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Everything posted by wolfmaid7

  1. I think that both these ideas can be true and think the answer may lay somewhere along these lines. As an example we only have to look at this same scenario under the lens of Robert's death. 1.Ned has a fight with Jamie and is injured.He dreams about what happens with Dayne and company.He remarks how foreboding it was to have that dream now. 2.Time passes Robert goes on a hunt and gets mortally injured.It takes time to get him back to the castle. 3.Ned finds him in his bed of blood after he passes 3 men in white cloaks guarding him.Ned even referenced it for us 3 men in white cloaks as climbed the stairs. What happens we have Robert making a request of Ned to teach Joff makes sure he becomes a goof man yada yada. And Ned has a promise me Ned moment reminiscent of Lyanna. But what is remarkable is the series of events and when the elements occurred. 1.The cause of Robert's death.Had nothing to do with his final location in the tower. 2His fatal wound occurred elsewhere. 3.Ned's fight had nothing to do with that. 4.The kingsguard that were there weren't with him until the end.Except Selmy. But this is an example of how lots of things can come together having really nothing to do except where they ended up and why. Funny enough this "is" more or less Ned's dream.
  2. I thought this might have been the case but wasn't sure.So Storm and Sea may have been the original OGs. So the ravens being agents of the Storm god has me rethinking the 3er a bit. I longed believed that the 3er wasn't Bloodraven and that he was of separate agency. I even think that the blue eyed lot (their green seer) could be cast under that umbrella to.When they come they usually utilize snowstorms the wind etc.
  3. Have we ever had a discussion about who the old gods of the FM were?
  4. Harrenhal in way reminds me of the " Winchester house. Interesting read on it and very present is theme " blood build it". A weapon that spilt much blood A woman And a home for the spirits to dwell. The link is taking us to the tour so Papa Crow forgive the long story. The story of the Winchester House began in September 1839 with the birth of a baby girl to Leonard and Sarah Pardee of New Haven, Connecticut. The baby’s name was also Sarah and as she reached maturity, she became the belle of the city. She was well-received at all social events, thanks to her musical skills, her fluency in various foreign languages and her sparkling charm. Her beauty was also well-known by the young men about town, despite her diminutive size. Although she was petite and stood only four feet, ten inches, she made up for this in personality and loveliness. At the same time that Sarah was growing up, a young man was also maturing in another prominent New Haven family. The young man’s name was William Wirt Winchester and he was the son of Oliver Winchester, a shirt manufacturer and businessman. In 1857, he took over the assets of a firm which made the Volcanic Repeater, a rifle that used a lever mechanism to load bullets into the breech. Obviously, this type of gun was a vast improvement over the muzzle-loading rifles of recent times, but Winchester still saw room for advance. In 1860, the company developed the Henry Rifle, which had a tubular magazine located under the barrel. Because it was easy to reload and could fire rapidly, the Henry was said to average one shot every three seconds. It became the first true repeating rifle and a favorite among the Northern troops at the outbreak of the Civil War. Money began to pour in and Oliver Winchester soon amassed a large fortune from government contracts and private sales. He re-organized the company and changed the name to the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. The family prospered and on September 30, 1862, at the height of the Civil War, William Wirt Winchester and Sarah Pardee were married in an elaborate ceremony in New Haven. Four years later, on July 15, 1866, Sarah gave birth to a daughter named Annie Pardee Winchester. Just a short time later, the first disaster struck for Sarah, as her daughter contracted an illness known as "marasmus", a children’s disease in which the body wastes away. The infant died on July 24. Sarah was so shattered by this event that she withdrew into herself and teetered on the edge of madness for some time. In the end, it would be nearly a decade before she returned to her normal self but she and William would never have a another child. Not long after Sarah returned to her family and home, another tragedy struck. William, now heir to the Winchester empire, was struck down with pulmonary