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Everything posted by Newstar

  1. Yeah. Even if Arya does sail into the sunset, there's nothing strictly speaking preventing Gendry from accompanying her on her travels, unless he dies or is legitimized and named Lord of Storm's End or whatever. (In the 7x05 script outline, I believe Davos or Jon mentions the possibility of legitimizing Gendry, so it's not that farfetched.) I don't think it's likely that they sail off into the sunset together, but it's certainly possible. If it came down to one of Sansa/Bran needing to die for the other to be endgame Lady/Lord of Winterfell, my money would be on Sansa, if only because of the outline that seemed to imply that Bran would survive. As much as the show seems to be setting up Sansa as endgame Lady of Winterfell, the way the TV writers made Jon KITN also seemed to imply that Book Robb's will, which names Jon Robb's heir and which bars Sansa from inheriting Winterfell, is going to come into play. It would be strange if Sansa wound up as endgame LOW when there's a mysterious will floating around which is supposed to prevent that from happening. The Northerners could always disregard the will, especially if Sansa obtains an annulment (since her marriage to Tyrion was the reason she was disinherited), but how likely is that? And if Book Sansa never gets Winterfell because of Robb's will, then I don't see how TV Sansa can end up with it in the end, which would theoretically clear the way for Bran or even Arya. If Sansa doesn't end up with Winterfell, though, what the heck is going to happen to her? It looks like it's endgame Lady of Winterfell or bust at this point.
  2. Forget Jane Goldman. Kingsman 2 is a shitshow. Not entirely her fault, since the script was written with Matthew Vaughn, but still. I feel like Cogman, having worked on GOT, would enjoy a serious advantage over the other competitors. Not fair to the other four, but then, that's life I guess.
  3. Bran could always die, I guess. The 3ER's "reassurance" to Bran that he wasn't going to be "an old man in a tree" could have a double meaning: Bran's not going to be an old man in a tree not just because he leaves the cave, but because he dies young and never gets to be an old man. Or, I suppose, Sansa could always die and Bran could suddenly change his mind about his status as the 3ER disqualifying him from Lord of Winterfell status. Otherwise, though, with Sansa running things and Bran hanging out in the weirwood being weird, it seems like a strange setup.
  4. Agree to disagree. It may have gotten lost in the shuffle in all the discussions upthread, but I'm going to repeat my prediction that Arya's ending is likely her sailing off to parts unknown. It ties into that odd bit of dialogue from Season 6 (Arya wondering what's west of Westeros). It echoes her ending in 4x10. It fits in with the writers' comparison of Nymeria and Arya both being "lone wolves" who cannot be domesticated. It links up with Book Arya's dreams in AGOT of traveling and seeing the wonders of the world, although there's certainly an argument to be made that her travels post-AGOT cured her of romantic notions about wandering around having adventures. It even fits in with GRRM's alleged plans for a post-ASOIAF mystery series set in Braavos, in which an adult Arya was (allegedly) supposed to play a role. There's been a lot of argument over what GRRM meant by a "bittersweet" ending, but when he discussed it himself in terms of the LOTR ending (which he saw as bittersweet), he said something along the lines of Frodo never being the same again, and the other characters "live their lives." I wouldn't be surprised to see the Starks, assuming they all survive, ultimately separate in the end as they proceed to pursue their own goals and live their lives: Jon goes south to sort out the mess Cersei has left behind, Sansa remains at Winterfell, Arya goes off adventuring, etc. The one sticking point for me is what will happen with Bran if Sansa remains Lady of Winterfell (assuming he survives). Will he just...hang out in the weirwood all the time while Sansa runs things? I figured that Book Bran was permanently tree-bound before Season 6 aired. Now that the show seems to have ruled that out, I don't know what's going to happen to him, especially with Sansa seemingly set up as the endgame ruler at Winterfell.
  5. I agree. Sansa adopting a plainer cloak may very well be a concession to Arya's complaints about Sansa liking pretty things (meeting her halfway by ditching the fancy cloak in favour of something plainer). That has nothing to do with Sansa opening herself up to love, though, since that was expressed in her costuming through wearing the tight, confining dresses.
