Manderly's Rat Cook

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About Manderly's Rat Cook

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    Landed Knight
  • Birthday 11/12/1984

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    http://www.amberdelange.com

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    Female
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    Asshai by the Shadow
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    Dark Art

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    Amber

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  1. Here's some really wild further speculation ; I think that the books containing information on the original purpose of the NW may have been destroyed in the fire in the WF library, or may have been in the book that Lord Bolton burned in Harrenhal. It's also quite likely that Old Nan is dead, so the information in her head could be lost... But what if she read from this book in front of the weirwood, to one of the Stark children in her younger days? This would open up the possibility of Bran finding out the truth through the weirnet, and may even have influenced Bloodraven's decision to leave the Wall. This is rather wild speculation, but worth a thought I think.
  2. @direpupy and @Macgregor of the North I'm glad the two of you could work this out, and we're not stuck at the same point in the discussion anymore As to the idea that Lyanna stayed in Harrenhal; this makes sense, but it would also diminish the role of Old Nan, to someone who just told a story, which doesn't really require that she's a runaway bride herself. Any story of a runaway bride would've worked in this context, so I've been thinking about what other purpose there could be. And I assume there are several smaller ones. I got back to thinking about the uniqueness of a wet nurse that could read and write, and Old Nan spending a lifetime on reading all the books in the WF library to generations of Stark children. And I tried to connect this to "all crows are liars"... (First I thought that that sentence would be connected to Bloodraven, but Bloodraven is only one crow, and no matter how many ravens he may also be, he'll never be ALL crows.) I think that Old Nan found something about the origins of the Night's Watch in one of those books, something about their original purpose, that would turn all of them into a liar, simply by saying his vows. I obviously don't know what this secret is, and I suppose it belongs in another thread, but I think one of her stories about this subject, may have influenced Benjen's decision to join the NW, and that Benjen may have been on a decades long quest to find out the truth about the NW, the wildlings, and the Others. If Old Nan influenced both Lyanna in her decision to run away, by telling her own story, and also influenced Benjen's decision to join the NW, and also find out more about NW history, the purpose of her (presumed) history becomes more clear. The combination of a runaway bride,working as a common wet nurse, who is extremely knowledgeable of Westerosi history due to her ability to read, and spending her life with children who like stories, has influenced many events that are vital to the story, if they turn out to be true. I hope we'll meet Benjen again in Winds, so we can hopefully find out if his decision to join the watch was influenced by an Old Nan story, about how the NW had forgotten their own history.
  3. Regarding Shadrich/Reed- Motivation for Blackwater. ?

    This seems rather far fetched... But hell, who cares, I'll play along   There's no reason to assume that Shadrich joined Stannis on Dragonstone. Most hedge Knights and sellswords join an army in the march, so he probably joined shortly before the actual battle. I suppose he may simply be saving Sansa. If KL fell, the Red Keep would follow as well, and Sansa would probably be raped. If he'd be the first to reach her, he'd have a chance to protect her, and also get her out, and bring her safely to Robb, or his swamp. He'd probably do it for Ned, friends tend to help the offspring of their friends, or at least try to. This was also the first opportunity to get into the Red Keep, and reach Sansa.
  4. It's not Alys Karstark, either

    Thanks, I was just contemplating whether there were any other girls that could be linked to the word 'grey', and when Asha came up I suddenly saw the link to ashes as well. Good find. Asha makes sense for practical reasons as well, since we now have two POVs with Stannis, and Davos will also arrive at some point I suppose. So there's a set up for a POV to leave, and Asha as a captive will get boring. Jon Snow is also her best option to run to, and now that there are black brothers with Stannis, she will probably hear about the spearwives at the wall.
  5. It's not Alys Karstark, either

    I'm not entirely sure if it isn't just Alys, but it's nice to speculate. I wonder if it couldn't also be Asha Greyjoy. Because Asha Greyjoy, sounds a lot like Grey Ashes. Asha also has spent a lot of time contemplating the possibility that Stannis would decide to burn her, and she's definitely not the kind of girl to meekly wait until that happens. In that case the lake would still be Long Lake of course, and the lake wouldn't be just starting to freeze over. Although it does seem to be slightly warmer around the Wall than at WF, which is peculiar by itself.
  6. It's not Alys Karstark, either

