LiveFirstDieLater

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    “I have come to lead you to the other shore; into eternal darkness; into fire and into ice.”
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    “Hope not ever to see Heaven. I have come to lead you to the
    other shore; into eternal darkness; into fire and into ice.”

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  1. As stated above, wherever the ice used in the wall came from, ice is never salty... although if you really want to play devils advocate, while a wall built out of ice blocks wouldn't be salty, if the saltwater was frozen onto/into/forming the wall, thn when it melted it would dissolve the salt again as it became liquid. But why would ice melt be warm? Blood is salty though, and warm, and the weirwoods always seem to be crying red tears... And for me the kicker is why would men build a Wall without gates... And my question is do you think there's a man/child/entity in the roots beneath the gate? And do you think the gate was built before, during, or after the construction of the wall?
  2. Aaaand my long post with half a dozen quotes disappears as this stupid site logs me out instead of posting... maybe I'll come redo it at some point. Or simply a major plot point like: The Syrio/Jaqen faceless man was there to kill Ned, and discovering this will be the reason Arya leaves the House of White and Black... When, in theory, the faceless man entered the black cells, then carted up with Yoren, Kings Landing and the Red Keep were on lock down. Also, why does Varys so insistently tell Ned he's a dead man while at the same time actively trying to get him to take the black, and seemingly succeeding? All while changing his face and having authority over the black cells.
  3. So somebody else pointed out that you quoted the show (albeit a great line!), so instead I'll just point out a few quotes from the book. Interestingly, I'd focus on that story Syrio tells of becoming first sword, I think it's more in line with the Faceless Men than you give it credit. Both Syrio and Jaqen both refer to Arya as a boy when they first meet. This isn't remarkable in itself, since some other characters are also fooled by her disguise once she's on the run. However, Syrio does it presumably knowing full well who she is. In addition, he tells a whole story about how he became first sword in which the moral is that he "sees" what is there, and the example used is the gender of the cat. Jaquen meanwhile appears to go along with Arrya's disguise, but later shows that he knows who she is. Not only that, he does so while talking about "seeing", much like Syrio's Cat Story. Syrio's Cat story: "On the day I am speaking of, the first sword was newly dead, and the Sealord sent for me. Many bravos had come to him, and as many had been sent away, none could say why. When I came into his presence, he was seated, and in his lap was a fat yellow cat. He told me that one of his captains had brought the beast to him, from an island beyond the sunrise. 'Have you ever seen her like?' he asked of me. "And to him I said, 'Each night in the alleys of Braavos I see a thousand like him,' and the Sealord laughed, and that day I was named the first sword." Arya screwed up her face. "I don't understand." Syrio clicked his teeth together. "The cat was an ordinary cat, no more. The others expected a fabulous beast, so that is what they saw. How large it was, they said. It was no larger than any other cat, only fat from indolence, for the Sealord fed it from his own table. What curious small ears, they said. Its ears had been chewed away in kitten fights. And it was plainly a tomcat, yet the Sealord said 'her,' and that is what the others saw. Are you hearing?" Given that Syrio repeatedly, and presumably intentionally calls Arya by the wrong gender, this should raise big red flags. When Syrio first meets Arya: It was the third time he had called her "boy." "I'm a girl," Arya objected. "Boy, girl," Syrio Forel said. "You are a sword, that is all." He clicked his teeth together. "Just so, that is the grip. You are not holding a battle-axe, you are holding a—" "—needle," Arya finished for him, fiercely. This gave me pause... Syrio gets the gender wrong (intentionally), tells Arya that he/she's gender doesn't matter, she's "a sword", then tells a story whose moral is seeing the truth in which he's remarkable for correctly stating the gender of a cat... almost like she needs to give up her identity to master the lesson. Jaqen first meets Arya: "A man does not choose his companions in the black cells," the handsome one with the red-and-white hair said. Something about the way he talked remindedher of Syrio; it was the same, yet different too. "These two, they have no courtesy. A man must ask forgiveness. You are called Arry, is that not so?" "Lumpyhead," said the noseless one. "Lumpyhead Lumpyface Stickboy. Have a care, Lorath, he'll hit you with his stick." "A man must be ashamed of the company he keeps, Arry," the handsome one said. "This man has the honor to be Jaqen H'ghar, once of the Free City of Lorath. Would that he were home. This man's ill-bred companions in captivity are named Rorge"—he waved his tankard at the noseless man—"and Biter." Biter hissed at her again, displaying a mouthful of yellowed teeth filed into points. "A man must have some name, is that not so? Biter cannot speak and Biter cannot write, yet his teeth are very sharp, so a man calls him Biter and he smiles. Are you charmed?" First off, Arya thinks that Jaqen's voice reminds her of Syrio... I'll come back to this eventually as I believe it is similar to Ned identifying Rugan as Varys in the Black Cells. Also, "you are called Arry" now jumps out at me since it seems to indicate an immediate recognition in Jaqen that it is a disguise. Along with "a man must have a name" it's almost like he's referring to both Arya and himself in addition to Bitter. In retrospect, Jaqen's introduction does seem to reference the Faceless Men. "A man" must have some name, but nobody on the other hand does not... also there is a nice double meaning to the "are you charmed?" since while it seems to refer to Biter it could just as easily refer to Jaqen himself and his current disguise. Then they meet after she freed him: Jaqen H'ghar took his hand away. The cellar was black as pitch and she could not see his face, even inches away. She could smell him, though; his skin smelled clean and soapy, and he had scented his hair. "A boy becomes a girl," he murmured. "I was always a girl. I didn't think you saw me." "A man sees. A man knows." So here we see Jaqen seems to imply he knows who Arya is and has the whole time. Not only that, "a man sees" is remarkably reminiscent of Syrio's whole "seeing" story. Then Later before the Weasel Soup: "A man sees. A man hears. A man knows." She regarded him suspiciously. Had the gods sent him? "How'd you make the dog kill Weese? Did you call Rorge and Biter up from hell? Is Jaqen H'ghar your true name?" "Some men have many names. Weasel. Arry. Arya." And here we have Jaqen straight up saying he knows who Arya is. But "some men have many names" seems to me to really be talking about himself in answer to her question. Of course we know now that he's a faceless man and does in fact take on many names. But, I would suggest that we know another name Jaqen has already used, Syrio Forrel. So in an attempt to be clear, I believe "seeing" as stated by Syrio, is in fact just a disguised lecture of Faceless Man philosophy. In fact, the boy/girl "you are a sword" line also seems to be in line with the Faceless Men as well. "You should. Stay, and the Many-Faced God will take your ears, your nose, your tongue. He will take your sad grey eyes that have seen so much. He will take your hands, your feet, your arms and legs, your private parts. He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter His service must give up all that makes them who they are. Can you do that?" He cupped her chin and gazed deep into her eyes, so deep it made her shiver. "No," he said, "I do not think you can." To enter His service you must give up being a boy or girl and become just a sword. TLDR: I tried to summarize the similarities between Syrio and Jaquen, as well as point out the seemingly intentional disconnect between what Syrio/Jagen see and what he/they say, especially in regards to gender. Of course this is only one side of the story, there is also the practical question of could Syrio and Jaqen be the same man, as well as the motive for doing so. I will try and address these issues in my next post, along with another cat story, this time told by Varys. cheers
  4. How has nobody mentioned that Jaqen Hagar and Syrio Forell are both the same faceless man?
  5. A raven is not a crow... "Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. Bloodraven doesn't even understand the question, and answers remarkably similarly to Sam. Are all dogs a reference to him too since he supposedly turned into a one eyed dog? AND NOTICE HOW THE DOG HAS ONE EYE? "He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that Iloved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."
  6. Wait what? Grey mists might indicate a glamor, or a disguise... but why do you think it indicates Bloodraven? Mel's glamor of Mance is "grey mist", Ned's allies in the ToJ dream are made of grey mist, Braavos is veiled in grey mist... and that is just off the top of my head. I'm curious, dubious, but curious... Of course I don't think Bloodraven was the Three Eyed Crow, and I'm not convinced Bloodraven can speak through the Weirwoods, since he explicitly says he can't...