  6. If you can't talk about fictional characters' love lives without losing your temper and resorting to personal attacks, I suggest you take some time to reflect on why that might be. Agree to disagree. Also see my response to @greensleeves
  7. The character point was these tight dresses show Sansa literally closing herself off from being touched. That she continues to wear the same tight, confining dress after LF's death, even when Clapton suggested that this was also intended as a message to LF, suggests that her attitude hasn't in fact changed, and that LF's death hasn't opened her up to sex and love (as many in this thread have suggested with no basis). In Season 4, when Clapton wanted to show her transformation in outlook, Sansa wore a brand-new, shockingly different dress for a single scene. Nothing of the kind happened here. Therefore, my interpretation is the correct one. Because it shows that she resents the interference of even a good, "strong" man she loves and trusts, putting the lie to those who have claimed in this thread that Sansa would be just fine with ceding control to a man as long as it was a good guy she could trust. And yeah, it's strongly hinted that she would prefer to have him out of the way, even if she would never act on those desires (however tempted). I'm not going to do your homework for you on how how that's hinted in Season 7; that's been discussed to death in the episode-specific forums. But she keeps wearing the same tight dress after his death, even though Sansa has sported a brand-new dress in her final scene of the season before to show a transformation in attitude (the mockingbird dress in Season 4), so the show supports my interpretation and not yours. LOL.
  8. LOL, she's wearing the same dress as she did earlier in the season--you can see the horizontal feathers mimicking her "mockingbird" dress--even though LF is out of the picture, which completely defeats your argument and indicates that my interpretation is correct, not yours. As Michele Clapton said, her S7 costumes--tight cuts, side lacing, belts, etc.-are designed to restrict physical touch, and the fact that she continues to wear those tight, trussed-up dresses after LF's death reinforced my point, so clearly I paid more attention than you did. Nice try, though. Based on an observation of yours which proved to be incorrect, and which actually suggests that my argument is the correct one.
  9. TV Sansa definitely doesn't want to remarry and would much rather run Winterfell unimpeded; in Season 7, it's strongly implied that she would much rather run Winterfell with Jon out of the way and is even briefly tempted by the prospect of a coup. And if her desire for power and control means that she secretly wishes she were rid of Jon of all people, who has only ever tried to protect and defend her, whom she unquestionably loves, and whom she considers further from Joffrey than anyone she has ever met, what shot does anyone else have? It doesn't have to, but in Sansa's case, it obviously does. I'm guessing the writers are working backwards from Book Sansa's endgame--steely, single Elizabeth I-style Lady of Winterfell--and using the Ramsay marriage and everything that went with it to explain her attitude. Gross, sure, but not beyond D&D. Arya sailing into the sunset would be a perfect ending, I think. You're assuming that Sansa will fall in love and get married at some point in the future and reasoning backwards from there, and it's terrible reasoning. There's nothing in the show to suggest that Sansa is going to fall in love or has any interest in remarrying at all. In fact, Season 7 suggests quite the opposite, that Sansa is increasingly interested in running things herself and hates the idea of anyone, even someone kind and decent who loves her, getting in the way. Season 7 is also setting up characters' endgames: Sansa as the endgame LOW who rules by herself without male interference is looking like a lock. Well, no. I pay attention to the show and don't try to second-guess characters when they make their opinions and attitudes clear. And Tyrion has never said to himself that he's done with prostitutes and with women in general because Shae fucked him up real good, and Sansa has never said to herself that she's never going to let a man be in a position to control her ever again if she can help it. We know it, though, just as we know that Arya's not into romance and marriage. How? By watching the show and paying attention to what the characters actually say and do, instead of projecting fantasies on to them about how they should be acting and feeling. I think your problem is that you're not watching the show, you're watching the version of the show you want to see--based on what you think will happen and reasoning backwards from there--and ignoring what's actually going on. That way lies guaranteed disappointment, as the great Jonsa Shipper Meltdown of 2017 showed. The show is what it is. The characters and their relationships are what they are. If you don't like it? For everything else, there's fanfic. Season 7 Sansa doesn't want a man to assist her. She doesn't want a man in the picture at all, even a strong, kind man like Jon who would never hurt her, because said man can override her, refuse to listen to her, and make a botch of things. Given her experiences, that is an entirely sensible attitude. You're reasoning backwards: when Sansa falls in love and gets married, she'll decide to produce an heir, blah blah blah. All indications are that Sansa is never going to get there due to her traumatic experiences and the lessons she has learned, and she will actively resist any attempts to force her into that corner. (Not that Jon or Dany would press the point.) Not under the circumstances. As I said, the Elizabeth I/James I solution works just fine. If you can't make your point without making personal attacks, maybe cool down and try again later.