tuberculosis. He died on March 7, 1881. As a result of his death, Sarah inherited over $20 million dollars, an incredible sum, especially in those days. She also received 48.9 percent of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company and an income of about $1000 per day, which was not taxable until 1913. But her new-found wealth could do nothing to ease her pain. Sarah grieved deeply, not only for her husband, but also for her lost child. A short time later, a friend suggested that Sarah might speak to a Spiritualist medium about her loss. "Your husband is here," the medium told her and then went on to provide a description of William Winchester. "He says for me to tell you that there is a curse on your family, which took the life of he and your child. It will soon take you too. It is a curse that has resulted from the terrible weapon created by the Winchester family. Thousands of persons have died because of it and their spirits are now seeking vengeance." Sarah was then told that she must sell her property in New Haven and head towards the setting sun. She would be guided by her husband and when she found her new home in the west, she would recognize it. "You must start a new life," said the medium, "and build a home for yourself and for the spirits who have fallen from this terrible weapon too. You can never stop building the house. If you continue building, you will live. Stop and you will die." Shortly after the seance, Sarah sold her home in New Haven and with a vast fortune at her disposal, moved west to California. She believed that she was guided by the hand of her dead husband and she did not stop traveling until she reached the Santa Clara Valley in 1884. Here, she found a six room home under construction which belonged to a Dr. Caldwell. She entered into negotiations with him and soon convinced him to sell her the house and the 162 acres which it rested on. She tossed away any previous plans for the house and started building whatever she chose to. She had her pick of local workers and craftsmen and for the next 36 years, they built and rebuilt, altered and changed and constructed and demolished one section of the house after another. She kept 22 carpenters at work, year around, 24 hours each day. The sounds of hammers and saws sounded throughout the day and night. As the house grew to include 26 rooms, railroad cars were switched onto a nearby line to bring building materials and imported furnishings to the house. The house was rapidly growing and expanding and while Sarah claimed to have no master plan for the structure, she met each morning with her foreman and they would go over the her hand-sketched plans for the day’s work. The plans were often chaotic but showed a real flair for building. Sometimes though, they would not work out the right way, but Sarah always had a quick solution. If this happened, they would just build another room around an existing one. As the days, weeks and months passed, the house continued to grow. Rooms were added to rooms and then turned into entire wings, doors were joined to windows, levels turned into towers and peaks and the place eventually grew to a height of seven stories. Inside of the house, three elevators were installed as were 47 fireplaces. There were countless staircases which led nowhere; a blind chimney that stops short of the ceiling; closets that opened to blank walls; trap doors; double-back hallways; skylights that were located one above another; doors that opened to steep drops to the lawn below; and dozens of other oddities. Even all of the stair posts were installed upside-down and many of the bathrooms had glass doors on them. It was also obvious that Sarah was intrigued by the number "13". Nearly all of the windows contained 13 panes of glass; the walls had 13 panels; the greenhouse had 13 cupolas; many of the wooden floors contained 13 sections; some of the rooms had 13 windows and every staircase but one had 13 steps. This exception is unique in its own right.... it is a winding staircase with 42 steps, which would normally be enough to take a climber up three stories. In this case, however, the steps only rise nine feet because each step is only two inches high. While all of this seems like madness to us, it all made sense to Sarah. In this way, she could control the spirits who came to the house for evil purposes, or who were outlaws or vengeful people in their past life. These bad men, killed by Winchester rifles, could wreak havoc on Sarah’s life. The house had been designed into a maze to confuse and discourage the bad spirits. The house continued to grow and by 1906, it had reached a towering seven stories