Frey family reunion

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  1. The ultimate threat isn't the game of iron thrones, and who is the "rightful" claimant to the Iron Throne, the ultimate threat is the darkness and conflict that exists within the human heart. So George needs to create a motivation for Mance and for his actions. And he creates one by creating a Lord Commander Qorgyle in ASOS. (after all what is the need for even having a lord commander that exists this recently before Mormont?) So Qorgyle is first mentioned in the ASOS chapter where Jon meets Mance. Then we learn of the tipping point for Mance deciding to leave the Night's Watch: Then conveniently enough, we learn of the sigil of House Qorgyle as Tyrion has Pod name the Houses based on Bronn's description of their sigils: We later learn through House Blackfyre and Bastard Walder that a royal bastard might adopt a sigil, the reverse of his father's. Now go back to Mance's meeting with Jon and see what Jon said that convinced Mance to take him in: So perhaps Mance is brought into the Night's Watch mainly because he is Lord Commander Qorgyle's bastard. If so, it has to be kept a closely held secret because a kiss is a crime. Yet the Lord Commander does father a child. And perhaps consciously or not he brings his son with him when he meets Lord Eddard and Eddard's sons. And Mance sees first hand how the sons, even the royal bastards are treated in the "south". My guess is that if Mance became aware of his relationship to the Lord Commander, then Mance starts to feel special. He's not one of the brothers any more, he's the Lord Commander's son. And when his cloak is torn and repaired, basically becoming an inverse sigil of his father's former house, his cloak starts to reflect how he sees himself. But unfortunately for Mance, not only is being the Lord Commander's son not entitle him to anything in the Night's watch, it is also a dark secret out of necessity, because the Lord Commander is not supposed to father any sons. So Mance can sympathize with Jon at this moment. Jon is Eddard's son, he knows he's special, but on the other hand his bastard birth casts him out of the head table.
  2. If Bloodraven is the Odin of the story, than Mance is probably it's Loki. And while I agree that Bloodraven is too old to have fathered Mance, GRRM can continue the parallels by having Mance be the bastard son of a younger Lord Commander along with a female "enemy" of his people, a wildling woman. I wonder if the theme of a Night's Watch commander's baseborn child with a wilding coming back to haunt the Night's watch is a recurring theme. Here is the description of Rattleshirt; and then Cotter Pyke: For George this is an unusual amount of description for two fairly minor characters in the story. And we have a lot of repeating similarities. Widow's peak, close set eyes and thin hair. (It's also the presence of a widow's peak that is our first clue that Alleras is in reality, Oberyn's daughter Sarella.)
  3. House Blackwood's primary colors are a red background with black crows and a white weirwood. But my favorite theory is that the black cloak with three red patches is the inverse of House Qorgyle's three black scorpions on a red field. Which would make sense if Mance was the bastard son of Lord Commander Qorgyle. And it appears the former lord commander did take an interest in Mance, since it was Mance that he took with him to Winterfell in his meeting with House Stark.
  4. I actually had the exact same thought as the Reddit poster, that Rhaegar came to the conclusion that he wasn't the Prince that Was Promised because he came to the realization that Aerys was not his father. Which also made me think that the Lady in Waiting that Aerys was cheating with may not have been Joanna but may have been the Princess of Dorne. So if Rhaegar was only Rhaella's son but not the son of Aerys, and Elia's father was actually Aerys, then Aegon would have been from the line of Rhaella and Aerys in an unconventional way. Elia being Aerys' daughter might also explain why Aerys consented to Rhaegar's marriage with Elia. If Aerys had a reason to believe that Elia was his daughter than that might have made this marriage arrangement more suitable in his eyes. Rhaegar may not have had a sister, but may have had a half-sister to marry. This theory is even more likely if Rhaella was trying to purposely prevent TPTWP prophecy by aborting any children she conceived with Aerys, explaining her many "miscarriages".
  5. Which, brings you in a circle to the Black stone Just thought id share for those that enjoy real world myth and possible inspiration of ASOIAF. Which is just fun to think about to me and consider Hp Love Craft mythos wrapped up in all this real world myth. Another interesting "black rock" is associated with the Phrygian goddess, Cybele. When her cult was imported into Rome,they also imported one of her symbols a black meteoric stone.: Initiation into her cult initially consisted of self-castration. One of her symbols was also a mural crown. This symbol can be found in ASOIAF as the gold painted crenellations on top of the Queen's crown tower.