  10. Why not try an actual argument? Children are inherently incompatible with freedom and being a lone wolf (which is how the writers characterized Nymeria and Arya)...unless you're a horrible parent. Not that Arya can't, but that she doesn't, and projecting those desires on to her does Arya a disservice. Why not focus on what Arya actually cares about and wants, instead of being disappointed that she doesn't share what you think should be her priorities? Also, FYI, insisting that a gender expectation-bucking female character who has no interest in romance or babies is going to develop that interest at some point down the line in the absence of any evidence is not a good look. If you want a story where everyone pairs off at the end and heads off into happy unions, there are many, many stories like that. GRRM has never been about that, though, as a review of his other works makes very clear. Even the historical Targ bios GRRM has written about at great length are full of misery, abuse, adultery, and dysfunction; there's maybe one or two happyish marriages of any duration in the lot, and we're talking about dozens of characters. That's also true of ASOIAF in general: most of the relationships are dysfunctional at best. I think at some point you have to accept GOT/ASOIAF for what it is and stop hoping it will be something else. My point was that someone who was repeatedly raped in the hopes of producing an heir would have very strong feelings about her supposed "duty" to do the same, especially someone strongly influenced by and admiring of a woman deeply embittered by her own experience as a brood mare. Good thing I never said that, then, isn't it? I said that she's shown no interest in romance or children, which is correct. Even the dream she wanted for herself as a child as expressed in Season 7 was being a knight and going on adventures. Nothing about marriage or babies there. Book Arya never showed any interest in romance or children, either, for that matter. Y'all need to stop going on about what you think Arya should be and accept what she is. She said it herself. "That's not me." That's not me. THAT'S. NOT. ME. Certain shippers did, that's for sure. Because Arya, Sansa and Tyrion are not only not involved with anyone but unlikely to get involved due to their terrible experiences (in Tyrion and Sansa's cases) or lack of interest (in Arya' case), and that's extremely unlikely to change. Jon and Dany are already in a relationship, so at least they have a shot. As for Tyrion vs. Jon and Dany, Tyrion in the show has never had a real relationship and probably questions whether Shae ever felt anything for him at all--unlike Jon and Dany, who believed that Drogo, Daario and Ygritte genuinely loved them--and he's been shown to be traumatized by what happened with Shae to the point where he even refuses free sex with a pretty, kind prostitute, something that he once would have jumped at. Dany was receptive to a sexual relationship post-Drogo, as we saw with Daario, and there was no indication that Jon was turned off sex forever by Ygritte. So there's an easy distinction to be drawn between Tyrion and Jon/Dany. Tyrion has been shown in the show to have been traumatized by what happened to him to the point that his previous attitudes towards sex and the opposite sex have changed. Jon and Dany never showed a similar change.
  11. It's a fact that a lot of rape survivors lose interest in intimate relationships; Sansa seems to be one of them. Even absent the rape, Sansa would be well within her rights to refuse to remarry given her experiences with marriage. Book Sansa is already sour on marriage as well. Also, it's far worse to imply that a rape survivor needs to suck it up, spread her legs, and take one for the team, which is why all the whining about how Sansa needs to have babies OR ELSE is so distasteful. It's also a false assumption that Sansa and/or Arya need to have kids or else House Stark is doomed. If Sansa ends up as an Elizabeth I figure, she can do what Elizabeth I did and designate one of Jon and Dany's children (assuming they have more than one) as her heir, which is what is supposed to happen with Harry the Heir if Sweetrobin dies in the books. It's not the big crisis others are making it out to be. The writers strongly implied that the Nymeria scene foreshadowed that Arya is never going to settle down and will ultimately reject any form of domestication just as Nymeria did. Pretty obvious, really. I believe the writers said that Season 4 contains a lot of foreshadowing for the end of the series. I wouldn't be surprised if Arya's last scene in the show is similar to her last scene in Season 4: sailing off to new adventures in a new land (although I'm guessing Arya will be headed west of Westeros as Season 6 hinted, not to Braavos).