  7. Let me preface this by saying it's wild speculation... but: I always liked the idea that the "3 treasons" were committed by Dany rather than against her... But what if it is even more specific than that, what if these are treasons against the laws of the old gods... something I only considered after a noticing all the similarities between THotU and Bloodraven/the Children's caves beneath the weirwoods. The case could be made that Dany has committed some crimes already and may commit more. For the sake of arguement, I'll use the first set of visions, since I believe the descriptions and visions are in reverse order (i.e. Fires=bride of fire, mounts=slayer of lies, and treasons=daughter of death): Viserys's death by molten crown - kinslaying - treason for blood - both as the nature of the crime and because Viserys was killed because of his threat to shed blood in the Dothraki holy city. Maybe Rhaego w/flaming horse banner - slavery - treason for gold - MMD was a slave and was taken to be sold off, Dany claims her as her own slave, wether out of vengeance or spite she murders Dany's unborn child either intentionally or as collateral damage. Maybe Rhaegar saying Lyanna's name as he dies - incest - treason for love - since I think they are brother and sister, and expect they get together eventually, it seems decidedly plausible
  8. I'm not going to judge, Varys was thirsty
  9. haha I'm familiar with the heresy... and always liked that early on Westeros is referred to as the Sunset Kingdoms. also worth noting that a good prophesy appears fulfilled before it actually is (and/or could be construed as multiple meanings) and I don't doubt Danys blood, nor even that she's of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, just her nickname... stormborn. Oh, and who her parents are... Always a pleasure
  10. Great call... I don't care how many traditional informants he does use, there is nothing traditional about cutting the tongues out of kids and using them to spy. Also, he can, you know, change his face... to the extent that Ned rubbing it feels stubble and isn't fooled, nothing normal about that disguise...
  11. But what order the fires, mounts and treasons are arranged amount these three sets of three isn't necessarily so straight forward... 3 dead princes, and I would argue Dany is at least partially responsible for each death... of course I'm sure you'll object to my laying Rhaegar at Dany's feet, but since I believe the whole point of these visions is for her to literally remember who she is, the child of ice and fire, it shouldn't be that surprising since Rheagar died with a woman's name on his lips, Lyanna. I'm not sure why Dany would see Stannis, or how he will be at all relevant to her. I would suggest that this might not be him, after all, what glows like sunset? Dawn. And who has blue eyes? The dead, and the Starks... The banner could well be the mummer's dragon, faegon, but then again I'm not so sure Dany is who she appears to be... and doubly unsure why the common people would be chearing. The great stone beast breathing shadow fire is of course a difficult one given how unclear the imagery is. I lean toward it being Tyrion myself, but it's all very speculative. The vision is of her silver... her grey horse with a white mane... Lyanna was famous for riding horses, stark colors are white and grey, and Dany, with little to no experience was jumping bonfires on her first ride. Hmmm, a corpse with bright (blue?) eyes? Of course I first thought it was a greyjoy, then I thought it might be Arya wearing a man's face, now I'm not so sure it isn't someone come back from the dead... And the blue rose growing from the wall of ice seems like another Lyanna reference... of course usually interpreted as Jon. The last six visions before the final one to which she succumbs represent: 1) Trying to save Drogo upon whom she was nearly totally dependent; 2) her longing for the sheltered days of her early childhood; 3) her dragons hatching; 4) the punishment exacted on the wine seller, the man sent by the usurper to kill her and her unborn son, the action that convinced Drogo to begin preparations for an invasion of the Seven Kingdoms; 5) a prized beast hunted by Dothraki; and 6) the wise women of the Dothraki paying her homage. The first two of these six visions show Daenerys's early dependence on others. The second two show her dragons hatching, and Daenerys beginning to act the way the blood of dragon would be expected to act. The third two show what appears to be happening at the end of Dance, where Jhaqo finds her in the Dothraki Sea (we can associate Daenerys with the white lion since she wears the pelt of the hrakkar), and perhaps, what will happen in Winds, when Daenerys, the mother of dragons, and Drogon, the stallion who mounts the world, unite the the Dothraki into a single khalasar. So, no surprise, I read this a little differently: 1) The Shadows in MMD's tent were a giant wolf and a flaming man... fire and ice 2) the house with the red door, again... 3) only death can pay for life, and the birth of dragons 4) the usurpers "knife", remember that contrary to her story, this was the first and only assassin Robert ever sent... and one who wasn't expected to succeed. 5) Tyrion much? 6) Line of Crones laid bare... the crone is one of the seven, she lights the way with her golden lamp, and represents wisdom. Ten thousand bloodstained hands... sounds like the leaves of a Weirwood to me... remember where she is, and the Weirwood like trees surrounding the house from which the shade of the evening is produced. And she wakes up with the corpse(like?) undying seemingly trying to consume her... Anyway, I'm sure I've been anything but clear and concise, but it's been fun as always!
