J. Stargaryen

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  1. R+L=J v.162

    I'm not sure what you mean by arbitrary. The ToJ scene is one of the most important in the first book, and the series really. There's good reason to value the (potential) symbolism in it. Aside from what I'm talking about, GRRM didn't just coincidentally give the three KG bat, bull and magical sword symbolism. That stuff has meaning. It was carefully chosen by GRRM. As for TWoIaF, Jon can still be born the rightful claimant, especially in the eyes of the KG.
  2. That could be correct, and it was my original thought too. And that makes sense if you're limiting it to just that scene. But as a whole, I think Ser Loras at the TotH evokes Rhaegar, Lyanna, HH, and the ToJ even. Btw, great read.
  3. This reminds of something I've pointed out in the past. Two chapters after Ned describes himself as a "thrice-damned blind fool" blind Maester Aemon tells Jon that the gods saw fit to test his vows on three occasions. A neat little parallel in light of RLJ, since that makes Ned and Aemon Jon's uncles, from each side of his family. Though Aemon is a few generations back. Or possibly Rhaegar. Ser Loras is called the Knight of Flowers, which might be one way of describing a knight presenting flowers. In either case, it's certainly reminiscent of the HH tourney. I have a few posts on the topic, which can be found here, here and here.
  4. R+L=J v.162

    Sure, these things are the same as arguably the central mystery in the series. But that's the whole point. Forget the legal arguments for a second, and consider the symbolism. If you're saying that the three KG at the tower is foreshadowing Jon's eventual rise to a/the throne, then that's the other option as I see it. Something like that.
  5. R+L=J v.162

    Sounds legit, bud.
  6. R+L=J v.162

    I've been involved in a few of the legitimacy debates that focused on the KG and the ToJ. Arguing back and forth about the details dozens of times caused me to take a step back and ask: what is the author trying to convey to the audience by having three kingsguard present at the ToJ? Forget the in-universe details and consider the literary function of having three protectors called kingsguard present.
  7. Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

    Curiously... The app states that: "[Doran's] mother repeatedly miscarries or gives birth to children who fail to live out the year." Which is why he is nine years older than his oldest sibling, Elia. And we know that Elia has a difficult time with births. Maybe it runs in the family. Oh, come on. Anything to imply that Lewyn was stupid enough to blab about who he was breaking his vows with? “Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that.” - ADwD, The Discarded Knight All Barristan says is that he knows he kept a paramour. Once again, this seems to veer off into arguing hypothetical details about hypothetical scenarios. But since we're here, I think you're way off base saying Ashara wouldn't have had any stress after faking her death... Which would be a lie she would have lived every day of her life. You got me on the beard, though. But she probably does have hair, which could lose its color. And she definitely has a face, which could have wrinkles. I suppose everybody is entitled to their own definition of textual support. For example, I think the song Arya hears Dareon singing in Bravos during AFfC could reasonably be interpreted as a clue about Ashara. Which might seem kind of random until you recall that Edric talks about his aunt to Arya in ASoS. - Link I guess I just find it that strange that you acknowledge the evidence presented in TWoIaF, but nothing beforehand. Even though there are various L+A discussions predating its release.
  8. Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

