J. Stargaryen

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  1. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Right, I definitely think he dropped Jon+Arya a long time ago. Probably had something to do with the ages of the characters. But it's kind of an interesting note about where his head was at, back when he was putting the story together.
  2. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Fwiw, GRRM intended Jon and Arya to end up together back in the early 90s.
  3. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    I wasn't disputing that Ned had been taught how to joust, only that he was new to the lists, unless I'm forgetting something, and thus could have been considered a beginner himself.
  4. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    I think we're getting crossed up here. Bael the Bard was a KBtW, and before that a raider. So we can say with confidence that he was in fact a leader, fighter and musician. I agree with the bold. And I think there's a good chance you're right in stating that there are certain parallels, or connections, to HH there. Did Rhaegar sing Jenny's song at HH, or does that song possibly give us some clue about the nature of R&L's relationship? However, I think Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar's song was much stronger than Arya's. If the song had made Arya sniffle, I'm pretty sure she would've called it stupid.
  5. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    And the books connect jousting to horsemanship. It's a little bit surprising that someone with your imagination and knowledge of the series would dispute such a simple and obvious connection. I was going to say the same thing @sweetsunray said, but she beat me to it. I think most of us would agree that Arya's a fairly good proxy for Lyanna, but I don't think you can just automatically assume that as with Arya, so with Lyanna. In other words, it's a good guide, but not a definitive one. Sure, it's a lot of beginners luck, as much as something like that exists in a fantasy novel. But that's even true if the knight is Ned. And the story is ridiculously improbable to begin with. After their squires attack Howland, those three knights end up as champions, and the knight just happens to defeat them all? For reasons already addressed in this thread, I think it's reasonable to assume that Lyanna received at least some informal training with a lance. So I'm not sure why you'd expect me to begin with the premise that she definitely received none. I feel like these points were already addressed by sweetsunray. I think Lyanna is featured a bit more than her brothers. She's the one who saves Howland from the squires. And the reason she has the best motive to hide her identity is because she wouldn't otherwise be allowed to participate in the joust. You're entitled to your opinion.
  6. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Not at all. Yeah, but earlier you seemed to be implying that wolf blooded was the opposite of hypocrite, or that being wolf blooded would preclude the possibility of being hypocritical. Unless I am mistaken. Since Ned defines wolf blooded as being wild, I wouldn't agree with that assertion. I see what you're saying, but I think you're pinning a lot on the idea that Arya is basically Lyanna come again. Though I'm sure you'll draw different conclusions, it might be of some use to you. Sure, this is all true. But another version of "it's all in where you're standing" might be that consensual sex between Bael and Baelette is still rape by Northern standards. After all, he took the girl without her father's permission. Sure, if Bael was cruel like Joff, or a creep like Marillion. But, while Joff is a handsome prince, he's also a coward. And Marillion is a singer, but not a leader or fighter. Perhaps Bael was cruel, but I doubt he was a coward. And given his maiden-bait status he probably wasn't all that creepy. Yes, tantalizing indeed. But I have serious doubts that woman is Baelette, based on the apparent chronology of those visions. I think the interpretations are pretty reasonable, even though I don't exactly agree. For example, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Lyanna's Sansa-like nature. She might be more like Arya, but she cried during Rhaegar's song. That doesn't seem like something Arya would do.
  7. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    All due respect, but this sure looks like a case of missing the forest for the trees. It appears to me that you're focusing on this one detail from this one example, and ignoring the bigger picture which connects Lyanna, horsemanship and jousting. Brandon losing to arguably the best jouster in the 7K at the time doesn't seem like much of an argument, since the KotLT didn't square off against a jouster of Rhaegar's (or Barristan's, or Arthur's) skill. From what I see it seems like you're really trying to sell this idea about "open" training, but I'm not buying. Especially since we know that Lyanna would resort to secret training if she really wanted to, as she did with "swords." Right, but how often do the books seem to show the "opposite" of the most popular theory? Maybe I'm making too much out of the use of the word opposite, but to me it looks like you're arguing that the majority of the people who have opinions on this got completely turned around somehow. To look at it another way-- in your opinion, to what end has GRRM written: that horse riding is most important part of jousting that Lyanna was a great rider given her a starring role in the KotLT story given her the best motive for being that mystery knight To me these are all parts of a greater whole, a bigger picture. I think this has already been well addressed by others, re: absence of evidence.
  8. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Okay. Nice chattin' with you.
  9. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Your argument seems to boil down to the fact that the theory is just a theory, so I don't really see what there is to debate. I mean, sure there are reasons to doubt it. After all, it's not yet been revealed. But there are lots of clues, and Lyanna does seem to be something of a horse-riding prodigy. And Jamie thinks that horse-riding is the largest part of jousting, etc. I'm genuinely mystified as to how someone could claim that the books are showing the opposite possibility of Lyanna-as-the-KotLT. I mean, how do you suppose that so many people organically came to that conclusion?
  10. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    No. I think you're missing my point. Which is that it was not really an opportune moment for Ned to call Lyanna a hypocrite. In that instance he was comparing Arya and Lyanna's wildness-- wolf blood. I feel like part of the disagreement here stems from whether or not you believe it would have been hypocritical for Lyanna to give that little speech and then sleep with Rhaegar in the first place. Cersei's Feast chapters contain several allusions to the HH tourney and RR. There are even pretty strong linguistic parallels between Ned's ToJ fever dream and Cersei's Maggie the Frog dream. I had a thread about this a while back. She casts doubt upon it, but as I've pointed out, Bael is pure maiden-bait. He's a musician/fighter/leader. Unless he was hideously ugly, that combination was likely land him nearly all of the women. Even you, Sly! I don't think this conclusion is safe to draw. After all, Lyanna was fond of... flowers.
  11. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    And it clearly makes sense to disregard a series of clues because someone made a mistake about an irrelevant detail in a hypothetical parallel. You're trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater. People making mistakes, or presenting bad versions of the Lyanna argument, does not change the fact that there is a good Lyanna argument.
  12. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Good point. We can't be sure that Rhaegar didn't catch Lyanna napping.
  13. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    The 'bait and switch' point is so right. This series is twenty years old now, and some of the popular mysteries have been all but solved, and nearly talked to death. So much so that some people end up convincing themselves that the solution is actually a red herring. Agreed. Good post.
  14. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    But it literally says "and woke." Whether Ned actually reached for the crown or not, that was part of a dream. Whereas the crowning was something Ned remembered. I just wanted to make clear that it was an OT thought, and not an attempt to start a new line of OT conversation here.
  15. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    I think it's fair to point out in response to my question that all the smiles died, but I don't think Ned actually reached for the crown. I think that's the point where it shifted from memory to dream. Ned literally goes from remembering the crowning in one paragraph, to waking up in the next. And it's that next paragraph where he supposedly reached for the crown. To me that has always read as a figurative description of the consequences of the crowning. Ned wishing he could take back, or undo, it. But it was too late. To queen her is to kill her. --- OT for this thread, but just wanted to mention quick. If you're interested in the possible astronomy angle/symbolism, you could interpret Rhaegar as the red comet -- “A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode” -- moving past the "sun" -- “Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell” -- to crown a/the moon (maiden). Not sure if @LmL has mentioned that or not.