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About LmL

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    ∆ Lucifer means Lightbringer ∆
  • Birthday 03/11/1980

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    in a grove of ash

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  1. The forums just ate my response to this. Sigh. This is getting pretty damn old. I really wish this forum worked, like at all. It kills me. I like the people here much better than on Reddit, and reddit's two day cycle isn't ideal for these giant essays... but goddammit I do not know if I can handle one more lost response due to the fact that this forum crashes at least once a day. I mean, they updated this thing more than a year ago and it is worse than ever. I don't know of another good forum that has a wide slice of the fandom in it. Smaller forums with like 50 people aren't that fun. What to do? I wish this forum just worked.
  2. That's a bingo. There is much doorway symbolism around the weirwoods, absolutely. I would say they are real trees, but not like other trees, There is something fundamentally different about them, it would seem. I think they might be meant to be seen as half-dead or living dead trees. Wight trees instead of white trees. I do think the wargs are George's version of werewolves, and some have noticed the "weir" in weirwood could be read as were, making the weirwooods man-trees as werewolves are man-wolves. I look at Jon as an ice and fire synthesis, best expressed by the idea of frozen fire or black ice, and I believe that this line of symbolism includes Valyrian steel and dragonglass. Jon is like fire tempered by ice and frozen. He can still burn though, as dragonglass can. ASOS: And then a bit later when Jon considers Stannis's offer: And when Jon is elected LC... his token is... Jon dreams of a sword. Which one? His father's sword, a black sword named Ice. Black Ice. He dreams of wielding a burning red sword and defending the Wall, and in that dream, he is armored in black ice. Not sure if Jon is going to get Valyrian steel armor, but I think it's clear that black ice and frozen fire are important symbols for Jon.
  3. That's cool FFR, I will brush up on the Daphne myth. That sounds like a good fit. As for Rhaegar, he might not drip with Hades symbols, but I would say that the Azor Ahai reborn archetype that he plays in to IS saturated with Hades. Ned shows it better, as @sweetsunray has demonstrated (you are familiar with her work on Hades and Persephone, right?)
  4. Have you read my Green Zombie series? You probably like it alot, a lot of the idea you just mentioned are in there, and I also arrived at Bran as the summer king and Jon the winter king. I wouldn't worry about warning anyone here to careful though. We've all heard that before. Also, I sincerely hope you aren't implying my analysis is anything but tightly correlated to the text and the story HE is telling. One could almost read your words as an implication that I am not doing so, and that would be unfortunate.
  5. Nice work BT! Yes, it's another fire moon / ice moon deal, with the fire moon being killed and drowned and the ice moon living on. But Cersei also hears Melara's voice haunting her, or sees her accusing eyes, one or the other, right? That's good too. So.. the ice moon queen marrying a garth... what's that about?
  6. Yes, it's wonderful, I just like to bust your (metaphorical) balls when you refer to the prologue for like the fifth time in any given conversation, lol... Yeah, that's really solid - getting a red hand while skinning a buck is skinchanging a tree to become a horned lord, something like that. I think the skin of an antlered creature basically = the weirwood, so that's how you get red hands, is by going into a ww. Very nice. That corroborates the notion of him climbing the tree as a the greenseer climbing the heavenly ladder. Arya also threatens to kill Jaquen here as his hand is "bitten" by the weirwood. That's a good match to the catspaw being bitten by weirwood Cat, very nice. I will use that for sure. The hat-tip list grows one longer! We should chat about Arya more, the dark hearted blood child and ghost in harrenhall who commands Jaquen. I'd like to figure out exactly what is going on here. It kind reminds me how Stoneheart commands the brotherhood. Arya, as a ghost, is like the ghost of a cotf in a sense, which is kind of like dead Cat as a tree spirit. Defnintiely agree about that Tyrion library stuff - I think you mentioned some of that or we discussed some of that when we first caught on to the "send a dog to kill a dog" idea about infiltrating the wwnet in those first Winterfell scenes. He stole knowledge of dragons and the changing of the seasons, a clue in and of itself about meteor dragons changing the seasons, the comet = the sword that slays the season, etc. As for Dany, I think I see your point. I think the burning of that place is akin to lighting ice on fire, the ultimate destiny of the ice moon and the king of winter. That's why the Undying burn like old parchment or whatever, just like the wights. Blue shadows and all that. Yes, that seems right, and there's a good chance George is thinking of the DNA helix, Jacob's Ladder, and that type of thing. I like the idea about always taking the right door turning Dany's trip into a spiral... it makes sense. I mentioned to you that the HOTU is effectively a "shadow tower," being a palace of shadows, and having