    Because siblings are always close in age, like Rhaegar and Viserys. Remind me, how many decades younger than his sister did I claim Lewyn was? I think the way you use "implied" isn't really helpful, as it's possibly an intentional misdirection. I mean if we are led to believe one thing, but we aren't explicitly told that it is true-- isn't that exactly how red herrings often work? The amount of hyperbole in this paragraph hardly merits a response. However, the first chapter of the series provides a handy counter, describing Ned, who is most likely very close in age to Ashara, as appearing older than his years. Bran’s father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. - AGoT, Bran I I also think such arguments miss the point, which is: Arianne's line is straight forward and all but rules out Ashara, or it's not and doesn't. And that second part could cover a whole lot of ground. I would like to add, though, that this idea that a twenty-something girl in the prime of her beauty could not possibly be insulting about an attractive woman in her 30s on the basis of her age, seems wrong to me. What I missed where? Is this what you mean? "If there had been a Martell-Dayne child borne in the near past, wouldn't she recall that child? And her supposed death. And wonder if her baby with Darkstar might grow to look like that lost infant would have?" Either L+A isn't a thing, or it is, but GRRM wasn't ready to reveal it just yet. It's that simple. To say that I've built my case for L+A on unfalsifiable evidence (you can't prove it didn't happen!) is simply not true. Not only have I stated otherwise, but I've posted some of the circumstantial evidence that I believe supports L+A in this thread. I've repeatedly stated that Arianne's line and the HH stuff appear to be problems for the theory. However, in light of the circumstantial evidence, I think there's a decent chance that the apparent obstacles to the theory may not be as insurmountable as they appear. I guess I need to repeat myself. I came up with L+A before TWoIaF was released. Prior to its release we did not know that Lewyn came to court with Elia, or that he had become close with Rhaegar. Sure she does, since you provide one just a couple of sentences later. Arianne isn't a real person. She's a conduit of information for GRRM. And as I said above, she didn't contemplate anything to do with L+A because it's not true, or it is but GRRM didn't want to reveal it just yet. You think the former is much more likely and, objectively speaking, it probably is. Still, I find the circumstantial evidence suspicious. And I've never been especially taken by any of the L+X or X+A theories. --- Also, I want to clarify that I'm not asking you to prove negatives or anything like that. I despise those sorts of theories. I mentioned one possible hypothetical to OuttaOldtown, and it's become the focus of the discussion. It wasn't meant to be. If you're interested, there was discussion about the identity of Prince Lewyn's paramour here. And the thread where I first mentioned the idea, which had already been suggested, is here.
  9. Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

    Obviously. Part of the reason I think L+A could work is that GRRM might be setting up a potentially ironic situation with Barristan, who thinks that no good could have come from telling Ashara his feelings because he was a KG. Well, what if she were actually in love with a KG? Ouch, right? I don't know if he's meant to find out or not, but as an audience member you'd have to feel for him a bit.
  10. R+L=J v.162

    Nice. I think this fits nicely with my idea that the crowning at HH symbolically mirrors Jon's conception. Since Lyanna was literally being honored by Rhaegar at HH, then it follows that Jon is trueborn. After all, you can't honor a highborn lady by putting a bastard in her belly.
  11. Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

    I don't know if you've read anything I've written or not, but a key idea is that Barristan wouldn't have known Lewyn and Ashara were lovers. None of this precludes Lewyn from being assigned to Elia. In fact, if Lewyn became a KG as part of the marriage pact for R&E, it's not unreasonable to think that his being assigned to her was also a part of the deal. I really don't know about the Stark/HH stuff. The only thing that is clear to me about it is that GRRM is not very forthcoming with the details. I mean, was she dishonored by a Stark and then turned to them, or dishonored by someone else? If so, why did she turn to the Starks? Where is it implied? Because that reads to me like wishful thinking. Well, if that's the case he never says so. And why not? Do you think maybe it's possible that it's because GRRM meant for it to be a secret, or dare I say, a mystery? Not sure how you'd describe it, but I'd say Ashara did have a pretty tragic life. I like how in one paragraph you say that what's in the text is more important to you than speculation, but then speculate that Selmy knew who Lewyn's lover was, when the text never says that. The lover's identity is not implied anywhere. Do you not realize that this argument works just as well against any L+X theory? Maybe for the same reason Ned never thinks about Lyanna being Jon's mom? Uh, there's nothing wrong with saying that something might be possible, based on gaps in our knowledge. I've said that the Arianne line might not be as straight forward as it appears. Which doesn't seem unreasonable for ASoIaF. A series in which Ned seemingly replies to Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother, for example. Yeah, because that's totally the same thing. For the record, I came up with L+A prior to TWoIaF's release. So, I already felt there was a case before I found out that they probably came to court together.
  12. Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

