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About wolfmaid7

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    Under the sea where the Crows are white as snow
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    Magic,Mythology,Cultural Anthropology,Global Health and Epidemiology.

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  1. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    A couple of things did the crowning indeed show Rhaegar's personality? Can you say for certain Rhaegar was doing Lyanna a solid with that gesture? Was that the only possible interpretation? It doesn't matter what side of the isle your sitting his gesture was seen as very negative. While i believe TKOTLT was Lyanna,that is up in the air.There are real contenders other than her.The thing here is you are speaking or writing as if RLJ is a fact.GRRM is masterful at misdirection and what the audience expects to see. Its the Sealord's Cat. I for one don't think Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was a coincidence......Romantic no.
  2. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    Yep. Comparison,contrast and discussions.You can draw up for Arthur etc.
  3. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    I understand RT,but i'm really trying for keeping it within the scope of the current thread. Things get a bit chaotic afterward.What was in the last thread,was in the last thread so let's for the sake of keeping things organized stay on topic.We can hash out the app and everything surrounding it afterwards on another thread.
  4. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    These discussions have been interesting in that there's clearly different perspective on the texts and what they are saying. For the purpose of this wrap up thread, i would like for us to focus on what the essays provide as clues.This encompasses anything you think are clues that point to a particular prospect being true. Dive on in.
  5. First i want to thank everyone that took part in the project ,and a special thanks to the troopers that furnished us with the essays.I decided to have everyone do summaries just to refresh what has been discussed through the project as part as an extended OP. We then simply debate what has been put forth like before and have more of a compare/ comparison look at each essay and the points in relation to the story.Not every point made appear in the summaries ,but feel free to ask questions about a point, or raise a point not reiterated in the summary. What seemed to be of importance when discussing Jon's parentage are the following: 1.Narrative sense. 2.Thematic sense. 3."Evidence." I put that in quotation because if there's one thing this project has shown is there are difference of opinions in what constituites as evidence. 4.Timeline is another sub topic that is hotly debated and we can't get away from it,so in the mix it is. If i forgot anything that you guys think should have been on the list but isn't ,go right ahead and bring it up. Lastly,we all can get a little heated under the collar when discussing this (guilty of that myself),so lets try and keep it as civil as possible and just have a nice discussion. Jump in at anytime to discuss "once" I've posted all (7-8) summaries.
  6. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Ok i think we have gone as far as we can in this so i'm reporting it for length.
  7. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Well we have a few Marcher Lords in the Dornish Marches and i'm sure they won't be oblivious to the going and comings within the territory seeing that a ver of them aren't friendly.Plus,i mean the KGS and they got to eat and they definitely would need water which is really scarce in the Red Mountains. I know the Red mountains aren't uninhabited but the picture that is painted still doesn't lead to one that easily traveled. " The disunity of the Dornish is apparent even from our oldest sources.The great distances between each pocket of settlementband the difficulties of travel across burning sands and rugged mountais helped isolate each small community from all the other...."Wb,pg.238. And this is part of the problem i brought up."Death was riding Lyanna's horse from the get go" Per you the toj was probably hundreds of miles deep in the mountains from the Princes pass. I get that,its possible,though as i said i don't see why as it would need to be able to observe the pass for a considerable distance.Even if there were other castles nearby that fell to ruin the toj would still need to be in eyeshot of them no? But back to my point,lets say its deep in the mountains,what nut job would take Lyanna there where travel was so treacherous.And i say this with your "miles from pass" in mind. Its not a double standard,as who would know who she was? On the Isle she would be just another noble girl,and i think that specificity of noble girl was a hint.You see no POV doesn't have to tell us specifically who in that situation,because Martin created a narrative that already tells us that nobles girls go there when pregnant.The sick and injured go there and i'm pretty sure not all of them make it. I did read them and i'm not saying