  6. I assume that Varys is assuming that the Lannisters tried to kill Bran. ETA: specifically Jaime/Cersei
  7. I agree that this is a definite possibility. I've discussed this in a previous thread but I think it bears repeating here. I think the valyrian steel dagger with the dragon bone hilt is GRRM's "dragon's tooth". In the Greek tale of Cadmus, Cadmus slays a dragon that was held sacred to the God, Ares. Athena instructed Cadmus to take the dragon's teeth and sow them into the ground. Out of this rose an army of soldiers. A jewel or stone was then thrown in amongst the army which caused the army to fight amongst itself resulting in five survivors. Cadmus used these five survivors to build the city of Thebes. This tale also led to an expression, "sowing the dragon's teeth" to mean spreading discord or strife. When the Valyrian steel dragon is brought down to King's Landing, Littlefinger seizes the opportunity to use the Valyrian dagger (the dragon's tooth) to spread discord between House Lannister and House Stark, by claiming he lost the dagger to Tyrion. Out of this discord, Littlefinger basically creates two armies, armies led by Stark and Lannister which then fight among themselves. Ultimately Littlefinger plays both sides, betrays Eddard and strengthens his position within Westeros. A discord brought about by a valyrian dagger. Now, what if Littelfinger was not the first plotter to attempt to use this dagger to sow discord and pit two sides against each other in order to strengthen his position? In ASOS we learn that Mance Rayder travelled to Winterfell with a bag silver where he fell in amongst King Robert's royal train, along with other freeriders. We know that the catspaw assassin, may have also been a freerider that fell in amongst the King's procession, because he was no man of Winterfell: Now the question remains why would you give a catspaw ninety silver stags to kill a boy, and then arm him with a valyrian steel dagger which is probably worth a huge amount more than the bribe? In fact why arm him with a valyrian steel dagger at all when a regular dagger would do? After all you're just trying to kill a boy in a coma where the plan is to lure everyone else out of the room. And a better question is why would Joffrey give up a valyrian steel dagger to kill Bran? After all, that Valyrian steel dagger may have been the only Valyrian steel that either the Baratheons or Lannisters had in their possession. When Tyrion hears Joffrey say that he is no stranger to Valyrian steel, Tyrion comes to the conclusion that Joffrey must have been referring to that dagger. It seems that there was not a stash of other Valyrian steel that Joffrey could have been referring to. So if Joffrey values Valyrian steel so much, (as it appears by his joy at receiving 'Widow's Wail') why would he sacrifice his only Valyrian steel blade to put Bran out of his misery? Why not simply use a regular dagger that wouldn't be so dear to him? The only conclusion that I can come up with is that someone wanted to use the Valyrian steel blade to cast blame on the owner (Just like Littelfinger does, sowing the dragon's tooth). And if Mance at some point had access to Robert's wheelhouse, and had to guess which blade belonged to the King, he would probably have chosen the only dagger that was Valyrian steel, since that would be the most valuable dagger in King's wheelhouse. But unbeknownst to Mance, no one associates the dagger with Robert, because he only used one knife: So if Mance stole the Valyrian dagger wrongly assuming it to be Robert's, what does he gain? Well its' quite simple. He is planning on bringing his Free Folk army through the Wall, and he probably has a pretty good idea that the Night's Watch doesn't have the manpower to stop him. However, House Stark is always present to greatly supplement the Night's Watch's strength. So if Mance can cause discord between the South and the North, then this will force Stark to divert his army to the south, leaving him with one less enemy to contend with when he makes his march towards the Wall. Once again, using the Valyrian steel, the "dragon's tooth" to sow discord and create two armies to battle themselves which further helps the person who sows the discord. Now, the question remains, would Mance kill a young, crippled boy in a coma to further his goals? If Mance shares the same Wildling morality that his sister-in law, Val, has towards afflicted children then the answer may very well be yes. After all for Wildlings, killing a crippled child might very well be considered a "mercy". And when Catelyn encounters the catspaw assassin, how does the catspaw justifiy his actions?