a non-physical tower which Dany seems to climb but which is not visible form the outside (it's a low, flat building). This is why this place confuses me, symbolically - the Undying seem like such clear parallels to the Others, but the shadow tower and serpentine stairs symbols are dragons and darkness... and the description of it: Anyway I am just not totally sure what is happening here. I'm also not exactly sure what the shade trees and warlock wine represent in the context of the weirwoods and the ice / fire dichotomy. Love that song, love that convo we had, and love what Martin did with the absorbing of the fool spirit in that scene. That goes hand in hand with the repeated pattern of the weirwood women drinking the king's blood... and that's another reason why we can definitely count Melisandre as a prime example of this archetype, with her awesome scene with Cressen, and her talk of Kingsblood. I didn't use the Sansa Dontos scene in this episode, but the skin of wine with legs idea pertains to AA the sacrificed fool, whose blood is poured out to be imbibed, like Christ and the communion. Exactly. Yeah, he gave Jon his red smile. It's pretty great. And into the wolf he goes, the white wolf with the red smile. I follow. What maester sacrificing a woman? No, that's interesting. I didn't give that much thought, it just popped up as a link between Asha and Osha. That joke TV show Renly made about AA the salted ham is more right than he or D&D knew! This might be a preview of Jon, waking in his own bonfire. or more symbolic, Jon waking inside a wolf that looks like a burning tree. That's wild. I have always tended to stick with the 3EC being Bloodraven, but since I am seeing hidden figures in the wwnet, i suppose I should be open minded. It's hard to discern gender, because it speaks with a crow's voice. I do not suspect Bran or I or anyone else knows the difference between male and female crow calls, heh. One of my favorite quotes and scenes, no doubt... The tree whispers and stars stir because the weirwoods are star trees full of starry wisdom. It matches with Dany's ADWD chapter, where the stars whisper in Quaithe's voice and share starry wisdom. Dany has soooooo many weird greenseer parallels like that. Heck, the green grass of the Dothraki green see speaks whispers to her in visionary form and the voices of the past... haha. Good one! That's our shadow tower. So, the rising ash = a weirwood, as i laid out last time. But the rising ash can also appear with rising smoke - the dark, black smoke that coils like a serpent. We saw that at the barn with Arya: It might be that we are supposed to se the white tree with a black shadow, or as a white and black tree growing from the same event. Not sure. But the point is we get the white ash = ww symbol, and right next to it or in place of it, the black snake smoke symbol that matches the HOTU and the shadow tower and the Shadowbaby towering above Davos. I want to do a more detailed analysis of this whole scene, but it requires me to talk about the ice side of things, which I am not ready to do yet. But did you notice that the broken branch symbol often gets thrown into the important symbolic fires? Thanks! We need to revisit the Hodor / Bran scene on the hill with the wights. Yes, absolutely. That's the idea of Oathkeeper being both black Ice and waves of night and blood. And since V steel probably requires blood magic... it's frozen fire and frozen blood. And don't forget this awesome scene... I mentioned this one in the green zombies series. I think this whole scene is about Jon, the horned lord nightswatch brother who will die and go into the tree-colored wolf. These NW brothers are going into wolves as well by being consumed by wolves. The rest of the highlighted stuff should rings bells for you, the shadow wolves sliding through pools, all the rag symbolism and tree symbolism... I am not sure I would equate the black pond with the ice moon, unless we mean the black ice in the middle of the ice moon. This black pond is one in the same with the black ice symbols, and PKJ's find about Cat seeing herself in Oathkeeper as paralleling the ww looking at its reflection in the dark mirror black pond backs this up. This is the black see, the dragonglass see. I think the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice is a better ww / ice symbol, but I am not close-minded on this either. Thanks for all the great feedback and help with this essay! You helped be see where I need to slice out material for next time... this essay was once even longer, people, if you can believe that. I was trying to talk about cat woman in this essay too, and it was too much. Anyway, I'm for bed, @GloubieBoulga, I will reply to you tomorrow.
  7. Yeah that was a clever one by George huh... plus the "ashes in your eyes" bit, that was a LOL. That's a sly parallel with Maeker... but you might be right. The black crown with fiery red gold is perfect - that's the implication of the black crown, that it can catch on fire like a coal or like dragonglass or maybe v steel. Sweet. I am going to break down that trial by seven in about 2 episodes to get all the Dunk / greenseer clues (gallows knight, horse named thunder, that tree / star sigil, etc) so maybe I can slip this one in there. So, who's the winner out of all this? Are you saying Maekar because Baelor's death led to him and his line taking the throne? Or would Dunk be the winner because he lived and won the fight?
