LiveFirstDieLater

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    “I have come to lead you to the other shore; into eternal darkness; into fire and into ice.”
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    “Hope not ever to see Heaven. I have come to lead you to the
    other shore; into eternal darkness; into fire and into ice.”

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  1. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    The lemon tree is nice, and clearly harped on, but isn't even necessary to make the connection. I'm certainly not the only one to propose this though I've been saying it for years even on this forum. I had suspicions about Jon, Dany and Tyrion early on, but the theories have clearly evolved with lots of input/support/debate with others. Dragonstone doesn't seem to be a days sail from King's landing, but rulers I suppose... either way it isn't a midnight flight if you leave in the morning. I could go through his point by point but most of it is addressed above. I'm not saying Viserys and Rhaella didn't go to dragonstone, or that she didnt die in childbirth, but we get no witnesses to the events there besides Viserys. Stannis saying he was blamed for their escape doesn't indicate that anyone saw a baby who was taken with Darry and Viserys. I don't think Dany remember's Viserys in the House with the red door. It's ok we can disagree here. I think those early quotes are intentionlyy meant to be read a certain way, but there is no denying the whole chapter is filled with Dany's doubt. You are quoting Robert saying Dany and Viserys were easy to get to, but that could be at any point over the last many years. Then you say they were well protected, I don't know what you are talking about here or how that fits with your quote? It doesn't make sense to me. The "Stormborn" means nothing. It is how she is announced at the meeting with Drogo, and presumably how she had been announced during the rest of her travels... almost as if someone was carting her all over the continent, from city to city, showing her off to reinforce the truth of this story. And trusting the citadel teachings is frankly hysterical... Anyway I'll be back around and try to do a better job explaining... but happy friday all
  2. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    Ok so grammer aside, do you really not see the problem with what you are saying here... And say what you will about your fictional diagnosis, Braavos isn't a place you associate with hot sweet smells. On the one hand you say she was never treated like a princess, on the other you are saying she lived in a rich place (so rich it has a lemon tree growing outside in a climate that clearly doesn't support such trees), she had servants etc. The Sealord of Braavos has a Palace where many like to make up justifications for the lemon tree being part of his garden or something... but ya nothing like the Princess life? How does this make any sense... And come on, jewelry is literally the best thing to steal. if you are worried about it being "tracked" wouldn't you just melt it down? And do the servants of the Sealord just loot and pillage at every rejeim change? seems odd... unless she wasn't staying with the Sealord, then we're back to the lemon tree... (this is setting aside the grass, Presumably the servants are not the same as the ones to leave dragonstone, I'm asking what happened to the four loyal men? The story as a whole, the way it is given to us is either intentionally full of holes or just remarkably poorly thought out compared to the rest of the series, I'm gonna go with intentional until we get more books that say otherwise. Also, per Tyrion in Darry:
  3. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    "A princess", it's almost like she hasn't been called that since her vague memory of being called it in the house with the red door by her protector. And later we see how she remembers being called Princess in the house with the Red Door. She had forgotten what it was like! She doubts her own memories! This is how her character is introduced. While we don't have any other descriptions of Willem Darry at all, besides "a good man and true". Our only point of comparison is Aemon, who was sick and dying in Braavos. And through Sam we get descriptions that seem the opposite of "hot, moist, sickly sweet odor". As you point out it is the paragraph after the "She did not remember Dragonstone either." that she continues the Viserys described story about leaving the house with the red door, and it's book-ended by her remarking, she's never seen one of the Usurper's knives (they didn't exist). To me, these little odd comments by her peppering the first chapter are screaming for me to doubt the story. Especially when thing's Viserys tells her turn out to be proven false later. And even this: Which as you point out, is the best quote to try and prove Dany's Red door was in Braavos, uses "they" (admittedly it sure reads like Dany and Viserys at first) and Viserys is nowhere in the paragraph. In fact, if we read it literally the "they" here : is Dany and Ser Willem. Here: "they" is literally the servants. Maybe it is the servants who were put out, but that's not here no there and frankly is a weak argument and seems like nit-picking. The last paragraph "they" is defined in the paragraph as her and her brother. But the point remains, her physical descriptions (memories as opposed to story she's been told) never mention Viserys (she had her own room) and seem to conflict with his story at almost every opportunity. Honestly though, the servants stealing the money is pretty suspicious too. So much for the 4 loyal men! Not to mention that they didn't take Rhaella's crown. Of course Viserys had that, so if Dany was robbed and cast out of the house with the red door, then shipped to Braavos to be "educated" by Viserys it still fits. I'm not suggesting the marriage pact was a fabrication. Just that there is no mention of Dany. But the fact that Oberyn Martell, of all people, seemingly showed up and everyone else who signed it promptly died, screams suspicious to me. As you said, the marriage pact seems to have been signed, it's the circumstances surrounding it that I'm curious about. It does seem to be the only other event we can place near Dany being cast out of the House with the Red door. For instance, I don't buy the "your mom didn't want you too"... because she wanted you close? Where is she again? In fact, it doesn't seem like Illyrio would want the marriage fulfilled anyway since we know he had his own plans for an heir to the Seven Kingdoms, and sent Dany into the Dothraki Wastes never expecting her to return (and had no problem letting Viserys follow). Of course living Dragons changes everything. ETA: Even better, I liked that Tyrion even found tapestries of all the Targ Kings in the basement of Darry... literally being hidden away.
