J. Stargaryen

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  1. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Apparently that wasn't clear to everyone. I conclude that it's probably not meant to be a question. Certain things in the series are presented to us as mysteries. Who murdered Jon Arryn? Who is Jon Snow's mother? Whether or not Lyanna was really at the ToJ is not one of these things. That doesn't rule out the possibility that it is a mystery, but it's not something anyone in the text questions. So, no, we're not talking about a matter of opinion here. At least not in what I was describing. I do not accept what you claim to know to be true based on Ned's waking recollection, as truth myself. Frankly, I find your arguments on that topic to be poorly reasoned. You simply cannot claim with any certainty that, Ned should have thought X. Which means that your basis for extrapolating GRRM's meaning is also uncertain, at best. Why are you assuming she was at the tower her entire absence? Sure, poll results, and/or popular opinion, are not the same thing as textual evidence. I get that. But textual evidence is what those results and opinions tend to be based upon. Which means that the views reflect a judgement, and/or evaluation, of the applicable textual evidence. So I don't think it makes sense to just toss aside that information. Nor am I suggesting to accept the results and opinions as absolute truths. In any case, ignoring the information won't make it go away. As for what you describe as evidence, to me it looks a lot like speculation and assumptions. Or maybe it's the other way around. Hey wolfmaid, you're doing it again.
  2. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    First of all, apologies for the delayed reply. I was about halfway through responding when I lost my original reply a few days ago. Then I got caught up in a couple of other discussions, and haven't had much free time since. Anyway... Which makes perfect sense, since he was awoken before (or after) he went inside the tower. The idea that this monumental fight took place outside of an empty tower seems really odd to me, narratively speaking. I get that GRRM likes to play with expectations and whatnot, but he's still a writer. From a storytelling perspective, it just seems obvious to me that the combatants were fighting over what was in the tower. You can call it a table, but where are its legs? Okay, then why focus in on this very narrow, textually unsupported interpretation? You're putting an awful lot of faith in an interpretation -- a guess, in truth -- that is only supported by speculation. This, despite many months of searching for something more. From memory, you had said something like, There's nothing that requires Lyanna to have been at the ToJ. Which I read as you meaning that the text places her there, but that the text might be misleading. What gap? Ned has a dream about the tower that features Lyanna. He hears her scream while outside of the tower. Again, it's a gotcha if he reveals that Lyanna wasn't in the tower without providing any evidence beforehand that that was the case. I'm somewhat surprised that this is a debatable point. I mean, author says X, never contradicts X, then reveals X is not true. How is that not a gotcha? My guess is that your instinct will be to reply that, he doesn't really say X. Except that he does. Because she's there in the dream, and the dream is in the text. So the question becomes, does that mean she was actually there? If she wasn't, as you and some others contend, there should be some evidence (re: not speculation) suggesting that she wasn't. I'm not going to claim to be an authority on how GRRM writes, but I don't think it's controversial to state that he seems like he leaves clues about the mysteries in his books. I believe we've been over this before. There were clues in the text about LF & Lysa. You not seeing the clues ≠ no clues. So you're not talking about the same scenario I am. Yes, there is a big gap in the data re: Lyanna's whereabouts before and during the rebellion. However, the one data point we have places her at the ToJ at the end of the war. I've got a suggestion on how you could convince others. Support your case with textual evidence instead of speculation. For the record, I find the argument that Arthur is Jon's father to be much more compelling than the argument that Lyanna was not at the ToJ. Because that theory doesn't effectively end with the question: Hey, what if Rhaegar isn't the father? At least not in my opinion, but I'm probably a bigger fan of the idea than most RLJers.
  3. map matters

    I'm familiar with the quote. The LoIaF maps in the app place it after the three forks converge into one. I used to think it was on the Green Fork, until someone suggested otherwise and I did some research, and then discussed it with @Rhaenys_Targaryen. I'd still like to hear from @Ran on this.
