teej6

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  1. Yeah, you're right. The shock and twist element in the story is overblown. GRRM, in a way, wants his readers to pick up on the hints and piece it together. But from this interview, it also appears that he wants to have twists in the story albeit developed organically within the story. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/game-of-thrones/11027457/George-RR-Martin-women-beg-me-to-write-more-sex-scenes-for-Game-of-Thrones.html So, some level of surprise to his readers is important to him but he doesn't want the surprise to be totally random and done for solely shock and awe purposes. I feel he wants the readers to be invested in it and when the reveal happens, to be fully able to connect the dots. Though, I fully agree with you that most of the lesser mysteries (if you can call it that) in the books, when revealed, are not played out as some big shocking moment. And yes, the number of secret identity theories that have been espoused by readers is mind boggling and really silly. It's like everyone in the story isn't really who he/she is thought to be. As you say, there's no point in the story to Jon being anyone else's child other than Rhaegar and Lyanna's. The secrecy element in Jon being anyone else's child doesn't make any sense. I also feel that GRRM, as he does not plot out the stories of secondary characters before hand, has at times, retconned certain characters. Jamie's redemption arc, to me, is an example of GRRM changing the character arc well after AGOT. IMO, there's very little that's sympathetic about Jamie in AGOT. Similarly, the young Griff storyline, I always felt was an after thought on GRRM's part. He may have wanted to pull it out if necessary early on and that's why he had the dead child be unrecognizable and Dany see the cloth dragon in her HOTU vision, but the way and when the character appears in the story appears a bit contrived. To me, it feels like GRRM has trouble ending his storylines. The ones he planned out from the get go he seems to have no trouble finding closure but for some of the others he can't seem to find a satisfactory conclusion. Stannis in the books will be one to watch. Obviously he didn't tell the jokers of the TV show how he means to conclude Stannis arc and that's why they botched it up.
  2. Yes, the R+L=J reveal and how important to the overall story this reveal is could now possibly be a thorny problem for GRRM to write. With all the hype, GRRM will have to write it in a manner that does not come across as cheesy and predictable. I believe Jon's identity and parentage are of tremendous significance to the story, which I think is confirmed by the oft quoted story of GRRM giving D&D the job after guessing Jon's mum correctly. But how does he keep the reader interested in this plot now that everyone and his/her mother has heard of it? If the book was a trilogy (and had GRRM been a faster writer and there was no show) and Jon's parentage and central purpose to the story was revealed in the third book, it would have made the moment and importance of Jon more surprising and clever to the casual reader. GRRM would have been able to pull off the hidden prince trope in a manner that would have been unexpected and unsuspecting. Now that he's lost the element of surprise he will have to write the moment and its signifiance in a manner that is engaging to the reader. I'm sure he'll pull it off because, in spite of meandering ways, I still feel the man's a great storyteller. To me, the best moment of the R+L=J reveal, if done properly, would be the reaction from the likes of Varys, LF, Cersei, Jamie, Tyrion (if they are still alive) to know that the naive and stupid Ned Stark kept a secret so great that none of them had the slightest inkling.
  3. And there are few hints in the text for your so called many other possibilities. Ned and Ashara are paired together by rumors in WF, Cersei and Edric Dayne but the evidence and timeline for Jon being their son does not hold on scrutiny. Besides, there's no reason for Ned to keep Jon's mum's identity a secret from Cat if it was Ashara. I'm always amazed at the preposterous theories that people put forward, such as, Mance and Lyanna or Brandon and Lyanna being Jon's parents with no textual basis. People just throw random names together with no analysis of the text just to be different. To the OP if you want to read the textual hints for R+L=J, the pinned thread on this topic is now on its 164 iteration and has been debated endlessly and is still the best explanation for Jon's parentage.