  8. I think the purpose of the Dunk and Egg series is to tell the story of Summerhall which starts at the beginning of Dunk and Egg's relationship all the way to it's tragic end.
  9. I beg to differ. Joffrey as person behind the catspaw makes very little sense. Joffrey has nothing to gain by killing Bran, and killing Bran as a mercy isn't in his personality. Nor is there any reason for Joffrey to give the Catspaw a valyrian blade to cut the throat of a boy in a coma. Especially if Joffrey is fond of the valyrian steel, why lose it over this? A simple blade of sharpened steel would have been sufficient. Whoever gave the catspaw the dagger gave him the valyrian balde for a reason. If the blade belonged to Joffrey, or if it was just kept in the royal wheelhouse, then someone used it to lay blame on the Lannisters or the Baratheons. The wildlings seem to have very different ideas about killing children as a "mercy", then the kneelers do. As for Mance killing anyone else, you misunderstand my position. I agree with you that Mance isn't going to have a child killed just to start a war. But if the child is a crippled and considered dead already, then it may be that Mance's belief is that killing him would be a mercy to him. It's the manner that he delivers the mercy to Bran that may be calculated to cause discord between Winterfell and the King, which would distract Winterfell from Mance's army, leaving just the Night's Watch for Mance to contend with. So Mance steals the valyrian blade from the royal wheelhouse making the logical assumption that the most valuable blade in the wheelhouse probably belongs to the King. The only reason that this particular blade would be used to kill a child in a coma is to cast suspicion on the owner of the blade.
  10. There is another possibility. The dagger could have been Joffrey's and could have been kept with the royal wheelhouse, yet a third party, who had recently attached himself to the royal procession could have stolen the dagger for the express purpose of sowing dissension between the King and Winterfell, if in fact this third party assumed the dagger belonged to King Robert. I think Martin is using the valyrian dagger with a dragonbone hilt as a stand in for the "dragon's tooth". In the Greek tale of Cadmus, Cadmus kills a dragon and then sows the ground with the dragon's teeth to create an army. Afterwards a gem or stone is thrown amongst the army which creates in fighting and the surviving five soldiers helps him form the city of Thebes. Thereafter "sowing the dragon's teeth" became almost synonymous with causing discord. This is exactly what Littlefinger does with the dagger. He deftly takes ownership of the dagger and crafts a story that causes discord between the Starks and Lannisters. Ultimately Littlefinger sides with the Lannisters and greatly benefits. In out tale Littlefinger uses the "dragon's tooth" to both sow discord and create a catspaw army for himself which is used to take down Stark's forces in King's Landing. What I wonder, is if this was what was attempted in Winterfell. Did Mance steal the dagger and hire the catspaw to kill Bran to turn the Starks against the King? This would help distract the largest military force in the North and turn their attention southward when he made his attempt to bring his wildling army past the Wall. The only problem was, no one made the connection with the knife and Robert or Joffrey.
  11. To the OP, because they were all out of gum?
  12. Boy that escalated quickly, I mean that got really out of hand fast
  13. I don't have a problem with your main theory. I personally don't think that Dany is the daughter of Rahella, and Dany as Ashara's daughter I consider one of the main possibilities. It's an interesting thought about the blood and broken promises as being associated with the assassination attempt on Dany, but I do have a few questions. Forgive me if you have already covered this, but how would Eddard know that Visery's "sister" who is the subject of the assassination attempt was Ashara's daughter as opposed to Rahella's daughter? Eddard would not have been aware of a Ashara's daughter being brought to Braavos to pose as Visery's sister, or would he have?
  14. Zombie Lyanna is my little jest. If her palms were what the "dead and black" were describing as opposed to the rose petals, than it would invoke Coldhands and the wights, thus Zombie Lyanna giving birth, ah nevermind. As for the flowers, who knows. Even though I find it much more likely that they were Lyanna's defense to the smell of her own upcoming mortality. But I'm a lot less sentimental than most. As for the original "crown" I assume that Brandon probably threw it in the garbage on the way out of the tourney grounds.
  15. No I agree via the climate. Which is why I say it's like a hybrid of Venice and Lankhmar, a fictional city at the foot of a salt water swamp. But perhaps colder than both. I think it's clear that we should doubt that the lemon tree of Dany's memory was in Braavos: