wolfmaid7

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About wolfmaid7

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    High Priestess of the King Heretic
  • Birthday 08/26/1980

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  • Location California
  • Interests Magic,Mythology,Cultural Anthropology,Global Health and Epidemiology.

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  1. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

    So i'm looking at my section,the entire section of "the clues to intimacy" again and i have to disagree with you. Its nothing to own up to or not it's what people chose to pick out. If others could read it and follow the flow and you and a few people can't then you can't and you took something else away. For instance the line about Lyanna being territorial is proceeded by she wouldn't or shouldn't have a problem with Robert fathering a bastard with "some girl" if she didn't have feelings for him. It urked her and in the vein of that same thinking. Let's switch it to a hypothethical situation with Rhaegar who had kids not by "some girl" but his wife and somehow you all don't see a disconnect with that? Not that i can't see how you and some could have read it i understand that's why when Ygrain asked for clarification i told her it doesn't mean Robert was banging Lyanna presently it just means he grew to love her and when the right moment happened and i stold her specifically "Harrenhall." it happened it was intended to show a process beginning with the fact that they had history they knew each other and weren't strangers. The point i made in the essay is that Lyanna already had feelings for Robert that's why she was upset about "some girl in the Vale"That's also why all the quotes came before so we could see such thing like behaviors etc. But that's not my issue Nanother and its not the thing that's upseting me because when i clarified it with you that was the end of it we could move on from that.That's not what's provoking me,what's provoking me is that i told Ned's little girl 7 times now this is what it meant and why.......But she is still repeating something else......So you tell me wouldn't that urk you a bit? So what's her intent behind going back to what she thought over and over if it was clarified? Are you doing that?  Now to the Rhaella question i said to you now twice that i don't think she is Rhaella's daughter.I think she is Rhaegar's and definitely not by his mother.Let me ask you something what does Rhaella look like? Has anyone described her has the author?  Aerys has had Rhaella more or less on lockdown for years since he believed she was cheating that's why she was having so much miscarriages.So what does the Aerys do have two Septons sleep with her .Viserys was kept away from Rhaella because Aerys even suspected the Queen of trying to harm him. He stayed with or had Viserys with him always.But then we have something strange at Harrenhall Barristan states the queen was not present but back at KL with Viserys. Nothing is heard of her until Jamie mentions seeing her get into the Royal wheelhouse,which again he didn't see anything. So overall it does make a difference because you can't say Rhaella was ever pregnant when ever she left KL.   I'll come back to the Beltane thing in a bit...got to run  
  2. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

    I don't think its a huge jump at all thinking what the jokes were about had to do with him and women. There is a separation between his intelligence and what his father's knights joked about. Kingmonkey you are still caught up on thinking that because the maypole was in Rhaegar's hand that it means that he was the one that was apart of the sacred marriage....It doesn't. He is just the chorus the one telling what happened.But unlike it being a joyous occassion in real it brings anger. Even when you try to superimpose the ritual on the story he doesn't match up and you are trying to force Rhaegar to fit a mold he doesn't fit.Robert's boar hunt is the vehicle by which the horned god dies which is what he's suppose to do.Its not a failure it is making way for the next incarnation.That Robert went out by a Boar is actually pretty sweet because it was a horned animal that did him in directly.Something of the forest where he belongs.And your point about him not wanting to be King is spot on but translate the myth which was he better at? Everything that set him apart and stamps that archetype on him.A horned God.So you assuming that the symbolism is Rhaegar usurping Robert as horned god because he had the maypole "in his hand." is theproblem and a desparate attempt to have him fit.He has an archetype and he fits as the one telling what was done.But it wasn't done for praise or hope or jubilee. Erm if the symbolism weren't there to be recognized then i wouldn't have recognized them.That's how i know what symbolism he's using.That's sense Kingmonkey no different than the several other people on this forum including you that he is following X and Y. I'm simply saying that i recognize the ritual and the elements.If it wasn't there i wouldn't have seen them.  Kingmonkey i disagree  because of the tone in context It was said sarcastically and matter of fact that alone is a dead give away that it meant nothing more than that.And its easy to see why he would think that if he was speaking about men in general as he know them to be  and Rhaegar didn't seem to jive with that.And we see that foundation laid with what his father's knights thought.Now this being something that was said of him as a child or teenager doesn't mean that idea about him didn't follow into his adulthood. Kingmonkey does the text give a time specific of Stannis's arrival on DS in relation to when Darry left? So no i don't thin that Stannis would have been asking to see any body. And as i said a few times now "babe" is a very expansive term in this story.Dany could have been 1 year and considered a babe.And i don't think Stannis would be asking any specifics about how old the child was.By the way i said i believe that Dany is Rhaegar's so i don't think Rhaella is the mother. We know Melissandre was under the hood because everyone who saw her hooded was looking at her and talking i.e Davos and Jon. Secondly, come on now Kingmonkey give me s situation where Melissandre was fleeing from somewhere whereby concealment was even called for. You pulling my legs with that one are you Why would Rhaella have a black eye? There is no reportsof Aery's beating Rhaella only that he liked rough sex when he burnt a man. Can you supply a text that he beat up the Queen? Every source gives the story based on the belief that Rhaella went to Dragonstone with Viserys and there was a babe there so that had to be Rhaella's.That's it.  
  3. Heresy Project X+Y=S+L=J