  12. don't forget Rheagar's squire, Richard Lonmouth, the knight of skulls and kisses, Lem Lemoncloak... And potentially anyone using magic, looking through a Weirwood's, into a fire, or whatnot.
  13. I believe this has more to it: "I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?" . . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . . . . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . . three? She did not understand. In the long hall Dany sees: 1) woman molested by sevitors 2) feast of corpses 3) house with the red door 4) King of ashes 5) The Prince and his Song 6) Pree, then Magnificent Undying, then the heart room ...she asks: 1) true visions? 2) lies? 3) past things? 4) things to come? 5) what did they mean? 6) three? ... the Unying answer: 1) shape of shadows 2) morrows not yet made 3) cup of ice 4) cup of fire 5) mother of dragons 6) child of three And my conclusions: 1) true vision, the servitors molesting the beautiful woman, this is the shape of the shadows, and I suspect it is the sevitors who run the House of the Undying and not the warlocks... this idea is reinforced by the three visions of the undying at the end. 2) lies, the feast of the dead, morrows not yet made... unlike most I do not believe this is the Red Wedding. First because that event has no bearing on Dany at all, and because there is no reason for Rob to look to her with appeal. Second, it is "silent appeal" and only one of the dire wolves we've encountered is explicitly and conspicuously silent, Ghost. I believe this is a vision of Jon, not Rob. Also, if Jon were to somehow make a miraculous recovery (tongue in cheek) from being Ceasered then his being among the dead would be a lie Dany slays him from... I mean saves him from! 3) past things, the house with the red door, drink from the cup of ice. I believe this vision of her one memory of a "home". I will try not to get to sidetracked with lemon tree theories, but let's say I believe there are significant discrepancies between her memories and the story of her childhood we've been told. The cup of ice being a reference to Starks and bitter exile, but also preservation of life. 4) things to come, King of Ashes, cup of fire. Things to come, but it's the Mad King? Seems like a good objection at first, but then I realized the vision isn't about him, it's about the plan to burn kings landing in a blaze of wildfire. Dany doesn't even recognize Aerys (she recognizes Rheagar who she's also never seen however) and there is every reason to believe the wildfire is still there and fire consumes. 5) what did they mean? mother of dragons... I believe Rheagar was looking at Dany when saying there must be one more, and that being he mother of dragons makes her the prince that was promised (though maybe not the only one). I believe that Rhaegar like Aemon and the other Targs dreamed of the return of dragons. 6) three? Child of three... She sees Pree devolve into a pale wormlike creature (like the root in Bloodraven's eye anyone?), the false vision of the Undying as magnificent kings and queens, then finally the heartroom. Taken with the first vision of the servitors, and the remarkable number of similarities between the house of the undying and Bloodraven's hollow hill (again trying not to get to sidetracked), I believe that the servitors are an Essos version of the children of the forrest, and are the ones running the show in the HotU. And I didn't even get to the fun trinities yet...
  14. I love how this question pops up every so often... and always devolved into sighting a 20 year old AIM conversation. while I usually hate SSMs since I believe GRRM is often intentionally vague and/or misleading... this one is apperantly pretty definitive. Many of us have wanted it to be Rheagar talking about Jon for years... And the timeline does in fact leave time for this, provided Jon was conceived at Harrenhall and wasn't born at the time of Ned arriving at the ToJ. Because there would be time for one more pregnancy which would end with Lyanna's death at the ToJ after Ned's arrival. Alas, it seems originally at least this was meant as a vision of Elia. Rheagar of course clearly being wrong about TPTWP and there being one more, since Jon and Dany make at least two more... It may help explain Rheagar running off with Lyanna however, given that this would have been when the Maesters informed Rheagar that Elia could not bear more children. Anyway, it's a shame that one 20 year old answer ruins the speculation, especially if it somehow ends up to not be true, and/or GRRM changed his mind.
  15. Oh yes, an old idea... And were these the same 13 men as the last hero and his companions? and of course, who was the wall really built to protect?