    @DutchArya I think your Dutch as well looking at your name lol, didn't realise that in my previous post. Anyway I'd like to add that I think that GRRM didn't think the whole climate thing through to be fair, since the area's that seem to have a sort of Mediterranean climate (like the reach), don't really have anything like the Mediterranean Sea or the 'right' surrounding of mountains to make it work entirely in real world terms. Also the stormy, and apparently not specifically warm climate in the stormlands, doesn't really seem logical looking at its location roughly between the reach and the Crowlands, same goes for the depressing weather on Dragonstone... So we can safely assume that apart from the weird, unstable seasons, the climate doesn't really follow real world logic. However, there are regional climates that can be roughly compared to real world climates, whether this is entirely logical going by their location or not. So I think it's relatively safe to make some small predictions about how the weather may behave in specific areas in winter. So I'd still say that even though summer may be hotter in KL, winter could possibly be colder, and even though it may start snowing earlier in the Riverlands, the snows in KL may still be thicker, and less wet, and lakes and rivers may freeze over thicker, and more quickly, and take longer to melt. It truly depends on what George wants though.
  7. It's not Alys Karstark, either

    Well I'm no hero with distances, so I did some googling, 10 leagues appears to be about 55 km, or 34 miles, and the distance between Casterly Rock and Lannisport is 40 miles according to a reddit entry, so let's say she would be more or less as far removed from Harrenhal as Casterly Rock and Lannisport, since we don't know how exact these 10 leagues estimation is... It seems that Harrenhal is right in the middle of the North bank, if we look at this map, and the God's Eye is sort of egg shaped, so whether you'd choose East or west, you'd always be going more or less south (or at least within 40 miles/ten leagues). So in my opinion it would work. Climate is not really consistent, as in that it doesn't get warmer or colder in equal amounts the further you go south. I live in the Netherlands for instance, and, although our location is quite far up north, we rarely have very harsh winters. This is because our climate is quite humid. It's often cloudy,or rainy, which causes mild temperatures, so not very hot during the day, and relatively warm during the night, while for instance the south of France can have much colder nights in winter, and even in summer. It rarely gets colder than 3-4 degrees Celsius below zero here, which is not all too different than what you may see in the south of France, or even Spain. It's just a different sort of weather, with much less sun, and less extreme temperatures than elsewhere. We usually get loads of wet snow, that melts as soon as it touches the ground, and I can imagine that it would be similar in the Riverlands for most of the winter. I think the climate in the Riverlands is quite similar to the Netherlands (we have lots of water/rivers here as well), and may even have served as an inspiration to George. The Riverlands seem like THE rainy area in the books, and this humid weather would keep it from being much colder in winter than King's Landing. Whether or not the ice would've melted, depends a bit on how how hard the lake had been frozen before, and how hot the false spring was exactly. So it's rather hard to judge. I think it's not impossible, but it depends a lot on the exact circumstances.
  8. Why women don't take black

    I doubt that most of the Black Brothers are allowed to visit their families. I personally think that right is only reserved for lordlings (who also happen to be more traceable if they desert), and possibly only the ones who joined out of free will. I may be wrong, since the only example we have of a black brother going on a family visit, is Benjen (and it seems that Jon would've gotten permission at some point as well), so it may happen more often, but there's no indication that it does.
  9. It's not Alys Karstark, either