    I  get what you are saying yet i still think its simple as Ned made a WAG ( wild ass guess) as we are prone to do sometimes from superficial info. When Sansa says he's a Lion like his mother and nothing like that drunk old king i would imagine a light bulb went on and he focused on "he's a Lion" as well.Sometimes its a guess and its a guess that pays off which is what Ned did with Cersie. He made a guess about Jamie and Cersie confirmed it.And i'll say that Ned probably made the same assertion that some of are saying.He thought she's very close to Jamie,Jamie had frequent contact with her so it must be him.A process that is very illogical i agree but in this case it was right.It's not an odd guess,that's why it's a guess.He used superficial observation and just threw it out there. As to the other i'm sure it will come up in the Reflections thread so i'll hold it till then.  
  4. Heresy Project X+Y=S+L=J

    Ygrain that whole Lyanna must have been staying at the Whent's don't make sense.Wouldn't it make sense considering all that happened for Lyanna not to be there? Furthermore, if it was about teaching Lyanna the ways of a sudden court why not go to River run and stay with the Tully's so she could learn from Cat and Lysa. That would also ensure she would also be there for the Wedding anyway.
  5. Heresy Project X+Y=S+L=J

    1. Agreed on the first bolded 2.True  3.Nah Kingmonkey any many would want to know who he was cuckhold with and Robert would want to know that.Same thing with Jamie when he found Cersie was messing around .Its not enough to know its curiosity to want to know who with.If Ned was was going to come to Robert with this info he would have to know who with because Robert would ask. 4.The red bolded is a shock coming from you as you recognize the specificity of the pairings and what was excluded. 4. I agree the Bran factor doesn't link Cersie to Jamie i think it was just simple observation by Ned and a wild guess which Cersie didn't deny.
  6. Heresy Project X+Y=S+L=J

    I'll preface this by saing that i dont buy that Lyanna was abducted but for the purpose of the arguement and people held beliefs. 1. Ygrain when you brought this up before i was confused by it because 10 miles from Harrenhall could mean 10 miles in any direction .So how is that rebuttal relevant? 2. I'm also confused by the second point as in i have no recollection that Benjen accompanied Lyanna during the time she "went missing" If she wasn't going to the wedding as you somehow seem to think (though wrongly) then neither of them were going so where was he taking her? 3. I never heard that one either. 4.They are kinda connected  true .Up until Lysa's letter got there and named the Lannister and the Queen as Arryn's murder(s) Ned thought it was natural causes.He didn't have cause to think Bran's fall wasn't an accident until Cat got there. 5.The bolded i'm shocked considering your arguements
  7. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

    1. Lyanna was not banging Robert to keep him faithful you keep saying that and i keep telling you no that is not what the essay says.The essay says and i quote Lyanna and Robert like a few couples at Harrenhall got caught up in the atmosphere and they had sex.The sum from the essay is below. Sum: Lyanna wed what was well known and loved about Robert (his laughter) to what signified home (Weirwood heart tree) on her shield. As we peel back the onion the picture emerges of two people who had history and a lot in common joined together for politics and despite the bride’s concern and the groom’s past they developed a mutually physical and emotional relationship. Love.   That quote by me was directed at something Ygrain said about exepecting a husband to be faithful and that went off in a tangent and i have no idea how it got there.So please stop saying something i didn't say especially when i came back and told you 6 times or so that's not it.Its coming off as really dishonest by continually ignoring.Again stop with this tactic its getting old. There was nothing to stop them from having sex except social expectations which are continually dismissed for one reason or the other;circumstances and mutual feelings create the situations for it.Lyanna wasn't going to withold herself from him because at that point, time had passed between the bethrothal and Harrenhall...Time enough as i said in the freaking essay for Lyanna's feelings to change and or remain the same.And she didn't deny him because she grew to love him simple as that.Not because she wanted to keep him from sexing anyone else that is stupid. If Robert wanted to bang someone else he would.He didn't. Look at Cersie's characterization of Robert " He wanted to be loved so he went where he got it." She called it a sickness that Tyrion had as well. You have the entire "clues of intimacy portion" That deals with Robert's behavior how intimates talked about Robert and hislove for Lyanna his own actions and words the whole "KOTLT" part and you and Ygrain come away with i said Lyanna banged Robert because she didn't want him to eff other women.....That entire thing and you call me dishonest while trying to make this into something its not.This is one of the reasons here i didn't waste my time answering....These underhandedness Again Ned's little girl the dishonesty is on your part.And i really am not going to answer people who choose to use that tactic. You see how simple Nanother got an answer and reading the context saw it or how Kingmonkey got his answer.I echo my same statements and its not and insult but critical thinking is something you don't posses and that's what it is. So i answered your first already,now to your second. Rhaella was a decoy because GRRM the author has placed an element in here that should make the careful reader question who is under the cloak.He has emplyed it before but alas you never paid mind to it: a.Cersie with Jamie 2.Daenys and Baelor  3.Jon with the nights watch All utilized an act of concealment by hood and cloak or dressing up as someone else. There was jo fresh floweres at the tower of joy a critical mind would have suss that out instead of coming up with potpouri and seed transplantation. If it was there it would have been mentioned because it would be something out of sorts with the region. The reason to think that everyone is wrong about Rhaella is that they don't have all the picture as we should have if we questioned the right thing. So Jamie tells everyone Aerys packed Rhaella off with Viserys for DS because that is the false info that was spread.And because Jamie thinks that's who he saw because that is what he heard was happening. What everyone knows is based on that false assumption Ned's little girl.....And that is why everyone is wrong. If you want to seriously talk lets do so .Any more questions?
  8. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