  8. Wow! Only a book and a half through and you're hanging out here huh? I assume you started as a show watcher? Well, nice to have you and thanks for the contribution. And yes, the Thor - Oak connection is probably something Martin would be thinking about since he seems to be using tree lore. Oak and ash are the two most prominent in Norse myth, so it figures. I know the birch tree has some good mythology, right? I haven't taken the time to look into all the various white trees, though that might not be a bad idea. You're right that we are told the children carved the faces - though Jon recalls both the children and the FM carving face son the trees, interestingly. I am actually suggesting a slightly heretical idea, that the children did not carve faces on the trees until man came, and specifically Azor Ahai and his crew, who may have started off as "green men," whatever those turn out to be. George says that the Isle of faces is coming to the fore near the end, so we should find out what's up with them. Anyway, you are right about the canon, but I am actually proposing an alternate theory, essentially. It could also be that the children carved the faces in response to Azor Ahai, or to facilitate him. The main thing I am proposing is that the face carving is tied to the Long Night meteors called down by Azor Ahai, and by Azor Ahai's desire to enter the weirwoodnet.
  9. Thanks for the read and the comment! I'll slip this answer in before tackling the longer ones. I agree - my list of weirwood women is by no means complete. This sucker ran super long as it is, and I have saved a bunch more of this stuff for the next episode. That one will focus on the cat-woman symbolism of these burning tree women, which is quite strong and probably has something to do with children of the forest (with their cat's eyes) of perhaps the Tiger Woman of the Bloodstone Emperor, or both. I want to save that for next essay but you get the point - there are more. Lyanna is one, certainly. I primarily focused on the fire associated ones, because I have yet to introduce my ideas about the Others, the ice moon, ice symbolism in general. I mentioned that I see the moon maidens / weirwood maidens either aligning to ice or fire, with the exception of one or two who transition between the two. Lyanna would seem to be a good fit for an icy maiden, with her primary symbol being the blue winter rose. However, I do wonder about the idea of her (and Brandon) having "wolf blood," and how this is associated with having a hot temper. Not sure how that works exactly. However the blue rose would seem to make her the icy variety of maiden. I noticed the bloody tears from her statue and the Knight of the Laughing Tree symbols, though I missed the white dress spattered with gore. That's a great catch! I will jot that down on my list of hat tips to give at the appropriate time. The stone statue is also a good catch. It's possible that we should think of petrified weirwood as being ice - associated, since Nagga's ribs are called "pale stone," the same phrase used for the Dawn meteor ("a pale stone of magical powers," and the "Palestone Tower" at Starfall). You read my last one, In a Grove of Ash, right? that's really a set up to this one. The part I am thinking of is the part where I show how many times weirwoods have been associated with the moon. If there was indeed two moons at one time, and if I am right to think about them as being associated with ice and fire, respectively, then what I think is going on is that the weirs can be used to represent either moon. For example, the living weirs primarily look like burning trees, but then we get the one in the Varamyr prologue.. The Others are called pale shadows and white shadows many times. Other things which are white or pale shadows are Ghost and the Kingsguard, and the KG are basically a symbolic proxy for the Others... while Ghost is something more complicated. But this weirwood tree, it's a pale shadow armored in ice, so that's clear enough - the others wear ice armor, and Dany dreams of melting troops armored in ice via dragonflame in her dream in ASOS. Jon is also armored in black ice in his Azor Ahai dream, but then Jon is many ways is like a black parallel to the Others, like a long lost brother. In any case, this tree is nor armored in black ice, but rather it is a pale shadow armored in ice, so that basically is the description of an Others. We get another description of the Others in this same paragraph - the night was "white as death," with "pale thin" clouds which dance - the Others dance with Waymar and are thin and slim and ghostly, like these thin clouds. Finally, a thousand stars watch coldly, like the cold star eyes of the Others, who are called watchers. So. It's like a portrait of the Others in the sky, and the weirwood is a portrait of the Others on the ground. Interestingly, Varamyr, after leaving Thistle's body and going through the dying process, experiences some interesting things. He first spends a moment inside this pale shadow armored in ice weirwood - that's interesting, right? - then he's borne on a cold wind... and then: And now a reminder of the appearance of the armor of the Others, from the AGOT prologue: It's ice armor that looks the surface of a lake or pond, so, that's a frozen lake or pond. Anyway. Varamyr plunges through the icy pond after seeing through an Other-tree, then ends up in a one-eyed wolf, almost like a cold Odin / greenseer symbol. The point of all of this is that the entrance to the weirwoodnet seems to symbolize the fire moon. The red door. But the exit seems to be cold. @ravenous reader and I have developed this idea a bit; she also associates the Others with the 'back door' and in the arsehole. And by the way, RR, comets and meteors are sometimes called "star shit," so, the Others with their cold star eyes fit the bill as a cold star shit stream. Gross. Look what you've done to my beautiful symbolism. Ha! So, Harlaw's Book, the weirwoods and weirwood maidens have an ice and fire dichotomy going on, as do many things in ASOIAF. Lyanna would seem to be the cold type, so I will discuss her some time in the future after I have gotten into ice symbolism on the podcast. It's unbelievable how many things there are to write about - I have a list of drafts and essays and plans for essays that all need to get written and put out, and I have to finish my greenseer series so I can get to the Others... I'm doing this as fast as i can but I can only put out about one of these monsters a month. I am one of those who is fine with the delay for TWOW, sorry to say... gives me more time to get to the Others before that books comes out and shows us a ton of stuff about the Others. Cheers!