  12. "Sansa, Arya, Tyrion and multiple other major characters are highly unlikely to end up with anyone" does not mean "GRRM and D&D hate love." This isn't the kind of story where all the major characters pair off. GRRM has never written that kind of story in any event, and usually his male protagonists--like Tyrion--are perpetually disappointed in love. Also, in ASOIAF just as in many of his works, the relationships that do exist are often toxic, dysfunctional, or even outright abusive. It doesn't mean that "GRRM hates love," just that he's not writing a cheery rom com where everyone pairs up and no one dies. I'd say Jon and Dany have a decent shot at a healthy relationship--as healthy as it can get where Targs are concerned--and romantic happiness if they make it out of the series alive, and even that feels like a generous concession from GRRM. Anything more than that? Don't get greedy, LOL. Maybe the Stark line will end, who knows? Could be part of the "bittersweet" ending. One of Jon and Dany's hypothetical future children could take on the Stark name as the heir--a Harry the Heir-type arrangement--if needed. If Sansa does end up as an Elizabeth I figure, designating one of Jon and Dany's kids as her heir, James I-style, seems like a sensible solution. As it is, I find speculation assuming that Sansa--who was repeatedly raped by Ramsay so that she would birth an heir--or Arya--who has never shown any interest in romance and has always wanted to buck gender expectations--MUST settle down and become brood mares...highly unpleasant. Both Stark sisters have been compared to Cersei at various points in the show, and I think at this point they would react about as well to being forced into a life they didn't want as Cersei did.
  13. There most certainly is when you think that a lack of romantic love in a female character's ending, no matter how otherwise triumphant and successful that character's ending otherwise is, would be a "letdown," in your words. LOL, of course you do, because you ship it, but "They should get together because I think it would be best" is not an argument. Sure they are. Sansa is cool, clever, confident, and in control, and has successfully rid herself of Ramsay and Littlefinger. Nope. If that were true, Arya and Jon would be dead. Sansa believes in love and loyalty where her family is concerned. Sansa can still smile and joke, as she does with Arya in 7x07. She still has hope and faith. She just reserves it for people who deserve it, like Jon (who cares about Sansa, even if he doesn't always listen to her), Arya (who for all her issues ultimately loves Sansa and will put her first), and Bran (who lost any tact along with his personality but who will help Sansa out as needed). She has the same attitude as the Tyrells, who trusted each other but no one else; there's nothing wrong with that. It's not about "punishment," it's about the character learning valuable lessons that they can apply to their own benefit, even if that involves suffering and having to make hard choices. Arya, Jon and Bran's perspectives and skillsets have all come at terrible cost as well. Sansa is no more being "punished" by having terrible experiences with guys and realizing she can get what she wants without them than Tyrion would be being "punished" by having terrible experiences with women and deciding he's better off focusing on other things. It's about characters learning hard lessons from their experiences and growing as characters as a result. Why? Sansa has come to wish that she could be left to run Winterfell in peace without a man (even a kind, decent, well-meaning man like Jon) mucking things up for her, and Arya never wanted anything to do with romance or sexuality in any event. Forcing your own perspective as to what constitutes "true" happiness or fulfillment onto two characters who don't share it seems like a very limited way of viewing them.