    No that quote wasn't about that RT you putting sauce on dry rice.That's not what that quote was about. And yes she is in a lower class than Rhaegar and it does fit .He a prince would not run off with someone beneath him. 1. He married royalty 2. His father refused to marry him to Cersie because he saw Tywin as a servant  3. Look who the Lannisters see themselves( as lions) compared to others and see how Dany(as a Dragon) see herself. We think all this postering Lions not bowing to Lambs and Dragons fracking everyone comes from!!! For goodness sake Rhaegar reffered to Jamie as a crutch,a crutch !!! Nuff said.
  9. Heresy 181

    Perfectly said by the way the nature of Dreams is a nice topic for the project.Has anyone suggested that as yet?
  10. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

    First para and bolded that's the reason for me saying its possible she was abducted but has me leaning against that is again going back to Brandon and Ned's reaction especially. I will sync Cat and Jamie's recollection and how it appears.Cat says Brandon learned about Lyanna.It had already been established in the text that Lyanna was "kidnapped/Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna" yet this adds a bit of ambiguity to what exactly did Brandon hear. If he heard his sister was kidnapped by Rhaegar then the first thing one would expect is for him to enquire about her or demand her back. Instead he calls for Rhaegar to come out and die. We then have Ned internal thoughts where he went to fight the last wars in the south.What's impossible is no one thought of her once and we can't forget from Ned's own mouth the reason they rose against the Targs was tho stop the murder of children.So again she wasn't even hinted about.These things make me believe that atleast Ned knew where Lyanna was and always was. Not to say that the kidnapping isn't possibe but lets look on Rhaegar's side he never mentions Lyanna to anyone not once.Then we have the curious parting words with Jamie where his tone towards his reference to Robert is way off. You kidnap Lyanna or runoff with her and are all "my royal sire is more fearful of your father than he is of our cousin Robert." That is very off for someone who just kidnapped his cousin girlfriend or had anything at all to do with her disappearence. Back to how easy it would have been for everything to be made ok if the marriage with Lyanna and Robert had happened sooner.This goes towards running away would ensure the child would be a bastard.I disagree on that because of Jon not being made in a marriage bed.See > "Why the secrecy if he's Robert's bastard." He would have that stigma no matter what if people knew and people would know and that has a lot to do with Robert having gone back to the Erie.   For someone thinking rationally and having all the variables with them they could pull the wool over everyone's eyes. For instance what Joff tried to pull with, Sansa he was willing to have sex with her and get her preggers as soon as she had her moonblood.They ofcourse would easily be able to pull it off because Joff was right there and they could call a marriage and no one would think of it and even if anyone suspected no one would say anything.  i don't think Lyanna sat down and thought this through.We have seen it in this seres time and time again with girls making rash decisions because of that or the other.Arya and Sansa for one and a few others.Lyanna may not have realized she missed her moonblood we seen that happen especially if there is a lot going on we lose track of that.By the time she realized this is what's happening its all bad and all to late.Not going to tell daddy,and this is something you really don't want to put in raven mail for Robert. I'm still of the belief based on Robert's reply about Barra that he may have had this expectation of Lyanna and voiced it for all the reasons laid out socially.Its damage control.
  11. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

    Oh i see Dany....... I don't think she was swapped with anyone per se. I'm of two minds on it, only slight variables that have me 50/50 on it and it's more how it flows better than the other.In a nutshell Dany is actually Rhaegar's daughter and she was who was passed off as Visery's sister. Lyanna would and could  assume that if Robert as in the case of Barra expected her( at 16) to be sensible about that and not get preggers.Which blows what happened at Harrenhall out the water.Her family would know how would that affect things socially and also politically if Robert was going to be King and that was already in the works.His heir would be not born from a marriage bed but a bed of lies and deceit. I think all these things and more were probably running through her mind and she just panicked instead of just facing the music of what happened. It happens today still girl gets pregnant its a sicky situation  and it what's my family going to think and do what's the baby's father going to think and do? The fact that these people love you and we'll figure things out seldom come into play.
  12. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