tall. Sarah continued her occupancy, and expansion, of the house, living in melancholy solitude with no one other than her servants, the workmen and, of course, the spirits. It was said that on sleepless nights, when she was not communing with the spirit world about the designs for the house, Sarah would play her grand piano into the early hours of the morning. According to legend, the piano would be admired by passers-by on the street outside, despite the fact that two of the keys were badly out of tune. The most tragic event occurred within the house when the great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906 struck. When it was all over, portions of the Winchester Mansion were nearly in ruins. The top three floors of the house had collapsed into the gardens and would never be rebuilt. In addition, the fireplace that was located in the Daisy Room (where Mrs. Winchester was sleeping on the night of the earthquake) collapsed, shifting the room and trapping Sarah inside. She became convinced that the earthquake had been a sign from the spirits who were furious that she had nearly completed the house. In order to insure that the house would never be finished, she decided to board up the front 30 rooms of the mansion so that the construction would not be complete - and also so that the spirits who fell when portion of the house collapsed would be trapped inside forever. For the next several months, the workmen toiled to repair the damage done by the earthquake, although actually the mammoth structure had fared far better than most of the buildings in the area. Only a few of the rooms had been badly harmed, although it had lost the highest floors and several cupolas and towers had toppled over. The expansion on the house began once more. The number of bedrooms increased from 15 to 20 and then to 25. Chimneys were installed all over the place, although strangely, they served no purpose. Some believe that perhaps they were added because the old stories say that ghosts like to appear and disappear through them. On a related note, it has also been documented that only 2 mirrors were installed in the house.... Sarah believed that ghosts were afraid of their own reflection. On September 4, 1922, after a conference session with the spirits in the seance room, Sarah went to her bedroom for the night. At some point in the early morning hours, she died in her sleep at the age of 83. She left all of her possessions to her niece, Frances Marriot, who had been handling most of Sarah’s business affairs for some time. Little did anyone know, but by this time, Sarah’s large bank account had dwindled considerably. Rumor had it that somewhere in the house was hidden a safe containing a fortune in jewelry and a solid-gold dinner service with which Sarah had entertained her ghostly guests. Her relatives forced open a number of safes but found only old fishlines, socks, newspaper clippings about her daughter’s and her husband’s deaths, a lock of baby hair, and a suit of woolen underwear. No solid gold dinner service was ever discovered. The furnishings, personal belongings and surplus construction and decorative materials were removed from the house and the structure itself was sold to a group of investors who planned to use it as a tourist attraction. One of the first to see the place when it opened to the public was Robert L. Ripley, who featured the house in his popular column, "Believe it or Not." The house was initially advertised as being 148 rooms, but so confusing was the floor plan that every time a room count was taken, a different total came up. The place was so puzzling that it was said that the workmen took more than six weeks just to get the furniture out of it. The moving men became so lost because it was a "labyrinth", they told the magazine, American Weekly, in 1928. It was a house "where downstairs leads neither to the cellar nor upstairs to the roof." The rooms of the house were counted over and over again and five years later, it was estimated that 160 rooms existed..... although no one is really sure if even that is correct. Today, the house has been declared a California Historical Landmark and is registered with the National Park Service as "a large, odd dwelling with an unknown number of rooms." Most would say that such a place must still harbor at least a few of the ghosts who came to reside there at the invitation of Sarah Winchester. The question is though, do they really haunt the place? Some would say that perhaps no ghosts ever walked there at all.... that the Winchester mansion is nothing more than the product of an eccentric woman’s mind and too much wealth being allowed into the wrong hands.
  5. This is it,this is it right there.Perfectly put.
  6. To me Dany's question isn't the problem.Selmy's answer is as well as the lack of detail contained in his internal monologue.You are 100% right it is very clear what Dany is probing for you get no disgreement from me regarding that. It still a moment where Selmy could have dropped something about what Rhaegar thought of Lyanna.So, i am still left with his statement that he can't speak as to what was in Rhaegar's heart.I see this as a general thought from Selmy that he just didn''t know intimate details. To your latter not the same thing.Its not even close. Rhaegar: A rebellion has arisen to upset the peace of our fair and prosperous land..... Soldiers: Yeah!!! For the 7 Kingdoms,for the king. Or Rhaegar: I ran off/ kidnapped a High Lord's daughter/bethrothed and i am calling on you loyal men to defend your king/prince. Soldiers: Yeahhh!! Um what now? n%$^%^ please. Even if he didn't lose the sellswords he hired the knights would be " so wait you interferring in what lords do now?" I'm sorry but i am not feeling you Prince Rhaegar? Alot of people would be walking off the battle field.Unless they to didn't care and had Rhaegar-itis. Yeah,and i absolutely do believe in over 5 books we have enough text to demonstrate why Barry and a half of Westeros believe what they do. 1.Rhaegar-itists 2.Westerosi tabloid singers association. I can't speak to what Connignton "might" give. Its been five books so one can hope But the fact that Rhaegar's character isn't defamed to me is a clue in itself ;from a few perspective. 1. Rhaegar-itists: Unable to think of Rhaegar in any light but positive eventhough what he may have done warrented it. Any sensible person in this story who thought this through, and wasn't affected with Rhaegar-itis would have a problem with this. Yet we have these mindsets occuring: 1. Dany's first go to thought was that her brother did what he did because " Elia mistreated" him.Not because her brother may have been just a douche. 2. Kevan assumed that had it been Cersie Rhaegar wouldn't have looked at Lyanna twice. 3.Cersie called Lyanna stupid i think. 4. Despite the " Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" he was still a ok guy. There is something wrong with the programming of these people.According to what they believe,Rhaegar's action caused the war. He took off with Robert's bethrothed yet,Rhaegar seems to land square in the teflon Bill and Arnold bracket. If he did it it was somehow cool and romantic,if it was any one else they would be racked over the coals.I'm sorry Robert's a terrible person yet Rhaegar is romanticized? Yeah,i heard of being love sick but this is ridiculous.Something Tyrion said to Tywin that makes this less likely for me.Even if Rhaegar kidnapped her,or she ran off with him. To paraphrase Tyrion " When do you think my wife would sleep with me? Before or afer i tell her we killed her family? All these examples you gave Feather are very "Baelish" and it goes toward the point of how many roads Martin could have taken with this one. While it is very possible that Lyanna could have found herself in any of these i believe the Bael story as interpreted on the board has a crucial aspect missing from it. 1. The fact that Bael didn't steal the Maiden.No doubt he slept with her because he assumed the child was his according to Ygritte's story.She would have had helped from inside the castle to aid her while she was there for a year.
  7. I get what you are saying but I disagree because you are giving me a maybe scenario.I am not seeing any evidence that Rhaegar told Selmy anything.This is where I think the disagreement originates. Maybe he did is not evidence though it can be true.I am just saying Selmy while having a few opportunities to devulge more has not.He just restates the front page. How can I shut down an analysis if it begins with maybe? Now, I am not hindering you from speaking your mind aren't I? Nor is my opinion swaying others to corral and impede your thoughts. I am simply disagreeing with you on what Selmy knows. Imo there are some things that warrant "ifs" and "then". I have made no bones about this "ifs" that originate with just "ifs" are conversations I generally avoid.Posters want to go down the "if" roads I got no problem with that.But I've seen on this board where "ifs" originating from just that become dids. But to clarify my issue on this I personally reject "if Rhaegar" told Selmy something because his. 1.Internal monologue and conversation with Dany tells me he has no knowledge beyond what everyone else knows. 2.In a story where this is a belief among many characters there is no one who validates what "everyone knows." Nah, especially on Heresy.There are people on here that believe RLJ is true and some who don't.There is a difference in how that belief is conveyed. You will hear "if RLJ" "then" .You know why I have no problems with this? Because I,even I have yo acknowledge there are things which can be evidence that would lead a person to believe RLJ. But I appreciate that when these posters do post they respect others by saying "if RLJ". You bring up an idea that is also very intriguing and also a source of contention for I think only me...That is the idea that Lyanna was "missing" Or that Rhaegar was "missing" I don't agree with this because again its a matter of from whose perspective. Aerys knew where to send Hightower to get Rhaegar it seems so was he missing? Ned nor Robert speak of a kidnapping or Lyanna running off with Rhaegar.This again us a kicker they don't speak of either having occurred.
  8. I still have to disagree to an extent.And yeah it is a matter of disagreement.Selmy at that moment wasn't Selmy.He was just Whitebeard I wouldn't expect him to speak freely.But he did, even though he didn't vocalize it.His face conveyed that his words didn't match.He didn't want to offend Dany with the truth. Its quite different with Danny's questions about Rhaegar.There wasn't any hesitation.What he said was the truth. And what he knew was what everyone else did.If he knew what was in Rhaegar's heart he could have added more info. You are right that its not a straightforward question.It was an open-ended one which when answered would have just re-I forced what everyone knew. This is the issue with this.To add details if you had it to a widely held belief gives nothing away.It is nothing for Selmy to add details where relevant to an already wildly held belief. He didn't because he can't.He has no info beyond what everyone knows.Selmy had several moments in discussion or internal monologue to reveal more than " Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it." This belief is wildly believed but the point is no one can add anything more than what was on the front page of Westerosi Enquire. True dat.
  9. Nuh uh Matthew, it is fruit of the poison tree. If Dany asked why Rhaegar ran off with another woman the obvious answer from the replier would be "because he said he loved her" if it was something that was told to him.That's splitting hairs off a bald man's head to be honest. I have to disagree with you on the second also.None of those men who showed up to fight knew what they were there for. LynnS put up an excellent about what men were actually fighting for.What singers said and what actually happened ...two different things.Its not a matter of the war being strictly about Lyanna it wasn't about her. As to your latter point I actually thought you were bringing up the Selmy issue in regard to RLJ since that is kind of the topic? I feel like you baited me with that one lol.But I agree, and have said as much, not everything should be seen through the lens of RLJ; I will add any parentage.
  10. Very true,i have no aversion to that train of thought.But we won't jump to gun and start asking if Rhaegar lied to Barristan.We have to look to Barristan and deduce if Rhaegar told him any such thing.If he did then we can figure out if its a lie. If he didn't then there is no lie to figure out. I look at the context,what is known and believed.Is there a need to for the author to conceal what is already a belief? At this point Rhaegar is dead any info Selmy might give ,if he had any goes toward supporting what many in the realm believe.There would be nothing to conceal here. Here would be the perfect time to say something like " Dany Eventhough Elia was a swell gal your brother said he loved Lyanna etc. The context of this entire conversation was prime with moments where Selmy could have told Dany " what was in her brother's heart." He didn't know anything factual he could guess what might have been. Even here. Here we have an internal monlogue and no detail.Infact, it is just another tale for Selmy among the community board of Westros.Its nothing he has personal details on.I look at the quality of info,how he's telling it.The intimacy of it and its just something else. Compare that to: The above is what's missing from this Rhaegar and Lyanna a story.This is what's missing from a story many believe to be fact.There is no detail about i heard him say,or i saw him do. There is no context to anything regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna.Yet conclusions were made. He gave her flowers- No context, yet it must have been romantic. He whisphered a woman's name,the app he whisphered Lyanna's name.No context. Yet,Rhaegar and Lyanna have a romantic story? As to the SSM,Selmy's statement,Elia and Rhaegar's treatment of her.There are many ways to interpret what this could mean.None having anything to do with Lyanna. Well i don't think the realm knew what they were fighting for.All these fighting men knew was the high lord's called banners ,and in some cases " we about to get paid" There is no evidence that "the realm knew" Lyanna was missing.Nobody was fighting for " The Rickard's little girl." Robert and Ned were about to get beheaded and Arryn called his banners "for that" .As far as anyone and everyone knew this was open rebellion about???? Who cares. As i said before, i don't even believe Rhaegar knew anything about Lyanna "going missing".If she even was. This tragic love story got concocted afterwards because it sounded better and would draw more crowds at parties. Rhaegar didn't reassure his men about Lyanna because 1.There was nothing to reassure them about,they just turned up because banners were called. 2.He can't reassure anyone about something he don't even know about. With his dying breath Rhaegar whisphers "Lyanna?" End scene.
  11. This is very true Lynn.That's why I said it's all in the eye of the beholder. Many readers have determined in their own mind what are clues and what these clues mean. Some have arrogantly stated that because Rhaegar gave Lyanna a crown of blue roses it can only mean there is a connection between both of them.As one poster said " she is the only one Rhaegar gave blue roses to " Obviously that means there was a romantic relationship between them ( rolls eyes). That of course is not true.Rhaegar gave her that true...Context debatable.But I challenge anyone to look at the moments where blue roses regarding Lyanna occur.See what context they occur in and with whom. @Black Crow Pappa Crow we can do a blue rose study just for the he'll if it next Heresy. My point is there is the(our) narrative and there is the( GRRM) narrative. This is also true.Its the thing that grinds my gears. RLJ is one narrative that can be gleaned.I don't agree with it.I actually think its weak,but I can see how it came to be. But we are in a situation where A is considered canon and so every other theory is measured from a standard that is as flawed or even more flawed than others. In the end we get posters arrogantly stating it is "the only" narrative that makes sense. No it isn't, and we who say no are viewed as pariahs because we deny that narrative as the only viable one.
  12. Your first statement goes to my point.You are saying "facts" haven't been given to the reader about Lyanna and Rhaegar.I am saying in a fundamental way it has. I've said this before its in the eyes of the beholder and its about what story each reader gleans from the words on the pages. Some are waiting for facts to support a love story,however that story came to be and unfolded. I am saying there is a narrative that imo,from what I've read renders that narrative false. Now I am not dismissing Barristan's statement.On the contra or is very important as it goes to the quality of the info.I have to ask myself what is the quality of his info? Is it coming from knowledge that he knows as fact or one that he assumes? Everything Selmy has said on the matter of Rhaegar and Lyanna; from his conversation with Dany indicates he has no factual information.His info is from the rumor mill.
  13. Absence of verifiable fact is a fallacy. That is holding out for a hope.To quote you we are 5 books in.
  14. I have to disagree if anything the author planted certain "beliefs" that R and L were a thing.Some fans use that and conclude "J" There is a fundamental difference Matthew.What's missing is factual elements.Its not like the belief isn't wildly held in story.There is just no fact anywhere. For instance,and I am not saying this because I believe Robert is Jon's dad. If I take for instance one aspect of this,that Rhaegar loved Lyanna ,and weigh it against if Robert did there is a problem. It has nothing to do with what Robert said and did.I only have to look at Ned.Ned gave and said factual things to indicate this as proof. There is nothing like this in a Rhaegar Lyanna supposed romance.A lot of people believe something they have no facts to back up. No one can tell anything of what Rhaegar said "actually" said.
  15. I agree, i wouldn't call it a blank canvas we are given "info" i have always been on the side( given the story we are in) of the unreliable narrator. 1. We are given the belief by several people (non insiders) that Rhaegar kidnapped or ran of with Lyanna .This is important because no where do we hear that Rhaegar kidnapped or ran off with Lyanna from Ned or even Robert. We know that Brandon according to Cat headed off to KL after he "heard about Lyanna" What we know is according to Robert,Rhaegar did something to Lyanna.There is a simple explanation to this and it has to do with a believed double cross.They both know Rhaegar didn't kidnap or run off with Lyanna but Robert believes Rhaegar did something that led to her death. Its a layered and seemless tale that makes sense as a red herring, but when looked at closer there are craters where there need not be any. This entire narrative in truth is hearsay,character and reader bias with some serious mis direction mixed in.
  16. We don't know if Rhaegar had anything to do with Lyanna physically at all.That's the issue.Let's look at the story we have in another example. Where is Arya right now? If you say in Bravos you would be right and wrong and even though you are right factually that means nothing. Arya is currently the Lady of Winterfell and married to Lord Bolton.That is what everyone else thinks,even her own brother (Jon). If Jeyne Poole gets preggers her son will be the next Lord of Winterfell unless someone spills the beans. Well Robert wasn't really coming form fact was he. I don't care who they are any man if they are honest,in Robert's position would think the exact same think. How many times is this guy raping my woman will be top of a list of two. I honeslty don't see that of Lyanna. "Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride." From this statement by Ned,i don't think Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar. And if anyone did try to take her against her will she wasn't going to go quietly...This is where she might have been badly injured. Probably among book readers. Show watchers will probably see it as a twist.Book readers who stake their souls on this it seems might accuse GRRM of lying to them. I agree with the bolded. Ned's statement about rising against the Targs to stop the murder of children wasn't a throw away statement.I think this may have been what happened to some of Aerys's bastards. How much involvement or knowledge Rhaegar had is up for debate. This may have been the last straw that broke the camels back and the reason Ned held Arthur in such high regard.Knigths are suppose to protect women and children,not sacrifice babies.So what does a knight do when the king OR the crown prince wants to do just that to wake dragons. My money is on Rhaegar. These "spare babies" wouldn't really be dead,just reborn as dragons Aegon and the other two could use.You wouldn't have to kill your heirs just babies with dragon blood.Bastards. ETA: Rheagar and buddies rode from KL? I thought was DS? I assumed he left DS seeing as some point he was there with Aegon.
  17. But Lord's Stark daughter wasn't taken by Bael.Sure from the perspective of her family yeah she was.We are told "Bael had brought her back?" "No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. " So,LSD was missing, yet not missing. This means a couple of details are hiding in the background of this story. 1.Lord Stark's daughter was per Ygritte there all the time. 2. She had to eat so she had accomplices who had to be bringing her food. 3.Bael hit it and ran.I don't think he would be hanging out with her in the crypts for a year. 4.She had been missing for a year.Bael assumed he was the father of her son. Naturally we assume that Bael is the father.We don't know if that's the truth either. We probably will get a flasback about what happened.Just as important as an event happening is WHEN it happened.I think when this unfolds it will be revealed some of these elements are not sequence. Be back later to finish.
  18. Well there is the story and the story people think happened. If Lyanna wasn't there when people think she was that's kind of a big deal. That's a lie unravelling.That is a theory with elements that are wrong. We don't have any proof Lyanna was there.Not even Ned's dream put Lyanna in that tower.The dream puts Lyanna in Ned's dream with a host of other elements. Ned's breakdown of his dream imo plays to the idea that they are all elements of a dream. "Three knights in white cloaks,and a tower long fallen and Lyanna in her bed of blood." Let us look at Ned as an example. Ned's fight with Jamie and his men had nothing to with the 3 kgs he saw outside Robert's dying room.None of the preceding had any thing to do with how Robert ended up in his bed of blood. This all evoked that dream for Ned.But note every element took place at different places at different times. It's like GRRM poking fun. He pretty much threw that in readers faces..
  19. I will add something. "He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood." "A tower long fallen" We don't know if the tower long fallen is the tower Rhaegar called joy. What we do know is it is "a tower long fallen" Ned doesn't identify the tower as toj, we do.
  20. Forget about what Robert's feelings for Rhaegar would become.That isn't important. We also don't need to know what Rhaegar is thinking here.We only need observe what he said and didn't say;particularly how. We will never get in Rhaegar's head at this point.He will never have a POV, but Jamie's do give us a lot. Looking at Rhaegar's statement and tone; its not of a man who just kidnapped or ran off with his cousin's girl.Your right it is dismissive and affectionate. These characterization of Rhaegar toward Robert is the problem.He is completely detached. Be it he ran off with her or kidnapped her his behavior is contrary to what he is claimed to have done. Unless he is detached because he has no clue about this at all. I daresay, this has more to do with Aerys and having him in a position without "loyal"men around. Darry and Selmy may just "obeyed" Could be, but I am not sure he knew what he was walking into at the Trident.
  21. I see you still miss the point at all......If you ran off with or kidnapped your cousin's girl,would you still reference him with such intimacy? At that point he would be seen as a rival. Rhaegar isn't acting as if Robert is a rival. I also don't think its a coincidence the writer shows a tonal difference in how Rhaegar reffered to his father vs someone who is suppose to be his rival. The under tone to me seems a bit clear,Rhaegar's problem is his "royal sire" and not "his cousin" Rhaegar doesn't strike me as arrogant.There's no crystal ball that could have ever told either of them they would meet on the Trident. Any thing besides each other could have felled them. Also,if as you say there is a situation to think about with Lyanna for Rhaegar then Robert is a problem.He would always be a problem.This makes no sense. I will write more on this later LynnS
  22. I am really late to the party ( Life happens) but i agree with this...One of those things brought up so many times an ignored just as many. I was suppose to jump in a few post ago with this segue.Its a statement by Rhaegar that flies under the radar and i think its very important. Rhaegar himself tells us a lot my opnion.There is a deeper message communicated by characters in ths story and i do appreciate Hersey more and more;these threads delve beyond the superficial. I have brought it up before and a few got where i was coming from regarding what i believe is an oddity. The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine." Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour." Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard." The way he said this irked me .As I had pointed out this dude acted very detached having supposedly kidnapped or ran off with his cousin's bethrothed.But i don't think i stressed in totality how his entire statement is off considering what he might have done.Then it hit me from a different angle. Why? Why isn't Robert taken seriously from the get?If i were Rhaegar, I would be more worried about him, especially if i was the one who kidnapped or ran off with his girl.If i were Aerys i would be more worried about him seeing as my son ran off/kidnapped with his bethrothed. If Rhaegar kidnapped or ran of with Lyanna he slighted and betrayed his cousin right? We all can agree on that i think. His behavior and the use of the intimate "cousin" when referring to Robert is that of a man that commited no slight against him...None. There is more affection toward Robert by referring to him as cousin than his own father whom he styles " his royal sire?" I am buying more and more that Rhaegar conspired to have his father killed.And he sacrificed the honor of some white cloaks to get it done. I just don't think he saw the blindside,that he would die that day on thr Trident.
  23. A royal bastard would though.And i have no doubt Cersie would care if she found out he was Robert's seeing as her kids aren't his. He would eventually be a threat to Jon....Had he been at court and had it been known that he was Robert's. I agree either way Ned not telling Jon was valid.I'm just saying its a matter of what he knew when.Or whether or not it mattered seeing as he had a simpler reason any way for not telling him. It does Ygrain,they actually do go together.That's qualified when Ned thinks " If the gods frown on bastards so much why did they fill men with such lusts? What does Barra's babe and Jon have in common? They are bastards who are getting a bit of A RAW DEAL.
  24. That would have been nice if it were.At least to say some mushy stuff like he was proud of Jon. What Northern bastard is in KL at the moment to make that comparison? This is about was it right for Ned not to have told Jon right? Instead of allowing Jon to go to the Wall right? And why? The bastard situation would always be the cause .Cersie in Ned's mind wasn't going to have that.She proved that. Jon was never going to KL even before Ned and they got Lysa's letter. Jon being in physical danger wouldn't be an issue because we already have a good reason Ned would not tell him. He wouldn't tell him because he would be shunned and because Cersie wouldn't have it.So why tell him. ETA: Because I don't think I made this clear. Would Jon have been in danger? Eventually yes and that would have been crystal clear to Ned the moment he found out Cersie' s kids aren't Robert's. If he found out supposedly Cersie had twins of Robert killed in Casterly Rock.That would have been reason enough. All Ned's had for years is that none of Robert's bastards aren't at court because of Cersie. So we can't consider things he didn't know yet. For the past few years Ned had a perfectly good reason in his mind to not tell Jon.Given what he knew and when.I agree with him. If he had told Robert the truth from the get I think things would have gone differently. I think Ned realised this in the Black Cells.
  25. I've often wondered if TPTWP was for something or to someone Or was he supposed to do something.It seems a stupid question but what is his point. Your right it is a rather incomplete bit of malarkey.