  14. I've said my piece and you've convinced yourself that Bran/Meera still has a shot despite ample evidence to the contrary, so I don't think there's anything more to be said on the subject. The writers have pretty much admitted that Arya will never be "domesticated" in the sense of settling down as the lady of a castle married to a lord. Lady Arya Baratheon is off the menu. Going off the books, without reference to the show, there's really very little evidence that Gendry/Arya will be a thing. Book Arya is offered marriage to an "honest apprentice" by the FM and wants none of it. Book Gendry seems destined to marry Willow Heddle, a more class-appropriate version of Arya, and given Gendry's resentment over Arya's high birth, a girl like Willow is probably a better fit for him anyway. LOL, no. To D&D, TV Sandor is a dim bulb, good for dick jokes and swears. Not romance material. Pretty much this. That seems like a flimsy distinction. Sansa's fantasies have been very much tied up in marriage and babies. She did it with Joffrey and (in the books) with Willas. Silly fantasies about romantic, loving marriages and cute babies blinding her to harsh realities (Joffrey was a monster, the Tyrells only wanted to use her) are very much linked to the delusions she needs to be cured of. In the books, Sansa is already pretty sour on marriage. She's converging on TV Sansa's preference for power and autonomy, albeit through a different route. No, she dreamed of a romantic marriage that would make her happy and which would confer on her the status and lifestyle she craved. The best resolution for her arc would be to realize that marriage in Westeros is a shitty deal, that she doesn't need marriage to make herself happy, and that she can claim power in her own right. LOL, no. Sansa hasn't mentioned Sandor since Season 2, either directly or indirectly. Yes, because that's what the writers said. The writers described Nymeria as a "lone wolf." So the fact that Nymeria is surrounded by other wolves is immaterial to the writers' view of the similarities between Nymeria and Arya. They're both lone wolves. Again, the writers' comments strongly imply that the parallel they see between Nymeria and Arya is that they can't be domesticated or settle down. Cogman even said that the scene with Nymeria foreshadows Arya's fate (or words to that effect). She has been built up. She had her moment of triumph in Season 6, when she regained Winterfell and took revenge on her abuser, and again in Season 7, where she got rid of Littlefinger. Sansa reclaiming her home, claiming her power, and realizing that she much prefers running things without a man in the picture--even a well-meaning dolt like Jon--is only tragic if you subscribe to very limited ideas about how women can be happy. No, it's "This girl who subscribed to romantic bullshit about how she needs marriage to get the life she wants, got shuffled about as a pawn, learns hard lessons about the realities of life, eventually realizes that she can achieve everything she wants from life through her own power, and proceeds to kick ass and get everything she wants." That's not sad or a letdown. That's triumphant. That's an Oscar bait movie plot right there.
  15. Sure it was. Bran tells Meera "Thank you" for everything she's done? Check. Meera telling Bran that he died in the cave (meaning the person she cared for is long gone) and Bran not disagreeing? Check. It was a nice, if sad scene, and more closure than a lot of Meera-level minor characters have gotten. I agree. There's no suggestion that Bran is putting on an act. That's who he is now.
  16. Nope, she's gone. The goodbye scene is very clear. Her role in the show is over: she walks "out of the series," as per the script outline. Bran's back at Winterfell, doesn't need her anymore, and doesn't care for her anymore. LOL, sure. Did you miss the part where Bran didn't disagree when she said that? There's no indication of that. All indications are that Bran's personality has been irrevocably altered. Bran is no longer Bran; he's the 3ER. Meera telling Bran "You died in that cave" and Bran not disagreeing with her is perhaps the most obvious instance, but by no means the only one. The writers even started calling him "Dr. Branhattan," a reference to a comic book character (Dr. Manhattan) who after acquiring a similar sort of omniscience permanently loses his attachment to his humanity. Yes, and several episodes have elapsed since that pronouncement, during which Meera protected Bran and accompanied him to Winterfell. He did need Meera at the time, to see him safely back to Winterfell. Now he's back at Winterfell, with his family, and Meera's role in Bran's life is over. When Meera tells Bran that he doesn't need her anymore, Bran agrees. Again, not subtle. He did need her, to get him back to Winterfell. He doesn't anymore. Look, Bran/Meera is not going to happen. We've been told as much. You really don't have any kind of leg to stand on to argue otherwise.
  17. In fandom parlance as far as I know, endgame usually means "together at the end and alive." Because this isn't a fairytale about characters learning valuable lessons and self-actualizing. GRRM isn't telling tidy little parables about Having It All. Characters have to make hard, painful choices and give up things they value in order to get what they want. Sansa wants autonomy and power above all, and love/marriage would weaken her. Cersei warned Sansa that love would make her weak, and Sansa says that she learned a lot from Cersei, so... Dany and Jon are a lot younger and considerably less jaded than Tyrion, who (in the show) has never slept with a woman who wasn't being paid for the privilege. Not to mention that Jon and Dany are incredibly hot and lack Tyrion's complex about his looks, which has informed a lot of his issues with relationships for obvious reasons. Tyrion doesn't have any kind of romantic arc in the show post-S4, but then, he doesn't need one. It's much better for Tyrion to start accepting the love that is in his life from people who care about him as a friend--Jon, Varys, Bronn, Pod, etc.--than to chase after a romantic fantasy which is never going to be realized, which is how he got into trouble with Shae in the first place. His big postwar fantasy in the show--having a vineyard and inviting his friends to hang out--suggests to me that Tyrion grasps this. Tyrion seems to be very slowly inching his way towards this understanding in the books as well, in spite of his downward spiral in ADWD.