that its impossible that Lyanna's body could have been taken from further into the mountains to Kingsgrave,Starfall,Nightson etc. I'm doubting it because again the distances between these areas makes it kind of hard to reconcile. So why my view,at this moment and i may have missed it,i see nothing that says she could have been taken to any of these places.GRRM goes out of his way to mention the situation at the Isle and i have no doubt that by default Lyanna's body could have been treated at these places.But GRRM threw in a spanner and told us in the dialogue that the Isle of faces is a place that pregant nobles girls go,is a place that the sick and injured go.If that wasn't there then i would'nt even be talking about this because it would have been a given that he took her to one of those places. Was he trying to hide? I don't think so.Ned came back with just Howland yet somehow everyone "knew" that he beat Arthur in single combat and then took Dawn back to Starfall where Ashara was waiting for him. Enough to make bows,but a pyre...........Nahhhhh Ask Robert----Who has no logical basis or foundation for this belief. In his mind why else would Rhaegar have kidnapped her? In his mind it would be rape because he doesn't believe Lyanna would have been with him otherwise. Ask Dany-- Who has been given a romaticized version of events and no matter what would not see her brother as a rapest when everyone say he was a swell guy. But Kingmonkey these people are wearing Walt Disney glasses,they aren't thinking anything else but emotionally. They would be,if visitors brave the distance and the terrain to get there. Days journey in the hot sun across shitty terrain? No not the dying part,the Lyanna Stark was cremated at such and such a place.If you believe the default then ts no secret. if you believe that GRRM having a character mention the specifics of the Quiet Isle wasn't just for so then if anyone knew that Lyanna was there,that she died there then that might raise questions.One of which will be she must have benn preggers. Again we can take the angle that it wasn't mentioned at all so its unimportant because its a default that's what he must have done. All that would be no problem, except GRRM threw in a variable,another place that tells us they get the pregnant noble girls,sick and injured. No its not Ygrain......This was an entire people moving across a vast land they are going to be collecting resources as they go.That is a given.They would have come with wood for tents,and to cook etc.They were expected to camp you know. You really think Howland just laid back and watched Ned pull down the tower by himself?
  8. Heresy 191 The Crows

    It depends on the shape it takes and if he fated to be involved. Let's say,and i'll use the pet theory i have as a hypothethical.We have his dream where Ned( who know if it was really Ned) telling him something about Jon that was more disturbing than all the crow dreams.We have the 98 letter that validate our theory that Jon and Bran would be on opposite sides at some point ( how long ).But my point is what if what Bran saw was Jon killing him....And that's it no context, except that glimpse of a cold,pale and hard Jon killing him.How much can Bran be manipulated into something to keep that glimpse form happening? We know almost certainly that whatever image he saw is the reason given for why he must live.But maybe he thinks he would be helping but in truth not because remember.......All Crows are liars.
  9. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    1.Let me extend what i'm saying with regard to why toj would be a terrible hiding place and it has nothing to do with Lyanna being looked for or not. That arguement can apply to any prospective parentage theory.What i'm saying is it that it would draw more attention to it and someone being in than a place where there's suppose to have people no matter what. A watchtower in war time will have eyes on it for obvious reasons; as a high ground for lookers and if someone is on it's route they'd observe it in case they are being watched. 2. How doesn't it stand up to scrutiny Kingmonkey? Show me anywhere in the text during RR or afterwards that somebody who is suppose to care for Lyanna was looking for her.Even Ned's recollection or retelling of events surrounding that doesn't have him looking for her at all. All we have is " I was with her when she died" Ned reminded the King." 3.How is the description of the Princes pass as a major route disputable?It was formally called the Wide way the easiest route between Dorne and the Reach.Also,one of the major routes between the Stormlands and Dorne.Lastly,we get that the toj is in the Stormlands.This i got from the wiki because i had no time to get the references.The two major paths through the mountains are said to be the Princes's pass and the Boneway. So how given this info is it disputable? I'm not saying that its a narrow pass,it was called the Wide way but i disgree with you that (whatever the size) it wasn't a well travelled one. 4. I find it hard to believe that given Lyanna's condition they would take her up there.the safest place would be Starfall.Even more so because it was Targ friendly. 