Ghost from Winterfell

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About Ghost from Winterfell

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    Council Member

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  • Gender Male
  • Location Dreadfort
  • Interests Books, movies, fiction in general, music.

Ghost from Winterfell's Activity

  1. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic What character do you want to die?   

    Cersei, Petyr, Bronn, Daario, Olenna, Obara, Tyene, Nymeria, Ramsay, Randyll
  2. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic What is Euron exactly?   

    It's worth remember that, aside from Victarion and Aeron, Euron's biggest detractors are Asha, the Reader and Baelor Blacktyde. I would count them among the most reasonable and progressive Ironborn. All of them want peace, all three are also critical of Balon's lordship and ambitions. The Reader is a scholar, the most atypical Ironborn we've seen, he doesn't seem interested in reaving or raping. Baelor Blacktyde grew up in Oldtown and worshipped the Seven. He is also the one who accused Balon, Aeron and Euron of being mad.
  3. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Who was a ''better person'': Brynden Rivers or Tywin Lannister?   

    1. I beg to differ. But if you are not going to address my points no reason to discuss it.

    2. Yes, Cersei is ruling her own destiny, sure. It's not like her stupid mistakes are paving the way exactly like instigators like Varys and Littlefinger want. It's not like Genna, a woman who acquired influence herself, is shocked with her blunders or Kevan calls her "soiled goods" after the Walk or Jaime compares her to Aerys. And these are her allies. She is an inspiration? What evidence do you have that women in Westeros regard her as an inspiration? Do you have any quote to demonstrate that? Cersei didn't like an abusive king so she got rid of him? Is that your take on the event? According to you all that matters to establish the truth of something in the story is how the people of Westeros regard it. Well, the people in Westeros calls what she did High Treason, punished by death, so doesn't matter how much you shrug it off here and in other threads, according to your own logic, your opinion here is pure crap.

    3. Strawmanning? Where? I said you denied Queen Alysanne as a counterpoint for Cersei. You did. in your mind they are both successful. I pondered how she was able to do something significant, visionary and beneficial to society, a mark of true success in my opinion, unlike Cersei.

    4. I'm willing to believe liars when they give accurate analysis of someone in a situation when they have no reason to lie, in a way that suits their modus operandus to a T. Do you deny Littlefinger is a liar when it fits him? You also used his opinion as valid when discussing Eddard's responsibility in starting the war in other threads. However in that situation he had every reason to lie because he would throw Ned under the bus soon. He had no cause to lie about his opinion on Cersei's merits in front of Sansa.

    5. I guess there is no point in discussing then if you think you are so enlightened that you own the truth and everything you type is a fact and not your opinion.

    6. Any of these people committed incest, high treason, killed their king and are reviled by a lot of people in Westeros? Success is not only about the position you get, it's about what you do once you get there. Jaime screwed up. As a Kingsguard, he is the ultimate failure: he killed the king he was sworn to protect and betrayed the other one. He also failed to warn anyone about the wildfire. Not to mention the other things I mentioned earlier.

    7. Why did he get so angry at Jaime regarding his choices then? To say "you are not my son" is not something a father brushes off some hours later.

    8. ...

    9. Tyrions uncle got lost and is likely dead because of his trip to find Valyria. A suicide mission. Huge difference between Valyria and the Free Cities. It is amazing how you will try and twist everything around to make Tywin look good.

    10. When did I say he would clean the gutters himself? Do you have any evidence except your own bias that being in charge of cisterns was a suitable assignment for a noble child, akin to squiring?

    11. Yes, I was mistaken, I searched and edited my post before you answered it. You probably knew it because I only added the part about Queen Alysanne much later. Maybe you didn't. It doesn't matter. All you did was to dodge the bullet and not address the actual point. The fact is: Tywin was angry with his sister over that commentary.

    12. So why didn't he address these issues during his shitstorm instead of focusing on accusing Tyrion of killing his mother and being an ill formed creature, among others hateful things? And why didn't he say that after Tyrion admitted he did make the threats but only after he asked about Casterly Rock? Because Tywin has an overwhelming pride and sees Tyrion as a mockery from the Gods towards him. Being pissed off is one thing. Saying hateful stuff like this to your son is completely different. It shows you despise your son.