    Nanother this piece i will do a separate post because i'm not sure what you were asking. The baby swap? Which baby swap?You mean between Aemon and Monster? As to what happened to Lyanna after Harrenhall i think by the time she found out she was pregnant it was to late to do anything about it and the only thing left for her to do was to go into hiding and she had help. Why wouldn't she tell her family is a given to me she was afraid.And i brought this up the case of Lord Rowan's daughter and Lord Stark's maiden daughter.They did something they knew socially was wrong and chose to pass the buck.Place the blame somewhere else or just not face the music.  Why she didn't tell Robert is something i believe lay in how she thought Robert would react and i think GRRM gave us that answer when Ned told Robert about Barra and her mother. What was Robert's reply? " I thought the girl had more sense."  As if to say she would know better than to get pregnant.It echoes the mentality of the time as somehow the woman had control over that......I think she would have eventually told Robert though.Just not then. Hold on a bit... As to where Lyanna was. I don't know given the description i would say it was secluded and had a flower garden or near a place flowers could be brought to her to keep her comfortable and i believe Ned knew where she was and brought her flowers.That ritual continued after her death. My interpretation of the bloody bed is different i don't think it was CB because its foundation had to do with the battles that men fought and died in.The battle was their bloody bed.It shouldn't be the bloody bed of women. Asha got chasitzed basically for this because she chose to act the role of men same as Brienne.Their bloody bed would most likely occur because of swords vs CB.This is the contrast and this is what i think happened to her( Lyanna). About Barra's mother protecting her when the GC came. Or even Elia who didn't have to die but tried to stand in the way of her child getting killed but was cut down. She(Lyanna) died as a man trying to protect Jon and i don't think her foe(s) knew he was a she until it was too late.Jon was taken to Starfall ( because honerable Knights protect the innocent). This could even work if Lyanna was kidnapped but not by Rhaegar,Aery's order yes. But going back to what i said earlier certain people didn't act as if she was missing when that reaction would have been expected.
  13. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

    The first bolded is exactly what i said happened.I get frsutrated because i do feel people are being willfully ignorant at times just to be difficult and that's honestly because they didn't read.I said in the essay with a transition of how Lyanna's quote about Robert not keeping to one bed is going to be explained with them being intimate and it was . I'm lookin at the essay right now at the transition so please understand by frustration and my belief that what you were about to do is exactly what people did.They read the first part and said that's it without going further.  Lets take for instance the entire "clues of intimacy" portion of this essay which is segued by Lyanna's quote and the conclusion was excatly # 2 . They grew to love each other over time something i said to keep in mind that they had time. After each portion there is a sum after that portion there is this for that portion Sum: Lyanna wed what was well known and loved about Robert (his laughter) to what signified home (Weirwood heart tree) on her shield. As we peel back the onion the picture emerges of two people who had history and a lot in common joined together for politics and despite the bride’s concern and the groom’s past they developed a mutually physical and emotional relationship. Love. So i'm confused how you and a few others could say its not concise it makes me wonder how some could read it and tell me exactly what i said and why and certain people can't. Anyways what i was putting forth had nothing to do with Lyanna shagging Robert to keep him from doing it with others.It happened and it did so naturall over time culminating in Harrenhall. Also there seems to be an expectation that for characters who don't have a POV we are suppose to know exactly what they are thinking which we can never do.This is a simple case of them getting caught up in the atmosphere at the Tourney and it happened. "It also explains the behavior exhibited by Robert toward the statue told to us from the POV of Ned. These quotes show something that is not seen by any other prospect no matter much you go through the text……physical and emotional INTIMACY." I would have never put pieces such as the above if it wasn't about a mutually emotional and physical relationship.
  14. Heresy Project X+Y=S+L=J

    I agree with SFDanny on alot of the issues (barring the timelines ofcourse which i don't think is an issue at all). That Ned made an educated guess on this is most likely the case.It was a shot in the dark made by rudimentary observations on Ned's part. I also disagree with the parallels drawn between Dany,Jon and Tyrion. In one or more of the cases its speculation that their mothers fied in childbirth so that's iffy on account of that. Also,no one didn't do the essay because we didn't have an author for it that had the time to write it not because it was an uncomfortable scenario.I think we've seen enough in this story to desensitize us to the "ick" For me it was Ned's reaction to this that nails it which goes from shock to disgust.He doesn't betray any hint of emotion that this might be the case between any of his siblings.He has no animosity or angst toward any of his siblings and i'm speaking specifically of Brandon and Benjen. His interaction with Benjen or his memories of his father and Brandon are void of anything having been hinky. Lastly,the looks which is problematic the moment we have Arya looking like Jon an she has a Tully mother.
  15. Heresy Project X+Y=S+L=J

