~DarkHorse~

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  1. I agree. Jon is my favourite character, so it pains me to say it, but post episode 2 he has been portrayed as a terrible leader, let alone ruler. He was not a king once in any of his scenes with Daenerys. He was just an individual with a fancy title, to give him equal footing with Daenerys. The main problem is that the Northerners were alienated from him and vice versa. Yes, Daenerys proved herself to him, but only to him. There should have been other Northerners to back him up. This was an important diplomatic mission for the North. Where were his soldiers to protect him? Why did he not bring a Northern Lord or two to give him counsel? He only had Davos, apparently (who is not a northerner). He never sent a raven to Sansa once, or even stopped by Winterfell on his way to Eastwatch and then back South again. He pledged himself to Daenerys because of his feelings for her, as opposed to the politics of the situation. The North was not involved in this at all. Only him. He also went on a reckless mission that he knew could get him killed, but failed to tell the North or set up any plans for what should happen if he dies (e.g. will, heir, demands), which could potentially plunge the North into instability. He was King in name alone this season. When you view him as a representative over thousands of people, instead of an individual, then he is a selfish and reckless jerk, who does not take his position seriously. It is a real shame because in the books, Jon's ADWD arc showed that he has the wits and pragmatic skillset to be a good ruler. He is capable of being harsh and manipulative when he needs to be (see: forcing Gilly to switch her kid with Mance's) and he is capable of negotiating with a ruler by going toe to toe with them and getting a good deal himself (see: his dealings with Stannis). Instead, the show has stripped away his political nuance and reduced him to underdog morally pure Ned Stark junior, with wicked sword skills. He is supposedly a worthy King because he is a good guy and impressive individual, as opposed to actually being an effective leader that makes the best use out of the situation he is in and the resources around him.
  2. I admit the set up for KitN Jon on the show is pretty poor. However, it is likely that he will become KitN in the books, through Robb's Will coming into fruition. I don't doubt that either Bran or Sansa (I lean towards Bran) will be the endgame ruler of the North, but if Jon leaves the Night's Watch in the books, then I don't think he will be taking a backseat to Bran or Sansa being the leader (especially, when the Long Night hits). It is Jon, like Dany who GRRM has put on a leadership arc, gaining experience in governing. He will probably be KitN for a time, I imagine. Bran is endgame KitN material, but within the series, I think his arc is about being the three eyed raven. Although, I'm sure the books will set it up better, with Bran and Rickon supposedly being dead and no one (including Jon) knowing. But I would put money on Jon becoming KitN/LoW in the books.
  3. This. Jon screwed up big time by losing his head and going after Ramsay, but Sansa withholding knowledge on the Vale army should not be overlooked. If the Vale army had been included in their plans from the start-even just as an option- the battle would have gone allot differently, and less lives would have been lost. Sansa was the only one with any info on the Vale army. You cannot blame that on Jon. He made it clear that more troops from the Tully's or North was no longer an option, then he asks her what she would do....and she still remains silent, despite having an obvious solution.
  4. I am disappointed in the shows execution of the battle, as well. (Based on what we know so far, I might feel differently when I see it play out on screen). People keep criticizing Jon, but I think Sansa comes across as worse, with her secrecy over the Vale army. At least we can understand Jon's grim perspective, based on what he knows. He is in a tight corner, with the odds and time against him. There is little more he can do at this point. His biggest problem is that he is vastly outnumbered, and cannot rely on the North for more troops. They sent out letters and got few replies. As Jon said, "If they have not answered now, they are not coming," he is right. With the possibility of bad weather screwing them over, or Ramsay running out of patience, he cannot waste time trying to find more troops. The obvious solution is the Vale army, yet he knows nothing about it, all for the sake of drama. This is in Sansa's hands, not Jon's. I imagine, they want to give Sansa something to do, so they will portray the Vale army as her saving the Stark forces. Instead, it actually reflects poorly on her. Withholding that information to begin with was a bad move. Or maybe, they will have Jon shrug off the Vale army and go at it alone regardless, making him look like an idiot. Then, it will be Sansa who saves Jon. (The show have not been very good at showing empowered Sansa, so making Jon look bad to prop up Sansa, seems right up their lane. As long as Jon gets to swing a sword around, his worth is there.) The show could still make this work, but I am not counting on it. Perhaps, Sansa does actually tell Jon about the Vale army and they are part of Jon's plans. Jon will use his forces to lure Ramsay onto the Battlefield, distracting him long enough for the Vale forces to arrive. Because if Ramsay knew about the Vale army, he would siege, rather than fight a battle he can lose. Keeping the Vale army secret from Ramsay, would actually make sense as a strategic plan in this scenario. Jon cannot afford a siege. But drama can still be added by having Jon's army lose their heads and charge into battle earlier than expected, due to Ramsay provoking them (RIP Rickon). Things start getting desperate, the Stark forces are almost wiped out and it looks like the Vale won't come, but they do. In this case, the Vale 'rescue' would be a relief for Jon because they did come (albeit late), not a shock.
  5. They could try, but the Lord of Light only brings back those who serve a higher purpose in the upcoming war. That is unlikely to be Rickon, unfortunately. But after her success with Jon, it would be strange if Jon and Davos don't consider having Mel try to resurrect him.
  6. If they are flayed, they won't be recognizable anyway. I think they will be identified by Ramsay pointing out who they are, not Jon or Sansa recognize them.