  18. Me, too. Not to mention that Sansa is unlikely to be keen on producing heirs after Ramsay repeatedly raped her with that goal in mind. The Bran Meera loved (and who cared for Meera) died in the cave, as Meera realized in that scene. D&D couldn't have spelled it out any more clearly. They're not big on subtlety. I agree. It looks like Jon and Dany's romance will bring the angst once Jon's parentage is outed as well, so there will be no shortage of romance-fueled drama in Season 8 from Jon and Dany.
  19. If D&D wrote Meera out of the series, which the preliminary outline strongly implies they did, they're not going to change their minds. Even assuming for the sake of argument that Meera does return, though, Bran/Meera is DOA. Their goodbye scene made that very clear. LOL, their love scene was longer than Jon and Dany's. If you think Jaime's making it out of the series alive, I have a bridge to sell you. What better culmination of her arc for Sansa, having dreamt of nothing more than marriage and having been used and abused as a marriage pawn for the entirety of the series, than choosing to abstain from marriage once and for all and being completely fine with it? Turning her back on romantic illusions and political marriage altogether in favour of her own autonomy and power is the perfect resolution to her arc. Why on earth why? As pointed out, Tyrion has had two canon romantic entanglements that ended very badly for him. He doesn't want love anymore, anyway; all he wants is a vineyard where he can throw parties for his friends. Give him his goddamn vineyard and leave the man in peace. The Bran Meera loved is dead.
  20. Nope. Meera's gone, permanently. The leaked outline spelled that out. What's with assuming multiple major characters are suddenly going to hook up in Season 8? Harry Potter this ain't. We already have three canon romances, and one of them is (apparently) the only one that matters: Jon/Dany. Jaime/Brienne might have a shot--although I doubt it will take the form of a capital-r Romance--but Arya/Gendry and Sandor/Sansa? LOL no. The cast and crew have been very clear that Brienne has no interest in Tormund; the whole thing has been played for laughs. I doubt that will change anytime soon. Doesn't mean Jaime/Brienne is any more likely, of course. Tormund's crush on Brienne is little more than a joke that D&D decided to run with because the fans loved it.
  21. I don't think there will be a lot of additional romance in S8. There are already three canon couples whose plotlines are converging or which have already converged: Jon/Dany, Sam/Gilly, and Grey Worm/Missandei. Jaime and Brienne might have a shot. Arya/Gendry and Sandor/Sansa are DOA in my opinion.
  22. A lot of the plot outlined in the 1993 letter did happen: Tyrion being blamed for Joffrey's murder and going into exile, Sansa siding with the Lannisters over her family and coming to regret it, Winterfell getting sacked and burned, the deaths of Joffrey, Ned, Robb, and Catelyn, etc. etc. GRRM has also said many times that the ending he's going towards is the same one he's had in mind since 1991. The outline quote is quite clear that in 1993 he intended to spare Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Arya and Bran despite doing his best to create the impression that no character is safe. That doesn't bode well for Sansa, since she is left off that list, and there's no indication that GRRM has upgraded her from her precarious status in the outline. If GRRM, who has said several times prior to the outline being leaked that he has always had the same ending in mind, wrote a letter in 1993 in which he... 1) tells his prospective publishers he intends to fool the audience into believing no one is safe, 2) provides a list of five characters who are safe (since they will make it through "all three volumes"), 3) includes three Stark siblings (well, cousin) on that list, and 4) leaves Sansa off that list... Any reader would be a fool not to pay attention to the potential implications of that for ASOIAF. At the very least, it rules Sansa out of any endgame queen scenario, as previously pointed out. I would also argue it rules out Sansa ending up with Winterfell, since GRRM no doubt intended that for one of the Starks he always planned on surviving the books.
  23. Whatever it is, it can't be any worse than Renesmee or Albus Severus.
  24. Two out of four ain't bad: I agree with @Cron:
  25. Why would the FM kill Arya? In the show universe, at least, it's all good between them.