  4. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    I wouldn't be writing on this forum if I just wanted cheerleaders... I enjoy the debate, and theories and our understanding of the story is only improved by testing our views and ideas against the mob. but just for the record, I'm going to bat here for R+L= J then D fire away, it's all in good fun
  5. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    As a matter of fact I've read the quote, and you'll notice the difference, I hope, between that, the story I believe she is regurgitating and her actual memories. The difference is in the senses, the smells and visual descriptions that don't match the story. Things harped on in her memory: The smells of her childhood, the hot sweet smell of her sick old bear, the red door, the lemon tree. Being called Princess and my lady, interesting that this is what she remembers being called by her protector fondly later, yet at the start never felt like a princess before... And that's not even getting into the fact that her little itinerary there doesn't explain a memory arriving in Braavos. It even ends with the bit about the usurper's knives (we know to be false) and her admitted doubt about it. I do think there is reason to doubt this story as I've tried to show. And I really struggle trying to understand why it's hard to believe a garrison on the verge of mutiny wouldn't see the baby, if a live one was born alive at all. It seems reasonable that Rhaella was really pregnant, that wouldn't be faked for months. But if she died in childbirth, Darry might well burn the body and flee in the dark of night. There isn't any reason to believe there were any witnesses left behind. We don't even know when the people in Westeros found out Dany's name, we only see things years later. The story about her birth may well have only trickled back from Essos later. As for Quentyn, he wasn't just a frog now was he? Haha and while I'm sure there are theories about how he's alive or some secret Daario/Benjen love child, anything' possible I guess, I think your point misses the mark. More relevant would be, I don't think the marriage pact signed by Oberyn and Darry and witnessed by the (now presumably dead) Sealord, that doesn't mention Quentyn, is any evidence that Quentyn was in Braavos at the time... that's the equivalent logic. And I'd go out on a limb and say he probably wasn't there. A marriage pact that doesn't mention Dany, and is introduced into the story only after Viserys is dead is at the very least suspicious. The fact that everyone who signed it is also dead, doubly so. And just because it's probably worth saying, I don't expect everyone to suddenly agree, lord knows I've been wrong before, but this is a forum that should encourage discussion. So thanks for the debate/critiques/ideas/laughs
  6. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    That is, of course, how I took it at first, just a metaphor... But if she remember's the red door its almost like she's on the verge of remembering more, who she was... a name. It's not that she never knew, it's that she was young and ended up being educated by an abusive Viserys as she ran around from place to place being told she was someone else. She has nightmares about how abusive viserys was, and remembers his rage. One example, Viserys telling her she is a dragon not a fish, can be found in her one 'sailing into Braavos' memory I sited above. She has been forced to obey, it's literally been beaten into her "who she is" and what to do.From the very beginning we see how abusive and controlling Viserys is, in fact Dany 1 starts: Her being told what to do, and she obeys... then at the end of the quote its like she is questioning her own past, questioning her own memory. And just a little bit further: "wove his webs of dream"... of course at first I took this as just returning to Westeros and retaking the throne... but her first chapter is just full of this stuff, it's only after her wedding that she begins to stand up for herself. Her first Chapter ends with: Dany doing as she is told.
  7. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    Here is always the thing that cracks me up... go back through this thread or other threads and look at the textual evidence (not your ideas about what happened or who knows what) and compare them to an R+L=J theory based on textual evidence... it is incredibly comparable... your agruement sounds just like if I said Jon has to be Ned's Bastard because look at all the character's that say so! There is just as much wolf imagery in Danny's chapters as there is dragon stuff for John, if not more... and yes the mystery of a bastard's parentage is going to be a question, but guess what, so is an exiled orphan's parentage when she is constantly told to "remember who you are"...