  4. If you read my above posts you would see that I'm not stating anything contrary to what you've stated above. Sansa's character has certainly grown and will continue to do so but I don't think we will see her become a master player at the level of LF in the next two books, coz that would seem forced. Same with Arya. She'll acquire the skils but won't be in the league of the kindly man or Jaqen. And I have seen plenty of posts that say that Sansa will be a great player and tactician very soon. She probably will become so but not in the next two books. And I also feel she will take down LF but will be aided greatly in the process by LF's overconfidence and carelessness. I disagree with you on Bran though. I do think he will surpass BR very soon as his talents are inborn and magical and his powers stem from this innate ability he has and not some skill he has to attain. He needs to be guided to reach his full potential but once he gets there (which he will before the end of the series) he will be the most powerful being. At least that's how I see his arc going.
  5. Yes, I know GRRM decided to scrap his original time gap. I don't think he'll now just just make the kids magically develop skills that take years to hone, especially not Arya and Sansa. Instead, he'll show a logical progression. Arya won't be as good as Jaqen or the kindly man, neither will Sansa be better than LF, at least not in the next two books. But they will learn their respective skills and if they survive the end of the series may further develop those skills. We may only get to read about it in the epilogue of the ADOS. Bran, otoh, I believe will master his skills and will probably become more powerful than BR for plot purposes, just as Jon and Dany will have gained the skills for ruling if and when they get the IT.
  6. Whether you agree or not, I've heard many posters argue that Sansa will become a master player. I do not doubt that Sansa's arc is now all about her learning the skills of court intrigue, I'm just not sure she'll develop these skills enough in thw next couple books to take on the likes of LF. LF's destruction may probably happen at the hands of Sansa but she will be aided greatly in this by LF's own hubris and over confidence.
  7. This thread is a terrible idea and appears to be motivated by a preference for one sister over the other. But I'll bite and go with Arya. In the first two books (most definitely AGOT), Sansa's character, IMO, was written as a foil to Arya's. Arya was the heroine and Sansa's character only made Arya's actions and character more heroic and sympathetic to the reader. However, as the story progressed, GRRM decided to give more depth to Sansa's character and her arc started to grow and become quite interesting. I'm still not sure how Sansa's arc will develop and I'm nor convinced like the Sansa fans on thissite that she will become a master player in the league of LF or Varys. She is developing the skills to become a machivillian sort of character but how far she'll get in terms of beating LF in his own game I'm not sure. Arya, on the other hand, is definitely going down a dark path but I don't think she's a lost cause or ever will be. She definitely does not fit the definition of a psychopath or sociopath yet, although I've seen several posters on this site call her so. Arya, I think, is central to GRRM's overall end game and will probably survive and will be brought back from her current arc of vengeance and hate to a point where she discovers that she is Ned Stark's little girl again. And I think Jon or the something related to Jon will be the one/thing to do that. The Arya/Jon connection is so strong in the books.
  8. If you've read the rules of the forum, you'd know that it is not permissible to discuss the show or its contents in the Book section of this forum. It's not about what posters think but it is the rules of this Board. And as others have rightly pointed out, the Show has taken a huge detour from the books' storylines so I wouldn't base any of my speculations/theories for future book events on the show.
  9. Interesting parallel indeed. I can also see Elia being on board with Rhaegar's plans if she was certain that she was unable to give him more children. In medieval Europe the purpose of most noble women especially royalty was giving the kingdom heirs, including spare heirs considering the life expectancy and infant mortality at the time. In this case, Rhaegar was also obsessed with prophecy and if he was trying to recreate the three dragon heads, he may have been able to convince Elia and people closest to him about the need for another child by him.
  10. I didn't say it was a smart idea. If you assume Rhaegar was in love and that he felt abducting Lyanna was the only way to save her from a loveless marriage, then perhaps Rhaegar was stupid enough to do it. I mean the man was dumb enough to run off/kidnap a high lord's daughter while he was married to a woman from another great house and had two kids by her. Obviously the man wasn't really thinking things through. All his planning to depose Aerys might have just been sidelined for his new found love's happiness. Also, I find the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a public marriage or that the knowledge that they were married being public "utterly rediculous". Not one single person mentions a marriage between the two or alludes to this in the entire series, which is downright strange. I believe that Rhaegar did take Lyanna as his wife but this was not public knowledge. Aerys also probably found out about it after he had Rickard and Brandon killed and not before. And since when did you become a proponent of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married? I thought your whole spiel until recently was that Jon is illegitimate. It's very possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't know of Rickard and Brandon's deaths until well after it happened. And that's not because they were love sick or busy shagging one another, but because this information could have been kept from them from people with good intentions or bad. And I didn't say that they didn't find out about it till the start of the war. I'm sure they were told after Rickard and Brandon were killled but Rhaegar was left with few options after this happened. His father had just unjustly killed the Lord of Winterfell and his heir. What could he actually do after the fact apart from deposing Aerys, which wasn't really an option by then. We don't know if Rhaegar tried to communicate with Ned or Jon Arryn or was even able to after Jon Arryn declared war. We have no idea what transpired and when. So unless GRRM details the events in the next books, nothing you or I state are facts. And that's why unlike you, I usually qualify my thoughts on the unknowns with the words "it's possible" or "I believe/feel" instead of stating things as if they were facts.