    How do you know? Kind of like how Jon's aunt Dany is 15-20 years older than he is? For a certainty? Because I'm in my mid-30s, and based on my peers I can tell you that is not always the case. Not nearly. Having good bone structure, or nice features, does not stop the clock. --- Listen, I agree that the line from Arianne would seem to make Ashara an unlikely candidate. I've always said so. But there's a decent amount of circumstantial evidence suggesting L+A. Briefly: They're both Dornish characters with secret lovers. A fact which is mentioned on multiple occasions, in both cases. In ASoS, Arya has a long conversation about Ashara with Edric. Then in AFfC, she hears Dareon singing about a woman throwing herself from a tower because her prince had died. Now, there are two women in the series who supposedly threw themselves from towers; Bael's Stark girl, and Ashara. Well, Bael was no prince, but two princes did die on the Trident, which is shortly before Ashara was said to have jumped from the Palestone Tower. In ADwD, Barristan thinks about both Lewyn and Ashara. How the former had a paramour, and how he loved the latter. But no good could come of that, because he was a KG. There is great potential for irony here. In TWoIaF it says that Lewyn came to court with Elia, who would have been accompanied by her handmaidens. So, two Dornish characters, who both had secret lovers arrive at court at the same time. Lewyn becomes one of Rhaegar's most trusted allies, meaning he probably would have spent a good deal of time at Dragonstone, where Elia and her handmaidens lived. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Lewyn was assigned to Elia as part of the marriage pact. Seems reasonable, right? Well, if Lewyn became a KG at the same time as he came to court with Elia, and he had a paramour while he was a KG... do I need to spell it out? Two Dornish characters with secret lovers who were in the same place at the same time. Again, I say the line from Arianne is not a great fit for Ashara. Especially at first blush. But there's a good circumstantial case to be made for L+A, so maybe that line is not as straightforward as it appears. Would that be such a huge shock coming from an author who has repeatedly tried to deceive us?
  13. Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

    Arianne tells Arys that men said Lewyn's paramour was a rare beauty in her youth, which indicates to me that she didn't know her, at least back then. She's relaying what others have told her. I don't need to be able to read GRRM's mind to identify his method here. We are told that Ned is Jon's father, but the identity of his mother is a mystery. The mystery's answers gives us its twist. That Ned is not the father, as we had been told. I'm saying that once you realize something fishy is going, RLJ becomes obvious. I'm also saying that the majority of readers don't realize anything fishy is going on to begin with. If you are uncertain about Edric's complexion, how can you be certain that Jon is darker, as you claimed up thread? Yes. I stand by that. You pointed out something that no one is saying (Dornish looking) or doing (passing him off as Ashara's son).
  14. Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

    We don't know exactly when Ashara was born, the wiki gives a range of 260-269. But if we assume she is a year or two younger than Ned (b. 263), which seems reasonable, she would be 11-12 years older than Arianne (b. 276), and in her mid-30s by AFfC. Not old by our standards certainly, but not young by middle age/Westerosi standards either.
  15. Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

    The method GRRM uses to hide RLJ -- Ned as Jon's father -- is what allows him to place the otherwise obvious RLJ clues throughout the text. Because for the majority of readers, it doesn't even occur to them that Ned isn't Jon's father. That's the trick. No, I don't. I've just seen lots of people say they didn't pick it up on their first read. As I said above, the trick with RLJ is not in the subtlety of the clues, but in the distraction GRRM uses. Again, I'm going to note that in order for not-RLJ to be true, for all practical purposes it is a necessary condition that RLJ be very obvious, so that it can function as a red herring. And I think some of you have convinced yourselves that this is the case, because you need it to be. Where is it stated that Jon is darker than Edric? I found this passage from ASoS, Arya VI: He doesn’t like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey. It doesn't say anything about his complexion. In fact, of the four traits Arya mentions, she only contradicts two of them-- the hair and the eyes. This makes me think it's at least possible that he had a swarthy complexion. Is there another passage describing his appearance, specifically his complexion? If that's the case, nobody ever mentions it in the series, despite at least a couple of people commenting on Jon's Stark appearance. Yeah, it must be one of those.