usually thought of as white and both are used extensively to convey icy / Others symbolism. That fits well with the iron, i like that @Archmaester_Aemma. The general sequence you've outlined fits well, and it gels with my notion of Qarth representing the pre-LN Planetos. White and green marble heroes - definitely more greenseer talk, and possibly greenseers turning to Others, yes. I wonder if the Others are merely part of the Qarth symbolism or the main part. One thing that's interesting - the Undying seem to represent Others, but they want Danys dragons, and not to kill them, but to use them. Could the others make use of the Dragons? Only if they wighted one right? Of course drogon seems to be the winner in their confrontation, so it's not an out-and-out foreshadowing of the others making a wight dragon... but just the fact that the creatures of blue shadow think they can control and harness the power of a dragon is interesting, when taken in light of the comparison between the undying and the others.
  8. This last bit seems very solid, I don't know what else it could be talking about. Somehow I've never thought about that way, but you've got to be right. One thing about characterizing Qarth as a whole - it is the master of the Jade gates, and the entrance to the Jade Sea, which they dominate. That's all green see metaphor talk, so this is a city which is a gate to the weirwoodnet in some sense. Those pureborn command the navy, now that I recall, so we have the dreaming old men on ancestral wooden thrones who control the Jade (green) see. The only match I can find for red --> grey --> black is this passage, one of my favorites, but I do not know if it's coincidence or not:
  9. Again there are so many examples that is becomes daunting to decipher - so many threes. Fortunately, there is plenty of symbolism in ASOIAF, and for the most part I can simply focus on the things I understand well and avoid the things I don't until they become clear to me. There are always many examples of any given symbolic theme or archetype, so if you miss some scenes or symbols you can still put things together. There are a lot of ways at arriving at similar conclusions, as evidenced by the forum.
  10. Which is why Qarth kind of works well as "Dawn Age Planetos." The dragon incubate in the moon city, after following the comet there (so it's like the comet is striking the moon city). The magicians / wise men seek dragons and summon Dany and the dragons down to Qarth, where they meet the gamut of symbol representations, as we've said. What do you think? A major symbol of Qarth that nobody has come up with a convincing explanation for are the three walls of the city.
  11. Yeah, he wasn't saying it was (nor was I) - he was drawing a comparison to Vaes Tolorro as a place which has an obvious description (some kind of moon) vs Qarth, which seems a jumble of symbolism and is not characterized as a whole in such an obvious way.
  12. Thank, I conflated the two. It's the Pureborn scene that is loaded with symbolism - the men in the wooden thrones of their ancestors look to be asleep, something like that. Yeah, when you label a city a moon, that at least gives you a starting point. My best attempt at characterizing Qarth would be "GEotD time capsule." I think when Martin wrote AGOT, he may not have had the name "great empire of the dawn" in his head, but he did have the gemstone-eyed Valyrian looking people and rumors of people having tamed dragons in Asshai, so the "proto-Valyrians from Asshai" idea was def in mind when he wrote this, I would say. So, Qarth is like the last surviving time capsule of stuff from the old world, and thus everything from the Dawn Age is represented, perhaps - Others, greenseers, the 13, people who sail the jade see, and so on.
  13. Yes, this is a great question. It's one of the many reasons color symbolism makes me greensick. A blue-lipped milk man? He sounds a helluva lot like a warlock! What do we know of House Fell? Well, one of the Fells was a member of the Kingsguard (so that ice symbolism) during the Dance who stayed loyal to Aegon II Targaryen. And Ser Thurgood Fell is one of the men who stayed loyal to Aerys during Robert's Rebellion, and he was slain by Robert himself at Summerhall: Thurgood's son promptly became one of Robert's men. They even have a crescent moon on their shield, above a field of spruce trees (according to semi-canon sources). Ok, so I've noticed this scene too - the moon and tree sigil suggests the fallen Fell as a fallen moon meteor and a greenseer - his sigil is like Dunnk's, with the shooting star and tree. It's a diagram of the thunderbolt --> burning tree myth. But since he falls into the icy lake, this is about a greenseer turning into an Other (you will recall the Other's armor looks like the surface of an icy lake, and when Varamyr suffers true death, it's described as plunging through an icy lake). Bran's dreamers impaled on icy spires, that's the same idea I would think. Hypothermia works just as well as frostbite to symbolize Otherization. There's a bit more, but the point is, the story of Harwood Fell seems to be about ice moon stuff and Others - but as you say, the pale skin and blue lips sound like Warlock stuff. I would say that's more evidence that the Undying are indeed symbolizing the Others.
  14. also re: @Archmaester_Aemma: good stuff guys. Isn't there also a group of 13 exalted individuals who sit in old wooden thrones belonging to their ancestors? That's one place you might go to look for sea dragons, as Dany does (meaning Targ boats). Then we have the walls: grey, red, and black. I agree the milkmen thing sounds icy, and all the Warlock stuff too, but the walls and other things might not be. It's confusing, and there is (as Durran says) a lot of GEotD heritage clues lying around. One imagines some amount of that old world culture was preserved in Qarth. I guess what I am not sure of is Qarth itself. There are lots of identifiable symbols inside the city - too many, almost. Ghost grass is growing and glass candles are burning. Warlocks, the 13, Xaro Xoan Daxos. But what is the context? What does Qarth itself represent?