    Thanks again to Kingmonkey for pulling this together same courtesy applies. S? Who's S? S is Stark. Jon is an incest child. Wait, what? Ew! No way. That's sick. No way is Jon an incest child. Sick!Yeah, I'm going there. Someone's got to. It's the nuclear option, and I'm pressing the button. BAM! Suck it in. This is the option that never gets discussed because as soon as anyone raises it, they get shouted down. Nobody wants it to be true. Well you probably wanted Oberyn to beat The Mountain. You probably wanted Syrio Forel to survive. You probably weren't cheering on the Freys at the Red Wedding. This essay series is supposed to be dealing with the various possible answers to the parentage of Jon, and this is one of those possible answers. What's more, it's one with a surprising amount going for it. But: EW! Sick!Right, because GRRM would never tell a story that involved incest? Suuuuuuure, you tell yourself that. Then we can discuss this bridge I want to sell you. Ok, ok, but incest is a thing that evil Lannisters do, and produces utter cads like Joffrey, not GRRM's good guys, like Jon. Or say Tyrion. Or Dany.Uh... Oh. Yeah.Three main characters: Jon, Tyrion, Dany.Dany: Mother died giving birth to her. Both parents were Targaryens.Tyrion: Mother died giving birth to him. Both parents were Lannisters.Jon: Mother died giving him. Both parents were... wait, what?The Uncomfortable LogicLet me say this right now: I'm not sold on this theory. I wrote the R+L=J essay too, that's who I think is most likely Jon's parents. However, when you get past the “Ew! No way. That's sick”, Jon as an incest child makes some sense. In fact, quite a bit of sense. Not enough to convince me, but enough to convince me more than any of the other alternatives to R+L=J. Enough to think that an essay series that's supposed to be delving into Jon's parentage that omits this option is shying away from a genuine possibility. Yet this theory, above all others, gets short shrift because nobody wants it to be true. Put aside those feelings of “ick” and pay attention, because we're after the truth, not after puppies and rainbows and farts that smell of cotton candy. So let's all be grown-ups and ask that pressing question in a calm and mature fashion: did Lyanna get jiggy with her bro? Was she boning Benjen? Did she like to play hide Brandon's bratwurst? Was there nookie with Ned?This isn't one of the officially announced essays. It wasn't on the list. I think that's an oversight, and here's why.Firstly, Lyanna is Jon's mum. I'm not going to try to prove that here. Look at my R+L=J essay, or a hundred other places, and you'll see evidence enough. Secondly, what I said about the three main characters. Seriously, just look at that again. The three main characters who are exemplars of their respective families, who are our main eyes and ears in the story, with more chapters than anyone else, who are the main three characters in the book, share a lot in common. They are all outsiders. They are all “bastards and broken things”. Their mothers all died giving birth to them. Two of them, their parents were close relatives with the same family name. One of them, we're told the father is a Stark, and we've figured out that the mother is a Stark. YOU DO THE MATH.Come on guys, we're TOLD this. Jon looks Arya. Arya looks like Lyanna. Therefore Jon looks like Lyanna. Ok, cool. We are also told that Jon looks like Ned. Red herring, because Ned must surely have looked like Lyanna? Maybe. Or maybe he looks like both of them because Jon is 100% pure Stark.Tyrion thinks of Jon that “Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son, “ but he also tells Jon that “You have more of the north in you than your brothers.” He sees only Ned in Jon, while he sees Cat's influence in Jon's brothers. If Jon is Lyanna's son but the father was not a northerner, why would Jon have “more of the north” in him than his brothers? What Tyrion is observing is that the Stark characteristics are diluted in the other siblings, but undiluted in Jon. How do you get a child with undiluted Stark characteristics? Simple, you have two Stark parents.Now let's talk about something that's either a major plot-hole or a major clue that everyone overlooks because they don't want to believe this -- Sherlock Ned. Donning his deerstalker and pipe, Ned cleverly detects that Robert's bastards all have dark hair. He reads in Maester Mallion's The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms about how Baratheon-Lannister matches have produced dark haired kids before. He listens to Arya and Sansa's disagreement about Joffrey – Arya says he's a stag, not a lion. Sansa responds that Joffrey is nothing like that drunken king. BINGO!Elementary, my dear Eddard. Robert is not Joffrey's father. Cersei must have been sleeping with someone else. So how then, Mr. Stark, did you come up with this?   AGoT said:"My brother is worth a hundred of your friend." "Your brother?" Ned said. "Or your lover?" "Both." She did not flinch from the truth. Deducing that Robert wasn't the father is simple if genetically somewhat dubious detective work. Deducing that Jaime must be the dad is a shot out of the blue. As far as we know, there has been no hint of it to Ned. I've heard it suggested that it was the attempt on Bran's life that filled him in. So what, if the real father of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella had been someone unrelated to Cersei, Robert wouldn't have minded? It's only because Cersei's kids are children of incest that they'd get disinherited and Joff would lose the throne? REALLY? Just because Baratheons wear horned helmets doesn't mean they like being cuckolded. No, that holds no water. So how about the way Joffrey looks so purely Lannister? Once Ned knows what to look for, surely he'd be looking to see what other features he could see in the kids. Cersei and Jaime are twins, though. He wouldn't see any features in Joffrey that aren't apparent in his mother. You could almost say that whoever his father had been, he had left little of himself in his son. Like when Tyrion says of Jon, “whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.” And there's the rub. Ned has been raising Jon, who has all the features of just one of his parents, apparently. How could Ned, of all people, not be familiar with the idea that a child might look the spitting image of just one of his parents? That makes no sense at all. Unless... unless Ned knew that Jon showed no signs of his other parent because his parents were very similar looking siblings. In that case, Ned would have had a direct example of what he was seeing in Joffery to make him jump to that conclusion. Elementary indeed!That link between Jon and Joffrey is an important one, because they are intentionally drawn as opposites who have a hidden similarity. Golden Joffrey, dark Jon. Both sons of the leading houses of the land, but one will inherit everything and one nothing. They're even called jON and jOFF, for heaven's sake! Ok, that one might be a bit silly.The first time we see Joff is in Arya's very first chapter where he's directly contrasted to Jon.  