J. Stargaryen

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About J. Stargaryen

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    Maegor II

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  1. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Don't know how you could possibly confuse the three sisters whose names all end with -aena.
  2. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    That was Elaena, when she was married to Ronnel Penrose.
  3. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Was Daena good with sums? I can't remember, and I'm not at home now, so I can't check.
  4. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Ha. Like Daena, I'm certain Lyanna was not allowed to compete in the lists either. Hence the disguise. Yes?
  5. Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

    Sound familiar? Then there's the part where she sneaked off to have an affair with a Targaryen prince, which resulted in the birth of a famous bastard. It seems like there is something of a Lyanna-Daena parallel here. Which means GRRM's describition of Daena as expert at riding at rings lends credibility to the app's claim about Lyanna being "practiced" at rings. Notice the same wording is used for Daena in TWoIaF. CC: @Sly Wren
  6. R+L=J v.162

    I'm not even sure what your point is. Again with the hyperbole. Nobody is saying Lyanna is going to believe "everything" Rhaegar tries to convince her of. It's not required of this theory. Has it occurred to you that Lyanna might have had some reason to come to believe in the prophecies? Possibly even after Rhaegar left for KL. Is it really that far fetched in a fantasy series that such a thing could occur? That seemed less like an assessment and more like you projecting your feelings onto a character, and claiming they would behave as you would. You're making it unnecessarily complicated. Maybe all you say is true, but then for some reason she had a change of heart. The theory is either true or it isn't. If it is, the details will work themselves out. So far, I have yet to see anything disqualifying, based on what we know. How does it reduce her to a plot device to create a baby any more than that is already the case? Again, as far as I know, no one is claiming that R&L hooked up because of prophecy. That's such a misunderstanding or mischaracterization of what has been put forth. That's fine, you're entitled to that opinion. As I am entitled to my opinion about the quality of your arguments. I covered how Lyanna having her own agenda wouldn't necessarily conflict with her helping to fulfill the prophecy. Maybe you misunderstood. I understand you fine. You're just suggesting ideas with no basis. The second bold answers the first. Having a baby with Rhaegar gives her a connection to House Targaryen, like it or not. Her child is a Targaryen by blood, and possibly title. Why? Do you think a highborn lady would be unaware of traditional Targaryen names like Aegon and Aemon? Obviously not. I say I think Lyanna might have succeeded where Rhaegar failed, and you claimed that I was denying her agency. Yet you're claiming she wouldn't have been able to choose a well-known Targaryen name for her Targaryen son, without the help of Rhaegar. I would basically agree that Rhaegar was more likely to have chosen Aemon. However, we know that the Stark kids are familiar with the Dragonknight, so I'm betting the previous generation would have been as well. I don't know if you're intentionally missing the point or not, but it's already been explained to you on multiple occasions, so I'm going to leave it at that. Not exactly an apples to oranges comparison... If you say so. Well, that was one of my suggestions, so I don't see how you find it ridiculous. As far as Dany hatching the dragons, it's just my opinion. I think it's too straightforward and on the nose. So I think it's going to be something else. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the prophecy isn't meant to be applied to just one of them. Maybe they will both fulfill it in different ways. Mel seems to know about the Others. How could it not? In that case, tens of thousands died so millions, or maybe even billions, could live. Sure. But there's also a lot more that we don't know about her, especially after she hooked up with Rhaegar. Right, not absolute proof. We just know this is a fantasy series where at least one hero is going to be needed to save humanity from the Others. And we know that Rhaegar thought the PtwP had a song, which he called the song of ice and fire. The fact that Rhaegar felt like ice was going to be included in the destiny of the PtwP kinda seems like he might have been onto something. Even if he got the details wrong. You're not even talking about the same thing here. At least as far as I can tell. I said I wasn't arguing that pretty much everybody who had close relations with Rhaegar shared his view about prophecy.