  8. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    It is only "they" not the parts of the story she's been told by Viserys and that don't make sense... aka the red house being in Braavos... Viserys doesn't appear in any of the actual memories of the house with the red door. She doesn't ever have a memory of being thrown out, you are making the easy mistake of conflating the actual memories she has and the story she's been raised to believe... I might be wrong, but I doubt it. We have no other sources for the information despite your proposition there about Stannis... Darry was gone by the time he arrived, Viserys and maybe a babe with him along with the nursemaid and 4 loyal men. With Rhaella dead, and whatever Maester (if there was one on Dragonstone) missing, there is no evidence or reason to believe anyone saw the child before the escape and there are no other witnesses available. These are facts, we can speculate that it would or wouldn't be reasonable for others to have seen a baby, but there is no textual evidence for it. Everyone is basing their knowledge of the "Stormborn" story on hearsay... Meanwhile, the Ned fever dream ToJ quote is about Viserys and Rhaella and takes place before the birth anyway so I don't know what your point is here... The marriage pact in Braavos doesn't mention Dany... I don't know what the hell you are talking about Oberyn though, I don't think you understand the basic premise of the theory, I'm not suggesting it was a fake Darry that signed the pact... I think you are dismissing the idea out of hand since these comments show you clearly don't even understand what is being proposed... the lemon tree is honestly a nice clue but not at all required for the theory. And yes, I've been putting this idea, or some variation, out there for many years... each and every book, story and chapter has simply reinforced my belief.
  9. Mistaken PoV

    If we could have gotten rid of the Sansa Pov that would have been fantastic... frankly I found even the Frog Martell arc more interesting. Littlefinger would have been a much more interesting view in the Vale or another Royce, or even Mya Stone... and frankly it's not a very interesting plot line for me. I know the vale still has a fresh army, but I'm just waiting for disaster to strike them. Besides Mya Stone I don't think there are even any other characters in the vale I like let alone care about. Maybe if I'd ever met Jon Arryn I'd care, but I didn't, and I don't. Dorne is the far more interesting player and seemingly way more tied up in the plot. otherwise everything Sansa saw could have been seen through another Pov since she provides no interesting insights or observations... not to mention just being an incredibly pitiful and unlikeable character. but number one wish for a PoV would be either Varys or Illyrio...
  10. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    So, and admittedly I'm just trying to fill in blanks so it's speculation, I'm suggesting that whatever Ned's original intention or plan didn't work out. Dany's original guardians didn't make it till the series start. Instead she ended up in Illyrio's power at some point in her early childhood, likely when she left the house with the red door. All Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known. Dany 1 Game Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.*(Viserys)* Dany 1 Game Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door… Dany 6 Game She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfume of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more. Dany 6 Game The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish." Notice the Green Sail from her memory of arriving in Braavos (even though Viserys's story has her growing up there tangent leaving...). It turns out there are not a lot of green sails mentioned. "Lysa Arryn's dead," Lord Godric said, "murdered by some singer. Lord Littlefinger rules the Vale now. Where are the pirates?" When Davos did not answer, he rapped his spoon against the table. "The Lyseni. Torrent spied their sails from Littlesister, and before him the Flints from Widow's Watch. Orange sails, and green, and pink. Salladhor Saan. Where is he?" Then a chapter later... It was not the sort of arrival that Davos Seaworth had anticipated when he'd set sail with Salla and his fleet. All this had seemed simpler then. The ravens had not brought King Stannis the allegiance of White Harbor, so His Grace would send an envoy to treat with Lord Manderly in person. As a show of strength, Davos would arrive aboard Salla's galleas Valyrian, with the rest of the Lysene fleet behind her. Every hull was striped: black and yellow, pink and blue, green and white, purple and gold. The Lyseni loved bright hues, and Salladhor Saan was the most colorful of all. Salladhor the Splendid, Davos thought, but the storms wrote an end to all of that. This in conjunction with the seemingly random capture of one of Illyrio's ships by Saalador Saan does raise my suspicions... could they be in league? Or I'd even go so far as to say that they could be one and the same man!
