J. Stargaryen

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About J. Stargaryen

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  1. R+L=J v.160

    I believe you're misreading somewhere along the way if you think that everyone did as Rhaegar wanted. @John Courage I can't quite get to your post at the moment as I am traveling today. It's possible I will be able to later, though I'm not 100% sure I'll have access to a computer for the next ~10 days. But the short version is: I don't see anything in your post that I consider persuasive. For example, you describe the crypt scene between Lady Dustin and Theon. Right, I get what you're saying, but in literature an author will often use subtext to communicate with the audience. That's what I'm suggesting here, so your argument describing the scene doesn't really move me. No worries about being confrontational earlier. We're cool. Anyway, gotta run. Hopefully I'll be able to get back to you tonight or tomorrow.
  2. R+L=J v.160

    1. It's not directly suggested. Otherwise I might have led with that. 2. Lady Dustin, who tells us about the southron ambitions, doesn't connect it to Lyanna's kidnapping. But why would she know Rhaegar's motive for kidnapping Lyanna? It doesn't even seem like Robert does. Though, interestingly, Lady Dustin does discuss the southron ambitions while in the Winterfell crypts, right in front of the statues of Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna. Thanks for reminding me. Because it is a curious thing to introduce into the text. Why in Dance, and why in the Winterfell crypts, in front of those statues? Maybe the southron ambitions played a part in their deaths. 3 & 4. I know. You can absolutely conspire to do something that you don't end up doing. Where is it suggested in the text that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna for the sake of prophecy? There's talk of Rhaegar loving Lyanna, and there is prophecy stuff that is connected to Aegon. Does anyone in the text connect the prophecy stuff to the kidnapping? If not, then people who make the connection on their own must be putting more into the text than they're taking away from it, right? Or, are those people just connecting the dots and theorizing in a pretty standard way? --- Thanks for attempting to address my points with this post. But all you've done is point out that I'm connecting dots, and that I might be mistaken in doing so, which we already knew. That's part of what makes it a theory instead of a fact.
  3. Is Jon's blood a dragon shape?

    I kind of like this idea, as it would probably make more sense in universe.
  4. R+L=J v.160

    I missed this initially. Good post.
  5. R+L=J v.160

    The S in STAB stands for Stark, and the B for Baratheon. Lyanna was Lord Stark's daughter and Robert's betrothed. With the latter said to have been in love with her. The Tullys and Arryns are part of an alliance with the Starks and Baratheons, and would cooperate with them on this matter. That's how alliances work. If Rhaegar married Lyanna, I'd suppose he was counting on Rickard to keep the rest of STAB in check, more or less. Since, presumably, Rickard would not want his daughter hurt. Not only that, but he would have something to gain in the form of royal grandchildren. You asked what would stop the rebels from killing Rhaegar to marry his Martell and Stark children... well, that may have been his plan anyway. The Tullys will likely go along with the Starks, since they would have been family by marriage. So Robert marrying Lysa is out of the question. And I don't think Tywin would marry Cersei to a rebel lord who had no chance of winning a rebellion. No. Do you have a quote where someone says that R+L=J? Guess it must not be true, right? This thread is over two months old. If anything, this discussion is un-sticking it. If you think we're OT then report it to the mods. If they agree then I'll take my posts elsewhere. Really? Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. In the text. Southron ambitions. In the text. Varys whispering to Aerys that HH was a plot by Rhaegar. In the text Rhaegar telling Jaime that he means to call a council when he returns from the Trident, and meant to long ago. In the text. It's almost like you're completely mistaken when you say my conclusion is not based on the text. And for the record, that's the second time you've attacked my argument without actually addressing any points I have made.
  6. Is Jon's blood a dragon shape?

    If anything, I'd say C & D are wings, B is a back leg, and A is the tail. I agree it does seems like it's missing a head. Maybe it's saying that a dragon head has been chopped off. Oh, and it could be a visual representation of blood of the dragon. Maybe. A couple of posts of mine from another thread:
  7. R+L=J v.160

    For starters, Rhaegar would be holding Lyanna hostage, which should help keep STAB in check. Next, if they married -- whether that was planned ahead of time or not -- Rhaegar could possibly win 2-3 members of STAB to his side, as I laid out in my last post to MindBomb. This is an idea I've kicked around in the past. Another possibility is that Rhaegar would have eventually revealed a good reason for kidnapping Lyanna, real or otherwise. Though the former would probably require Lyanna's cooperation, and the latter her complicity. An alternative I don't think you are considering is that Rhaegar wasn't necessarily trying to make nice with STAB. Instead, he might have planned on holding Lyanna hostage in order to extort them as part of a plot to remove his father from power, by the vote of a GC or force if necessary. After the deed was done, Rhaegar could have exchanged Lyanna for some of the younger children from the STAB houses to ensure their continued loyalty. Ned/Benjen, Lysa/Edmure, and Stannis/Renly would have all made fine squires and/or cup bearers. And maybe someone like Jon Arryn could have been given a seat on the small council, if necessary. Fundamentally, I'm not sure this plan is riskier than any of the alternative explanations that I am aware of since, at the end of the day, they all involve kidnapping Lyanna Stark.
  8. R+L=J v.160