  10. Your knowledge is encyclopedic! I suppose scarlet counts for red, especially since she is called the Red Queen. She's definitely a fire moon symbol - her duel with Sunfyre (the sun) and Vhagar, a hoary dragon (meaning white, meaning probably the ice moon) works well in that context. Rhaenys becomes a burnt corpse woman, which is Nissa Nissa post-LB forging. Also, the fire moon / ice moon pattern is strongly expressed (if it is valid) in Rhaenys and Visenya, and this is continued here. Rhaenys sister-wife of Aegon the C is the fire moon, just as the Dragonpit is on the hill of Rhaenys (a burnt out and collapsed dome which used to harbor dragons), while Visenya is the ice moon, riding her hoary white dragon and with the white marble Sept of Baelor on her hill. Vhagar is ridden by Aemond One Eye, who wears a star sapphire in his eye, making him an ice magic / ice dragon type person. The blue north star of the constellation ice dragon is either the eye of the dragon or the rider, and when Aemond rides Vhagar, it's pretty spot on for the ice dragon. Meanwhile we have another Rhaenys, riding a red dragon and becoming a burnt corpse. I believe the fight proceeds with Sunfyre and Meleys colliding, a la the sun and fire moon alignment. Oh - and look. Meleys. Meliai. There it is again!! It's so damn consistent, the fire moon symbolism. Mel the red woman and Meleys the red queen, both fire moon maidens / Nissa Nissa maidens. Mel is even called Stannis's red queen... So there you go. Very nice! The Meleys name is just such a dead ringer for all the other Meliai references with the burning tree moon maidens. I'll have to find a way to include this and the but about oathkeeper being like the black pond in the next episode or two, I wish I had caught those in time for this episode. Oh well, you can't get everything. The black pond catch really would have been good in this one. Now to go back for Ravenous and Gloubie's posts... pray for me, that the Westeros server doesn't eat my long response... ye gods, old and new, I beseech thee...
  11. Oh yeah!! Most definitely, great call! Oathkeeper's "waves of night and moon blood" make it just like the black pool. You are the shit.
  12. Yes, I will have to deal with him and the Fisher Queens and Silver Sea and all that. I talked about that a bit a long time ago in a westeros post following up on the Great Empire of the Dawn.
  13. Yes, but I haven't explained RR's sea / seer pun in the official podcasts, so I am holding off on that line of symbolism until I do. But yeah, the falling and drowning moon becomes the mermaid / drowned goddess, that much I have asserted already. That's why there is so much lunar symbolism among the courtesans of Bravos, who float by on pleasure barges.
  14. You are putting your finger on an obvious tension between fire and weirwoods, and rightly so. This is a 'problem' for not just Mel, but all the symbolism of the ww as a burning tree. In real life, fire kills trees. But all the mythical world trees like Yggy and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden are things which transfer the fire of the gods to man. So, simultaneously, there is a sense in which the weirwoods hate fire, and another in which they are on fire. The thing is, they don't really conflict - the weirwoods do not seem to like being invaded by greenseers, imo. They do not like acting as a conduit for the fire. They might be doing so heroically and sacrificially, containing the minotaur in their trap for us or mitigating the toxic presence of the meteors or both, or they might being simply being raped and forced against their, like a host to a parasite. One thing to notice is that Mel does not ever burn weirwood. She has Stannis or other people do it. Mel herself parallels the burning tree, she doesn't create one. She is one. But anyway... you'll see what I am getting at, even if you care to reinterpret the conclusion. Hilariously, @ravenous reader and I were chatting last night and she was reacting to your bawdy talk, and thought you might have been drinking. Nailed that one, RR, lol. You were hanging with Jim or Jack, that's all good baby baby. here's the link, there aren't that many comments so you should be able to find the one about Val. Not a tone said, just someone else noticing her as a potential ww maiden.
  15. There is definitely some transformation going on, whether or not there were 2 distinct moons or one moon with a dual nature. I always make my opinion up based in my best interpretation of symbolism, and that leads me to two moons, but the more important thing is the ice / fire dichotomy which runs through the entire series. The moons are just a manifestation of that. And again, in any scenario, some moon maidens definitely turn from fire to ice, with Sansa being the most obvious one. I am curious to see if Mel remains fiery or turns into something colder, myself.