  11. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    “What was wrong with them, couldn’t they see? Inside the tent shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.” Dany 8 Game Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot towards a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Danny Clash 4 "You will drink," Dany said, cold as ice. "Empty the cup, or I will tell them to hold you down while Ser Jorah pours the whole cask down your throat." Sorry! There are just so many good quotes... in fact I do think "sweet" is associated with lies and "bitter" with truth. Great Tyrion quote you used showing it! If we enlarge that House of the Undying quote, there is actually more for you, but not sure how helpful interpreting visions and cryptic answers is, since I'm sure everyone and their secret long lost siblin will disagree on the meaning. But eh, why not: “I have come for the gift of truth,” Dany said. “In the long hall, the things I saw… were they (5)true visions, or (4)lies? (3)Past things, or (2)things to come? (1)What did they mean? …the (1)shape of shadows… (2)morrows not yet made… (3)drink from the cup of ice… (4)drink from the cup of fire… (5)mother of dragons… (6)child of three “(6)Three?” She did not understand. Dany asks 6 questions in addition to the six answers she got... it seems to me that besides the last "three?" for which she got he answer before she asked he question... the questions actually apply to the rooms in reverse. But I realize this is just me speculating... Rooms: 1. 4 Servitors crawling/molesting a beautiful woman (what did they mean? The shape of shadows) 2. A iron crowned, wolf headed, king at a feast of corpses, looking at her with ‘mute appeal’(things to come? Morrows not yet made) 3. The House with the red door and Ser Willem (past things? Drink from the cup of ice) 4. The Skulls of Dragons looking down on the Mad King (this is an assumption, but logical) (lies? Drink from the cup of fire) 5. Rheagar looking down on ‘Aegon’, mentioning the PTwP and the Song of Ice and Fire (true visions? Mother of dragons) (Three? Child of three) 6.1 Pyat Pree (who crumbles into a wormlike creature) 6.2. The Splendid Hall of the Undying 6.3. The Heart Room
  12. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    Ned "could" have done a lot of things, I don't dispute that... He could have taken the throne at the end of the rebellion, or taken the red keep when Robert dies... I'm just tying to use his own words to point out what I think he did. My guess is that Dany's grey bear of a protector was the missing maester from Winterfell, Walys Flowers, but that is totally speculation. Illyrio's interest in (f)Aegon, and Viserys interest in the throne both aline with not wanting a child of Rheagar around to muddy the claims to the Iron Throne. The issue with Dany's story is that it does not match up with her own memories. Cersei and her children are not exactly the same as a child of Rheagar... but there is a solid parallel there. I'm not going to stand judgement on Ned when I don't have all (or even half?) the facts... just trying to piece together a story that makes sense.\ Ok remember that "bitter cup" reference... and I said "a cup of ice"? without doing a whole HotU breakdown... maybe I'll come back tomorrow... I just want to point out that at the end she asks: What did they mean? …(1)the shape of shadows… (2)morrows not yet made… (3)drink from the cup of ice… (4)drink from the cup of fire… (5)mother of dragons… (1,2,3)child of three She went through the following rooms on her way in: 1. 4 Servitors crawling/molesting a beautiful woman 2. A iron crowned, wolf headed, king at a feast of corpses, looking at her with ‘mute appeal’ (I think most people think this is the Red wedding, but the only wolf noted as silent(mute) is ghost) 3. The House with the red door and Ser Willem 4. The Skulls of Dragons looking down on the Mad King (this is an assumption I guess, she doesn't recognize him, but logical) 5. Rheagar looking down on ‘Aegon’, mentioning the PTwP and the Song of Ice and Fire 1. Pyat Pree (who crumbles into a wormlike creature) 2. The Splendid Hall of the Undying 3. The Heart Room So the last 3 rooms are all versions of the warlocks/undying, but the rooms before seem to line up with the answers she receives... What do you know, a cup of ice is the house with the red door. Her Stark Legacy I would propose. The cup of fire, next room, is the Mad King, and dragon skulls. Her Targ legacy. AND Rheagar looks at her, and the title of the series is said. (PtwP=Mother of Dragons?) Anyway, gots to run but happy to come back, love the subject.
  13. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    Wait the wife/fiancée of Robert had another dude's kids and he's pissed so Ned says they should flee to Essos... ya totally different? Rheagar and his children are even mentioned.
  14. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    In Dany's very first chapter she describes Westeros: Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stones rose amidstmagnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords. The Dothraki called the land Raesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. “Our land,” he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. “Ours by blood rite, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers.” And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. Then in her "wake the dragon" dream: She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door. " . . . the dragon . . . " smell home = flowered plains great stone houses = towers of dark stones green fields = green hills arms = banners The Dragon Remembers even if she does not Remember who you are! Red Door = Home = Westeros and no lemons in sight.
  15. The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

    Sounds like a nice option to me, just not what Ned himself says one should do to escape Robert... see above