  4. map matters

    Do you know who told HBO that the Ruby Ford was on the Green Fork?
  5. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Yes. But to be clear, we're talking in terms of likelihood. Good. That was my intention. Not quite. Leaving aside the difference between readers and "fandom" as I defined up thread, let's consider the differences in the theories. We are explicitly told that the identity of Jon's mother is a mystery. In solving that mystery, we are presented with the twist that Ned is not Jon's father. On the other hand, the location of Lyanna's death is never presented as a mystery. We're simply given that information in Ned's fever dream, with nothing to contradict it. That's not at all what happened, but okay. As I said above, people realized Ned was not the father when they figured out the identity of Jon's mother. Which was explicitly presented to the audience as a mystery, unlike the information we're given about the location of Lyanna's death. Since what you actually said was wrong, let's focus on the idea which I believe you were trying to get across. That a small minority can see something that the great majority misses. I enthusiastically agree with this sentiment. If you think this contradicts my position, you've misunderstood my point. This "vast majority" point I made does not exist in a vacuum. It works in tandem with, or in addition to, what I see as the total lack of evidence supporting the hypothesis that Lyanna died somewhere other than the ToJ. I mean, if someone found actual evidence -- re: not speculation -- that Lyanna died elsewhere, I certainly wouldn't claim that it didn't count simply because most people didn't think to question it in the first place. This is really interesting coming from you. How many times have you invoked your supposed ability to understand the subtleties of this series? And then contrasted that with RLJers, who just went for the obvious answer, according to you. Hey, remember what I was saying just above?
  6. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Fandom does not necessarily include every person who read the books. I don't know the exact definition, but it seems to imply some sort of participation, usually online. For example, there is a large Sherlock fandom, I'm told. I've seen every episode of that show, yet I'm not a member of this fandom. From the link you provided: If you can't figure out how or why this is different from what I said, then perhaps you should have read the link before you posted it. Agreed. And if you're implying I said anything like that, you're wrong.
  7. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Not my fault that you confused "(in universe) reality" with "the text." Nor does it put her anywhere else. Oh no, I'm doing it again! And this close to Halloween. I'm just asking for trouble. I feel like you're contradicting yourself here. You claim to be familiar with my references to polls, and/or majority opinion, etc., but then you appear to be ignorant about how I apply that information. I've explained this before, so I'd appreciate if you'd pay attention this time. Poll results and the like are not evidence, per se. They are, however, indicators of how the fandom is interpreting and evaluating evidence. Extrapolating to our discussion, the fact that Lyanna's place of death isn't even a question for the vast majority of fandom indicates to me that it's probably not meant to be one. My gods, "his audience" simply means the people who read the books. Way to read into something that wasn't there. Though I do suppose that is one of your talents. As for the rest, it's a gotcha! if Lyanna is revealed to have died somewhere other than the ToJ, without any clues indicating she had. So far, the only evidence we have places her death at the tower. I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Quibble with my phrasing if you like, but I stand by the opinion.
  8. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    She's there in Ned's dream. Ned's dream is a part of the text. Therefore the text places her there. This isn't a matter of opinion, or interpretation, but a matter of fact. You can dispute the reliability of the text via Ned's dream, but to say that the text doesn't place her at the tower is simply wrong. Good thing that's exactly what we have. That's one way of saying that the text places her at the ToJ. --- As far as I know, Lyanna's place of death is not even a debate anywhere else in the fandom. The reason I bring this up is because, it doesn't even seem to have registered with the vast majority of hardcore fans that this is something we're meant to question. Why is that? If GRRM meant it to be a mystery, he did a piss poor job communicating that to his audience. At this point in time, the revelation that Lyanna didn't die at the ToJ would be an out-of-nowhere gotcha! to the vast majority of the readers. I don't think that is how GRRM works. I really think this is one of those cases where you guys asked, Hey, what if Lyanna didn't die at the ToJ? And then spent many moons convincing yourselves that she didn't. What I find telling, though, is that you haven't managed to convince anyone else.