    This makes a lot of sense thematically, but TWoIaF says that the abduction happened less than 30 miles from HH, and the Inn at the Crossroads seems to be farther away than that. It's tough to say for sure, because there are so many unknowns. I can imagine that Aerys would see the benefit in holding Lyanna hostage though. However, there are a couple of problems: 1) If Rhaegar was blowing up Aerys's plan, why didn't he just escort Lyanna to Riverrun? Or even back to HH, which seemed to be in Rhaegar's camp, since Lord Whent hosted the tourney for the prince. 2) Holding Elia and her children hostage makes sense by itself. But to do this, and then hand over the entire loyalist army to Rhaegar seems extremely risky to me. What's to stop Rhaegar from arresting, or murdering, his father then and there? Your line of thinking has got me wondering if it isn't maybe possible that Aerys and Rhaegar were working together on the kidnapping. This is obviously different from what I've been proposing, and would require an assumption that the two had worked out their differences. But it might help explain how Aerys was able to send Hightower to summon Rhaegar back to KL. That said, I find it fairly unlikely just now. Another explanation I had proposed many months ago was that Rhaegar married Lyanna to chop a leg or two off of STAB. If her marries her, he gives Lord Rickard the choice between being a grandfather to royalty or war. If Rickard chooses the former, Rhaegar probably also gains the Tullys as allies, and possibly the Arryns as well, but definitely not the Baratheons. If, and it's a big if, Rhaegar could get the Starks and Tullys on his side, he would be in the process of forming his own power bloc, along with Dorne. There are a few possibilities for sure. Probably the easiest is that he was honoring her for her deeds as the KotLT.
  9. R+L=J v.160

    This is an important part of the equation. Because of who she is, the abduction absolutely demanded a response. And Rhaegar would have known this. Actually, anybody with a handful of brain cells would have. STAB vs. SAB: The daughter of Lord Tully was betrothed to the heir of Lord Stark, so I count them as part of the alliance. Though it is true that the alliance nearly fell apart after Brandon died. Could you elaborate on Aerys gaining control of Lyanna? Do you think he intended to kidnap her, but Rhaegar preemptively kidnapped her, or... ? I agree that the romance came later, and I think there's a fair chance it was accidental. I'm not convinced that Rhaegar ever put two and two together regarding his offspring by Lyanna fulfilling the prophecy. If he did, it would have had to have been later on, as you say. And if he that is the case, then you can rule out prophecy as a direct motivation for the kidnapping. I still think it's possible that prophecy was indirectly responsible, as it may have caused Rhaegar to play the game of thrones in the first place.
  10. R+L=J v.160

    Noted. I'm talking about from the realm's PoV, not Rhaegar's. The kidnapping of a great lord's daughter/the betrothed of another great lord is inherently political.
  11. R+L=J v.160

    Once STAB confronts Aerys, and he doesn't side with them, which he won't, the conflict is no longer simply between Rhaegar and STAB, but the latter and House Targeryen. And Aerys is the head of House Targaryen. For example, imagine that I have a kid who steals something from you. When you come to confront me about it, I take my kid's side. Are you only mad at my kid now? Or, imagine you tried appealing to an authority like the police, but were rebuffed. I think that many reasonable people would be upset with the police, even though they weren't the ones who stole things. STAB would go to Aerys seeking some sort of justice, and would be rebuffed. Regardless of who started it, they would justifiably be pissed at Aerys. Not only is Aerys responsible for the actions of members of his house, but he is the ultimate authority in the 7K. Meaning that STAB could not expect any sort of justice for Lyanna's kidnapping. I never claimed that Rhaegar was only doing one thing at a time, re: politics, prophecy or love. I simply showed that he was playing the game before and after the kidnapping. And since the kidnapping is, objectively speaking, necessarily political in nature, it makes sense that Rhaegar's motivation was political. That he was still playing the game. It's not conclusive proof, but it makes sense. You're asking for speculation here, which you've already been given, and which you've already rejected. There are gaps in every explanation. However, I've addressed this a bit in answer to your first paragraph, and maybe you'll find this answer more persuasive. Or you won't. Either way, I think the underlying logic of the political motivation explanation is fairly solid. I'm not out to convince anyone that this is the right answer. Only that it might be, and that it's a plausible explanation.
  12. R+L=J v.160

    No offense, but it's almost like you're trying not to use your imagination. 1: Kidnap Lyanna. 2: Create conflict between Aerys and STAB. 3: Return once things have been sufficiently fouled up and save the day. As for the brief comment from your first paragraph about Rhaegar intentionally starting a war, I don't think he was. Especially the more I think about it. I mean, look at how far Aerys was able to push STAB before they officially rebelled. I'm thinking that Rhaegar probably expected a little sabre rattling from STAB, and possibly some minor skirmishes, but nothing more. As I said before, I think looking at the way the war actually played out, STAB's victory was improbable. I also noticed that you didn't bother to address my time periods A, B and C argument. Wherein Rhaegar was almost 100% surely playing the game of thrones in A and C. But then, according to people who disagree with the political explanation, was not playing the game in B, while simultaneously making the biggest, most committed political move of his life. He couldn't hide behind the "it was just a tournament excuse" like he could with HH. It looks to me like he never quit playing. I suppose it's possible that he quit after he failed in A. Then he kidnapped Lyanna in B and was required to keep playing through C. However, unless kidnapping Lyanna was a spur of the moment decision, we come back to the same problem: Rhaegar would have factored in the political implications of kidnapping her.
  13. [Spoilers] EP601

    Yeah, the closeup shot after already showing him staring at it is what convinced me there's something going on there. You're welcome.
  14. [Spoilers] EP601

    Try the original link now. Sorry about that. Or, here. The link you quoted doesn't work though.
  15. [Spoilers] EP601

    There are a couple of enhanced pics here. In one of them I've circled the wings and placed an arrow roughly parallel with the tail. For the record, I'm not exactly convinced there are wings or a tail, and people have been claiming to see shapes in the blood since last season's finale. It's a lot like seeing shapes in the clouds. But especially the top "wing" resembles the show version of the wing/arm appendage. It's very angular.