Hangover of the Morning

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  1. I only properly read the OP so I apologise if it had been mentioned in the comments but I don'f find the Harry - Alyane match so far-fetched Harry may fling his "heir of the Vale" title as much as he wants but essentially he's a nobody (one step above a hedge knight) as long as Sweet Robin lives and much more so once the kid marries and procreates. I kinda got a feeling that there is an unspoken agreement between LF and Lady Waynwood (similar to his former collaboration with Olenna) where both party understand that the match is only viable if Harrold inherits the lordship, i.e. LF will make sure that that's indeed the case. I don't think Lady Waynwood is necessarily a horrible person (or would approve of child murder). She probably convinced herself that the boy will die from his sickness anyways, even if it means that LF's neglect (or extra help) may speed up the process. Harry is essentially marrying LF's bastard in exchange for the Vale of Arryn. Not too bad of a deal from his and Lady Waynwood perspective. Obviously, that's not the end of LF's ambitions but that's another story.
  2. What do you base it on?
  3. I'd be incredibly surprised and frankly quite disappointed if it turns out that Varys knows about Jon's real parentage. His actions throughout the books suggest no such thing and the Young Griff reveal makes it down right impossible without making it look like a clumsily handled retcon later on. I think the whole Jon = Targaryen princeling reveal and the irony that the politically inept Ned Stark was able to outplay all the aces of the game without any scheming, lying or backstabbing, would be heavily undermined (and didn't make much sense) if we later find out that Varys (or LF, Doran etc.) knew about Jon all along.
  4. All Daynes, even Darkstar. The casualties of the Rebellion: Arthur, Elia, Ashara, Rhaegar, Lyanna and Brandon Sam's family Wylla Harry the Heir Tommen Baratheon fAegon Garlan Tyrell
  5. I totally agree. Among the main characters, Stannis displays probably the highest discrepancy between "what he says" and "what he does", i.e. he's the biggest hypocrite. As you so nicely summarised it, his actions shows that his willing to do to almost anything (no matter how amoral) to become king, yet his disciples fans will insist that he's the most self-sacrificing human being and that he's doing everything out of duty to the realm and its people simply because he says so once or twice.
  6. I wish AFfC and ADwD were the alternative novels that showed us the world from different regions and perspectives. I'd love it if the "real book IV of ASoIaF" to be a fast-paced continuation of the core story set in the first three novels (preferably after a 5-year gap).
  7. I agree with your post. The imaginary and dialogue very strongly indicates that the KG are protecting someone very important, i.e. a possible future king and GRRM wouldn't structure the scene in that way if he didn't want to hint at Jon's royal origins and/or his potential future claim to the IT. It's emphasised by the white cloaks (very impractical in a fight), boasting about being true to their vow and being exactly as where they should be and their reaction to Viserys' whereabouts. I have no doubt that in their minds the KG were protecting the rightful monarch and the last of Rhaegar's legacy. However, I believe that there's a discrepancy between what Rhaegar (and his men) perceived as "right" and "legal" and what the realm would should Jon's birth become public. Even if Bobellion didn't happen, nobody would look too kindly on Rhaegar's action and most would consider his marriage to Lyanna invalid and thus Jon a bastard.
  8. I guess so though I can't imagine that someone would think that even George would be as cruel as to let the Prince that was Promised die before he end the reign of the Others.
  9. Definitely possible though unlikely that it's ever going to be confirmed as nobody is alive to tell the tale. I definitely got the impression that Rhaenyra and Laenor never even slept together as neither seemed to be bothered with the other ones public affairs and they stayed friendly toward each other throughout their marriage. Thus, my money is on Strong being the father.
  10. The most preposterous and depressing crackpot I read recently was that Ser Pounce will die before he defeats the Others and ends the Long Night. Boggles my mind. How could people even come up with these crazy scenarios.
  11. I wholeheartedly support the Nuncle Island theory.
  12. True but those marriages were publicly announced very shortly afterwards and also didn't happen between people who were already married in the first place.