  9. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    How many times does the text have to place Lyanna at the ToJ before it counts?
  10. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Unless it's already been addressed and I missed it, in which case I apologize, I think the Brienne-at-Bitterbridge comparisons to Lyanna-as-the-KotLT are possibly missing the bigger picture. Which is, when you see someone in a knight's armor, you automatically assume that it's a man. In other words, you hear and see what you want, or expect, to hear and see.
  11. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    To hide their identity. For which it has already been established that Lyanna had the strongest motive.
  12. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Mind blown. As it pertains to our discussion, I believe Elio and Linda have stated that GRRM would correct them when they had incorrectly filled in the blanks. To answer your question, though. No. I think the fact that any such details were approved by GRRM speaks for itself. Further, whoever came up with the "fact" that Lyanna practiced jousting, I find it to be too coincidental to just dismiss. Who thinks like what? Do you mean the part where I list a couple of clues pointing towards a certain conclusion, and assume that since those clues exist, the hypothesized conclusion they point towards is true? I would guess a lot of people think exactly like that, tbh. No, quite the opposite. I'm trying to understand the possible explanations for why things do exist, in this series. And I think the better explanation is that these things all fit together. Remind me never to send you to the market. Oh, I don't think those things are separate. I do think GRRM would understand the implications of such a question. This isn't some relatively obscure fan theory about symbolism. The identity of the KotLT is one of the mysteries that is laid out as such in the books. Not only would he be aware of the theory because he's likely been told that it exists on several occasions, but he would know that Lyanna was one of the only candidates to begin with when he wrote it. And knowing that, he still wrote about her being a good rider, and how riding was the greatest part of jousting, etc. And, yes, he still approved this bit of info in the app stating that she had practiced jousting.
  13. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    I don't believe I'm twisting your argument. You suggested that Elio and Linda asked GRRM if Lyanna had practiced jousting and that GRRM replied "sure, why not." In other words, the fact that Lyanna had practiced jousting did not exist until Elio and Linda invented and GRRM okayed it. Because that's what it seems to like you're saying, -- "sure, why not." -- and I find that ridiculous. On the other hand, if you're saying that GRRM made Lyanna a fantastic rider, who practiced at jousting, but who was not the KotLT, I find that to be highly unlikely. Because why would he make those first two things true if the third one wasn't? Was he aiming for pointless coincidence? I don't get it. You said GRRM probably didn't intend the fandom to go "apey" over Lyanna as the KotLT. And I'm saying that if that was actually his intention, he erred. Correct. However, something that often gets taken for granted around here is how these popular beliefs came to be so. The answer is simple: they made the most sense to the most people. I agree that this is true, as well. However, it's also true that it works the other way. There are plenty of contrarians who disagree with the most popular theories precisely because they are the most popular.
  14. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Your argument is that GRRM said "sure, why not" to something that wasn't true? I don't understand why people think he would have handled this Q&A so much differently than he's handled himself in the SSMs. After all, a lot of the info contained therein comes from GRRM answering a question, or questions, that someone has asked. There are some problems with this statement. First, the idea that the clue itself is important is not really true. The majority of the people who have an opinion about the identity of the KotLT think it's Lyanna, and they were able to come to this conclusion without that clue. Next, the idea that all important clues must have been included in the text so far is not necessarily true. We're getting Lady Lance in TWoW, which looks to a lot of people like a clue that Lyanna was the KotLT. Let's think that through. GRRM didn't want people to go so "apey" over Lyanna, so he repeatedly told us that jousting is mostly about horsemanship, and also repeatedly told us that Lyanna was a great rider. Brilliant strategy, that.
  15. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    No one is dancing around anything. I just don't think your question made any sense. If GRRM provides info, why does it have to be in the form of a POV? My understanding of how the app came to be is that the character bios it features were originally intended for TWoIaF, but they took up too much room, and/or used up too much of the word count. So an app was created to house that info.