AGoT said:"What did you think of Prince Joff, sister? He's very gallant, don't you think?" "Jon says he looks like a girl," Arya said. Sansa sighed as she stitched. "Poor Jon," she said. "He gets jealous because he's a bastard." … He gave her a half smile. "Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes," he said. "Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords." As it turns out, Joff is a bastard too. Fancy that. I wonder what else they have in common. Here's a funny thing: Sansa and Arya's talk about who Joff takes after gives Ned his little epiphany. There's another person who Sansa and Arya think about in terms of familial resemblances and the question of parentage, and that's Jon.Well let's take a look at their mothers. Funnily enough, Cersei and Lyanna keep getting compared too. Cersei worries about a “new Lyanna”. She believes that she was meant for Rhaegar but ended up with Robert. She believes that Lyanna was meant for Robert but ended up with Rhaegar. Cersei ended up having children with neither, being too busy shagging her brother. Might then Lyanna have ended up having children with neither, being too busy shagging her brother too?Seems like a lot of incest going on. Sure, the Targs swing that way, but do the Starks? Well, about as much as the Lannisters do. Tywin married his cousin Joanna Lannister, and two of their children went a step further. Funnily enough, we don't get told who Lyanna's mother was in the books. They're strangely silent about Rickard Stark's wife, but the world book is not. As it turns out, Lyanna's mother was Lyarra Stark. Yep, another cousin. Another parallel between Lyanna and Cersei. Lyanna Stark lived a parallel life to Cersei. Jon is compared to Joff. When Ned thinks about a child who, just like Jon, is noted for looking like one parent alone, Ned's assumption is that both parents must have been siblings of similar appearance. In Joff's case, that is true. In Jon's case, the one that Ned is most familiar with, does it make sense that it isn't true? If Chewbacca lives on Endor, then you must acquit!Which Brother? Which Stark dad, then? We have a choice of three possible sister-shaggers, who's the secret Jaime?Brandon the Womaniser is the obvious choice. Poor Brandon, everyone blames him for everything. He seems to have done the deed with every other woman in Westeros, so why not Lyanna? If Brandon was in love with Lyanna – and even more, if Brandon knew Lyanna was carrying his child – it would help explain why Brandon blew his top so spectacularly. However, I don't like it. Firstly, I'm bored of Brandon the shagger theories. Yeah, he liked sex. Big deal. That doesn't mean that every deadbeat dad in the series is Brandon. He was just a bit of a mini-Robert. Lyanna wasn't into Robert because of his proclivities, so it's a fair bet she'd be the same about Brandon. Then there's the fact that GRRM has said that Brandon never had a son. On top of that, Brandon had probably been dead for three months when Jon was conceived, and that tends to kill the mood. Let's put Brandon's corpse aside as possible dad-material. So onto the middle brother, Eddard. It couldn't possibly be honourable Ned though. Ned wouldn't shag Lyanna, Right? Right? Not “Dearest Ned”, who “had loved her with all his heart”, and “dishonoured [himself] and dishonoured Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men”? Wait, what? Ok, so that's all out of context. Ned loved his sister AS A SISTER, ok? That, plus his famous honour, is why he made a promise to her that meant he had to lie to Catelyn. His dishonouring of Cat was by lying to her. And possibly by lying with Ashara as well. The sly old dog!Yes, sensitive Ned. Over-sensitive, indeed, because as far as Catelyn was concerned, “He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles,” so she doesn't feel like she's been dishonoured. That's why he lies awake at night, his sleep troubled for fourteen years by the terrible knowledge that he hadn't actually done anything wron... uh, I mean... well. “Old guilts”, right? That's what causes it. The guilt about the lie. That lie really eats at old Ned. He's such an honourable and innocent soul, that one lie is enough.“I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine”, Eddard tells Cersei, making that interpretation rather dubious. Does he think of lying to Cat as one of those mistakes? Perhaps, but he has had 14 years to correct that mistake, and that leaves a lot of other mistakes too. Regrets, he's got a few. Yes, Ned's honourable. That's why doing something dishonourable eats at him. But really, all that fuss over one little white lie, the dying wish of his beloved sister? Surely there's got to be more? Well how about: “The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words.” Shame? That seems a little bit strong. Or not, if you were slipping your sister a length of Valyrian steel.How could this happen, though? Ned's movements are fairly well attested, but there is a tiny window of opportunity. After leaving Cat he could have rushed south at top speed to the Tower of Joy, had a quickie with Lyanna, high-fived Rhaegar, then raced up north to gather an army to overthrow Rhaegar's family. It would explain how Ned managed to find the ToJ so quickly after raising the siege of Storm's End if he already knew where it was, but no, it's not a very satisfactory story. Too many questions.That just leaves little Benjen. Too little? We don't know for sure, but not necessarily. He could be within a year of Lyanna's age. From Bran's visions they seem to have been close. In the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, it's Benjen who tells Howland he knows where to find some armour. The KoTLT then turns up in mismatched armour, and it's a fair bet that's the same suit of armour. The KoTLT was either Lyanna or Benjen (who on our first meeting with him is described laughing, looking at Ghost with amusement, and always having a hint of laughter in his eyes). Benjen and Lyanna were close, and kept secrets together. Benjen also has the best opportunity. People will tell you that he was the Stark in Winterfell at the time, but was he really? Let's go to the source, this SSM:   SSM said:6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately? It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW. source