5.I'm familiar with the scale of the Princes pass and that its big. That is not a problem for a couple of reasons.The most glaring being the one i laid out prior.How deep do you take a pregant woman into the mountains.I don't believe the KGS were as deep in the mountains as you seem to think. No matter how big i get a different mental picture of their locations from Ned's a."They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind." b.The tower of joy[1] or Tower of Joy[2] was a round tower in the northern edge of the Red Mountains of Dorne.[1] It lay in the Prince's Pass,[3] with Kingsgrave to the south and Nightsong to the north.[4] This doesn't say dep in the mountains to me.There are parts in your reply i'm intentionally leaving out for the same problems. 6. Same problem,none of these little castle let loose that Ned showed up with his sister's body to cremate.Even if no one where he came from that would be something to talk about.Just like Lord Borril's "Ned Stark was here." 7.I have no problem about things being moved that's clearly possible,but again factor in the environment and by that i mean that there's a rebellion going on.Would anyone serously risk that? 8. The Marchers being noted for their bowmen doesn't neccessarily mean they didn't get ......I have to stop there and point out again how contradictory these images are.It can't be both that the toj was deep in the mountains and in a marcher lord with the descriptions and locations given. 9.Can't imagine Lyanna in that situation banging it out with Rhaegar while the world burned around them...This is one choice where the absolute reaction would be war.Plus,o paraphrase Tyrion" How much of a love making mood would Sansa be in before and after he tells her they killed her brother and mother? 10.The native of the area have resources available to them,they are prepared for this kind of thing and expect it seeing as they live in a community.That tends to help. 11.Now it's a day's journey? I thought the pass was the size of a small country? 12.Your right its not a secret that she died,but again such a thing getting out.Im not buying that. No problemo,i know how it is. Not from where i sit.....He was still giving detail as to what happened. I don't think its odd from a narrative point of view.What's weird is 3 dudes no matter how good they were thinking they could meet whatever number that was coming up that road and win.What if Ned had 10 or 12 guys.There's noway they could reasonably take such a chance if it was somthing else other than their lives.That's suicide.What makes sense is that no one else was there and they were going out like bosses. Hahahaha That's what we are discussing.Plus have you never seen a levitating table? Dude it is your opnion that it is textually unsupported.You can say that and you have that right just as i have the right to say and believe that i think you got dupped by the text. That the text is deceptive yes.That the things that proponents require for Lyanna to be there is at times problematic.That i think GRRM cleverly gave us the answer to where Lanna was yes. Nooooo Ned's dream does not 'feature" Lyanna him hearing Poole scream in Lyanna's voice yeah. Again,and i hate to sound like a broken record but this is a dream and elements in the dream aren't neccessarily sequential,spatial and temporally related. It's not a gotcha.....He has Brienne going to look for a Stark girl on an Isle that he tells us plays hosts to noble girls that are pregant,the sick and injured.That could never be a gotcha. Yes there is evidence she wasn't you all just don't accept it and that is ok.Not trying to change your mind just penning so to speak for future generations.No matter how many times we cite just how impractical the situation is,how there is a problem when Ned negates mentioning Lyanna's body at anytime during the waking recollection to put her physically there.The caution from the author who let's face it would not have said that if everyhing was as is with the dream. Neither do i,i think he does leave clues,but again as i said this comes down to what you think are clues and what i think.To me Red herrings aren't clues. And there are clues in the text about Robert and Lyanna.You don't think they are and that's cool it will all come out in the end.That's simple enough.For now we are just talking getting things doen on paper. You mean the dream? Well boy do i have a quest for you. Jstar,if you haven't guessed by now.I don't care about convincing others.There's nothing in it for me if people believe it or not.I just have to be patient.To which i could be patient and wrong,patient and right.The answer to this is not dependent on your belief or the belief of others.So spout the ridicule,the digs.It doesn't matter or phase me. 1. 2.That's on you 3.It is your opinion that it is not presented as a mystery and the fact that no one doesn't question it doesn preclude it.No one in the book questions who Jon Snow's father is but it is a mystery. 4.I'm not making any arguement about what Ned should have done.I'm making this arguement based on a disconnection between Lyanna's death and him pulling down the tower.Based on the author's caution about the dream about things like Wylla the wet nurse being one of the day for some reason as if someone forsaw Lyanna wouldn't be around to have milk. 5.And nobody noticed any movement from outside the pass to in via the two main routes.They got to eat i assume. 