    13. Do you have any evidence Hoster wouldn't help Walder if he needed his liege lord? If he was still sane and active and not in his deathbed?

    14. So after his completely over the top and disgusting reaction do you think he still has the right to throw it in Tyrion's face years later? It hurts a lord's pride for sure, but if an already betrothed prince (Duncan) could get his way and marry a peasant (Jenny of Oldstones) defying his father, the king (Aegon), and basically ruining his plans to improve the smallfolk's lives, why couldn't Tywin simply null the marriage or find a more diplomatic solution? It is amazing how you will try and twist everything around to make Tywin look good.

    15. The least he could do was share his battle plans with him. It was sheer luck Tyrion didn't die in that battle.

    16. Doran never abused Arianne and he had a very good reason to be distant and not sharing his plans. Tywin has no such carefully hidden plot to justify his treatment of Tyrion.

    17. "meh"? Are you trivializing child abuse now because you think Tysha wasn't truly his wife? That is a new low. Also I love how you acknowledge Robert was abusive to the point you don't think it was a big deal Cersei murdering him but you merely call Tywin's depraved act "reprehensible". It is amazing how you will try and twist everything around to make Tywin look good.

    18. By "that" I meant all the quotes I gave of past interactions between Tyrion and Tywin that you denied existed and now found a way to twist to further your agenda. It's pointless arguing with you.
  4. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Who was a ''better person'': Brynden Rivers or Tywin Lannister?   

    Yes, Tywin was impressive in some ways. He was intelligent, diligent and hardworking, a a good politician and hellbent on having control over everything, which meant that under his rule house Lannister rose in station. He was also a dismally cruel man, a petty, bitter person, a moral coward whose elitism and brutal methods exceeded by far the norm among the nobles of his times. He focused on getting his children, specially Cersei and Jaime, powerful position because that was what he saw them primarily, tools to his own goals, but his neglect of giving them a moral guidance and genuine affection helped to turn them into the messy, reviled creatures they are now and tainted house Lannister's honor like never before in the history, after Aegon's conquest. So that is Tywin. A despicable person who was also capable of acquiring more wealth and power than was already given to him in his cradle. You can be a failure as a father and as a human being while still being wealthy and powerful.

    That doesn't make Cersei's achievements really impressive. She got a small council after she murdered the king and ruled through his children. When Tommen wants to exercise his authority she bullies him. That is her approach. Make sure people fear her and use daddy's influence to fulfill her desires. Once daddy is dead she goes on to screw everything for her family.

    Compare that to Queen Alysanne, the example you refused to acknowledge as a major counterpoint for Cersei. The good queen changed paradigms, showed true competency and compassion and actually did good to the people of the realm.

    Littlefinger has an interesting take on Cersei. He is a liar but he has no reason to lie in this occasion and his analysis is quite precise.

    “Yes, but don’t let that trouble you. You’re still half a child. Every man’s a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players.” He ate another seed. “Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches. Only the first of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then. She wants power, but has no notion what to do with it when she gets it. Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him.”

    I'm not ignoring my previous argument. I never said Tywin didn't want other Lannister's as partners in life. I said he as the leader of his house and older brother wanted one of his sons to inherent his riches and power and that Jaime rejecting everything he planned was a major strike on his ego. With that said I mentioned from the beginning that Jaime's decision over this matter hardly means he was a failure in my opinion. He is a failure because he is called Kingslayer for having murdered the first king he served, committed treason against the next one and plunged the realm in a war and finally is reduced to guarding his son, a bastard he can never acknowledge who should never be on the throne and whose kingship is a mockery of the very laws that guarantee Jaime's position in society. Jaime is trying his hardest not to be forever remembered as an oathbreaker and the Kingslayer but in the current state of things this still seems much more likely than Goldenhand the Just. With that said, Tywin still doesn't think a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was a great achievement for his son seeing how he tried the best for having him resigned, how he was furious when Jaime joined the brotherhood in the first place and how Aerys used it to spite Tywin and finally how he disowned his son after Jaime refused to be anything else than Lord Commander.