  7. So, I guess Littlefinger is Gandalf in this episode and Jon is Aragorn. Tormund can be an oversized Gimli
  8. Earlier in the year, WOTW confirmed that it is known characters on the crosses. They also said that one of them is not Rickon. Edd is now the face of the NW, it won't be him. There needs to be someone, other than extras to meet Bran at the Wall and be our POV when it falls. That is Edd. His story is bigger than being an unnecessary victim. Besides, there will be another victim that will trigger a strong reaction in Jon, Edd is not necessary. I think the options are: Osha- A symbolic warning towards the Wildlings fighting for Jon. Also, a grim reflection of Rickon's fate. Glover- A symbolic warning towards anyone that still has sentiments towards the Starks. Glover turned Jon and Sansa away, but he did say that he could get in trouble just for meeting with them. Stannis- A symbolic warning towards those hoping to defeat him (Ramsay). He defeated Stannis, and he wants to showcase that. It would also trigger Davos. However, this one does seem a little unrealistic, as lots of time has passed since Stannis actually died. The body would be poorly preserved. Shaggydog- I'm not sure if a wolf is on one of the crosses. But I would not be surprised to see Shaggydog used as a trophy in some way (a fur cloak, his head on a spike etc.) It would be a callback to Robb and Grey Wind.
  9. I don't think Jon will campaigning for the Iron Throne, instead he will try to unite as much of the realm as he can against the White Walkers. I am guessing that he will have half of the realm (The North, Riverlands and Vale) under his command, through Littlefinger and Sansa/Bran, and the Brotherhood without Banners will join him too. He already has the Wildlings (or what will be left of them after The Battle of the Bastards) as allies against the White Walkers. In the trailer, we hear Tormund say, "I though he was the man who would lead us through the Long Night..." I think he is talking about Mance, but carries on to say, "I was wrong, it is you." This has yet to happen. I think it will happen when Jon is crowned as KitN in episode 10. Tormund (representing the Wildlings) will declare for Jon as their leader, alongside the Northern Houses, setting the theme for Jon being the one "to lead them through the Long Night." This is why I don't think Bran will become KitN when he comes home next season, or Sansa. They are setting up Jon as the Aragorn figure, that will kick start the realm into action against the Real War. He needs to be KitN for that to happen, not merely taking a backseat as military leader for Sansa or Bran. But instead of being Jon Stark, he might eventually be forced to use his Targaryen lineage to further his influence. This is where Littlefinger and Bran comes in, forcing him to take up the mantle of being someone who has a claim to the Iron Throne. This way, Daenerys has a chink in her plan for 'taking back what is hers' because half of the realm are already rallying behind this other guy, who claims to be her nephew. Jon will incorporate some of (f)aegon's plot on the show, so things aren't so straight forward for Daenerys. But I think Jon and Dany will work together, after some initial uncertainty of each other. I hope this is what they are setting up. It would be good to have some Jon vs Dany rivalry. Littlefinger participating in this would make sense, it could further his influence and pit him against Varys, once more.
  10. Because it would fall into "The North Remembers" theme, rather than being the man who betrayed Ned in the first place and handed Sansa over to be abused by Ramsay, saving Winterfell. It would also be in character for Manderly to do this, if we were following the books example.
  11. Not necessarily. Aragorn needed the Rohan forces to save him at Helms Deep before going on to become a King. He was not the face of the battle, or the victor but a man who performed heroic deeds in battle, fighting alongside other men and inspiring courage. That is what gained him respect. Also, King Joffrey (and Baratheon/Lannister hold on the Iron Throne) was saved by Tywin/Tyrell forces at Blackwater. The 'saved by incoming army at last minute' trope is used allot in this story, in both Blackwater and The Battle of Castle Black. It looks like it will be used in this Battle centric episode as well. It is so predictable and over used, to be honest. Rather than having Jon's forces and the Vale forces working together from the start, we need the drama, the sense of despair and defeat....because you know, it is the only way to create tension. But it means that Jon and Sansa will be in Littlefinger's debt. I'm sure Littlefinger will take advantage of this.
  12. I really don't see how GRRM can develop a romance between Jon and Arya in the current timeline, with only two books left. With the 5 year gap, it could have worked. In that case, Arya would be a young women when she meets Jon again, rather than a girl barely grazing puberty. Added with the "little sister" stigma, the young age of Arya would mark any attraction Jon has to her as not okay. The fact that she also idolizes him, puts power in Jon's hands, allowing him to take advantage of that. He would be the adult and her the child. It would be unhealthy. In the original plan, Arya and Jon also spent more time together. Most of their story consists of battling their feelings for each other, allowing the romance to develop, rather than taking a U-turn. In the books, Jon and Arya still have much to do before reuniting and I doubt their stories will be explicitly tied to each other when they do. Their relationship is so pure. I would hate to see it tainted with incest. I don't care if they are really cousins, they constantly think of each other as brother and "little sister." It would still be mental sibling incest, if not actual blood incest. I really hope GRRM doesn't take this path, it would be one incest too many in my opinion. It is at a Jaime/Cersei level of creepy incest, rather than a Dany/Jon, or to a lesser extent Jon/Sansa, due to the age difference and close relationship they share as siblings. Each to their own, though. Everyone has their own interpretations and it is fiction after all. I won't shame anyone for rooting for this. I just really can't, unless Arya is older.