  7. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    @Sly Wren, There's no good excuse for such a late reply, but here it is. Also, Happy Thanksgiving (to everyone). I meant that the fight was very important to the story re: "big." It was a rather small skirmish numbers wise. But then why did Rhaegar name that tower the ToJ? Not only is this theory lacking any solid evidence, or evidence of any kind imo, but it also requires a new explanation in a place where a really good one already exists. That looks like a red flag to me. Pregnant Lyanna being there is a good explanation. It can even work if AD is the father. Once it becomes clear that Lyanna will have the baby there, Rhaegar names it the ToJ in honor of his BFF's impending fatherhood. Same idea for RLJ, of course. They don't say what they've been doing. They say they were "far away" from KL, which has been discussed at some length since you posted this. Including the explanation for why "here" would not have made sense. Dreams not being literal ≠ the specific interpretation you guys have willed into existence, though. I'd be a lot more open to it if you guys had found anything solid to support this position. Many months. Still waiting. Btw, did it ever occur to you that GRRM was simply trying to cast doubt on upon the prevailing interpretation for selfish reasons? There was a time when he was quite distraught at the realization that people had figured out the central mystery to his story. Sure, but that's different from conflating locations. Respectfully, I'm going to keep saying that you guys have been at this for a while and have nothing to show for it, evidence wise. I have my doubts about the dialogue, for starters. I follow what you're saying, but I don't see it the same. The "rush of steel and shadow" is the beginning of the fight, which we know happened. So that's something real that is shown symbolically. Which would then parallel the scream + blue rose petal storm + blood-streaked sky representing Jon's birth, another real event. The blood-streaked sky = bed of blood, storm of blue rose petals = the winter rose crown Rhaegar gave to Lyanna. Coinciding with a scream would make sense since... well, childbirth. But it's pretty likely that Jon spent some time there as a newborn. They're clearly in on the cover story. I just don't see how that takes Lyanna away from the ToJ. I mean, I get where you're going, but absent other evidence, I don't rate it as a theory yet. The questioner stated a couple of things, though. In fact, one of the things he was questioning was why there was a fight in the first place. It's a bit more than that. The text puts her at a specific place, at a specific time. Which means the audience is meant to think that's where she was. However, because we learn this through a dream, there is a possibility that we are being mislead. I think that's a bit misleading and/or inaccurate. We can be sure that the rose petal storm is symbolic, whereas Lyanna may well have been there. Just because we only have this information from the dream, does not mean it is strictly symbolic. Ned brought Dawn back to Starfall after the ToJ. So there's a pretty good chance Jon was there as a newborn. Jon was born in the Red Mountains of Dorne, though. How does that work in your favor anymore than mine? In other words, the evidence is a handful of interpretations of symbolism, and extrapolating from parallels. Things like that. That's fine in and of itself. But the double standards really stick out to me. You want to argue that Lyanna wasn't at the ToJ because it only says she was in a dream, and not in anyone's waking POV. But where is the waking POV placing Jon's birth at Starfall? Hell, I'd even take a dreaming POV. You said the text leaves a gap, but I disagree with that wording. If anything, it's an intentional a red herring, because she's in the dream. None of that really seems on par with, for example, Lysa putting Tyrion on trial after accusing Cersei in her coded letter to Cat. That's a big contradiction, right out in the open, plain as day. Not some murky symbolic interpretations. You're welcome to split hairs all you want. But she's in the dream, which takes place at the ToJ. Even if it's a conflation, she's in the dream.
  8. R+L=J v.162