6.No in this case polls are based on interpretations and again popularity doesn't maketh right. 7.And you are entitled to that just as i'm entitled to my belief that you all got taken in by the preconcieved character notions based on Arthurian romances that is a part of the westrosi culture.They've grown up with Princes running away with young girls and wars starting for lovers to fight over them.Its perception. 8. It would be nice to but NLG,let's be honest you all haven't been anything but rude,condecending.Go back and see what your very first post to me was? So please don't play that card.Me saying it went over your head was in reply to your "remark" and i was being vey nice about it.If something went over your head so be it or converse. I get nothing out of this,you all act as if there is going to be some prize one by he/she whose ideas or theories have the biggest following or most believers.That means nothing come WOW. NLG what are you talking about? The geography was always wrong which is what i pointed out from the get .Misread or not i was still correct. So what was your excuse if you knew that the toj was in the marcher lands and the lands were a certain way then why insist on there being a forest? You either knew and held the info or didn't know .The toj is an area that is described as plains,moors and grasslands. So what's he going to start a pyre with? This isn't some roaming clan,under what you all are proposing he rode up,sister died and he had to use what was there.......Not much .So,yy point whether or not it was marches or marshes the area still doesn't have what it took to meet that need in that circumstance. If you are the type of person to reject a fact because someone sees and accept a mistake then that's your problem.I don't care if you take me serously or not.This aint a popularity contest. Yep,this is all for me being contrary. No hard feelings.We all have problems because i find it very hard to see how and i say this with the uttmost respect "oblivious" you are to the kind of story your reading. He gives us these types of lessons over and over.The Devil is in the detail,the little things,the perspective,the bias,the culture of this story.So you go ahead and buy the Prince ran off with the Tomboy who didn't want to marry womanizing brute ,dies,brother comes back with baby says its his.So obviosly Prince got her preggers and she died in chilldbirth .But as i said we will have lots to talk about when WOW comes out.
  10. Heresy 191 The Crows

    I agree to a point and i'm excluding his family and thinking what could have made him personally scream out.Could for instance seeing a battle do so? I'm not sure.If the scene is seeing himself about to get kill or seeing a loved one about to get it,i can see him screaming.This is what i meant.
  11. Heresy 191 The Crows

    I agree with this,though for some reason i think his crying out isn't because he saw a future event happening to something else.I think what he saw was something personally happening to him.
  12. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    1.Ygrain what are you trying to prove with whatever you wrote there? If you are trying to prove that cremations or fires sometime have bits of bones left over.We know that already.Some of the text yoy seem to put just because they have the words "bones" and "ashes" in them completely ignoring that some of these were fires that people may have tried to put out. In the case of Quentyn he was in a place where they could have prepared his body any which way they chose because they were in a freaking palace. Dany had the materials needed to build a holy crap funeral Pyre for Drogo,his horse and MMD plus she had how many people with her to help!!!! You are comparing all that to what you want us to believe: Ned,with what was available to him could not have made a Pyre to burn Lyanna's body, stay for hours and depending what time it was into the night until the flames died down in the desert with a baby and Howland so he could collect a couple of bones to take home to WF. No freaking way! 2.Situational Ygrain,what does "urnfield culture" have to do with Ned supposedly in the desert with a baby,a body and a bud? Nothing.These cultures had what they needed for their funeral because they had the resources to do so. Ned and Howland were not in a place that would yield wood for a Pyre,the sitiation was impractical and if they had a newborn baby in tow time was of the essence. 3.“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." You are right about Barbery's perspective i did bring that up.However,given the bolded i'm inclined to see it as Ned bringing home more than a femur or bits and pieces of skull in a sack.. Ok i don't think i need to go further to answer anymore.Ygrain, this isn't viable.Ned,a newborn baby and Howland.In a place that has little or no resources for such an endeavor.Starting a pyre waitng for it to burn out,get some scraps of bone to take home to WF. Nahhhhhhh.