    This is why I suggested Lyanna earlier, we haven't seen any past visions from Mel, but she's supposed to have those as well, and I always wondered why we didn't see any past visions, and how Mel could possibly know the difference. Besides, Lyanna's the connection to Jon is stronger than the Alys one. I also have the idea that Mel's visions are usually Targ related, which would fit nicely with the theories about Mel being Bloodraven's daughter. Lyanna is also connected to Rhaegar, Jon and even Robert, who all have Targ blood. Lyanna would also be grey, and turn to ashes, since her fire has already burned out. Exactly, and the tourney in Harrenhal was in the year of the false spring, so after these events, winter would start again and the gods eye would freeze again.
  10. I did read all your posts, but it's always hard to remember exactly who said what during the entire concersation. To me it seemed like you didn't want this theory to work (which is fine), and picked out one unlikely suggestion on the execution of the escape plan, and used that to argue that the whole theory can't work. It's something I've seen happening a lot on this forum, and it's not very constructive. It would probably have helped of you would've stated clearly that it was only this minor point you disagreed with, and not the whole possibility of an escape. Now I think all of us have slightly different views on how young lady Butterwell would execute her plan, and h that is fine. I personally think she'd never go to Bloodraven at all, because he was known to be a rather ruthless man, not necessarily cruel, but not the kind of person a 15 year old girl would turn to for help. Even I, as a 32 year old woman, would probably look to a friendly dude, who turns hot inside his helmet when I puff out my chest, for help before a cold, and hard man three times my age, who's in a position of power. Female intuition would tell this girl, that the big blushing boy would be more inclined to help her than Bloodraven. Just my opinion though. I often get a bit frustrated myself when I read a topic, and nobody makes the suggestion(s) that seems most obvious to me. I often wonder how they can't see it, and sometimes it pisses me off, but everybody has their own thought process, and your logic may not make sense to others. I think it's best to just make the suggestions yourself, and see if others agree, or let it go. :-) So... If I understand correctly, you agree that this theory could work, even though we all seem to have slightly different ideas about the how. Perhaps we can speculate a bit on what purpose it would serve in the story? I think that's the most interesting part. I made a suggestion in my previous post, but perhaps you and others have other suggestions as well. Unless you think this theory is possible, but are convinced it's not true. That's also fine of course, but there just wouldn't be much to discuss. I agree that, except for the people who helped her, nobody would've known her identity, and the people who helped her (Dunk&Egg and possibly someone in WF) would also have kept their mouths shut. I agree that there are some difficulties, like with every other theory, but they're minor imo, and could easily be solved. I think Hodor's real name is a pretty strong hint towards a Frey connection, and since this seems to be the only possible connection with textual evidence, I think it's nice to speculate as well. I made some suggestions about a possible purpose it could serve in the story in my previous post, perhaps you have ideas about that as well
  11. Thanks Macgregor! I propose that we stop debating whether or not it's possible that Old Nan is Lady Butterwell. I think we have provided enough reasons to show that it's at least possible, and if anyone feels it's too unlikely, and we keep discussing that part, the discussion is going nowhere at all. So I propose we start discussing what purpose Old Nan being lady Butterwell would have in the story. So.. My opinion is that Old Nan has played a part in Lyanna's storyline. We haven't seen any of the Stark kids being particularly close to Old Nan, other than that they see her as the funny old lady who tells the best stories. But that doesn't mean that no child would've been particularly close to her. A nanny spends huge amounts of time with children, and Old Nan was quite a bit younger in those days. I think Lyanna may have went to Old Nan with her doubts about her marriage to Robert, and her possible love for another man. It's likely that someone who took their fate into her own hands, would advise others to do the same. So Old Nan may have advised Lyanna on what to do, and how to do it. It would also complete the circle of "women of Winterfell", who all seem to escape, and take a different identity. The girl who looks like the girl who escaped her marriage, names herself after an old lady, who turns out to be a girl who escaped her marriage. (with a name derived of the name of a woman who fled with thousands of people, and herself, in order to escape slavery) Wheels within wheels within wheels. Then we also have Sansa, who escaped her marriage during a wedding in order to live the life of a bastard. Poor Jeyne Poole who takes the false identity of the girl who has been hiding as a common girl named Nan for a marriage, that she subsequently flees from, disguised as a servant. In the near future there will likely be an attempt by Jeyne Stark - Westerling to escape, not specifically from a marriage, but it's marriage related anyway. And there's Cat, who escaped death (where she would be reunited with her husband, or at least I think that's what she believes) in order to live the life of the vengeful undead leader of a band of outlaws. The only other female figures I can think of, that are connected to WF, that have not somehow escaped, and changed their identities, are Beth, Septa Mordane, and arguably Kyra (of whom you could reason that she escaped by death, and changed her identity to a dog, but that's a bit far fetched) Anyway Old Nan being an escaped lady with a new identity, fits in nicely, and would make a cool connection to a past, where this is something that repeats itself, in one form or another. So I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.