    If Tywin felt he had the same obligations his children had in his eyes he would have remarried and brought new alliances. He still thought he could have used his children/ tools to continue his legacy. Do you really think Tywin would be OK with Lancel or another one of his brother's or cousin's children inheriting Casterly Rock? Why he disowned Jaime over his refusal to marry? It was not a trivial thing for him. Tywin has a massive ego.

    No, it doesn't. It proves Tywin regarded Tyrion as a fool until this moment. If he bothered to have the minimal interest in his son's intellectual life he would know he was a scholar and well versed in lot of things, including politics. But, no. Only after years he recognized that he wasn't fit to wear a motley. Tyrion never reminisces about Tywin giving support him in anything. It was always about bringing him down. Tyrion remembers Gerion praising him for memorizing the seven wonders but not a mention about Tywin's approval is made. In fact, later on this happens:

    Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son’s sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. “My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister,” his father had replied. “Neither ever wed a whore.” And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, “No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning.” At that the boy’s defiance had crumbled.

    Is that encouraging his son to seek knowledge?

    Later he gives Tyrion an occupation, a rather shitty one. Reminds me a bit of Roose giving Reek as a present to Ramsay and his mother.

    “If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have,” his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

    Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. I wonder how he got this notion...

    He did not hate him? He spent half a year without speaking to Genna after she said Tyrion was more like him that Jaime.
    When you have a conversation like that with your son, do you think there is some level of affection involved in their relationship?

    Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. “Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.”
    The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.
    I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. “Why?” he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.
    “You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

    Sure, that doesn't show hate at all.

    Do you need more proof than that?

    But, of course, Hoster didn't attend two of Walder's wedding and gave him a nickname. That proves Hoster treated his bannerman like shit. Or maybe it's just that you like Walder and Tywin and can't have a unbiased opinion about them.

    Yes, he recognized Tyrion has a low cunning later on and he keeps him in a powerful position while still calling him a fool and a person who brought shame to house Lannister in occasions.

    I never said he wanted Tyrion to act like a fool. That would ridicule house Lannister and himself in the eyes of others and his ego can't afford that. Still, it's clear he was simultaneously neglectful and abusive in his relationship with Tyrion and never valued his intellect until very later on. Of course later he still took the time to throw a spectacular pile of insults on Tyrion that you can check above. And before he put Tyrion is a ridiculous dangerous situation during the battle of the Green Fork because he would not share his battle plans with a person who associates with savages.

    Do you think Tyrion's resentment is gratuitous?

    And LOL!
    He was not "a very great father". Are you kidding me? A father who put his son through a situation where he is sexually and emotionally abused while torturing his wife in a horrifying fashion is not great? Tell me about euphemism! He is one of the worst fathers depicted in the story. It's mind boggling actually.

    And you say we have no idea how they interacted before that scene in AGOT? Well, that should give you a pretty clear picture.
  5. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Who was a ''better person'': Brynden Rivers or Tywin Lannister?   

    It has to do because her paranoia, poor judgment, incompetency, self indulgement and cruelty are bringing her downfall. Because a lunatic like Cersei can never be called a successful person. It doesn't matter if she is a queen. She is a failure as a human being and that is what matters when JonCon'sRedBeard mentioned Tywin's children being failures. I can't speak for her but that is what I got from her commentary. Cersei, like Jaime and Tyrion, were born with a golden spoon in their mouths, so of course through Tywin's influence, specially in Cersei's case, they managed to stay on top of the social ladder. But due to their poor upbringing, they are morally bankrupted, bitter people prone to commit reckless, criminal acts that only managed to hurt them and others to the point house Lannister is seen worldwide in a bad light. Even the Widow of waterfront uses Lannister as a curse word against Tyrion.

    Tywin never married again because he is an hypocrite that insists his children should make political marriages but he himself married a cousin. Tywin is clearly disappointed by his children, including Jaime, whom he deemed "not his son" in their last conversation. He always expected his son to rule Casterly Rock after him and Jaime ruined this for him. Being a egotistical man, that clearly troubled him.

    “Yes.” Lord Tywin looked down at his son. “I had thought you were the one made for motley, Tyrion, but it would appear that I was wrong.”