This certainly tells us that in the latter stages of the war, Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell. It tells us nothing about what was happening at the beginning. People often assume that Benjen was there all along, that he was left as the Stark in Winterfell while all the other Starks were heading to Riverrun for Brandon's wedding, but this is nothing but a guess. I'll make a different guess. Lyanna, daughter of one of the most powerful men in Westeros, one of the five most eligible women in Westeros, would not be wandering around the riverlands without a very trusted escort. Ideally a member of the family. This would be the perfect kind of responsibility for the youngest Stark son, on the edge of manhood and in need of just the kind of minor command experience that being in charge of a couple of soldiers escorting Lyanna on her travels would give him. Doubly perfect that Benjen and Lyanna had always been so close. So Bad Boy Benjy could have been at the right place at the right time. It's very reasonable to think he was with Lyanna at the time of the abduction, and he might have accompanied Lyanna to the Tower of Joy (or wherever Rhaegar and co. went first). Plenty of time for some sister-boffing. When the nasty consequences of the abduction became clear, who better to send as a messenger from Rhaegar & Lyanna to try to stop the rebellion in its tracks and forestall further tragedy than Benjyboy? So Benjy heads back to Winterfell, meets up with Ned while he's there raising the banners, and tries to explain to Ned that all is not as people thought. Sorry Benjy, too late for that. Aerys lost his head, and won't be happy until Ned and Rob lose theirs too. Not too late, however, to be the Stark in Winterfell while Ned needs to be off leading the fight. As a bonus, Benjen can tell Ned where Lyanna is, so that he can race there at speed after the fight is won, explaining the mystery of how Ned found the ToJ so fast, and why the 3KG seem so unsurprised to see him.Of course in such a situation, we would expect there to be serious repercussions. Ned would return from the tower with Lyanna's sprog, knowing just what kind of thing his kid brother had been doing. He would not be a happy Stark. Little Benjen has been naughty, and big Benjen would have to pay. Have you ever wondered why Benjen went to the wall just after Robert's Rebellion? Because if you haven't, HELLO, THIS IS PLANET EARTH CALLING. It would be just like GRRM, if Jon was Benjen's son, to hint at it. Jon and Benjen meet first in chapter 5 of GoT, so let's take a look. Our first mention of Benjen is as Jon describes watching the high and mighty entering the hall at Winterfell for the feast. As they go past the bench where Jon was seated, Benjen takes the time to give Jon a smile. Later, Benjen comes looking for Jon.    AGoT said:"Is this one of the direwolves I've heard so much of?" a familiar voice asked close at hand. Jon looked up happily as his uncle Ben put a hand on his head and ruffled his hair much as Jon had ruffled the wolf's. "Yes," he said. "His name is Ghost." Our first meeting with Benjen, and he does something that Jon does too. Jon ruffles Ghost's hair. Benjen ruffles Jon's hair. Ghost is Jon's pup. Does this hint that Jon is Benjen's pup? Sneaky old GRRM!Benjen asks why Jon is not eating with his “brothers”. Jon tells him that Cat thought the royal family might be offended, and Benjen's response is a rather flat “I see,” and a glance back at his brother Ned. Again Benjen seems to be checking up on Jon, trying to make sure that Eddard is treating him like one of the family. As the two had agreed, perhaps. Benjen's first act is to see what Jon has been drinking, and ask how much he's drunk. Then he laughs it off, remembering that he was younger the first time he had been drunk. Benjen is looking out for Jon, paying attention to his development. Quite paternal, really. Then a rather odd thing happens.   AGoT said:Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. "You don't miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall." Benjen seems to be suggesting to Jon that he consider joining him at the wall, yet immediately he seems to try to talk Jon out of it, to tell him about the things he will miss if he becomes a man of the Night's watch. It's almost as if he regrets the suggestion, that he was making the suggestion and then realising it was selfish. As if he wanted Jon with him, but didn't want Jon to have to pay the price. There are two interesting passages in this segment:   AGoT said:"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children." "That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow. Look at Benjen's reaction. He agrees with Jon's comment about how fast he grows, and in response his normally amused demeanour changes. His mouth turns downwards and he takes a long drink. It's almost as if he's unhappy about Jon's quick growth. Of course bastards don't really grow up faster, but from Benjen's perspective, seeing Jon only occasionally, Jon must seem to be growing up fast – and Benjen has missed most of it. If Benjen was Jon's father, no wonder he needed a strong drink when that subject came up.    AGoT said:"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up." "I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly. "You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son." Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!" Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel." Now this really is a telling passage. Benjen went to the wall only a few months after Ned returned from the war, yet he apparently did understand what he was giving up. Maybe this is just something he learned from visits to Mole Town with his new brothers, but it certainly seems to suggest that Benjen had been sexually active before he paid the price. The line “after you've fathered a few bastards of your own” almost sounds like Benjen is saying “like I did”, and Benjen actually calls Jon “Son.” Jon, feeling rejected by Ben trying to talk him out of it, lashes out with “I'm not your son”, and Benjen's reaction is regret. As if the price that Benjen paid included Jon not being his son.In the following Catelyn chapter, we learn that Benjen approached Maester Luwin, informing the Maester that Jon aspired to take the black. Two interesting things here. First, that we get the whole process of Eddard deciding to agree to this plan outside of his own PoV. We never get Ned's thoughts on the matter, which would certainly be too revealing if Benjen was Jon's dad. The other, that Benjen decided to go to Maester Luwin first, as if the Maester could make the case better than he could. What possible reason could Ned have for being dubious about an approach from Benjen himself, his own brother? So who was slipping their sister some Stark sausage? I think we can put this in an order of likelihood. I'll throw in a percentage likelihood based on a highly scientific process of pulling numbers out of my arse:1. Benjen. Closest ties to Lyanna, unknown whereabouts at the time, mysteriously sent to the wall. 72.1%2. Eddard. Would explain his guilt, but a narrow window of opportunity. 