  13. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    1.Who would be looking for her? No one does so again that tells me she wasn't missing because her family knew where she was,or she was missing and no one knew that she was because no one was looking for her. Exactly,going to an abandon watchtower is more conspicous no matter Lyanna's state.It still on a major path that anyone heading into Dorne from the Reach or the Stormlands would notice people there. The fact that an abandoned "watchtower" should be used as a hide out is the issue. We will have to disgree KM. Here's the thing though like i pointed out this part of this arguement for either side isn't a good one because no one was looking for Lyanna.Whatever the reasons i believe or your believe that was no one was looking for her.And because of this fact finding her is a matter of someone stumbling on her and realizing she's not suppose to be there or she's out of place.Thus,she is not out of place at the QI,if someone visiys the isle and decides to get curious for whatever reason and check the women's quaters unless you know her she's just another girl their one the Isle. All secrecy or privacy evaporates the moment we put her at the toj. But they don't unless confessing to the Septon on the Isle.We are given this emphatically about the brothers there and why.It is relevant because if as i say someone happens to wander to the women's quaters seeing a girl there isn't an oddity as long as they don't know who. This is war time Kingmonkey,you don't think abandoned watchtowers would be made use of in wartime? No its not the same thing.Taking ferry to and island of holy men is quite different to riding a horse through the mountains and just being oblivious to watchtowers sparcely placed along the route and KM it had to be at a vantage point whereby people in the tower could see if anyone approaches.It has to be near enough for the look out to see activity. No i don't actually have that image of the toj.I take it for what it was and its use...It was an abandoned watchtower so its location must be practical for the use. And yet all of this hedges on Lyanna being.It doesn't matter how many people would have ended up there.The more you try to push the toj futher and further into the mountains the more and more impractical it becomes especially seeing as Lyanna was preggers. Not only does it argue against fire,argues against boiling,argues against beetles.We need a place suited for this kind of preparation so i repeat. She was either close to WF which made it easy to bring her body home,or she died in a place that could see to her body for transport. Ohhhhhhhh marche,yes i know,i know and forgot that should have registered duh Marcher lords is what the books called the lords of the Stormland.Its coming back nowwww my apologies.This makes this a bit easier.But the Dornish marches are leagues and leagues of grassland,plains and moors and that piece of the Red Mountains in the east of it seemed to be a pile of nothing.If that environment produced roses of any kind we would know,trees enough to build a pyre we would know. Which one is it? If they were wayyyyy up in the mountains because it was secluded( why they'd make a pregnant woman take that trip and not expect complications) making that trip all the way down to one of those houses .Open air or not in that sun not only do i give that baby a few hours to live in that sun,but that body is going to start getting ripe. Plus,Ned Stark using one of these places to prepare Lyanna's body.That would get some tounges wagging for sure.
  14. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    There goes that sweeping generalization again....The toj is named in the books,what does that even mean ?sooooooooo what its named in the books???? How is the toj connected to Lyanna in such a way that makes it a better? Please do tell. And please tell me what the frack i've said that's so bad? People who believe RLJ have said this and worse hundreads of time and continue to do so, somehow from you and them its ok? So "me" having the nerve to say what i believe and confidently do so is a problem? Why? So what if you know the difference between a Marche( i remembered by the way thanks to Kingmonkey).There's loads of things i don't know,but that doesn't hinder my ability to think critically about what is being proposed. Lyanna at the toj given her supposed state and given the condition her body arrived at WF doesn't work.
  15. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

    Yeah you are right,i don't deal in "what ifs" and this aint one of them.This is simply coming at the issue from another path.I've also said that at the end of the day this is about what some believe are clues and what others believe are clues.All of us believe that we have some understanding of how GRRM writes and how he sets up a mystery.For me this starts with a blank slate without any preconcieved notion about the issue.For me looking at this objectively also entails given what we think Lyanna's condition and circumstances are,given Ned's recollection what does that tell us about the place and it serving a particular set of needs with respect to Lyanna.Does GRRM atleast answer that? Let me ask you a few more questions based on the text. 1. You believe Lanna was pregnant? 2. You believe that her pregancy was meant to be a secret? 3.Do you believe there was aid for her being in a pregnant state? 4. You believe Ned bringing her body home in a certain state requires some preparation? All of these questions and more help me answer where she was likely to be and is a possible connection to her and the QI. As to the bolded, what i think about your evaluation skills or lack thereof doesn't matter.You have your belief and why,me to.George will have the final say.