    I've tried responding to this post twice before, but lost both versions. Apparently, there must be one more... So? It's not uncommon for one person to pick up another person's "mission." To succeed where they failed. And accomplishing Rhaegar's "mission" doesn't necessarily preclude Lyanna from having accomplished hers. Character arcs and story lines, like roads, do intersect from time to time. For example, it might have been her mission to stop her impending wedding with Robert. I said nothing of the sort. And frankly, I find this kind of uncharitable hyperbole to be in poor taste. You've twisted my words to such an extent that you're basically arguing a straw man. I'm sure Rhaegar will be disappointed to hear all of that. But seriously, you're not Lyanna. So I don't know why you think your feelings are relevant here. Who said anywhere, ever, that Lyanna would have had to read about the prophecy? This is such an unnecessary assumption. It's obviously enough that Rhaegar could have told her. Maybe she liked the idea of birthing a/the prophesied savior. I'm not making that argument, but why are you making one that rules out that possibility? Well, I was under the impression that you could always shoot down the stork mid flight, if need be. That's a fantastic argument to make when discussing a theory, since they all include speculation. I think I already covered this. Based on what? Stated more reasonably, none of that seems far fetched to me. We should also recall that Lyanna, as a highborn lady, would have studied history, and been fully aware of traditional Targaryen names like Aemon and Aegon. And btw, she did have a connection to the Targaryens if she was having a Targaryen baby. How hard is that to grasp? Why are you stripping her of her agency? I could speculate, but that's a question for GRRM. What seems very likely to me for reasons already stated, is that she did give him a Targaryen name. That's not my idea, nor my invention. You claimed that there was no connection between the name Aegon and the PtwP. I countered by pointing out that Rhaegar named the person he believed to be the PtwP Aegon. Which constitutes a connection. And @Rippounet reinforced the connection with a quote I had forgotten about: "My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon." - Dany Once again connecting the PtwP with the name Aegon. Maybe because Rhaegar had already been studying the prophecies for years before Viserys was born. This is a really bizarre argument to me, since we can be pretty sure that Rhaegar did in fact father one of the heroes, or possibly the hero. This is like knowing a government agency is spying on a person, and calling them paranoid. It's not paranoia if they're really after you. And the prophetic ramblings aren't mad if they were right. I have some ideas about how Jon could wake dragons from stone and things like that, but it's not important. What I will say is that I don't think Dany fulfilled the prophecy of waking dragons from stone by hatching the dragons from stone, because it's too straightforward. Alternatively, it's possible that Dany's will be the in-universe explanation, along with a more symbolic one for the readers. Rhaegar believed a hero (or three) was needed. He was right. 1. So? Again, none of this is relevant. It's not any kind of problem for the theory, because the theory never makes any such assumptions. 2. Rhaegar might not have had absolute proof, but we do. So we know Rhaegar was right. I don't know who is making this argument, but it's not me.
  9. R+L=J v.162

    If you say so.
  10. R+L=J v.162

    Announcing a marriage between R&L wouldn't change the fact that the rebels had already raised their banners in defiance of the king's call for Ned and Robert's heads.
  11. R+L=J v.162

    I'm pretty sure you've been around here enough to be able to figure out the answer on your own. But in case I'm being presumptuous, the marriage almost for sure couldn't happen if it was openly discussed. If Rhaegar asked permission to take a second wife, he risked being denied. Rickard couldn't be seen to openly negotiate a different marriage for Lyanna after accepting Robert's offer. So the marriage would have had to be done in secret, and only become known after the deed was done.
  12. R+L=J v.162

    How can some people think Rhaegar would just assume he's definitely going to be king, considering the way his relationship with his father had deteriorated? Though it might seem counter intuitive, marrying Lyanna might have been the better option for avoiding war with half of the kingdom. As opposed to just taking her for a mistress. "Lord Rickard, would you prefer to have royal grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc., or risking the existence of your house in a war you're unlikely to win?"
  13. R+L=J v.162

    That's an interesting point, and I don't dismiss the parallel out of hand. However, I have my doubts because the circumstances between the two situations are markedly different for a number of reasons, which I'm sure you don't need me to list. And regardless of what those Blackwoods who built the statue might have thought -- perhaps they were honoring her not for the bastards, but for her role in the acquisition of the Teats from their rivals, the Brackens -- custom in the 7K says that highborn ladies are dishonored by premarital sex.
  14. R+L=J v.162

    Rhaegar honored Lyanna at HH with the crowning. If that's a symbolic rendering of RLJ, which some of us think it is, then we should remember that you can't honor a highborn girl by putting a bastard in her belly.
  15. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    I just wanted to remind everybody that the vast majority of hardcore fans believe RLJ. Cheers.