Gaz0680

I gave it a generous 7, mostly for the Winterfell scenes (which were too short) and Tyrion.

All of the episode was predictable and much of it boring, but the acting and CGI were solid. Im still not a fan of Kits acting though.

18 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

And, of course, the Winterfell storyline. It has been possibly the worst part of this season altogether, but episode 6 ripped it. I really dislike what they have done with Arya. For two actresses that seem as friendly as Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams are in real life, they literally have zero on screen chemistry. Their conversations at Winterfell have easily been the worst examples of acting in the whole show.

I think that is a bit harsh. Maisie and Sophie so far havent shown near as much chemistry onscreen as they have in interviews together, vines, etc, but I wouldn't say they have zero chemistry.

I definitely disagree their conversations at WF have been worst examples of acting in whole show. Both have portrayed their characters very well.

Maisie is playing Arya very differently this season (see thread "Arya Stark" I created today), but Im 99% sure that is a writing/dorecting choice, not an acting one. Whereas Maisie was always very expressive in her acting in seasons 1-6, this year she has played Arya as a cold, calculating, emotionless being who even states expressions of anger or resentment matter-of-factly rather than displaying emotion. Arya's soul and personality seemed to have been sucked out of the character which had a big impact on the scenes with Sansa/Sophie. Again though, I am certain Maisie is playing Arya as intended and the huge change in her delivery of the character  is in line with where the showrunners are taking her character. Something is definitely up.

7 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Two. 

That's for the excellent CGI, Viserion's death (which I did find very affecting) and Tormund's sheer terror (although he should have died).

Everything else was drivel.

Pretty much this.

I gave it a 5.

33 minutes ago, tmug said:

It's either one of 2 things, both involve a plot twist in the cheesiest way possible.

- Arya is not Arya but is actually the Waif and Arya really died back in Bravos. She seemed very creepy and sounded much like the Waif with her words. Perhaps the Waif or Jaquen Hqar made it to Winterfell before the real Arya and perhaps a nod to the book's Fake Arya.

- Or (this actually makes the most sense) Arya is blackmailing Sansa into killing Littlefinger herself to prove her loyalty to her family again. Look at the way Arya gave Sansa the dagger that was used to try and kill Bran. This is mob speak by Arya to basically prove Sansa's loyalty to House Stark once again or else face the wrath that is Arya. Arya has her sister dead to rights and she finally wins versus Sansa. 

I think it is safe to say that even though the show portrays LF winning the spy game with Arya, it's all a roose   Think about it, how the hell can LittleFinger out-spy a Faceless assassin that can morph into anyone they want? 

 

There is something very different about Arya's character this season and in Maisie's acting. I cant pinpoint the reason for it.

Arya had always been a strong minded individual who wears her heart on her sleeve. She always spoke her mind directly when something was bothering her and she was very expressive. Maisies acting was too. She was brilliant.

In season 7, Arya is almost a different person and Maisie is definitely playing her more controlled and emotionless, like she has lost touch with most of her humanity.

 Even in the conversations with Sansa this season, Maisie's delivery has been more in line with the Waif than that of Season 1-6 Arya. I also believe this is by design and not just an acting choice from Maisie. 

I see only 3 reasons for this:

1. The writers are taking Arya down an even darker path towards full blown psychopath and the change in delivery of the character is to illustrate that descent.

2. Arya is dead and the Waif is wearing her face. I would absolutely loathe for this to be true but I am genuinely fearful the show may go that way.

3. Arya truly did become No One at end of season 6 and is just playing the part of the old Arya Stark, therefore the true emotion of the real Arya isnt there.

3 hours ago, Pandean said:

I found it kind of funny that Arya had/has no desire to wear nice dresses or looks pretty but then threatens to kill Sansa....so she can look pretty and wear nice dresses among other things.

Lol she wasn't threatening to kill Sansa at all. She wanted to scare Sansa I think, but she was letting her know she is on her side. 

Also, even if it was a genuine threat, the reason was not so Arya could wear nice things lol

9 minutes ago, Gelious said:

Wait, what? Did Winds of Winter already come out? I read all the books and had no idea Tyrion and Jaime have different fathers.

Can somebody explain me this moment?