  11. Rhaegar and Lyanna probably had met on a few occassions (especially if you believe that Lyanna is tKotLT) before the alleged kidnapping and were probably already in love. Rheagar, noble as he was, probably didn't want Lyanna or the Starks to be tainted by the elopment of the already bethrothed daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and decided to stage a kidnapping. This is likely how the narrative of Lyanna's abduction at sword point got started. This way Lyanna's and the Stark honor is protected and Rhaegar probably assumed as crown prince he could take the blame, at least initially. He may have assumed once the anger and initial outrage died, he could then reason with Aerys, Rickard, and possibly even Robert. I don't know how he intended to deal with the Martells though. However, Rhaegar's plans may have gone awry once Brandon decided to charge to the Red Keep and demand a fight with him. He may not have anticipated that reaction from Brandon or the response from his batshit crazy father. Once this chain of events were set in motion, there was probably no way for Rhaegar to timely intervene and stop things. Or perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna were not informed of Brandon and Rickard's deaths due to the machinations of other people (with self-serving motives) involved.
  12. ^ This. Everything Targaryen is becoming sacrosanct on the show. In the books, I feel there's more to Brandon's outburst than what we've been given so far. He was a hothead, yes and Ned also blames his wolf blood for his early death. But the man was the heir to WF and should have had at least one level headed person in his entourage. I feel something or someone provoked his response. I'm not discounting that it could just be series of unfortunate events exacerbated by Aerys madness and that would be really tragic. Also, Rhaegar's long absence during this shit storm doesn't make much sense from people's impression of the guy in the books. Besides Lyanna's (a woman know for her grit and being unconventional) total silence is also strange. And I don't think it's because they were star-crossed lovers who forgot the rest of the world or because they were incommunicado. The line that RR was based on a lie fits the rest of the show's illogical storylines. Besides, I always felt that D&D hated Robert and Stannis and would be happy to pile more shit on the Baratheon brothers.
  13. Lol. Thanks for making me laugh so hard, needed that today.
  14. In regards to the bolded part, Ned thinks no such thing in the books. He knows Lyanna didn't love Robert but he never thinks RR "is a fraud" as you put it. In fact, he loves Robert for still loving Lyanna after so many years since her passing. Ned tells Robert that he never knew Lyanna as he did and that Robert only saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. Ned knows and realizes that Robert and Lyanna would have been unsuitable for each other, but he never thinks that RR was based on a lie. Ned does think that Robert's hatred of the Targs is an obsession and goes beyond reasonable, and is of course upset he lost so much in the war but does not question their motives for going to war to overthrow Aerys in the books. And btw Tywin does not have Aerys ear by the time of the Tourney at Harenhall. He has returned back to Casterly Rock by then and is not on speaking terms with Aerys. If you had said Tywin might have been scheming with Rhaegar to depose Aerys at that point, that theory would probably have some merit. And Varys is the one most likely to have whispered in Aerys ears about Rhaegar's true motives for the tourney and his possible collusion with some of the other high lords.
  15. Again, none of your arguments justify the RR was built on a lie line in the show. And it was one hot headed Stark who showed up challenging the crown prince not "the Starks". We are not given any indication in the show or books that Rickard Stark, the Lord of Winterfell, had any intention of challenging the King or the crown prince. Anyway, as I said before this is not a discussion thread.