    Apparently the fact that Hoster gave Walder a nickname and didn't attend his last two wedding is proof enough to say he treated his bannerman very badly but Tywin saying he always saw Tyrion as a fool while treating him with coldness and disdain all his life and inflicting him appalling abuse that obviously ended any flimsy chance of them bonding in the future is not enough to infer that Tyrion sought knowledge by his own volition and not due to his father incentive and that Tywin was an awful, awful father.

    I didn't say he discouraged Tyrion to seek knowledge. Don't put word in my mouth. Only that he never put faith on him or showed appreciation for him until he needed him after Jaime was captured.
  6. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Who was a ''better person'': Brynden Rivers or Tywin Lannister?   

    Robert was part of a rebellion, a coalization that united some of the most influential subjects of the realm against Aerys, earning most of the kingdom recognition as the new monarch. In the end everyone bowed down to him, as a Baratheon, founder of a new dynasty. Cersei used lies and treachery to put her illegitimate spawn in the throne. That is not comparable. The truth is that Cersei is a psychological mess, corrupt to the core and on the process of bringing her own downfall. She acquired power, sure, but managed to lose it in an espetecularly humiliating fashion. If we followed your line of thought Cleon the Great would be the most successful individual in the whole series, a true prodigy: from slave to king.

    Not the Lannister legacy necessarily but Tywin's progenity. Do you think having lost all chance of a son of him inherenting Casterly Rock was a minor setback for Tywin and his pride? He went so far as to disown Jaime, saying he wasn't his son anymore.

    So Tywin, the richest man in Westeros, gave a small part of his virtually unlimited resources for Tyrion's education? The son he despised and regarded as a fool, thus never truly encouraging his scholar pursuits? Sorry, but that doesn't even come close to compensate the fact he traumatized his son for life by ordering the gang rape of his wife and forcing him to watch and participate.
  7. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Who was a ''better person'': Brynden Rivers or Tywin Lannister?   

    She makes blunder after blunder. She is fucked up, a complete mess of a person and totally incompetent. You don't measure success solely by a person's social status. A monarch that is despised by the people and is on trial for numerous crimes is a failure. Cersei as a queen is a cancrous to her family and the whole realm. A lot of that is her own fault but Tywin certainly helped to exarcebate her failures.

    Jaime is a brilliant fighter, yes, but he refused to be Tywin's heir, which basically ruined the longevity of Tywin's legacy. Not that this matters too much to evaluate Tywin's role as a father but considering how important this seems to be to Tywin (and you) the general consensus is that Jaime was bellow his station as the firstborn of the richest and most influent family in Westeros.

    Tyrion is very intelligent but a lot of his worse aspects can be atributted to Tywin's abuse.

    Tywin was an awful father.
  8. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Did Tywin have so many fans before Charles Dance's portrayal?   

    That's from the show.
  9. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Did Tywin have so many fans before Charles Dance's portrayal?   

    All these definitions associate the idea of a villain to the figure of a vile, wicked person, a scroundel, which means a person who lacks principles. A person who lacks principle is likely to harm others for his/her own benefit, specially in a narrative that bases itself in conflicts.

    Of course there are variations. I challenge you to find a perfect definition. Fiction desconstructs a lot of concepts and creates others: anti-hero, anti-villain, etc. I just don't think a guy who murder babies challenges the basic concept of a "villain". Tywin suits the term to a T.
  10. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Did Tywin have so many fans before Charles Dance's portrayal?   

    Which dictionary?

    This one agrees with me:

    Also this:

    And this:

    And this:

    By the way: this dictionary you mentioned disagrees with you because a hero is not the same as a protagonist. A hero displays heroice qualities, so most of the time, the individual who opposes the hero is either misinformed about the hero's intentions or he is a "wicked" person, hence a villain.
  11. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Did Tywin have so many fans before Charles Dance's portrayal?   

    No, I'm not. He cherry-picked one element of the definition I provided while ignoring the rest. My point remains: Tywin is a villain, even though he doesn't enjoy to inflict pain for the sake of pain.
  12. Ghost from Winterfell added a post in a topic Did Tywin have so many fans before Charles Dance's portrayal?   

    My definition was surely incomplete and flawed but yours is entirely innacurate. That is the definition of an antagonist. It's not the same. A villain can be a protagonist and a hero can be an antagonist.