CrypticWeirdwood's post was from the fan theory that Tyrion is actually the son of Mad King Aerys and Joanna Lannister so is also a secret Targ.

If that is true, then Tyrion would have killed Jaime's father (Tywin) and Jaime would have killed Tyrions (Aerys).

There are also theories that it is actually Jaime and Cersei who are actually the Targaryens and not Tyrion.

Personally, I believe both of these theories are false.

11 minutes ago, Risto said:

Well, I think she reiterates the point that he is their King, but he has been gone for quite some time. As for what Miss Turner wants to portray, I think it is some combination of ambition and loyalty to the family. She wants power, that is certain, but she doesn't want her family being hurt. Which is something Arya misses in their conversation.

That wasn't missed. Arya never said or even hinted that she thought Sansa wanted her family being hurt or any harm coming to them.

It was the lust in Sansa that Arya saw in the room when the Lords were talking about her being Queen in the North that prompted their private conversation in the first place. A significant part of Sansa wanted that. She wasn't wishing any harm on her family or on Jon, but Arya I think saw that Sansa was wishing they had named her QitN instead of Jon KiTN.

The conversation wasn't about the family being hurt. It was about loyalty..and from what Arya saw in Sansa, she had reasons for some doubt there. I don't think Arya handled it the right way though and her comment about chopping heads off was stupid. BookArya would not ev en have suggested that.

I am so tired of the writers making character A momentarily stupid in order for character B to appear smart. They seem completely incapable of making Character A appear smart, but character B just even more on point in a specific situation. 

22 minutes ago, Risto said:

They went into a room and she told Sansa that she always liked to be surrounded by beautiful things. Beside the flower in the background, what beautiful things is she talking about? 

Sansa is doing her job as best as she can, but at the same time, the difficulties are there. We all expected them to arise. It is natural that lords are feeling insecure with the King gone indefinitely. They need stability, structure and that is what Sansa is providing. Do remember that, given the timeline, it must have been at least couple of months, if not more, since Jon rode South. So, it is normal for them to start stirring.

Arya was childish. Her way was wrong on so many levels. Simply, cutting people's heads serves nothing. They tend to rebel and depose you. Sansa taught her a valuable lesson. 

Sansa didn't teach Arya anything. She made a point that was not without merit, yet Arya's concerns were also genuine and not without merit.

Either way, D&D have pretty much ruined both Sansa and Arya as characters with their writing and the horrendous plot lines they've given to them. Both the characters and the actresses deserve much better material.

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

My thoughts currently:

5. I'm pretty much convinced that Sansa could singlehandedly save the entire planetos and people would still say she's the same whiny little brat from season 1 who is naive and betrayed her family and is power hungry and arya rocks

13. I'm currently not sure if I think Arya or Littlefinger is dumber at the moment

On point 5, it appears the opposite for a lot of other people. Arya could save Planetos through an act of incredible empathy and sacrifice and they would still hate on her and say Sansa rocks.

I don't think Arya is dumb. She saw through Sansa quite clearly in their discussion. Arya's accusations were based not on a childhood memory but her current read of Sansa right then and there. She KNEW a big part of Sansa was wanting and craving the power and she was internally struggling with that.

I think the accusations levelled at Arya being childish in that scene were unfair. Her extremist solution about chopping off heads was wrong, but it was still understandable as to why she would lean that way given her experiences and recent actions.

3 hours ago, StepStark said:

Fundamental part of my criticism? Where did you get that idea? That was no part of my criticism at all. In this entire discussion I didn't compare the show with the books, not only because it's not the subject, but also because it's not needed. The show is so stupid that I don't need to compare it to the books to show how stupid it is.

And why would I compare a masterpiece like ASOIAF with a terrible fanfic that is GOT? Do you even realize the difference in quality between the two? The books are by far the best fantasy of modern times, possibly the only fantasy that elevated itself so much above the genre that it's legitimately considered a high-quality drama and also a social study and political intrigue. The show is written by two guys who think that abandoning Casterley Rock and leaving it to the enemy can be a brilliant strategic move by the Lannisters. That is a difference in class! Abandoning Casterley Rock is just monumentally nonsensical, nothing even remotely as ridiculous can be found in the books - and that's only one of the sea of examples of the show's utter stupidity. So why the hell would I even compare that absurdity to something as good as ASOIAF?