  12. You're right about the faith being necessary for formal annulment, but there's no reason to assume she would want that. I've given plenty of examples of highborn girls/women who fled and/or traveled anonymously. It's really not that hard to run away, especially when no one has reason to think you will. Your argument that she'd ask Bloodraven for help doesn't make sense. By all accounts Bloodraven is, and was a rather terrifying man, and there's a strong, friendly looking dude, who she seems to be attracted to, and who's also attracted to her. That's a way more obvious choice for a 15 yo girl. Gilly also chooses fat, friendly, and frightened Sam over Jeor Mormont for her request for help, even though the Old Bear was in a position he could've helped her better. Why? Because he wouldn't have helped her. Same goes for Bloodraven. Then there's also this: she may have asked for help 'escaping', but it's just as likely that she did the escaping by herself, and just caught up with Dunk and Egg later on. She was not in a position where getting away would've been very hard, since she wasn't a prisoner, and Lord Butterwell wasn't Ramsay or Joffrey. Again here's a list of girls and women who managed to sneak away unnoticed or escape somewhere, or keep their identity hidden. Most of them in much more difficult circumstances: Cersei (as Queen) multiple times, Arya all the time, fArya, Alys Karstark, Sansa, Catelyn, Gilly, Lyanna twice, and possibly Ashara Dayne... It's really not all that unlikely. And it's completely in Dunk's character to help her. Now I'm not saying it has to be true, although I think it's an interesting notion, I'm just saying that your argument that there is too much fantasy needed to make it work really isn't valid, since there are loads of in world examples of girls running away against much greater odds.
  13. Yeah we have lots of examples of girls running away, I didn't even think of Alys Karstark before, who was also held captive, or poor Jeyne Poole... And Old Lord Butterwell certainly was no Ramsay. Besides that we have countless examples of women dressing up simply, and not being recognised; Cat along the Kingsroad with Rodrik Cassel (it would've worked the whole journey, if they hadn't run into Tyrion, Cersei dressing up as a serving girl to wave to Jaime at the tourney, with her own husband present, and doing the same to fuck Jaime in the Sept next to her father's corpse, and according to her she's done this many times. This is the Queen of the seven kingdoms, so why would something like that suddenly be impossible for the wife of some random Lord, who's just been declared a traitor? Old Nan being lady Butterwell may also turn out to have played a part in Lyanna's escape, and how she managed to do it. It wouldn't surprise me if we find out later that old nan has been telling a story about a young girl, who ran away with a hedge knight, and a Targaryen Prince to flee from her old, mean, traitor husband. Sansa would love it, and Arya probably as well, for different reasons. Thinking further about Old Nan reading the entire WF library also makes sense, since a wetnurse/nanny would probably read stories to children (that is, if she can actually read), making boring books more exciting with a pinch of imagination. If you do that for 80 years, you'll probably know all the stories by heart.
  14. The Arya as Nan story, of a highborn girl hiding in a castle as a common servant (who happens to be engaged with a Frey at the time), would be a nice mirror of young lady butterwell hiding as a common wet nurse in Winterfell. If she was indeed a highborn girl with a great interest in stories, this could also explain the incredible amount of stories she knows; she could've read the whole (respectable - according to Tyrion) library of Winterfell. I don't think she would've asked for Bloodraven's help to be fair, I think she would've just run away, with Dunk and Egg, or have followed them. I don't see how it would've been very hard for her to escape. She wasn't a prisoner, and all she had to do was sneak away at some point. Nobody would expect her to do that, so nobody would be trying to prevent her from doing it. Lyanna managed to run away, and Arya managed to escape King's Landing, where half the gold cloaks where actively looking for her, and again she escaped during the fight with Amory Lorch, and again from Harrenhal, and AGAIN from the BWB... Even Sansa managed to escape the Red Keep. I don't see why it would be a stretch to assume young nan may have escaped her marriage at Harrenhal or later, without getting caught. Especially when she had some help from Dunk & Egg. I can totally imagine Dunk playing the knight in shining armor to sexy lady Butterwell, while Egg tries to explain endlessly why this is a stupid idea. There's no reason at all to assume she'd have to travel in a covered wagon to hide her identity. She could simply wear peasant's clothes. Lord Butterwell didn't have a huge army to find her, and he wouldn't know in which direction they left. If they stayed off the Kingsroad for a decent amount of time, and put some effort into hiding their tracks (which even 10 year old Arya knew how to do), they'd be safe in a matter of days. There's also no reason to assume that anyone in Winterfell would've known who she was. She could simply have told them she was a common girl from the Riverlands who learned how to read and speak 'highborn' from her parents, who happened to be in the service of some minor house. You know... Like Arya did, when she played Nan. I also think her great grandson's name is Walder, because that's the name she gave to her own son, in memory of her family, and names tend to stay in families, so her son and grandson named their sons Walder as well. Nobody would bet an eye if some servant happened to name her son Walder.
  15. Well Renly already raised Loras to his kingsguard, or rather rainbow guard, who I assume swore vows of celibacy, so Loras seems out of the question. However Willas would be still available, but Arianne would probably see it as another slight, and refuse. She might have refused Loras for the same reasons, since everybody seems to know he's gay, but she probably would've accepted Loras, since he wasn't crippled or old. Obviously Doran could demand she married anyway, but he seems to be set on giving her a choice in the matter, so I think he wouldn't have forced her.