J. Stargaryen

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About J. Stargaryen

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    Maegor II

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  1. True. Though I've wondered in the past if it wasn't GRRM's way of priming the readers to associate Rhaegar with multiple sons. IIRC, Cersei thinks about how she would have given Rhaegar sons. I knew it had to have happened, and that I was likely technically exaggerating when I said it doesn't happen (at all). But I couldn't recall the specific examples with certainty. Thanks.
  2. That's a really good post. It makes a very strong case for Aemon. Might be worth a link in your sig. The only thing I don't buy is about the show using a different name, but I guess it can't be ruled out. This isn't a middling character, and this won't be a middling revelation. I don't see the benefit in changing it here, whereas the other times made some sense. Okay, let's actually talk about that for a second. Leaving aside the reasons for ruling out Aegon, especially at first glance, it is the Targaryen name. So if you have a super special male Targaryen in the story, Aegon ought to be the leading candidate for his name. Unless GRRM gives us a good reason for it not to be, which he did. But it looks to me like that reason is not nearly as solid as it would first appear to be. Except he straight up said that Ned named Jon. And as @Shmedricko's link shows, the text even points to Ned naming Jon after his mentor, Jon Arryn. I'm not really interested in the "we don't/can't know for 100000000000000% sure" type of discussions, as that applies to everything. Unless we have a good reason to doubt a straightforward answer from GRRM, I'm not going to do so. If that turns out to be an error on my part, so be it. But I'd rather make such an error in an attempt to move a discussion forward, than play it safe and spin my wheels at the starting line. Honestly, there's just nothing but rank speculation here. Nothing that remotely challenges the fact that Jon's certainly a Targaryen by blood (bastard), and quite possibly a Targaryen by rights (legitimate). Once such a clear motive has been established, which it has, I see no point in entertaining random what ifs. Working backwards, we can't say for sure if Lyanna and Elia were "rivals." But if they were, then quite a strong parallel emerges with Alicent and Rhaenyra. Bitter rivals, each with their own Aegon. To the first point, once again naming the son after the father is just not something that happens in this universe. So you have no evidence to support this claim you are so fond of. In other words, the "idea" you suggest is completely baseless. She needn't have picked it "all by herself" though. I'd guess that Rhaegar indirectly influenced her choice. Or, maybe you were onto something when you called Lyanna and Elia rivals. Aemon is giving an opinion based on new information and circumstances. Aemon might well believe that he could have been one of the THotD simply because he was one of the only Targaryens left, and he knew Rhaegar's children couldn't be the THotD since they're dead. Much in the same way that he came to believe the PtwP could be a girl only after Dany's dragons were born. New information + new circumstances = new opinion. So what Aemon says and believes in ~300 AC doesn't tell us much about his and/or Rhaegar's beliefs some twenty years prior when a whole different set of circumstances existed. Rhaegar seemed to think he had a part to play in the prophecies, even if he changed his mind about which part. Because there's nothing to indicate Rhaegar thought Viserys was one of the heads in the HotU scene. The context is Rhaegar talking to his wife about the child she just bore him. I mean, if Rhaegar thought it was three males, then why not himself, Aegon and Viserys? Sorry, but I just don't see any reason to think Rhaegar believed Viserys had anything to do with the prophecies. In fact, do we ever get any indication of how Rhaegar regarded his brother?
  3. Sure, we don't know. But I would be very surprised if he didn't know by the time AGoT was published. So you're saying Ned might have just come up with the "Snow" part of the name? Come on... Plus, I'm pretty sure GRRM was answering about first names. I also think the Rhaegar-JonCon relationship is a lot more one sided than some people imagine. If Rhaegar was so close to JonCon, why wasn't he with him when Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna? Not to mention, we know who Rhaegar's BFF was, Arthur Dayne. Who the hell names their kid after maybe their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. best friend? No, this is just wrong. Being Rhaegar's child makes Jon a Targaryen by blood, if not by right. If R&L were married Lyanna would absolutely consider Jon a Targaryen, because that's exactly what he would be by all the customs and laws of the 7K. Any argument to the contrary is both wrong, and a waste of time. Right. There's no reason to believe that Jon's real name is Rhaegar Jr. It just doesn't happen in this universe. Or if it does it's exceedingly rare. And even then, there's no text to support that this would be the exception. It's textually supported conjecture. Rightly or wrongly, it's a commonly held belief that Rhaegar was intending on recreating the Aegon-Visenya-Rhaenys trio. I don't understand how you can dismiss this textually supported line of reasoning, and then argue that Jon's real name is Rhaegar Jr. Yes, this is true. We don't know for sure what the prophecy means, or exactly how Rhaegar was interpreting it after Dany's HotU vision. But in more than one place the text seems to indicate, rightly or wrongly, that the THotD are a trio of Targaryens. And we also know that Rhaegar, upon having his second child, stated that There must be one more. The dragon has three heads. It's possible that it's a red herring. Or maybe it's not so much a red herring, as an indication that we have correctly interpreted Rhaegar's beliefs/intentions regarding the prophecy, but that he was mistaken in his formulation of the THotD. That is, "THotD" means a trio of Targaryens, but it's clearly not meant to be Rhaegar's children. Further, they need not be siblings, as Aegon I and his sisters were. Sure, I guess that could be true.
  4. I'd say GRRM was well aware of the potential irony when he wrote that line, because he was purposely employing it. Meaning that Jon's real name is Aemon Targaryen. But he may have been playing the line straight; i.e., Jon is not an Aemon Targaryen. In which case he'd also likely be aware of the irony. Nah. GRRM has stated that Ned gave Jon his name. These aren't different things, since Rhaegar was a Targaryen. So, having Rhaegar's child means having a Targaryen child. You can't separate the two. And even if the child is a bastard, it's still a Targaryen bastard. So the motive still exists. I would agree that the motive to give Jon a Targaryen name is even stronger if he is legitimate. But regardless, the motive exists either way. Aside from the Freys, how many cases of a child being named after the father do we have? Actually, now that I think of it, are any of Walder's sons named after him, or is it just grandsons? Also, as far as we know, has it ever happened with the Starks or Targaryens? Without any such examples, we have no reason to believe that it would happen with Jon. Further, I'm unaware of any text hinting at this possibility. Naming the child after the father just doesn't seem to be a thing that happens much, if at all, in the ASoIaF universe. This makes sense. But the possibility that Rhaegar incorrectly assumed the gender and role of the baby fits perfectly in line with Rhaegar's character and prior interpretations of prophecy. That would certainly give Lyanna reason to ignore Rhaegar's wishes and choose a different name for her baby. Completely agree. Both versions make a lot of sense for different reasons.
  5. I've pointed out this parallel before too. If Jon's real name is Aemon then that is probably the point of this parallel. But this parallel, really the whole scene, works just as well if you read it as Maester Aemon counseling an Aegon.
  6. Fair enough. Agreed about the first King Aemon, too. I think one of the issue with reading GRRM is that it's hard to know when he's playing it straight, and when he's being ironic. For example, when Jon thinks to himself, nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Is that irony or not? I think that line might well be a hint regarding his Targaryen name, but I don't see how we're supposed to know for sure if GRRM was playing it straight or being ironic. At least not until we know Jon's Targaryen name. One thing I'm certain of is that Jon Snow is a placeholder for his Targaryen name, regardless of who named him. It's no coincidence that Jon Snow immediately reminds the reader of the John Doe placeholder. Also, I think your arguments about Lyanna being unwilling to give Jon a Targaryen name on her own make little sense in light of the fact that she was having a Targaryen child. That constitutes motive right there. You're welcome to speculate about why you think she wouldn't have done so, but the fact still remains. And then combine that with likelihood that Jon does have a Targaryen name. Also, if Lyanna wanted to give the baby a Stark name, then there would have been no reason for Ned to change it to Jon. Rickard or Brandon Snow works just as well, and would have made an awful lot of sense coming from Ned. Maybe, maybe not. It's possible that Rhaegar was expecting a girl to be named Visenya. Maybe he was even certain of it. The same way he was certain that he was the PtwP, and then he was certain it was his son by Elia, yet was wrong about both. Maybe Lyanna realized that Rhaegar had gotten it wrong yet again, once he and his family were dead and she had given birth to a boy. Again, maybe, maybe not. Maybe he insisted the child would be a girl, and he insisted that she be named Visenya. So certain was he that he didn't bother to pick a male name. You're welcome to assume all you'd like, but I see lots of room for possibility, even within your own guidelines. That makes sense, assuming he picked a boy's name. Don't you think it's at least possible that Rhaegar was sure Lyanna would give him a girl? Because if he believed that, then he has no reason to hedge his bets and also choose a boy's name. Thus opening the window for Lyanna to make her own choice one she gives birth to a boy. Imagine that scenario combined with the knowledge that Rhaegar wanted his son and heir to be named Aegon. IF Rhaegar chose a boy's name for Lyanna's child, I agree that Aemon is by far the most likely candidate. I also agree that Rhaegar would not have chosen Aegon for Lyanna's baby for the reasons you stated.
  7. It's not associating Jon with his dead older brother, though. It's associating Rhaegar's desire to name who he believed to be the PtwP Aegon. Combined with the fact that Elia's Aegon could no longer fulfill that role, while Jon could. Keep in mind that Rhaegar also references the Song of Ice and Fire during the scene where he names his son with Elia. The PtwP + the SoIaF... sound like anyone familiar? Sure, and story wise there has been lots of foreshadowing about Jon being a king. Yet there never was a King Aemon. Several King Aegons though. Further, if Jon does end up as an Aegon, I think he'll be Aegon VII, after YG is crowned Aegon VI. Yes, there is a good case for Aemon. I'm convinced that it's either Aemon or Aegon. @Lord Varys, What better name for a king? As for the rest, we've been over it before, and I don't feel like rehashing our previous arguments.
  8. Jon's real name being Aegon was a theory I worked out 2-3 years ago. Not to say I was completely convinced of it, but I thought it made sense. The gist being that Rhaegar was intent on naming the PtwP Aegon, which is exactly what he thought he did when he chose that name for his son by Elia. But with Rhaegar and Elia's son murdered, Lyanna fulfilled Rhaegar's naming wishes by calling Rhaegar's new son Aegon. "What better name for a king?" It's not exactly unprecedented to have multiple Aegons in the same story; e.g., Aegon II and Aegon III during the Dance. It wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened here with YG and Jon. Especially since we're supposed to get another Dance, with Dany and fAegon as the combatants. Who knows, maybe a similar result will take place, where the two leaders die and a sort of mutual heir is emerges.
  9. Thanks. I celebrated it by leaving my computer turned off for the day.
  10. Yesterday was my fifth forum birthday. Let's hope Winds is out before my sixth.
  11. Not really. Viserys was eight. It would probably be another eights years or so before he had any heirs. And once he started fathering children, there would be no guarantee he had sons. So Aegon is one accident from being the crown prince or king for about a decade, maybe more. Plus, there is a decent case to be made for marrying Viserys to Rhaenys. Re-securing the alliance with Dorne would be important to solidifying Viserys's eventual rule. Otherwise they might turn against Viserys in favor of Aegon and/or Rhaenys. Rhaegar's children backed by a great house would be very dangerous for Viserys. But with Viserys and Rhaenys holding the Dornish alliance together, as well as preventing internal strife, Aegon could be used to secure another alliance.
  12. Hardly. Aerys needn't disinherit Aegon and Rhaenys in order to name Viserys as his heir.
  13. Lol at JNR for throwing shade at someone who hasn't posted here in over a year. Brave, as always.
  14. Hence the fulfilling Rhaegar's wishes part. Rhaegar thought his son and heir was destined to be the PtwP, and he chose the name Aegon for him. Naturally Rhaegar believed this applied to his first-born son, who was his heir. After the Sack of KL/Lyanna giving birth, that boy was now Rhaegar's heir. In the vision, Rhaegar asks, "What better name for a king?" after naming his son with Elia. Well, that kid's chances at being king decreased markedly when he was murdered. But Rhaegar had another son (on the way). And that's Rhaegar's only living child, thus the only one with a shot at becoming king. "What better name for a king?" Honestly, I think that whole scene is set up to show us that Rhaegar was pinning his hopes on the wrong son. Evidenced by Rhaegar name dropping the Song of Ice and Fire. So, Aegon, Rhaegar's son and heir, and the PtwP, has a song—the Song of Ice and Fire. Leaving aside your issues with the name, does that sound like anyone you've heard of?
  15. Rhaegar and Lyanna wouldn't have. Lyanna would have, in order to fulfill Rhaegar's wishes once she learned that Rhaegar's family had been murdered.