That Benioff and Weiss have failed to remain true the project of the books is an understatement, as big as they come. They keep failing over and over again to remain true even to basic logic.

This is true, but as good as ASOIAF is, GRRM also has his own fairly substantial weaknesses.  His characterisations are brilliant and for the most part, consistent, whereas the show's are anything but.

However, in terms of the actual plot, I feel George let it get too big and overwhelm him in Feast and Dance and it's going to be difficult for him to bring it all back together, which is why we may never see A Dream of Spring. Both of those fourth and fifth books dragged badly and were difficult to read through at times. Many plot threads needed to be cut for the adaptation. To that end, D&D had the right idea, they just butchered the execution.

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

Even if it was "subtle", what would be the point of it? From forever, training process is used in movies and TV to explicitly show improvements. Not subtly, but explicitly.

I agree, which is why I stated they should have been showing more obvious improvements in the training. Arya's Braavos arc could potentially have been amazing, but D&D botched it so badly. It was a hack job, nothing more, one which utterly ruined Arya as a character for many people.

We certainly DID see Arya develop in her training in the House of Black and White, but it was subtle, gradual improvements that were shown, not massive ones. In her duels with the waif, Arya definitely improved in her defence capabilities, blocking and anticipating opponents moves. That much was clear.

 The problem with Arya's arc in seasons 5 and 6 is D&D spent so much time getting Arya from an F to a C in terms of her Faceless Men skills (disguise, assassination, etc) they had no time left to display her going from a C to an A or A+. Also, they spent zero time on her swordfighting (not even showing her to continue practicing it alone like they did in S3 and S4). This made the Brienne fight even more difficult to believe.

Its like they started showing the foundations of Arya learning things (manipulation, lie detection, etc) but never finished it off. For example, the story the Waif told Arya about the waif's childhood was clearly meant to be the beginnings of Arya learning lie detection (as she dod in books) but then that went nowhere and Arya's ability to detect lies was never tested or trained again. It is likely the show will never revisit that ability either or have Arya use it.

Indeed, if they were going to, they wouldn't have had Arya accuse Hot Pie of lying when it was clear as day (whether his claim was true or not) that Hot Pie genuinely believed what he was saying to be true.

Arya needed to be shown making more obvious improvements in her training so she could get from an F to an A by end of season 6 or start of season 7 more believably. The way it was done on screen sadly was horrible and ruined Arya for some people.

38 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But aren't 10s for this episode also unrealistic? If 1 means what you say it means, then 10 means that the episode had no faults, and therefore I can only ask a similar question: "How can anyone love all of it?" Even the battle itself, which I enjoyed very much and totally unexpectedly (I don't think I ever enjoyed anything in GOT as much as this battle), wasn't without logical fallacies, and not to mention the rest of the episode which was cringe worthy for the most part.

Maybe it's because I'm older than most of other posters here, but I see rating differently: when there is a scale against which you're measuring something, it requires at least some objectivity. A scale is an attempt to quantify something, and quantities are objective by nature. Admittedly, rating a show is a tricky task because it's trying to quantify the quality, but I don't think that it's meant to be devoid of objectivity.

I agree with your point that there should be some objectivity in rating a tv show, but if the parameters of the rating aren't clearly defined including weightings for each criteria forming part of the overall rating, its pretty much going to be all subjective.

1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yeah, I knew it was a well forged blade, because both Jon and Ned commented on that.  Presumably Brienne's practice sword is castle forged also, so I still don't know how Arya's could have held up to Brienne's, although admittedly I know next to nothing about steel and swords.

Well, I also know virtually nothing about steel or swords, but yesterday I watched a YouTube video from someone who did in which he was examining the Arya-Brienne fight. 

He said Needle was a smallsword, but still steel and quite strong. It would not have just broken from a swing of Brienne's longsword. The guy actually had a real smallsword in his hand.

So expecting Needle to just snap was unrealistic, but he argued smallswords are for thrusting, not cutting. He even demonstrated by hitting his own bare arm skin firmly with the real smallsword multiple times and it did absolutely nothing.

Smallswords are generally for thrusting with point only he argued and said that was the most unrealistic part of the fight.

That said, Needle had previously already been shown as a sword that can be used for both cutting and thrusting. For example, Arya used a cutting/slicing action to kill pidgeons and cut the candle in Waif scene but used a thrusting one to kill Polliver and Rorge with the point.

23 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Oh, no wonder it wasn't shiny and glistening like I thought it should be.  I guess it would be stupid to use VS for training.  It still seems her sword should have broken Arya's.  Unless the way in which it was forged gave it uncommon strength.

Needle is strong castle forged steel, so is very strong, but is not Valyrian Steel.

3 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

How do you know she had no formal sword training with the FM.  There is a whole lot we did not see about her training, and training an assassin with only one weapon would be stupid.  I think the scene was more to show her agility and speed, which she learned from both Syrio and the FM and which is always going to be her strongest asset in fighting.  She is never going to be big and strong like Brienne.

I do agree though about parrying Brienne's attacks, because how did her skinny Needle not break under the force of such a heavy Valyrian steel sword?

Brienne wasn't wielding Oathkeeper (her Valyrian steel sword). She had a blunted training sword.

17 minutes ago, StepStark said:

 

So please, try to bring some perspective into commenting and rating. Perspective other than your pure subjective pleasure at a given moment, that is. That was my point, that perspective was and is missing from many of those 10 ratings. Because if you can't even imagine how a 10 episode should look like in a show with this budget and this setting and this source material to draw from (regardless of whether you read the books or not, by now you should be aware of the story that is the basis for GOT), then you're seriously lacking a perspective.

Sorry StepStark, but Samwell_Tarly was right. It IS subjective.

The perspective is also subjective.

Until we have tv and movie reviews/ratings being done by robots instead of humans using standardised computer calculations and following detailed, specific criteria with appropriate weightings attached to them, they will NEVER be objective.

Give any human being that same list of criteria and their own personal biases WILL come into play in rating the tv show/movie overall and for individual criteria (acting, directing, plot, characters, lighting, sound, etc), even if each individual criteria is broken down further with their own extensive description or criteria on how to score it.

13 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I know that the three siblings shouldn't have been making jokes and playing games with each other as if all was normal. Maybe it was more the dialogue that they had to work with was poor. It just didn't seem natural, to me, even for a season that was meant to be unnatural. Something I had also noticed in last week's episode with the dialogue between Jon and Daenerys.

You say there is no chemistry between Kit and Emilia, but I think it is the material they are working with that is causing it, coupled with the fact we all know this relationship is being forced upon the show. Last night, the exchanges between them in the caves seemed a bit more natural, also when she asked him for advice on her next move. I just can't fathom the idea of the two of them ending up with some romantic scenes. It's going to be so forced and contrived.

 

Yes, dialogue has been one of the weaker facets of the show since Season 1. There has been moments of good dialogue, but also a truckload of mediocre to very bad dialogue.

As for the writing in general, it has definitely declined since the earlier seasons, so yes, I believe the main actors have worse material to work with now in general. The material could also certainly be making some of the acting appear worse than it actually is.

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

It was, as you say, a great episode. Definitely the best of the season so far.

I agree for the most part about what you say about the dialogue, but do you not think the Arya arriving in Westeros and her banal conversations with Sansa and Bran (poorly written and poorly acted out) slowed down the pace momentarily? It definitely peaked again quickly after that, but that section was boring.

I have a real feeling the Starks in Winterfell are going to be the boring arc of the season. We have a great character like Littlefinger there, who is being wasted following Sansa around and now smiling weird smiles in Arya's direction. They need to get the life back into LF, because he is the only thing that could save the story at Winterfell, as Sansa, Arya and Bran have zero chemistry.

 

Zero chemistry? After like one two minute scene between Arya and Sansa, then another two minute scene with the 3 of them in the Godswood?

I thought there was good chemistry between Maisie and Sophie. Both actresses performed that scene perfectly in my opinion, although it could have been written much better.

There was less chemistry with Isaac, but that's partly because of the way Bran is now written. He's basically a God-like being, all seeing but has lost touch with his humanity in many ways.

Arya is written differently nowadays. She is less of a free spirited tomboy like the early seasons and more controlled and calculated, way less prone to emotional outbursts and her manner of speech is more blunt. Basically, she uses the least amount of words she needs to in order to make her point, similar to the Hound or Jaqen Hagar. She's no longer the excitable, free spirited chatterbox of season 1.

The reunion with her and Sansa was great. It was awkward, but at the same time it should have been awkward. The two sisters were never that close and they had been separated for years and both had suffered and been messed up a lot in that time. The way that conversation played out was fitting.

As for boring, that would have been the useless conversations with Missandei and Davis or the non-existent chemistry with Emilia and Kit for a forced romance the writers will shove down our throats constantly for the rest of this season and well into next. I'd take those Winterfell scenes 100 times over the cringeworthy ones with Jon and Dany.

1 hour ago, Rhollo said:

Because the Tyrells aren't good fighters, according to Olenna. It's a pretty stupid explanation, but it's the one the writers gave us.

We should all be used to stupid explanations from the writers by now. We dont have to like them or accept them, but by now they shouldnt exactly surprise anyone.

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

To be fair to Hallam, the Nymeria scene, while cool, wasn't at all clear.

I'm pretty sure the point is that she realized that Nymeria can't go back, but also realized that she's not like Nymeria, and that's what "Not you" meant, so she can, so she's going to carry on to Winterfell. (And once you get that, the fact that Nymeria has built a new pack, but Arya hasn't, is even more confirmation that she should go home.)

But the scene itself didn't tell me that; I only read it that way because it seems from everything else (even without the preview or spoilers, but obviously they confirm it) that she's carrying on to Winterfell. Taken in isolation, I have no idea how I would have read it, but it may well have been the same way as Hallam did.

Also:

Well, that's rarely a good assumption to make with this show.

Lol fair point. Teleportation seems to be commonplace now.

i also agree the Nymeria scene wasnt clear. I interpreted it "that's not you" as referring to Nymeria not being able to go back to being a companion for Arya, but also Arya perhaps realising that it may not be easy for herself to go back either. That doesnt mean shes not going to try though.

This is Arya we are talking about, shes not going to give up on something and change her mind because it may be tough.

She made the decision to go to Winterfell based on new information presented to her. I couldnt see Arya just changing her mind on a whim after making that decision to then go back to Kings Landing unless something new and major happened that warranted her going to KL over meeting up with family.

2 hours ago, hallam said:

How do you know? She decided not to kill Cersei and go back to Winterfell. Then she met Nymeria and realized she couldn't go back to her old life.

I know because of spoilers and also because its obvious. Arya couldnt have got to KL that fast and in the preview for next Mondays episode it shows Arya on a horse overlooking Winterfell.

Do you really think Arya decided to go to Winterfell after talking with Hot Pie, changed her mind after seeing Nymeria and decided to go to Kings Landing instead but then miraculously ends up near Winterfell??

Or is it more likely Your assumption Arya changed her mind about going to Winterfell after meeting with Nymeria is incorrect and she is actually still going to where her family is??

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

I am not even sure Dany was the most beautiful woman in that throne room.  I would find it hard taking my eyes off the woman announcing all of Dany's titles.

Yes, Nathalie Emmanuel is gorgeous. Emilia Clarke is beautiful, but I think Nathalie is even more stunning.

13 minutes ago, hallam said:

  Hide contents

What happened the last time a serving wench got a speaking part?

 

That wasnt Arya. She is not in Kings Landing.

And numerous servants and handmaidens have had minor speaking parts throughout shows history. 

I gave it a 6.

I thought the Dany/Jon scenes were awkward and poorly acted. Kit and Emilia both so wooden had basically zero chemistry.

The Varys/Mel scene was ok.

Tyrion and Jon scenes were good.

Cersei and Jaime scenes were awkward and horrible. Jaime is basically her puppet now and lost any semblance of his own character arc. Cersei, despite Lena's great acting, is just a character who has overstayed her welcome. She should have been killed off at end of last season or start of this. How she is still alive is incomprehensible.

Cersei and Ellaria/Tyene scene was too long, but very good and all 3 actresses did well.

The Bran/Sansa reunion was weird but still enjoyable. 

The dialogue was still meh and some of the writing awful.