  13. Arthur's age is never specified so George can reveal it to be whatever he wants but count me among the people, who thinks that Arthur was on the younger side: Rhaegar's age give or take few years. Simply a hunch and combination of the points below: It's unlikely to befriend someone more than a couple years older or younger when you are a child or a teen and since Arthur was not only Rhaegar's dearest but also oldest friend, it's safe to assume that their friendship goes way back (maybe they squired together in their youth or maybe Arthur was "fostered" for a time in KL as a kid since Rhaegar was de facto an only child and it's customary to bring other noble boys to keep the prince company) The age of Arthur's siblings: the older brother had his first child two years after Arthur's and Ashara's deaths, while at the same time the youngest Dayne is but a wee kid when they died. Unless they had different mothers, it's unlikely that there was more than a 25 year gap between Edric's dad and Allyria. Arthur has to fall somewhere in between. Ashara and Arthur were very close by all accounts and if there was a significant age gap between them, they'd barely known each other. Ashara couldn't have been much older than Ned and Robert as she's repeatedly described as a "young maid" and "new to court" around the time of Harrenhal Tourney. Edric left Starfall to become page and later squire at the age of 8. Jaime left home when he was 11. Arthur would presumably not be an exception in this case and would have left home around that age as well. He and his sister could have bonded during their time at court but we don't know if they were even in the same place. Ashara, as one of Elia's ladies in waiting was probably on Dragonstone rather than King's Landing but we don't know about Arthur's whereabouts. I always took for granted that Arthur joined KG at a young age (around the time he turned adulthood: 17-20) but not absurdly young like Jaime (otherwise it'd be noted). Similarly, I got the impression that Prince Lewyn joined later in his life (e.g in his forties). No textual evidence, just feels right regarding what we know about their personalities. Arthur probably joined after Duskendale (277 A.D.), otherwise he'd be mentioned doing "something" at that time. So if Arthur replaced Gwayne Gaunt (who died at Duskendale) and was 20 at that time, he'd be two years older than Rhaegar. He could have also been younger and/or joined a year or two later. Either way, he'd have 5-6 in the KG plus few years as a Sword of the Morning and a celebrated tourney knight prior to that, which should be plenty of time in GRRM-verse to achieve eternal fame. Of all the celebrated knights in Aerys' Kingsguard, teenage Jaime identifies the most with Arthur. Could be because Arthur knighted him or because he was the best swordsman or because Jaime liked his personality (or looks) but could also be because he could related to him the most due to their closeness in age. The White Bull and Barry the Bold were famous throughout the realm and had much more victories under their belts compare to Dayne but no sane teenager wants to emulate someone 3-4 times their age. A guy who is already famous but only few years older than Jaime sounds like a much more reasonable role model. We don't know the age of Whent, Martell or Darry but they all had siblings in their forties so would likely be in early thirties at least. GRRM likes his heroes absurdly young when they achieve their fame (Daeron I, Jon, Robb, Jaime, Ned and Robert during RR) so why should a prodigy like Arthur be any different?
  14. I never got the impression that Barristan (or anyone for that matter) had a low opinion of Arthur Dayne. It's been awhile since I read ASoS but I think Dany mentions that Viserys told her that Rhaegar was the best fighter ever and only Arthur could somewhat match him. Barristan answers in a very diplomatic manner as he doesn't want to reveal too much and also doesn't want to offend Dany by badmouthing her brothers. He doesn't overpraise Arthur or Barristan even if he clearly thinks that they were superior fighters compared to Rhaegar, partly because he doesn't want to blow his cover and partly because he's quite humble and tends to downplay achievements by himself as well as others. If anything, Barristan might have been a little jealous of Arthur's closeness to the Prince and/or he may have some regrets over the fact that they didn't share their plans with him and the rest of the KGs. Barristan could be rightfully resentful of Arthur over his involvement in Lyanna and Rhaegar's elopement, which led to the deaths of so many people. However, Barry has nothing but good things to say about Rhaegar so if he doesn't blame the "master", he can't be mad at the "servant" for following orders.
  15. I think it's possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna performed some sort of a wedding ceremony before (or shortly after) conceiving Jon, however, I can't imagine anyone outside of the Prince's fan club would consider the union valid and legally-binding even then, least of all almost two decades later. As far as I can tell for marriages to be valid in Westeros they have to be: i) approved by an overlord (liege lord or a king); ii) publicly announced (certainly after but most likely before too similar to reading of banns); iii) publicly held or at least accompanied by enough reliable witnesses; iv) the ceremony has to follow either an Andal, Rhoynar or First Men tradition; v) marriage has to be consummated. Hence, even if Rhaegar was unattached at the time of his elopement with Lyanna, the marriage (and Jon's status as the heir apparent of House Targaryen) would be doubted if discovered ~20 years later. Imagine some lad showing up at Winterfell at the beginning of AGoT claiming that he's a trueborn son of Brandon Stark. I doubt that Cat and Ned would start packing their stuff and vacating Winterfell for him even if he had a piece of paper and reliable witnesses (e.g. a septon) with him. The kid's claim would be surely dismissed and the marriage considered invalid and there's nothing that he could do about it. The polygamy and the fact that the Targaryens were officially disposed are another can of worms, which complicates the issue much further. That said, I can see a faction of people considering Jon as a viable candidate for IT but nobody is going to abdicate and give up their claim for him, nor will anybody fight for him purely based on his birthright. If he wants to become a king (doubtful), he'd have to gather an army of followers and conquer it. People would join him out of respect, chance to improve their position or due to lack of better choices and they wouldn't care wheteher he's Rhaegar's trueborn or baseborn son, just that he has some sort of, albeit tenuous claim to the Throne. People didn't support Robert, because his grandma was a Targ. They exploited that fact when they "elected him" to be their king. Jon could potentially win a hypothetical future Great Council if he is popular (e.g. helps to defeat the Others) and if there's a lack of better choices but in that case again wouldn't matter if he is a bastard or not.