24.3%3. Brandon. Most sexually active as far as we know, but somewhat dead at the time. 3.6%The Big PictureIt's notable that Ned doesn't have Robert's anti-Targaryen feelings, even though he's the one with the reason to hate. Why would Ned have such a different view to Robert, unless he knew something Robert did not? Until Aerys forced Rhaegar's hand, Rhaegar wasn't actually involved in the rebellion. In fact, it was only after Rhaegar joined the King's army that the rebellion chose someone to sit on the Iron Throne as a replacement to the Targaryen dynasty. Perhaps Ned learned something that allowed him to forgive Rhaegar for the abduction. Perhaps Ned was still going along with his father's Southron Ambitions; Ned would initially have been happy to seat Rhaegar on the throne, and only after Rhaegar was forced to switch sides to keep his family safe from Aerys did Ned favour Robert? Perhaps knowing that they were at one point secret allies explains that sad smile on Arthur Dayne's lips?It's a lot of perhapses, but as scenarios go it does have the advantage of less stupidity than most scenarios require. Let's be honest, pretty much every scenario out there relies on people doing a lot of stupid things, like Prince Perfect starting a massive war because Mr. Sausage was hungry, or Lyanna forgetting to send word home that she was fine. From a political viewpoint, this actually makes sense without having to assume that Rhaegar didn't give a damn about political concerns. There's one other point in its favour: Ned apparently knew where the Tower of Joy could be found. If he'd already had some communication with Rhaegar, that would explain a lot. What's in it for Rhaegar? Why would he abduct Lyanna, not to mention letting brother and sister shag beneath his roof? This is a very difficult question for any theory other than R+L=J, and it's why people sometimes come up with complicated and frequently nonsensical theories about baby swaps and nobody noticing Jon being a year older than claimed. There is a hint of a possibility however.In my “Puppets of Ice and Fire” essay I've dealt with the links between the ToJ and Mirri Maaz Duur's ritual in the tent. There are a lot of similarities. Too many for coincidence. I believe that Rhaegar, obsessed by prophecy as his grandfather was, attempted to do what his grandfather failed to do at Summerhall, and what his sister later did succeed in doing. We know that at one point, Rhaegar believed Aegon to the the Prince that was Promised. Some people suggest that Rhaegar changed his mind and later believed Jon would be. Others propose that Rhaegar still believed Aegon was the prince, but needed a third child so there could be three heads to the dragon.I'm not sure we understand these prophecies, and more specifically the way Rhaegar interpreted them, as well as we think. In the one instance we have of an attempt to hatch dragons that actually succeeded, we see a very interesting detail:   AGoT said:Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames. Now why might there be a great wolf involved in a ritual that ends with the birth of dragons, and who could that great wolf be? The direwolf of Stark is certainly a “great wolf”, and Rhaegar is very familiar with the idea of exemplars of a family coming from interbreeding. When Rhaegar was sent out to discover the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, he is said to have returned with only the Knight's shield, yet later he crowns Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty. It seems like a pretty fair bet that Rhaegar knew more about the KotLT than he let on, and at that time became aware of Lyanna. If he was seeking a “Great wolf” as a necessary element in his ritual, who better to turn to? And knowing the Targaryen tradition of creating exemplar Targaryens by breeding brother with sister, which indeed resulted in his own birth, wouldn't it make sense for him to believe that Aegon's future may depend on a great wolf, bred from Stark brother and sister?ConclusionGRRM's girlfriend Parris is quoted as dismissing R+L=J on the basis that “GRRM does not do simple.” It must be remembered that she has not been told the truth, but we shouldn't dismiss her opinions lightly. My inclination is to think that R+L=J, but it's not as simple as a plain old love story. If she's right though, for Jon to be an incest child certainly fulfils the requirements of not being a simple story. The problem with this theory, and indeed with any theory other than R+L=J, is that it requires us to ignore evidence. What's going on with the story of Bael the Bard, if not R+L=J? Why, when he visited a royal bastard at a brothel, in a close parallel to his visit to the ToJ, did Ned's thoughts turn to Rhaegar, if Rhaegar didn't have a royal bastard at the ToJ? I can't give an answer to that, but in this theory we at least have an alternative that can fit the story without jumping through hoops, and gives satisfying answers to some unanswered questions, such as Benjen's reasons for going to the wall, how Ned seemed to know to go to the ToJ in advance, and why Ned is so damn guilty and filled with shame all the time. As theories go, this really isn't a bad one. It certainly deserves far more consideration that it ever receives, and the value in this essay, if nothing else, is to address that imbalance. It doesn't have a mountain of evidence in support, but then it shares that with all the non-RLJ alternatives. It does explain the forgotten mystery of how Ned came to the conclusion that Joffrey was a child of incest, and intriguingly, the only evidence that Ned seems to have had for that (Joffrey displaying only Lannister features) also seems to apply to Jon (who displays only Stark features). What else it has in its favour is that one rather compelling calculus I mentioned at the start of the essay, and I'll close by repeating that. Our three main characters, the three heroes of the series, three “bastards and broken things”, three outsiders, yet exemplars of their familes; Dany, Tyrion and Jon.Dany: Mother died giving birth to her. Both parents were Targaryens.Tyrion: Mother died giving birth to him. Both parents were Lannisters.Jon: Mother died giving him. Both parents were... wait, what?